"We Owe to Our Sons What We've Given Our Daughters"

[HereSince1628]

{This might give you ants in your pants, but it's among Psychology Today's top 25 reads for February 2013}

Boys are not men; they are children, and they need our attention now.

Published on February 13, 2013 by Mark Sherman, Ph.D. in Real Men Don't Write Blogs

http://www.psychologytoday.com/collections/201302/top-25-list-february-2013/4-we-owe-our-sons-what-weve-given-our-daughters

I’m on the mailing list for a Washington, D.C.-based non-profit called the Boys Initiative, for whom I edit a blog: Boys and Young Men: Attention Must Be Paid. On Sunday, February 3, my e-mails included a press alert from the CEO, Dennis Barbour, informing us that that day’s New York Times Sunday Review had a major article on “why boys are falling behind.” And yes, when I opened my copy of the Times, there it was. You really couldn’t miss it. On the front page of that important section, with a graphic taking up more than half a page, was “The Boys at the Back,” by Christina Hoff Sommers.

The 1800-word piece started out discussing an important new study I had already heard about -- re boys’ grades in elementary school being negatively affected by their behavior -- and went on to mention data, very familiar to anyone concerned about this issue, showing the large gender gap in colleges, one which is particularly acute for minorities. “Black women are nearly twice as likely to earn a college degree as black men,” Sommers wrote. “At some historically black colleges, the gap is astounding: Fisk is now 64 female; Howard, 67 percent; Clark Atlanta, 75 percent. The economist Andrew M. Sum and his colleagues at the Center for Labor Market Studies at Northeastern University examined the Boston Public Schools and found that for the graduating class of 2007, there were 191 black girls for every 100 boys going on to attend a four-year college or university. Among Hispanics, the ratio was 175 girls for every 100 boys; among whites, 153 for every 100.”

I sent the link to this piece to friends, including one with whom I had lunch a couple of days later. He was shocked at those numbers, which shows, once again, that the problems of boys and young men are still, amazingly, barely on the national radar. But, as feminists told us back in the late 1960s, often the personal is political. My friend has two daughters and one granddaughter; I have three sons and three grandsons.

In 2000, Sommers wrote one of the first major books on the problems boys were having, but her relative conservatism about feminism got in the way of a widespread readership among liberals – just those people who might make a real difference for boys. The book was titled The War Against Boys, and though her issues with feminism were evident in it, her data showing boys clearly falling behind girls in school and beyond was strong and should certainly have been convincing. Many feminists might not have cared for the messenger, but there was no question that the message was an important one.

<snip>

When it was the reverse, when men clearly outnumbered women in colleges, the women’s movement looked at this and countless other areas in which women and girls were on the short end of things, and worked hard to change it. Why has the same thing not happened for our boys and young men?

<snip/more>

[gollygee]

1. I think the problem here is NCLB and standardized tests

Schools force kids to sit still at desks much earlier than they used to, so that they can learn the information needed to do well on standardized tests, which are incredibly important for funding. Boys mature a little bit later than girls, so the boys have a harder time with sitting still at the desk. Put 12 years of that together, and you have boys not doing as well at graduation time and not going to college as much.

I don't think the standardized tests are good for girls either. Girls are just able to sit still and put up with it better. I think it would do all kids a lot of good if teachers were allowed to use more creativity and these standardized tests were not created as the most important thing in the school universe.

So I think this was an unintended consequence of NCLB, and not caused by feminism. I do think it needs to be addressed, for the sake of all kids.

[HereSince1628]

2. The author doesn't see that, he goes on to say:

I truly believe that the focus strictly on girls that began in the 1990s and has only begrudgingly made room for boys is one of the principal reasons that boys are struggling the way they are today. The “girls’ movement” didn’t care if a child was rich or poor, white or minority. If the child was a male, he was excluded. We are paying a high price for this.

Though I don’t have answers, I desperately hope that parents of sons can be supportive not only of their own children, but of all boys and young men -- the way so many adults were supportive of girls and young women when they needed encouragement and support. This will mean, as educators like Michael Gurian tell us, not only supporting your own sons (and grandsons), but other boys and young men in your community; and I would add that it means beginning to lobby our elected officials too, to join in.

Soon after President Obama took office in 2009, he established a White House Council on Women and Girls. Soon afterward, major supporters of boys’ interests, led by Warren Farrell, pushed hard for a parallel council for boys and men. A suggested name for the organization was the Council for Boys and Men, and the proposal to establish it ended with these words:

“A White House Council on Boys and Men can…provide leadership toward helping parents and our culture teach our sons that the facade of strength is a weakness. It can provide leadership to help us help our sons row on both sides of the family boat—so our daughters may have equal partners. It can co-ordinate the nation’s best efforts to parent, mentor, and teach each of our sons to discover who he is. It can end the era of boys and men as a national afterthought. It can provide leadership to raise young men our daughters are proud to love.”

------------
on September 12, 2012, Tom Golden wrote “Our report met with interest at the White House—but three years of effort have resulted in nothing.”

[gollygee]

4. I'm telling you what I see when I volunteer at my kids' schools

The kids have to sit still at a desk starting in kindergarten. There isn't a lot of time to physically move around. It is very hard on the boys. They get into trouble a lot more than the girls. And it is the same year after year. The kids don't move around as much as they should be able to. It's really not good for any of the kids, but it is particularly hard on the boys. Some school districts are even getting rid of the second recess that most kindergarteners have, and a lot of school districts are moving to all day kindergarten, which involves a longer period of time sitting still at a desk. Kids that age desperately need time to move around. The more that kind of thing happens, the harder it will be on all the kids, but the harder it will be on the boys in particular.

I want to add something here. I think the biggest problem might be that kids sometimes get labeled when they're young. So you have a boy kindergartener who is having trouble sitting still, which is entirely developmentally appropriate for that age, but he's labeled as a problem. That label can follow him and create problems for him in future grades. By 6th grade, he can sit still, but he's still known as the kid who has to get sent to the principal's office all the time, and therefore he gets treated differently and isn't getting the same education as other kids who don't have that label.

[Squinch]

85. You're making a very astute judgment.

The model that has evolved for kindergarten in the last decade or so is completely inappropriate for the neurological development of a 5 year old. Many of the skills they are now supposed to master in kindergarten are not appropriate for another two years. And the movement, play, coloring, cutting with scissors and playing "in and out the window" and "duck duck goose," all of which create very very important developmental skills (like self regulation, spatial relations, sensory organization, body awareness) have been abandoned. These skills are never acquired appropriately.

And then we wonder why children can't self regulate and have behavioral issues when expected to sit at a desk all day, and why they have no understanding of spatial relations, fractions, and relationshipe when they grow older.

All of this neurologically inappropriate regimentation at 5 is very much encouraged by the educational and test prep powers that be.

We're all going to pay for this in the future.

[panader0]

127. I heard once that boys have eight year spans and girls have seven year spans

So that a seven year old girl will have the maturity of an eight year old boy. At 14, girls have the maturity of a 16 year old boy. Then 21 to 24, etc. Whether or not this is true is debatable, but I have two sons and two daughters, and have definitely seen it in action.
Girls mature faster than boys, not necessarily physically, but mentally.

[seabeyond]

130. generally, physically also. it is a hoot in middle school watching the tall 5, 6, 7 grade girls

and tje shorter boys. then 7th and 8th and freshman year the boys start shooting up.

i had an oldest boy, though that always matched all the girl criteria and not the boys. i told him at 4... you are going to be so happy as an adult. was a little adult at 4

[Butterbean]

137. I know that this will be a problem for my youngest.

When we were looking at which school to put him in (we have an obscene number of magnet schools here, it's ridiculous), a HUGE factor was whether or not he would be sitting at a desk all day or would be free to move around.

It's hard, because while I want him to be able to have the freedom and flexibility that I know his energetic little personality and body need, I also know that practically speaking, he's going to have to master "sitting at a desk" eventually. It's a delicate balance, and one that me and my husband have struggled with and are still struggling with. We still haven't decided on which school we will be sending our son to in the fall because we are so torn. Year round or traditional calendar? Montessori or more traditional model? I'm about to pull all my hair out. It's like I'm putting him in a private school, there are so many choices. I know I should be thankful (and I am, don't get me wrong), but we are just so afraid of making the wrong choice. I want him to love school and for him to blossom there. Bleah.

[seabeyond]

139. he's going to have to master "sitting at a desk" eventually.

Last edited Tue Mar 19, 2013, 01:02 AM - Edit history (1)

i had the same issue. and i always wanted montessori style. it is so much more free flowing which is what i am more into. but, i had the same issue as you. and i chose the structured style.

i later found out this son i thought needed the freedom really needed the MOST structured and routine we could find. lol. totally flipped me out. he had second grade teacher that was fine for a lot of kids but a horror story for him. she handed out lots of papers and kids got done at will. kids wandered. chatted. my son was a mess. a total mess. i sat in class one day, and not surprised at all why he was failing. well, not failing. anyway. we did most of the school year at home, at night. that year i told principal his 3rd grade teacher had to be structured and routine. all the way. and that is what he needed. but, was fun to see the issue, resolve, and learn.

[Butterbean]

143. Really? Is/was your son really physically active and stuff?

Just picking your brains here. Mine is ridiculously active, and chatty chatty chatty. He's unfortunately got my mouth. :/ I was forever getting "talks too much" on my report cards as a child. He is a really bright kid, very into hands on stuff like mazes, puzzles, and math. I just worry.

One of the places we're considering is really really REALLY "earthy" and does project-based learning like Montessori, but we're wondering if maybe it's too unstructured for him for the exact same reasons you just stated.

[liberal_at_heart]

145. It helps if they can teach the kids how to sit instead of just expecting them to and then punishing

them when they don't. My son is autistic. He is fidgety and when he gets stressed he needs to decompress. He learned in occupational therapy to do little things like quietly tap the underside of the desk so that he didn't make giant bodily gestures. He is always fidgeting some part of his body like his hands or his feet, but he can sit at a desk. He was chewing on his mechanical pencil but now he chews gum. Sometimes, he gets up and walks down the hall or reads quietly to himself or during lunch he may go find a quiet place to be by himself. These kids don't just know how to sit at a desk. They need to be taught how. He just asked me if he can have a palm sized hand held stress ball. I think that is a great idea for him. Of course I never would have given him a stress ball when was younger, but now that he is older he knows how to properly use a stress ball. Another kind of stress ball he enjoys is those big round yoga balls. Of course this probably would never work in his regular classrooms, but at home it is great for him. He sits on it and bounces. He leans on it. He bends over it. These kinds of exercises are great for autistic kids. In fact he use to have one in occupational therapy at school. I remember when he was in elementary school in his special education class there was a small trampoline. He would use that thing everyday. He loved it.

[Butterbean]

146. My oldest is autistic, and in a self contained AU classroom.

He's not able to be mainstreamed, but yeah, he definitely struggles with doing his work in his class. My youngest is much more focused than his older brother, and able to sit still for longer periods of time if it's something he's interested in.

[seabeyond]

162. he has always been active. and he likes his down time. he was fun because he would read,

then go outside and do active, then do other kids, then alone time with clay, then to the computer, then off to something else. he would only spend so much time before he found something else.

we have never been big on tv.

he talks. that is what he always got in trouble for also. same as me. he was writing 100 x's. all the time. meh. lol. now teachers appreciate it. if no one is gonna answer the teacher know they will always get something from him.

he has something. i never had him tested. he was never norm. couldnt do loud noises. took a while to process what was being said. couldnt do sequential thinking. he cant think with chaos around him. noise became a buzzing sound in his head that would take over everything. some would call him ditzy, lol. i call it a fuzzy brain. his kindergarten teacher called me in to watch during a class and we talked about the behavior. totally different in class than regular. he literally shut down. she bought me an excellent book and the different thinking brains. his third grade teacher was excellent. she was getting her masters on these issues with kids and studying so we did a lot of watching during that time. trying out different things. teacher would see him wandering away, in mind, she would simply touch his shoulder as she continued to talk. bring him back. always up front. when stimulation became over whelming for him she would put him in the closet, lol. not punishment. never. it was a space of quiet for down time.

my son is more macro thinking than micro. more history and english and poilitcal, social subjects than puzzles and math. loves strategic planning games.

[tblue37]

153. Montessori is great. nt

[JDPriestly]

78. We still don't acknowledge women's math ability nearly enough.

But we push all our children too fast, too far in academic subjects right now. They need to be active, more active than we allow them to be at this time.

Has the ratio of male to female grade-school teachers changed in the last 50 years? That might be one factor. More male teachers might make a difference for boys.

Also, do we make too much out of competition in sports competition? Is that distracting the boys in some cases?

Someone should try to find out whether boys are more upset by divorce than are girls. That could be a factor. I'm just brainstorming now.

[MattBaggins]

123. The whole bit about boys suddenly being ignored is a huge pile

of MRA nonsense. There is a problem with boys slipping behind and encouraging them in school but there was no silly evil womyn cabal behind the simple fact that once women were allowed to shine, they surprisingly enough, did.

[seabeyond]

125. this is my issue with this theory. education was no different 3, 4 decades ago when men were the

ones graduating from college significantly more than women.

there was not the cry that boys needed to be taught differently. they sat. quietly. or had a paddle taken to them.

yet today, now that more girls are graduating, it is feminists fault.

[lumberjack_jeff]

14. Boys do better on standardized tests, yet get worse grades.

The tests are not the problem. The problem is that boys are graded on factors other than apprehension of the subject matter.

http://heraldnet.com/article/20100530/NEWS01/705309875

[gollygee]

17. No, it isn't the test - it's the classroom structure that is a response to the test

Kindergarten looks a lot different now than when we were kids. Kids sit still and work on worksheets. Boys mature a little later and have had a harder time adjusting to that new classroom structure. Boys have a harder time in the classroom, and I think sometimes get labeled as trouble, and I think that label follows them and contributes to them not receiving the same education.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

23. not black boys, who seem to me a focal point of this article

they do not do better on standardized tests.

[liberal_at_heart]

3. feminism is not the reason boys are falling behind

The problem is the way our school classrooms are structured. Our class rooms are overcrowded, the curricula is too cram packed. The teachers have no time for personal attention and don't have the flexibility needed to allow boys to be more physically active in the classroom. Boys have to be able to move. The way things are structured now boys are punished for moving around too much and having a hard time focusing because they need to move. This can be changed, but our public schools are underfunded, overcrowded, and too rigid. We need full funding and we need leaders who are willing to change things up a bit.

[HereSince1628]

6. I may be dense, but I don't think this is strictly about feminism

the issue, especially for minority boys, is to provide them experiences that will promote in them a sense of equal access to opportunities that will have great impact on their lives.

The anxiety in this article, which I won't defend--because I just don't know enough to even start that effort, is a common one in the USA.

We see the pie as being of fixed size. When we start cutting it up, when we make a point to sell it to some and not others, we create a situation that exacerbates the anxiety.

In this case, the popular response to that anxiety pushed this article into the top 25 reads for Psychology Today.

The nation, rightly or wrongly, is worried about how the slices of the pie are being apportioned.

[liberal_at_heart]

8. this is only one thing that is wrong with the public schools system

You cannot address this and countless other problems without addressing the biggest problems which are underfunding, overcrowding, cram packed curricula, state standardized testing, and poverty. There are inner city minority boys who are attending private school who are succeeding. We have to have the same resources for public schools that private schools have.

[HereSince1628]

9. Yes and all that undermines a genuine sense of possibility.

IMO, encouraging kids to believe there are authentically good possibilities is a big deal.

Hope is powerful but so is despair.

[liberal_at_heart]

11. yes, where there is no opportunity there is no hope.

Where there is opportunity, there is hope. We have to give all of our students, every single one, opportunity and hope.

[LuckyLib]

27. Yup. The education system is broken (and I speak as a long-time educator).

Until we acknowledge it, little will change.

[seabeyond]

5. personally i think all of society is attacking our boys and without a lot of work in the home front,

where the boys itnerests are best served, boys have a tough time figuring out how to walk life. i think we have created such a fucked up world for our boys. women are all over it with our daughters. and it is tough for our daughters. but it is easily recognized what the issues are and addressing them, clearly showing the negative. and groups every where that support the parent with daughters.

boys do not have the same thing. the very worst of what is being shoved down boys throats are being cheered and encouraged without that massive support to counter the ugly. the are only getting reinforcement to the worst that is being created for the boys.

[Lionessa]

42. And yet these boys, when they come of age and are still boys...as presented, and I agree...

still get better pay, better bennies, more likely to be elected for public office, more likely to be CEOs....

Sorry if I've little sympathy for them.

[seabeyond]

48. they are also pretty lonely, messed up, hurting themselves in many ways. it is not healthy.

i will be the first all over the privilege, ect... but in retaining that privilege (a backlash against feminisms success), men have set up the younger generation in a world of hurt.

[phylny]

110. I work mostly with boys, since I'm a speech-language pathologist, and most of the kids with

disabilities/disorders are boys.

My non-scientific point of view is that many mothers tend to coddle their boys and can't stand to hear them cry or get upset, give in to them faster, don't hold them to the same standards as they hold their daughters to, and don't expect the same level of behavior they expect from their girls. Yes, boys are more active, but that's not an excuse to let them be wild. I could be wrong, but it's behavior I see over and over again.

It's not that I have little sympathy for them, I just know a better way, as the mother of three girls who have grown to be successful women.

We kept them busy in sports, we held them to high standards, we helped them but didn't do their work for them, gave them age appropriate chores, we never let them get away with less than their best, we never sided with them versus the teacher when the teacher was right, when they "forgot" homework at home, it was tough luck, and we told them the only way they were going to succeed was through hard work. They got jobs in high school (though not during the school year - in the summers) and they worked during college as able.

I acknowledge we were fortunate that we both had good jobs and could provide for them, and we were extra fortunate to always live in places that had great school systems - things many parents don't have.

[liberal_at_heart]

112. so if a boy learns at a slower pace we should just force him to learn faster?

Sorry but that doesn't work. My son's school has been trying to do that for three years now. It does not work. What is wrong with changing our school system to adapt smaller class sizes, fully fund the schools and adjust the curricula to account for the fact that all individuals learn differently and at different rates? I make my son work as hard as he is capable of learning but I will not push him so hard that it makes him feel stupid and makes him want to drop out of school.

[phylny]

113. I reread my post and I don't believe I said anything like that.

Did I?

[liberal_at_heart]

114. are you not saying that we just don't expect enough out of our boys?

Am I lowering my expectations because my son learns at a slower pace? Well I guess in comparison to kids who are capable of learning at a faster rate the answer would be yes. But I believe all kids are individuals and should have expectations set based on their abilities, not compared to what the other kids are doing.

[phylny]

121. We are speaking in generalities, or at least I am.

Of course there are some children who are going to learn at a slower pace (I am an SLP - I work with kids with disabilities, so I kinda know about different paces of learning).

Speaking in generalities, and in my experience, I see many parents of boys who let behavior slide and who have low expectations starting early on because their boys are boys, yes. All parents? No. All boys? No. Lots of them? Yes. It's just my experience, it's not scientific.

It is extremely common for me to walk into a home for early intervention and have mom or grandma say to me, "He'll never sit on the floor and work with you. He's all boy." I let them know that part of my job is to help him have short periods of attention to a task, to learn perseverance and patience, to learn to look at a book (because I and my fellow SLPs in my office were kinda horrified to learn that research shows if a child isn't attending to books by age 4, they are going to be behind in reading and may never catch up), and that he would have plenty of time to get his wiggles out.

And, as I said before, I also hear, "I just can't stand to hear him cry!" as they give in to undesirable behavior again and again. Well, if he's crying because he's not getting his way all the time, and you give in, at some point we have the discussion that one day, Junior's going to be 5'11" and 170 pounds. Best to take care of the discipline now while you can still toss him over your shoulder

Just my experience, and it would be interesting to see if the way the children in question have been parented has anything to do with educational outcomes (in addition to class size, etc.)

[pnwmom]

183. You only raised girls, and the same methods worked with them all. Lucky you.

The way you describe raising your girls sounds very reasonable and most parents I know attempt a similar style; however, parents with multiple children often discover that the same methods that work for some children don't always work for others.

I, for example, congratulated myself for knowing how to feed my oldest because I offered her a balanced choice of healthy foods and she happily ate them. I found out when I had my next child that it isn't always so easy. The same thing happened with potty-training. I thought I was an expert potty-trainer, with easy successes following a simple reward system (using stickers on a piece of paper) at about age 2 - 2.5. My third child taught me that I knew nothing. I had just been lucky the first two times.

I suspect that you simply didn't have enough children, and certainly not enough boys, to discover the limits of your own methods.

[phylny]

200. Lucky me indeed.

I've also treated hundreds of children as a professional. I use the same methods, according to the children's needs. Luck has little to do with it

[pnwmom]

201. If you're an educated professional then you must know

that children often behave differently outside the home than they do inside the home, no matter how skilled the parents are.

Outside the home they typically show the best behavior they're capable of, but at home -- where they feel safe, and where they're often tired after a day at school -- they don't always exhibit their best behavior.

My pediatrician, who also treated hundreds of children (and was a mother besides) said that the most important thing, in assessing their development, was to know how children behave outside the home, because that shows what they've learned and what they're aiming for -- even if they don't always show their best side at home, to the parents they love and trust.

http://www.today.com/moms/angel-school-devil-home-why-do-kids-save-their-worst-1C7398201


We’ve all heard that kids “save” their worst behavior for their parents. But is that actually true? Or just something we tell ourselves so we feel less guilty?

Totally true, said Dr. Heather Wittenberg, a Maui-based child psychologist. Young children in preschool or daycare tend to stay on a sort of neutral, energy-saving setting throughout the day, she said. And when they get home, it’s “safe” for them to let loose, unleashing the stress of the day.

“They’re struggling mightily to learn all of these complicated social rules and expectations, and can only hold out for so long,” she wrote in an e-mail.

SNIP

But acting out after pickup isn’t just a toddler phenomenon (as any parent of a ‘tween can attest). Your first grader may smack his baby brother for the slightest transgression when he comes home from school. Your 13-year-old may transform from a sparkly, social butterfly into a sullen grump within two minutes after getting in the car.

[liberal_at_heart]

202. I think the reason my autistic son misbehaved was because he has always seen home as a sanctuary.

Still does. Back before he knew how to voice his frustrations, and how to deal with his sensory issues he would refuse to do his homework and throw horrible temper tantrums. He has since learned how to do those things, so it is easier for him to do what is expected of him. But being out in the world is still very overwhelming to his senses and his emotions. He needs home to be a safe place to fall when he has been beaten up by life. Don't we all? There are still times when he just has had enough and needs some alone time to be quiet and calm down where no one expects anything out of him, and that's okay.

[pnwmom]

203. Absolutely. He trusts you more than anyone else in the world.

As you say, everyone needs a sanctuary -- although highly sensitive individuals like autistic people especially benefit from a safe place at home.

[phylny]

204. Not only that, I often tell parents

that kids will typically do things for me (things that we WANT them to do) that they won't do for their parents.

Why? They don't know how I'll react, and they're more wary of me. Will I yell at them? (No). Will I hit them? (Hell no!) It's frustrating for parents, to be sure.

[pnwmom]

205. Yes! And how many times did my sons try a new food because it was offered

by a friends' mother instead of me?

[Lionessa]

120. Oh my good point. I had a young (5-6 yo) that wouldn't keep his hands off my equip last

eve, the mother just kept whining at him, doing nothing about it. I finally calmly grabbed him by both arms and sat him firmly at the other end of the bench, told him stay and for the most part he did. But she was "helpless" against his misbehavior.

[liberal_at_heart]

172. this is why you're the professional

Children with disabilities/disorders don't react to traditional discipline like other children do. My autistic son use to throw horrible temper tantrums and would absolutely refuse to do his homework. It wasn't until the speech therapist was able to teach him to communicate better than he was able to voice his frustrations better rather than throw temper tantrums and the occupational therapist helped him use calming techniques to calm his body down. Things go much better after that. Now he self regulates which is something he had to learn and it took having a professional help him learn.

[pnwmom]

182. Good for you for doing everything you think is right. However, you only raised girls

and you sound awfully smug about your methods. IMHO, you are lucky that your girls were basically healthy. Many parents do everything right, but their children happen to have disabilities and or disorders that make raising them more difficult. And unfortunately, boys have a higher incidence of many disorders. (And are also more likely than girls to have both the highest and the lowest IQ scores.)

Keeping them busy in sports and holding them to high standards, etc., isn't enough to ensure success for a boy with both ADHD and dyslexia, for example; or a gifted child with significant autism; or OCD and the beginnings of bipolar disorder. Since you work in education, you must know that those kids are out there, and they need to be educated, too.

[ismnotwasm]

7. I can't stand Sommers usually.

But I agree with this, we are allowing our boys to fall behind, and why? For what? Not to be contentious, but bringing up gender expectation around the education of boys has led ginormous flame fests if the topic was rape, or rape culture and I understand this is different.

So what ARE we expecting of Boys? Sports before scholastics? Is it promoting girls over boys? Because there is a huge gender gap still in the sciences, hell in politics, I think the US is something like 70th for he number of women in lectern office. So how do we promote gender equity and not our boys slip away?

And it must be said, far too many young black men are in prison. Generational poverty and institutional racism contribute to this.

So this is a multi-layered problem and I absolutely agree we need to start addressing it now.

[JDPriestly]

80. Girls who are good at math have a tough time of it. You will just have to trust me on that.

Larry Summers' attitude toward women's abilities in math causes me to disbelieve anything he thinks about gender and academic performance. I don't think that gender, education and psychology are the areas in which he has expertise.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

10. are we allowed to have a discussion about the dysfunctionality of masculinity

we had that discussion about femininity and raised girls to change some aspects of femininity (focussing on careers not just husbands, being assertive, having better self-esteem etc).

however i wonder how a discussion lead by feminists on masculinity would go. i bet, not very well.

especially not at the intersection of masculinity +race.

[lumberjack_jeff]

18. No. n/t

[La Lioness Priyanka]

21. that's what i thought. nt

[Taverner]

44. Masculinity, just like Femininity, has been hijacked and defined by the Advertising Industry

Whenever your identity is defined by the "free market" only bad things can happen

[La Lioness Priyanka]

45. not just advertising, although i am sure that does not help.

[Taverner]

49. Advertising, the media in general

Our schools, which should be the great equalizer, shy away from the issue...

Churches love to seize on it as a method of social control...

What does it mean to be a Man? A Woman?

Of course the enlightened know it's the journey, not the destination that defines this...

[Scootaloo]

131. Advertising just distills and recirculates what society already believes

Advertising doesn't challenge or invent social norms - if it tried, the advertising would fail because it makes people uncomfortable. Sort of a cultural variety of the "Uncanny Valley"

But, take what they're already comfortable with, and give that to them in "pure" form (hard to put nuance into a 30-second ad space) and you've got yourself a working advertisement that reinforces the subject matter in the mind of the viewer.

[redqueen]

59. No. Men like Jackson Katz have been trying,

but they are attacked for 'saying something is wrong with men' or that men 'need to be fixed'.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

62. yup. jobs are changing, that requires staying in school longer and longer.

schooling is not just about standardized tests, although those are super important, school also measures typical performance not maximal performance,

women were fixed to a degree, as were attitudes towards women (both to a degree) but we don't have the same convo about men.

i for one would not bother, because really who needs the backlash? regardless of schooling white men are still having real world outcomes far superior to women and people of color, so i guess the impetus to have these conversations are also missing.

[redqueen]

66. Yes yes, excellent points.

We did go through a 'fixing women' phase and we are still going through it (e.g. ex quiverfull movement members).

And yes yes yes, your point about outcomes and the resulting lack of urgency is an excellent one. Men are starting to fall behind educationally. If that ever affects their incomes relative to women, maybe priorities will change.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

68. i think we raised our daughters differently

i certainly think my mom raised me to have different expectations and values than herself. At some point if outcomes change, we will probably do that for men. however without outcomes changing, why would we?

[JDPriestly]

82. I think boys and girls are different very early on.

I see that in my children and grandchildren. And I did not expect that at all. Of course it may be an individual thing. Does anyone else see very young boys as more active than very young girls? Or is it just the particular boys in my family?

[seabeyond]

91. no. i hear that often. i hate it. we had no expectation and we did not direct. allowing activity

and stillness in both sexes, i saw some kids more active than others. and it was not about sex, it was about personality.

example. i wrestled with kids when little. had niece in there, no holds bar with two boys. the other stood back. i could see she wanted to. but, she hesitated and didnt jumped in. i pulled her in, and she had a blast.

i literally saw no difference in play.

from youngest both boys read. oldest had to have quiet time with clay. stillness and in thought. miece never stopped and still does not. another niece is adhd like never sitting at a desk.

i was ultra active as a child.

i hate that pinned on the kids. one active. one passive

[lumberjack_jeff]

12. Why? Because we don't like boys as much. n/t

[The2ndWheel]

15. I'd say need more than like

But then people in general are needed less and less.

[leeroysphitz]

13. I think that many here are (sometimes not so) privately giddy about the failures of male children in

education and social institutions.

[gollygee]

19. Who?

I can assure you that you are wrong. Seabeyond, who gets the most of this crap, has two sons. She certainly doesn't want her sons left behind.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

20. really? you think people here root for failure of young black boys in education?

[leeroysphitz]

24. I KNOW some do and no, I'm not going to call them out and no I wasn't lumping you in there. n/t

[Sheldon Cooper]

29. Well, that's pretty chickenshit.

Make a statement like you did and then refuse to back it up. You got nothing, and you know it.

[ismnotwasm]

35. Wow.

[bettyellen]

74. oh bullshit. what a horrible accusation

[lumberjack_jeff]

25. No. Just the not-black ones. n/t

[La Lioness Priyanka]

28. yes, white men are always under attack. nt

[lumberjack_jeff]

31. a) you meant "boys" and b) you're the one who chose the qualifier.

c) your response proves my point.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

32. i drew the qualifier because the article focussed on black boys and so i did too. nt

[lumberjack_jeff]

34. The problem is more acute among black boys, but not unique to them. n/t

[boston bean]

109. What makes it more acute for black boys?

Is that allowed to be discussed or considered without you casting suspicion over the discussion?

[lumberjack_jeff]

133. 1) Race is a meaningful source of disadvantage.

2) Boys and girls raised without their biological father in the home are at risk. In addition to the behavioral risk, boys without a father in the home, nor any other adult male role models (i.e. teachers) have no template to identify with and pattern adult behavior upon.
3) Because of poverty, scholarships are more important to black kids. Since scholarships for girls vastly outnumber scholarships for boys, the gap in access is more acute than for whites.

[ismnotwasm]

38. What the hell Jeff?

This doesn't doesn't have to be this way. Are you, personally feeling attacked? I think can all agree we have a problem here, and yes gender and race and privilege play into it. As it has through history.

What would/will you do to help remedy this?

[bettyellen]

81. seriously Jeff? Instead of whining about feminists, men could and should learn a lot!

[lumberjack_jeff]

90. I'm serious about what I said. It sounds as if you read something else. n/t

[lumberjack_jeff]

88. No. I feel like my kids are being attacked. I'm mostly indifferent to personal attacks.

The OP notes that education is failing boys (true). A poster upthread said that some DU'ers experience schadenfreude when they read about the failure of boys (also true). LLP disagreed indignantly that we don't cheer for the failure of "young black boys".

I noted that this is an incomplete defense against the poster's accusation, to which she replied that I was whining about the plight of the bogeyman white men.

You're right - it doesn't have to be this way, but it is. "White men" (usually accompanied by an eye-roll smiley) is an all-purpose shield used to deflect conversations away from uncomfortable social justice topics.

There must be some way to elicit sympathy for boys. Maybe if I'd observed that some of the victims of an indifferent educational system are part of another in-group.

[liberal_at_heart]

92. this conversation seems to be just like the one about benevolent sexism and the Pope

the first and only answer is to completely demonize and exterminate the men. Some men do perpetrate crimes against women. We should always work towards teaching our boys to be gentle and respectful toward everybody. It does not make all men evil and we as women should never secretly cheer when men fail. Those men are someone's son, someone's brother, someone's husband. And now in this thread you have women who cheer the failure of children. This is not the answer for any of these problems. This is sad. I am proud of my daughter's success. I will not however sacrifice my son to some feminist alter. Equality means just that. Men are not superior to women, and women are not superior to men. We are all equal.

[ismnotwasm]

95. Hooookay.

You, I don't get.

[seabeyond]

116. where are these women cheering, you are talking about? nt

[fishwax]

166. "And now in this thread you have women who cheer the failure of children."

Where?

[ismnotwasm]

94. I don't use eye roll smilies.

You surprised me because I thought you'd be all over this. It's a complex issue; yes, I don't believe in 'white guilt' --unless someone has done something tone guilty of--but I believe in acknowledging white privilege or any other kind of privilege. I don't think it should be a distraction from a healthy discussion.

If we are failing our young boys, we need to speak up and speak out. Find out why and get proactive.

[lumberjack_jeff]

97. If male privilege trumped white privilege...

... black boys would not be even worse off relative their sisters than white boys are relative to theirs.

White privilege clearly exists. That's not the issue. The issue is that boys... ALL boys, gay, straight, white, black, are victimized by an indifferent educational system. Picking and choosing which kinds of boys deserve our sympathy (if in fact we offer any sympathy at all) is what bugs me.

They are kids, not pawns in some perverse and obscene socio-political agenda.

[ismnotwasm]

103. Ok I get it now

Still, the experiences and challenges of young persons of color and whites are going to be different. You're right, we can't tailor for everycontingency, but we can start talking, at least about solutions. (I'm not trying to throw little boys under the bus, I have three gransons.)

And the obvious one, proper funding of schools is the hardest one to get. I had a patient, a retired educater tell me that adequate and good social workers and counselors in every school would solve a lot of problems, because they would be able to indentify them earlier, and intervene quicker.

[seabeyond]

33. who would that be? i fight for my boys continually and for years have been putting up info

on our boys and men to embrace their authentic self. healthy, grounded,.... truly successful. not this garbage fake crap society feeds them. so, seeing that all my focus is on the health of man, who in the world would be cheering the failure of our boys?

without the success of our boys in health and balance, we will have absolute failure of our girls also.

one does not get to be without the other.

that is a crappy thing to say. just more garbage to already contaminate others.

[Lionessa]

43. Fair enough, I'm semi-guilty. I'm not giddy, but I got no sympathy either since

even with those stats and proof that boys aren't maturing... women are the second class citizens.

[liberal_at_heart]

51. It's a little harder to come to that conclusion when you have both a boy and girl as children.

My daughter is excelling at school. She gets excellent grades in math an science and wants to be a veterinarian, and I have every confidence she will be one. My son however learns at a slower speed than his sister and his peers at school. Because of the cookie cutter assembly line education system we have created my son gets horrible grades. I want both of my children to be happy, enjoy learning, get that good feeling we all get when we accomplish something, pursue their passions, and be whatever they want to be. I will demand that my son get just as good an education as my daughter received.

[Lionessa]

76. I have a boy and a girl, both grown now, but I do not find the same as you, both did just fine.

Both were skipped a grade in elementary, both graduated HS at 16yo, and both have good jobs. My daughter has chosen to go through to Masters Degree, my son plans to but wants to have time to try to be a pro snowboarder first.

Perhaps it's because I don't make allowances for gender. I expected and assured they both got it done, as it were. Or perhaps I'm just lucky in this regard.

[Lionessa]

79. Oh, and don't forget, should your son and daughter happen to choose the same profession...

your daughter will still be paid 72% of what he gets, et al.

[liberal_at_heart]

83. oh, my gosh you think I don't know that? You think she doesn't know that?

She also sees how much her brother struggles and wishes he had a better education. She does not begrudge her brother a good education because she wants to be successful. Are sisters suppose to turn on brothers now because they happen to be boys? Should sisters secretly hope their brother do poorly so that they can't grow up to be the big bad boss and deny women a raise?

[Lionessa]

84. I get it, I'm just saying that certainly mitigates any sympathy I might otherwise have for

our "poor" boys.

[liberal_at_heart]

86. That's okay. I have enough sympathy for all of them. So do many others.

[Lionessa]

87. Please do note that regardless of my sympathy or lack thereof...

I have posted below a my two cents worth about what I think is some of the cause for boys that seems not to be put upon girls (the almost standard option of holding boys back at public schools these days regardless of grades), and not as big a problem for girls (needing physical activity instead of ADHD diagnoses and drugs).

Fortunately I don't have to sympathize or even empathize for my analytical side to kick in and comment.

[leeroysphitz]

89. Really? You guys are gonna just rush over and act all indignant?

Some of you have been busy running around fanning every flame in sight but suddenly I am a jerk for stating the obvious? (or what I think must be obvious to anyone not in the midst of a full-on, old fashioned, internet/D.U. RAGE blow-out™.)

[seabeyond]

117. lol lol.... look at you. k. nt

[seabeyond]

124. leeroy, might want to take note. post after post of ours addressing the issue. thinking, listening

conversing about the subject and our concerns about our boys and different ideas what we need to do.

whereas you stepped in the thread and made a couple posts dissing the feminists on this board. you gave NOTHING to the subject. no consideration at all. not a bit. nada. zilch.

where is your concern for our boys?

or, is your priority simply to diss the feminist on du?

now. i am jumping back into the thread, cause i am learning all kinds of stuff. and it is making me think. good stuff.

[Aerows]

16. You can't overlook

the Prison Industrial Complex. Poorly educated and poorly socialized men just make it easier for them to rake in the profits. It's no wonder they lobby for harsh penalties in the name of "tough love", when mostly it's about "hefty dollars".

Why educate people when you can lock them up and make money doing so?

[HereSince1628]

39. When I was 12 I started thinking school was stupid, I expected to be cannon fodder

in Vietnam...

I suspect, but haven't any proof to back it up, that a fraction of boys who see their older brothers, uncles and fathers swept into prison do have a some sense that school matters less than the the bad day when a cop or prosecuter decides to take you in turn.

[seabeyond]

50. 2000 buscho masho'ism really projected this for our boys. middle school is where

you see it the most. but, the last handful of years with bushco machoism and rw anti intellectualism, we found a strong peer pressure for boys to reject academics. i always had tons of books for boys. they excelled at reading and far advanced for age. i was told so many times, allowing my kids to read such "adult" books didnt allow them to have a childhood. considering social issues at a young age was wrong. ect....

[HereSince1628]

57. The US has certainly richly developed jingoism over the past 12 years.

Militarism is deeply embedded in the spectacle of televised sports which rather lean toward men's sports.

I have no idea how the future looks to a boy or girl in the era of an all volunteer military.

As a kid, Vietnam and the draft made me feel my future was beyond my control.

[seabeyond]

61. from what i hear, the kids are certainly feeling their future is beyond their control for sure.

but, it is not with the likes of war and draft, which is interesting and absolutely in your time. it is the economy, job, personal relationship with the social roles so up in the air.

we had a stable foundation in much of the areas kids do not have today.

[HereSince1628]

67. they aren't alone. I think there is no debt crisis, but the ads on the Ed Show

preach economic apocalypse.

In the apocalypse, I think I'd rather have a bit of land and heritage vegetable seeds than gold.

Uncertainty is as big in current marketing as sex was in ads in the '60s.

[redqueen]

73. And climate change. That is a huge one. nt

[jimlup]

22. As a teacher I would agrue that the problem goes to serious and important issues in education

What we value and what we demand are things that girls are in fact good and frankly much better than boys at most academic tasks during the critical years in question.

As a man, I would claim that it has to with our inherent nature. It won't be solved by ignoring the significant sex linked differences in the way boys and girls encounter and conceive of the world. We can argue "equality" all we want but the sexes are not equal. They are very different and we need to celebrate this difference not hide it or pretend it is absent.

[lumberjack_jeff]

30. Not that many years ago, people were very concerned about the lag among girls.

It can be easily demonstrated that neither boys nor girls have a monopoly on learning ability.

Something has changed in the last 30 years that has resulted in a collapse in the education of boys.

[Lionessa]

47. Do you suppose it is the

holding back in grade school of so many boys for non-educational reasons (I could easily see a boy thinking, what diff does it make if I make good grades and succeed educationally when I'm held back anyway because "that's what we do with boys" attitude, AND the increase in ADHD diagnosis and drugs rather than outdoor activities which are nearly entirely removed from school and home these days?

PS My boy was advanced a grade, but years before when he was in my lap as I fought to have my daughter advanced, the superintendent of Boise School District sat there and advanced warned me that #1 my son would NEVER be advanced, and #2 I better start planning for him to be held back because that was becoming unwritten policy for most boys. Fortunately the grade school my son attended (we moved across town after a divorce) was rational so his advancement didn't require the superintendent meeting.

[lumberjack_jeff]

93. Partly true.

Boys get the picture that school isn't meant for them in preschool, partly because schools treat boys like malfunctioning girls.

Part of the problem is the fact that 82% of primary school teachers are women for whom the behavior of little boys is completely alien.

My middle son was held back in kindergarten (a decision I wish I could take back). He was a near-complete failure in grade and high school. Now he's in college where he's been on the honor roll every quarter. He was written off by two school districts and only began to succeed when he went to the local alt school. He's highly intelligent and a capable learner, but he rebelled against the box into which he was being forced every step of the way.

[Lionessa]

98. Exactly my point! And because teachers don't like normal little boy behavior, the get medicated.

I fought for my son same as my daughter, refused to let them even discuss holding him back, and forced being skipped a grade. Did it for my daughter first because she's four years older. I also home schooled JrHi for both, but I don't recommend that for everyone, I am a pretty good teacher of things, and I got tired of the kids learning about things but not really experiencing them, so we made our own school and they had to test to get re-entered for HiSchool, didn't want to ruin their lives, just assure I had some solid input. Both graduated w/ 4.0 or better (apparently now advanced classes somehow allow for more than 4.0, not in my day) at different schools at age 16.

I am a stubborn, pain in the ass though when it comes to my kids and no one, and I mean NO ONE outranked my decisions when they were my responsibility. And my decisions were based on what the kids told me the problems were. When they came home grumpy from school and the reason was boredom, I stepped in and solved the problem.

I think parents have been made submissive when it comes to their kids, I don't understand why. But everyone else thinks I took parenting way too seriously. Fortunately my kids both thank me and enjoy their lives.

[seabeyond]

119. i like this post. very much. i agree. nt

[lolly]

140. And why is it that the overwhelming majority of Pre-K teachers are women?

Not exactly a plot to harm young boys.

The pay is terrible and the job is too low-status for men to want it.

[lumberjack_jeff]

147. Partly because of the suspicion heaped upon any man looking to work with kids.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=5670187&page=1

On the popular Colorado parent blog hosted by the Denver Post, Milehighmamas, contributor Annie Payne recently wrote:

"…I was okay with our teacher assignment until I realized that not only is my son's new teacher a man, (wait for it Mitch McDad, don't get your boxers in a bunch just yet), he is also young and single! What's a young single dude doing teaching fourth grade anyway?!""

A similar discussion erupted on a Detroit's parent blog called Momslikeme earlier this month. A slew of self-conscious but clearly prejudiced posts responded to the question: "Do you think it is appropriate or inappropriate for young men to be teaching the little ones?"

Opinions ranged from "personally I think it's a little weird," to men are too rough and "if I had a male teacher in my K-3rd grades I would have freaked," to support for male teachers as strong mentors for fatherless children.

[liberal_at_heart]

148. They shouldn't allow prejudiced people keep them from teaching.

I'm sure there are plenty of places that would accept a male elementary school teachers. My son had male music and science teachers in elementary school.

[lumberjack_jeff]

150. Naive.

An unfounded accusation will end a career (at best) quickly, and if another teacher doesn't like him, it's the easy way to get rid of him.

http://www.menteach.org/node/1908

'Parents too quick to point fingers'

In an article published last year for the Canadian Education Association website entitled, False Accusations: A Growing Fear in the Classroom, Bradley wrote that some lies are being told about teachers by students who, "find support in parents and friends who are far too quick to point fingers."

Local teachers unions and other educational authorities are “struggling to identify such incidents," he wrote. But at the same time, he wrote, they appear "ill-equipped to develop realistic procedures and plans that safeguard due process and the reputations of those falsely accused."

The number of false allegations being made against teachers is difficult to determine as there is no central database or available statistics about the issue.

But in a study conducted at Nipissing University, entitled "A Report on the Professional Journey of Male Primary-Junior teachers in Ontario," nearly 13 per cent of male educators said they had been falsely accused. The study had 223 respondents across Ontario.

"I think it’s pretty prevalent," said Professor Douglas Gosse, one of the authors of the study.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-16927479

Over half of accusations made against teachers and teaching assistants by pupils in Wales turned out to be false, malicious or unfounded.

Figures for the last five years obtained by BBC Wales found 55% of 312 allegations were later dropped.

[liberal_at_heart]

152. I have also heard of cases where the innocent sue and get the decisions reversed.

Sometimes you get an entire school full of teachers, students, and parents who stand up to those kind of accusations, and demand that their teacher be brought back.

[lumberjack_jeff]

154. I had a casual acquaintance who killed himself because of apparently unfounded allegations.

As part of a contentious divorce, his ex-wife alleged that he had porn on a computer owned by the school. From there, the rumors spread, he lost his job and soon thereafter committed suicide.

No. As much as I think society would benefit from more male teachers, I wouldn't recommend anyone I know take the job.

Absent some form of political affinity, people don't stand up to defend men accused of... anything, really.

[liberal_at_heart]

155. gay people sometimes kill themselves too. That does not stop other from fighting.

[lumberjack_jeff]

156. Being a teacher is a choice. n/t

[liberal_at_heart]

158. That is true. That does not mean they should allow others to tell them they can't teach

because they're afraid they would molest their children. That kind of discrimination is not okay and should be fought.

[ismnotwasm]

159. That is really sad

When my oldest daughter was deployed in Afghanistan, we had my then five year old grandson, it was his first year of kindergarten. He had a male kindergarten teacher, who was Gay. This was a non-issue with us of course.

We got to know this incredible teacher, (which is why we knew he was Gay) because my grandson started exhibited behavior problems. It was a class of 15, and 5 of the kinds had issues. I don't know how that teacher managed, but he did.

I would go in on my day off, unannounced, to help with My grandson. Dispute his emotional situation, it was suggested to us he may have ADD or ADHD, I told them, what he has is, his mama is away fighting a war, and she's not here, that's what he has. It amazed me how quick they were to head in that direction with him. But they also backed right off, and the teacher agreed with me.

He's 14 now, does very well, not one single sign of ADHD, ever.

(And in my cedar box where I keep such things I have his 'expulsion for one day' from kindergarten document. I'm thinking of having it framed)

[seabeyond]

164. i have done a lot fo research on this, that is not true. it is what is being promoted, also paying

men more to get them to take the job. but, hands down the reason men are not taking the lower grade jobs is because of the pay, mostly. and it is too much a womans job and to uncomfortable for most men with their own peers and the image of an elementary school teacher. and you know the names i am talking.

schools, principle and administration are working actively to get more men in the elementary schools. they are well aware of the issue and they want diversity. it is not a conspiracy. and no, this is not given to men automatically.

[liberal_at_heart]

167. I can definitely see how the pay would be an issue.

Anybody who decides to become a teacher whether a man or a woman has to decide if it is worth all the sacrifices they have to make.

[ismnotwasm]

171. We should pay teachers at least as much as DOV workers or city workers.

And with good benefits. What happens with teaching wages is a sorry shame.

[HereSince1628]

36. Could you name things that girls are in fact good and frankly much better at then boys?

It's not that I doubt you, but I can't be sure what you mean.

[liberal_at_heart]

41. I'm hoping he just means that boys and girls have different learning styles

They obviously can learn the exact same material, but sometimes the way and the speed at which they get there are different. This of course is true of all children. This is not just a gender issue. It has to do with individualism. Because our schools are underfunded and overcrowded we use a cookie cutter method of teaching them. We've made an assembly line education system. All children are individuals who learn at different rates and have different ways of learning.

[seabeyond]

52. This of course is true of all children. This is not just a gender issue.

agreed. 4 different learning style. and over the years, in the younger grades, all the teachers i interacted with were aware of this. and they implemented different styles to address this particular issue. working concepts in different manners so a single child could pick up the concept one way or the other.

what i did find that was consistent over the years was a lack of parental support. when a parent blames a school, or education focused on girls, or a teacher for a kids failure, instead of addressing the very real issue of johnny and putting in the time for the success and support the teacher.

i watched my boys go thru. i did not have a problem with the treatment of the boys in any of the schools. there were issues, i got a call. or i called the school and discussed the issues. i got to know the teachers. i told the teachers boys particular strengths and weakness. i worked with the schools and the teachers.

we focused on a win for the kids.

[liberal_at_heart]

58. it's different now

I tried working with the school. My school district has a strict policy that all middle school children learn grade level math regardless of comprehension level. And because the schools are underfunded, overcrowded, and the curricula is strict and cram packed they can't afford to cater to the 4 different learning styles.

[seabeyond]

65. hmmm. my kids are freshman and senior. lol. so not like i have been out of the middle school

system for a lot of years, lol. one year.

maybe it is area. i know these standardized tests are killing the teachers. they hate them. as much as we do. they see the problems with them, as much as we are seeing.

and you are right, the schools are certainly underfunded.

i am in the panhandle of texas though. and i have been so impressed with what the teachers do.

i have a child that is fuzzy brained. cannot do sequential thinking for anything. he is also brilliant. it took years of me working with teachers for us to give him tools he needed to be able to adjust successfully, with who he is. he isnt changing. this is him. so we had to find a way for him to succeed with his weaknesses.

took lots of time, effort, years, and reading.

[jimlup]

96. I sometimes I forget that I'm not talking to colleagues who all know this data well...

Girls are better and essentially all verbal skills. There are some interesting reasons. One obvious one is that they simply have less ADHD in general. I'm not an expert but as a teacher I've certainly seen the data and also seen this confirmed in the performance of my students. Girls are better at:

1. Taking and organizing notes
2. Understanding context, particularly in verbal reasoning
3. Verbal reasoning
4. Foreign language (again verbal reasoning)
5. Patiently working through a detailed problem, particularly one involving verbal reasoning.

In my career I have also observed that intelligent girls are just as strong in math as there counterpart boys. They often become disinterested in it however simply because of the male domination in these classes. I don't doubt that boys perform equally or better in math reasoning but it is still interesting to ask why and boys are falling behind in every academic subject as time passes.

One hypothesis is that most teachers are women. I personally don't buy this hypothesis. I think it has more to do with how boy's brains work and what those brains are busy working on as they come of age.

[lumberjack_jeff]

102. I find the arguments for single sex classrooms to be compelling.

http://www.singlesexschools.org/evidence.html

[liberal_at_heart]

122. I think there are ways of addressing the problems without seperating the sexes

Yes, as a mother of a struggling boy, I do agree we have to do more to help our boys. But it is not necessary to do it at the expense of our girls. If we separate the sexes then the boys get the idea that their in a boy's club and don't have to deal with girls. Then we end up with men who don't want to hire women because they don't want to deal with them. There is a way to educate all of our children and teach them how to live and work together.

[lumberjack_jeff]

126. Single sex classrooms are not correllated with reduced academic performance among girls.

In most studies, grades improve for both boys and girls.

The reverse of your stereotype is true. Boys in single sex classrooms play the clarinet and girls in single sex classrooms enjoy math.

[kdmorris]

128. Those are quite compelling

I wondered what happened when boys and girls are separated like that - does the opposite sex become some sort of foreign being to the children in single gender classes/schools? But, at the end, it indicated that, actually the opposite is true - "Single-sex schools break down gender stereotypes. Coed schools reinforce gender stereotypes".

Thanks for the link! I wish this had been an option/discussion when our girls were still in school, but at least it's something to research before our boys have to go to school (they aren't even born yet, but we've been researching educational opportunities).

[seabeyond]

134. a year ago on NPR i heard the opposite. it reinforces sexism with boys.

In an article in the current issue of Science magazine, psychologist Rebecca Bigler, along with other members of the American Council for CoEducational Schooling (ACCES) call upon policymakers to take a close look at scientific evidence addressing the negative aspects of single-sex education.

*

According to the report, proponents of single-sex classrooms often misconstrue evidence from neurobehavioral science to justify different educational methods. For example, Leonard Sax, the executive director of the National Association for Single Sex Public Education, inferred from research conducted on adults’ cardiovascular regulation in response to stress that boys respond best in the classroom with loud confrontation (“What’s your answer, Mr. Jackson? Give it to me!”), whereas girls should be approached much more gently (“Lisa, sweetie, it’s time to open your book.”).

Neuroscientists, however, have found very few differences in children’s brains tied to sex, and many believe that the perceived differences in the neural structure or function of adult brains are the result of a lifetime of sex-differentiated experiences rather than inherent differences.

“Schools play a larger role in children’s lives beyond academic training—they prepare children for mixed-sex workplaces, families and citizenry,” Bigler says. “Institutionalizing gender-segregated classrooms limits children’s opportunities to interact with members of the opposite sex and to develop the skills necessary for positive and cooperative interaction.”

http://www.utexas.edu/news/2011/10/03/bigler_coeducational_schooling/

In fact while there is no proof they provide a better learning environment, research suggests segregated schools make children more likely to accept sexist stereotypes.
Because many single-sex schools are selective, their strong exam results could be down to having academically advanced pupils and more demanding teaching programmes, experts said.
In a report published in the Science journal, researchers wrote: "Sex-segregated education is deeply misguided and often justified by weak, cherry-picked or misconstrued scientific claims rather than by valid scientific evidence.
"There is no well-designed research showing that single-sex education improves students' academic performance, but there is evidence that sex segregation increases gender stereotyping and legitimises institutional sexism."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/8781907/Children-at-single-sex-schools-more-likely-to-be-sexist.html

[kdmorris]

181. Looks to me like it depends on how it's done

Your links discuss how it doesn't work because they used "loud confrontational" teaching styles with boys and "softer" teaching styles with girls (basically, TEACHING them sexism) while the other link discusses teaching them the same way without having them in the same classroom. The information at the other link is still compelling - when my daughters were still in school, there was too much sexual tension with the boys for them to concentrate on learning chemistry and physics. They cared more about how they looked to the boys in their classes than what they were being taught. Of course, Florida is #49 in the country for education, too... basically our schools suck.

So - my goal is to determine what variables were used in your two studies to come out with such different data from the multitude of studies at the other link showing the opposite in the 5 years before my sons go to school.

By the way - I didn't say I was sold on the idea -just that I found it interesting.

While reading your links, I found these. This was my issue with my daughters... this does actually seem to be enforcing stereotypes:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/secondaryeducation/9929672/Why-dont-more-girls-study-physics.html

The boys at Redland Green can explain the imbalance. “Boys are naturally adapted to be better at maths and space stuff, whereas girls are better at language and communication,” says one. “Which means – logically, according to science – boys should have a natural ability to understand physics a bit better.” His thesis provokes a murmur of unrest among the girls. Do they disagree? “I just think that — I dunno,” begins Molly, 15. “Girls are usually not doing physics not because they’re not good at it, but because they have other preferences to it. I think girls just find it more interesting to do other things.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/9609566/Girls-put-off-studying-science-in-mixed-gender-schools-says-headmistress.html

My daughters are out of high school now...my concern now is the education of my sons (5 years from now), but I have to tell you, I seriously wish that this option had even been available to explore down here when my daughters were in middle/high school.

[seabeyond]

184. i hear ya on that. and i found it interesting myself. i am all for what works.

and still it may work for some and not be so good for others. i was very flexible and open minded when it came to the boys, and the boys education. i want what is best for them. bottom line.

i am not particularly opposed to same sex class. but, with my own experience with boys in school, i would not choose it for a handful of reasons, also. if i had a child i thought it was the best or only way i was gonna get him thru school, i would take that option.

the comment made by the teacher about physics was incorrect and is out dated. to bad the girls did not have the information to challenge and not let that tired conditioning stand. but, i think that is how sexism is more prone to a single sex class room. no girls are gonna challenge crap like that, and many teachers bring in personal attitude in teaching, and it is instilled without being challenged.

anyway.... i was surprised when listening to npr. and am just saying, we really do not know for sure, yet.

texas is not high on the scale. a lot of the education is from home also. just the stuff we are doing around the house, the conversations and reading material provided. but, i am ok with what the kids are getting also.

[kdmorris]

186. Thanks for the follow up

Quick note: That quote from from a male student, not a teacher. And the article was from 2 days ago.

While I believe that the notion that girls aren't good at science has never been true, unfortunately, that sort of thinking persists to this day. The article that Jeff posted noted that girls in single gender school DID challenge those notions by signing up for science and math classes and doing VERY well in them, as well as or better than the boys did. But, in co-ed settings, for some reason, girls do not take science and advanced math classes, and boys do not take elective Language Arts, Drama and Art classes, as these are considered "girl" classes.

I do think that more research needs to be done on why that is...

And yes, Texas was the only state in the US that is worse than Florida in education (this was a LONG time ago, so it's probably changed by now - but the Bush Brothers did a lot of damage as governors of their states - vouchers, charter schools, etc became very popular and decimated funding for public schools).

[seabeyond]

189. i was surprised with florida on the bottom. i do not think it is anymore.

hard just finding a list. and the states are continually shifting. the bush brothers started those stupid ass test over a decade ago and has done a lot of harm.

50 nevada.
49 new mexico
48 mississippi
47 west virginia
46 az
45 louisanna

florida is at 35
texas is at 32

it seems like the states that get the lowest numbers then get the most focus and move up.

i was surprised seeing nv, az, and nm the last couple years. and are the states the are around me, where i might move. i like the west.

http://datacenter.kidscount.org/data/acrossstates/Rankings.aspx?ind=7247

good to hear it was a student. thanks. but, this is what really bugs me about the whole thing. both boys excel in english, especially reading comprehension. and especially the oldest that scores so out there in that subject had to continually face the perceived concept that they do not do well in that subject. he literally had teachers at teh beginning of school year challenging his reading. fast, sheeeeit. fast. i would not believe he read the material and would quiz him.

and i watched the struggle in math. the subject they were suppose to do well in. though i do believe my youngest learned from his brother not to like math. my oldest cannot do it with his brain for anything.

we cannot fit the cookie cutter mode.

the real fun i learned over the last couple years. with the barriers knocking down, my son is seeing more and more girls in those AP math and science classes and that old stereotype really appears to be going away.

[kdmorris]

190. Yeah, well, if Rick Scott has his way

We'll be back on the bottom in NO time! Luckily we only have that asshole for another year!

[HereSince1628]

129. Well thanks, I do appreciate you naming them.

I agree that young women are equally capable in math, that was certainly my experience at the college level.

[seabeyond]

132. but think about this. this is so fuckin' interesting. i said in a post above that studies show boys

are not held as much as girls. they are also not talked to as much or in the same manner as girls. are we teaching our boys not to be good verbally, like we taught our daughters to not be good in math?

i never considered treating my boys consciously, or unconsciously obviously, any different than a baby. was just a baby. needed the luvins as a baby and i chatted with the babies from day one. as if they knew what i was talking about. social issues, political, was a rw christian coalition so we even had religious conversation. books.... lottsa lottsa books. the only thing i spent money on. every day, even as baby, we spent time with books. they were our toy. always had that around the kids.

they have to talk, they get no choice.

today, at 17 and 15, these boys are more verbal than any girl. insightful and self reflective. they analyze their friggin emotions. they both excelled in english, especially reading comprehension. my oldest tested at the top 5% of the top 10% in the nation.

why cant we be teaching our boys NOT to be verbal, just like we taught our girls NOT to be analytical.

[liberal_at_heart]

144. my autistic son had fewer and fewer tantrums the more he could verbalize how he felt

That wasn't the only thing that helped but it was one of the things that helped. He also learned calming techniques such as breathing slowly, walking, reading, or just finding a quiet place to be alone. Luckily his schools not only taught him some of these things in occupational therapy but his teachers allow him to practice these techniques in class. My daughter took yoga last year in school and she loved it. It was a great way for her to deal with the stresses was dealing with during the day at school. Just as with any complex issue there are many moving parts to this and it takes using lots of different ideas to deal with the problems.

[seabeyond]

169. absolutely liberal. this is what i have found with the kids. it is always trying things out,

adjusting, fitting, shifting.

it is all good.

my youngest. he could not be comforted. oddest thing. i would have to be next to him. it was all about energy, but not touching, cuddling, comforting. yoga was a good thing for him about 3, 4. i have the cutest picture of him in position, finger/thumb touching and ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

and yes, takes him to his calm place

funny how creative we will get.

[ismnotwasm]

55. So you're saying boys learn differently?

I was under the impression that there are several different learning styles and teaching methods to go with them, I realize of course that public schools lack proper resources. I was also under the impression that once widely held beliefs, i.e. girls not as good at mathematics, boys are better with spacial reasoning are being proved wrong or less significant than once thought.

What would you do to help improve the situation?

[librechik]

26. because they have been working so hard to turn our boys into savages with huge wallets--

or criminals.

They're not going to turn around and demand our boys be nice and obedient and get ahead in school--everything is working out so well! The sports are awesome! Now the poor can either go in the army or jail. Either way, they (the MIC) are making a ton of money on spoiling boys for civilization.

Keep on demonizing women so men are ashamed to be good nurturing citizens and parents (or Democrats.)0`+11 Pretty soon the entire country will be rotten.

[Fresh_Start]

37. boys love of video games and parents focus on sports for their boys is a big part of the problem

girls spend more time on school work with the resulting better grades and college admissions

[Fresh_Start]

40. think about the disfunctional steubenville...football heroes

had the entire town swooning....

whereas the honor student girl victim was labelled a tramp and responsible for her own demise

[liberal_at_heart]

46. boys can be active and visual learners without turning into over masculinized monsters

My son is active. He is fidgety, likes to move around, and he played on the wrestling team this year. He is also a visual and tactile learner. He learns best when he can learn hands on, see what it is he is learning and use his hands and his brain to work to solve a problem. He is also a very kind, generous, and helpful young man.

[seabeyond]

54. and i have two boys that must learn thru reading, not listening. we know our kids. we can give

them the tools they need to be successful.

the schools can try, but each child is different. schools need a parent participation in the success of our children.

[liberal_at_heart]

63. I agree parents have to participate but it is hard when you have a special education

student at a 6th grade math comprehension level and they are sending homework home for 8th grade math curricula. What is a parent suppose to do with that? I of course do the best I can, I tell my son to do the best he can, and I tell him not to worry too much about the rest. I've had to back off just a little on my son because it was beginning to damage his self esteem and make him feel stupid and I'm sorry but I blame the school for that. They made my son feel stupid and damaged his self esteem because they want to force him to learn 8th grade math when he has a 6th grade math comprehension so that they can have good stats and get funding. All of sixth grade, he would come home crying and ask if he could skip. I knew if I didn't do something about his self esteem he would end up a drop out. So, we have a motto now. Work as hard as you can, do as much as you can, and don't worry about the rest. If there is homework that doesn't get done then so be it. Today, he came home and told me that last semester he was all excited about getting a C+ in science, but he failed the first test of the semester so now he is starting out the semester with an F. I told him this happens to all students at the beginning of a semester. You have to wait until more grades come in to help balance out the grade, but the fact that he has had bad grades for so long and he has worked so hard to try and bring his grades up this was just another disappointment for him. One in a long list.

[seabeyond]

69. you child is the one being most lost in the cracks of the system that has been created.

special ed is where the teachers are most outraged, with the test. the damage it does to the children. it is not the teachers fault. it is the govt that implemented this.

i have two kids, totally different.

one i would ask, i didnt you get 104% (the extra credit) when he would tell me he got a 102%. school is just that easy. tests that easy.

the other is not the same child. i hear what you say. the blow to the confidence.

i do like what you are doing with your son. it is not the straight A's that will be success. it will be ability to work, put in the effort, preserver. all these are going to be much more important than the easy A that a student didnt have to work for.

you have a long way to go. i hear ya. it is hard.

[liberal_at_heart]

70. yeah it's not so much the teachers that I blame as the school administrations, the school boards,

and the politicians who set these horrible policies and don't properly fund our schools and you are so right about the problems facing special education. Thank you for the encouragement.

[HockeyMom]

53. I am the mother of only daughters

I am an only child female. Yet, in working with special needs children, I have only worked with MALE children. Oh my what do I KNOW about males? Both sexes deserve EQUAL treatment. Yes, I can see differences between the genders, BUT both genders are still HUMANS, and we must not forget that fact. Humanity trump everything else.

[redqueen]

56. Christina Hoff Sommers is an acceptable source here now?

Yeah, just kidding. I know certain people have been peddling her shit for years.

[HereSince1628]

60. I suppose the guy who deserves scruitiny is the author, Mark Sherman, PhD

[tkmorris]

64. That Sommers is problematic as a source was discussed in the article

No one disagrees with that. However Ms. Sommers' personal views have nothing to do with the points being discussed here. The data is the same regardless of who decides to highlight it. In fact, if you would read the article, you would learn that the methods used by many in the feminist movement to overcome what used to be girls falling behind in education are not only applauded but in some ways seen as a template for how to correct the current issue with boys.

[redqueen]

71. Well a brief glimpse at some of the discussions about this issue on DU

Will hopefully explain my visceral reaction to seeing her name. (i.e. Many people, not just she, seek to blame feminism for this situation. Some on DU go so far as to say it is intentional.)

[tkmorris]

72. Your reaction is understandable. However...

I do hope that you will not permit it to interfere with a fair analysis of this article and the very real problems it addresses.

[ismnotwasm]

165. I ignored the name as best I could

Because the article had decent content, and there has been a growing awareness of this problem

[ismnotwasm]

151. I know right?

Still, there is a growing gap; it doesn't surprise me she jumps on this topic. That women is drawn to hurt and harm

[JDPriestly]

75. We are pushing all our pre-school and kindergarten children too fast.

But boys, who on the average, mature a little more slowly than girls in terms of their ability to sit still and listen and use fine muscles, are even less ready than their female schoolmates for all that pressure.

Stop expecting kids to read before they are six years old. And stop measuring all children by the same standard.

We are, each of us, different from each other of us. You can talk about averages. I did above, but let's remember a child can have tremendous difficulty, say, with math, in the third grade and be really a whiz at algebra later on. We stigmatize children too early, too much.

Learning is a creative process. We need to acknowledge that it is a creative process for both boys and girls.

[seabeyond]

135. i agree. i had one child that was always ahead in the milestones. i had one that was always behind

in the milestones.

yet, the child that was always behind always caught up. i learned early to leave him alone. he would be just fine

[davidn3600]

77. Absolutely no question about it and the statistics prove it

[img][/img]

You also see men in their 20s and even 30s are different than the previous generations. They are not as motivated. They are struggling to find their niche in society. They put off marriage and many still shack up with their parents. They have low-level jobs that are dead end and play a lot of video games to pass the time.

Men also today have higher rates of ADHD and depression, most of which begins in childhood. Men also have higher suicide rates than women.

Its starting to look like Japan's "lost generation" pretty soon.

[Evoman]

99. College degrees are becoming increasingly useless.

I see these studies and all the lamentations about boys not going to college and I think...so what? They are instead going into jobs like mining and oil rigs where they make 5 times what they would being underemployed after going to college, without the thousands in debt. They are going into trades, where you can make as much as any college student and start your own flexible business. They can get a tow truck or big rig and have a well paying job almost instantly.

Women go to college because they have to in order to have any chance at making money. Men don't have to. College just ain't what is used to be. Hell, I went for 7 years, and when I came out, my friends who didn't go are making a shit ton more than me, have no debt, and have houses and cars. Going into grad school is like taking a vow of poverty.

On edit: One of my friends is a self taught IT guy/hacker. He didn't have to go to college and got a sweet ass job with the UN (I'm not sure what he does there...computer forensics, maybe?) working with computers and makes more in a year than I've made in my entire life.

[liberal_at_heart]

100. everyone should be have access to any and all education

Driving a big rig is fine for those who want to. Both of my brothers do, and hell I've even thought about doing it. But those who want to become physicists or engineers or doctors, both men and women, need access to quality k-12 education and college.

[lumberjack_jeff]

101. Degrees are the price you pay for a career in the comfy chair.

Does one really need a masters degree followed by a lengthy internship to perform a job in an ad agency?

The degree is important to get the job, not so important to actually do it.

And that calculus may be worthwhile if you don't care about risk (the life expectancy of a coal miner is 52.7 years) or incompatibility with a family life.

This may be a bold suggestion... but maybe there are some men out there for whom their skills line up nicely with careers in medicine or accounting or other college-requiring fields? Maybe society would be better off if they were given the opportunity instead of forcing them onto an oil rig.

The fact that his sister doesn't want to be a long haul truck driver is not a compelling reason to force him into it when he's capable of more.

[Evoman]

104. Fair point.

All I'm saying is that men have alternatives, and that maybe that at least partially explains why there are less men in academics. It's not like men are being excluded from going to university, and when I went 10 years ago, there were more women in my field but still had plenty of men.

You do make some good points though.

[lumberjack_jeff]

105. Women have alternatives too.

I've been in a long haul truck. The seat and steering wheel adjust to a wide range of ergonomic configurations. There is nothing about any of the careers you mentioned that preclude women from doing them.

... except safety, discomfort, inconvenience and laboriousness.

[boston bean]

106. Explain why male nurses on average make more than female nurses.

And many more men are going into nursing, a historically female occupation. Why would that be?

[lumberjack_jeff]

107. They work more hours. Simple. n/t

[boston bean]

111. How the hell do they get so much time to work all them extra hours?

And do you have some stats you can point to that it is the case.

I've read they there are more male nurse anaesthicists and they are also promoted more quickly than women.

[lumberjack_jeff]

118. The trend holds true for all occupations.

In 2006, the average man employed full-time worked 8.4 hours per work day, and the average woman employed full-time worked 7.7 hours per work day.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_time

In a fair world, you'd expect to see a 12% pay gap from this phenomenon alone.

The fact that you didn't already know this shows the degree to which the information bubble is doing you a disservice.

[ismnotwasm]

170. I'm a nurse.

What male nurses tend to do is work in ICU or ER or in surgery. Male nurses don't necessarily 'work more hours' My job has a decent enough union sothere is no gender gap in pay, but I understand that's not true if union representation is poor. I'd have to look it up though, it's an anecdotal observation.

[seabeyond]

136. One year out of college, female teachers earn 89 percent of what male teachers earn.

A good portion of the pay differential one year out of school can be explained by choice of major. Eighty-one percent of education majors are female, as are 88 percent of health-care majors. In computer science, information technology, and engineering, more than 80 percent of majors are male. Teachers and physical therapists, on average, tend to earn less than engineers. Women also choose to work in sectors of the economy where there are fewer opportunities to advance into higher-paying jobs. (A teacher might get tenure or become a school principal after working for 20 years. An engineer will move up the pay scale more quickly, and the raises will be bigger over time.)

But as the scenario above shows, even when women and men are in practically identical situations, their earnings start to diverge just one year out of school. That’s true across most sectors of the economy. One year out of college, female teachers earn 89 percent of what male teachers earn. In sales jobs, women earn 77 percent of what male peers earn. Women who major in business earn, on average, just over $38,000 the first year after graduation, while men earn just over $45,000. “About one-third of the gap cannot be explained by any of the factors commonly understood to impact earnings,” write the AAUW researchers, Catherine Hill and Christianne Corbett.

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-10-25/why-women-earn-less-than-men-a-year-out-of-school

[lumberjack_jeff]

149. Male teachers take coaching jobs.

An 11% difference? The differential between the average full-time female and the full-time male workweek - by itself - should create a 12% pay disparity.

[seabeyond]

168. wrong. the first year out.... many are not in coaching positions and if it were so obvious,

you can darn well bet that would have been put in.

you do not get to just make up a reason you see would fit lumber. the reality.

the first year into education, women are paid less.

[truedelphi]

161. Have you watched that lady "Body Language" expert

Who had a presentation sponsored by TED? Her name is Amy Cuddy.

All the many things that show a group of people (or an individual) who are conducting interviews, all the things the job candidate must do to look like they are confident, intelligent, purposeful etc can look rather intimidating if done by a woman! So a woman has a much harder time interviewing because even if she studies the body language skills that she needs so she comes across correctly, she also has to know how to tone those body expressions down just enough to look strong enough but not too strong. And if she misjudges and tones the body expressions down too much then she looks too simpering and childish etc.

Whereas a guy doing an interview just needs to learn the basic body language skills!

[seabeyond]

173. bookmark for tomorrow. so tired, but i want to watch. thanks. luv this stuff. nt

[Evoman]

108. So what are some real world solutions to this?

What changed in education that made boys lag behind? What are some real, concrete changes that can be made to address this? Maybe it's because I live in Canada, I haven't noticed many changes in school or curriculum to have caused such a seismic shift.

[liberal_at_heart]

115. American education is in crisis. Most problems stem from lack of funding.

We have been spending less and less on education for a long time now. Some like to think this is a new phenomena or that this new set of tea party republicans are the only ones to blame. But the fact of the matter is, is this crisis is a long time coming. We've been defunding education for a long time and I haven't seen any politicians, republican or democrat, really address this problem.

[seabeyond]

138. evo... 3, 4 decades ago school was more structured. and yet, boys overwhelmingly graduated

from college compared to girls.

adn if the boys did not sit still in class, they got a paddle to their ass.

yes.... what is this drastic change in the educational system from today and 4 decades ago, besides more creative ways working for this supposed boys need of movement.

[liberal_at_heart]

141. So all we need to do is paddle them like we use to?

That's a pretty simplistic answer in my view. My father in law seems to think we wouldn't have as many mass shootings if we just paddled our kids again. Maybe your boys didn't need to move, but mine does especially when he is stressed. Luckily because our son is autistic his teachers do allow him to get up and move when he wants to. Sometimes he even goes out into the hallway and walks up and down the hallway to decompress and calm down when he is overwhelmed by stress or just the chaos of the classroom. Like I said in another post this isn't always just attributed to one gender. My daughter has a class where she is allowed to sit in the back. Because she sits in the back the teacher allows her to stand when she wants to. She really enjoys being able to do that.

[seabeyond]

142. dont even go there. i am not suggesting hitting a child. i will read your post in a bit

but that was appalling.

[Warren DeMontague]

163. sure sounds like that's the point you're trying to make. Pining

for the "good old days".

Otherwise, why juxtapose how boys used to graduate and how "we used to paddle their ass if they didn't sit still"?

Sort of weird, if you ask me.

[Evoman]

174. Oh come on.

I know you don't like seabeyond, but your misrepresenting what she said. She is just explaining some of the differences between now and the past.

Why do we have to do this shit in every damn thread. A DUer tells you that's not what she means, why not just accept that and stop this stupid fight picking.

[Warren DeMontague]

178. I've re-read that post 3 times, it sure sounds like that is the point she's trying to make.

Otherwise, why mention it?

But, whatever. OK.

[Evoman]

179. I know you guys disagree often

But given what you know about her, do you really think she would advocate beating kids in school?

Okay. Lets just let it go.

[Warren DeMontague]

180. 'what I know'.. heh. She regularly makes arguments about the 'decadent, worsening culture'

I know that.

...it seems reasonable to me that she considers the way things were done in the past, to be preferable in many instances.

But I tell you what, I've seen a lot of nasty crap thrown at good DU members--- for no reason at all.

Whether you believe me or not, it's not my style.

[seabeyond]

185. it is simply the truth. talking about the differences in the system then and now. not a whole lot

but the teachers and adm more educated in differing teaching styles being even more of a benefit to our boys today, than yesterday.

and yes, they paddled the butt. saying the words is not advocating for spanking. i dont/did not spank. first private school kids went to they paddle. i was sure my kids would never be in that position to be paddled. and i was sure to tell superintendent and principle no one paddled my boys. ever.

but still, the bottom line question was not answered. why, with the system certainly no better in the past and the education not taught in a differing manner, were men graduating at overwhelming rates above the women, and today the system more tailored to individual children and our boys, with supposed different learning styles for the boys that are again supposedly doing less well.

i personally do not think there is a major shift in success of college as much as girls are just rising in the number of success, making it appear the boys are not doing as well.

BUT.. having two boys, and my priority being my boys, i am ALWAYS open to what will help and be best for ALL children.

that is why i speak up. from what i see the shifting of blame to teaching and classroom style is not really where the problem is and will only further harm our boys, giving them an out when we really need to focus on the real problem.

and yes, i am pretty damn sure your posts were meant for just more peddly pitiful call out. and i too am tired of it. so i will not reply to the next reply.... this is all yours.

[Warren DeMontague]

192. I expressed my opinion on part of what I think may be happening in an earlier thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1255&pid=16411

Other than that, I think the primary problem with schools right now is funding and class size; addressing those would benefit everyone, imho.

You want to read whatever into my posts, go ahead- you have expressed sympathy for "culture war" arguments in the past, on other topics. You also brought up paddling, unprompted. If it's not something you're suggesting be brought back (although in some states it never left) ... then we agree.

[seabeyond]

193. your opinion means shit to fact. nt

[Warren DeMontague]

194. What "fact"?

The entire purpose of this exercise is to speculate (or not) on what may be causing this phenomena.

However, I'm glad such an expert on expressing oneself clearly, logically, and linearly is here to offer me advice.

[seabeyond]

195. your opinion that my stating the paddle in the past means i advocate paddling. to the fact i do not

[Warren DeMontague]

196. I acknowledged that. My use of "opinion" in the prior post was in regard to what I wrote in HoF

on the same subject, i.e. the subject of academics and boys.

I can hazard another speculation, if no one minds.

.. it has nothing to do with "wiring" or evo psych or any of that- it's purely sociological and really just a hunch. Call it the "grass is greener" syndrome. Men- maybe not even so much the Millennials in college now but certainly my cohort and those probably 10 years younger.. grew up seeing lots of "successful", educated, and fundamentally frustrated and/or unhappy men of their dads' generation. Women of the same age, likewise, grew up seeing lots of frustrated, unhappy moms and women who were unable to pursue fulfilling careers due to entrenched sexism.

The overwhelming sense I had- across the board- with the generation of my own parents (call them the "Mad Men" generation) was that they felt shoehorned into a world which stopped existing not long after. They were (for the most part) too old to be hippies, stuck in cardboard careers and early marriages while the folks 5-10 years younger got naked at woodstock. This led to things like their subsequent divorce explosion IMHO.

I think a lot of people were lost, and unhappy, for instance during the 70s- for real practical reasons like discrimination in the workplace as well as deeper philosophical ennui. So I think for Gen X, for instance, there was a broad determination to notdowhatourparentsdid; but what that translates to, in reality, depends on what the parents did not do, as well.

This is not to discount the point made in the article about wage disparity on graduation, either- I suspect that is likely a factor, certainly with younger people... although it displays a marked lack of foresight on the part of the men who are dropping out.

You've said you're not pro-paddling, so okay, on that point we agree.

[seabeyond]

197. i have thought to that time.

a lot of stuff was happening. and now, generations later, we are raising our children letting them down. i do believe it was mine time that did this. maybe sometime we can have a really fun thread on this concept. i have been thinking about it a lot.

being a teen in the late 70's early 80's and living single thru out 80's as a twenty something. that was a totally different role than just the previous generation. it was the first time as a group so many of us lived that life. all thru the 20's were play for me, some very dangerous play, and a lot of fellow 20 somethings doing the same.

it absolutely had a huge effect. and i see it in the parenting today.

that is a good point and it is something i have considered a lot. i just have not found what i am looking for.

thanks.

[Warren DeMontague]

198. I apologize for misinterpreting your post.

[seabeyond]

199. thank you. nt

[seabeyond]

191. thanks. believing their own PR. seemed to be the meme to say. regardless of only having men

and boys in my life.

and interesting, you would be the man to kick a womans ass thru the door to help her along, lol. or whatever. got a chuckle out of those posts.

[ecstatic]

160. my theory

When I was growing up, my parents would tell me that I could be anything I wanted to be. I think they did that because women were making leaps and bounds with regard to equality and they wanted me to be self sufficient. I'm not sure that boys in my age group were told similar things. I think many parents probably assumed that boys would do well by default and that it wasn't necessary to verbalize the need to take school seriously, etc.

[Evoman]

175. Maybe.

Its hard to say, isn't it? Did you have any brothers or male cousins? We're they encouraged?

[ismnotwasm]

176. There's a probably a few causes

And it's not isolated to the US. Jeff may be right, while we were helping girls get into math and sciences and college, the assumption was that boys would follow right along, because traditionally they were the ones that got the education. Apparently they didn't.

I'm going to do some harder research into this, and take a good look at the stats.

The number one thing to do, would be to talk to educators, find out what is going on in the classrooms. There have been news articles indicated boys find education a 'waste of time'. Another thing on my wish list is to pay educators what they're worth with strong union protection.

But then there is this POV

Graduation rates have remained flat in the U.S. since the 1980s, and only about half of students who start a four-year degree complete by the 6-year mark. Australia, the United Kingdom, and Norway, Japan, and 11 other OECD countries exceed our graduation rate today. Fifteen years ago, only Australia matched graduation rates in the U.S.
One reason for this stall is that students must work more hours than in the past to pay for schooling. In 1970 only one in ten full time college students worked 20-34 hours per week. Today that proportion has doubled to one in five.
In addition to working more, students whose parents cannot fund their college education typically go into debt. According to the College Board, in 1975, 80% of student aid took the form of direct grants, and only 20% in loans; now that is nearly reversed: 70% of student aid is in the form of loans, and only 30% takes the form of grants.
Gender, Debt and Dropping Out of College. Going into debt to finance college does not have uniformly negative results. Dwyer and colleagues found that having some college debt makes staying in college more likely for both men and women. But when men reach a debt level of slightly less than $12,500, they are more likely to be discouraged, while women’s debt level can reach about $14,500 before they become more prone to be discouraged.

The job market. Why are men more likely to give up on college and get a job instead when their college debt mounts, while women stick to their original plans? In “Gender, Debt, and Dropping Out of College,” Dwyer and colleagues suggest that women’s willingness to stick it out longer in the face of higher debt is a paradoxical result of women’s continuing disadvantage on the job market. In the short run, men who drop out of college do not experience a wage penalty in comparison to their peers who go on to graduate. It may be harder for men than for women to see the advantage of staying in college because in the early years after college, men who complete college make no higher pay than men who drop out.

In contrast, women who complete college earn on average upwards of $6,500 more than women who have dropped out. The authors explain, “Female dropouts simply face worse job prospects than male dropouts.” In particular, women who drop out are more likely to be employed in lower-paying service work, while men who drop out have opportunities in higher–paying manufacturing, construction, and transportation work.
So men withdraw sooner, but pay later. While men don’t face a wage penalty early on if they drop out, the penalty accumulates later. By middle age, men with a college degree earn $20,000 more on average than men with some college but no degree.

http://www.contemporaryfamilies.org/Gender-Sexuality/why-dont-men-finish-college-as-often-as-women-press-release.html

So my guess is that it's more complex than we think, but a very real problem.

[Evoman]

177. That kind of goes with what i was saying above

About how men not going into college seem to fare relatively well. And when you think about it, 20, 000 more by middle age isn't that much, considering all the time you save on starting up your life.

I'm not against going to college, considering what I said above. College can be a great time, and the contacts you make and things you learn are fantastic. But unless go into a profession that pays well, it can seem like "a waste of time".

I'm really not sure what's going on, especially since I don't have kid. I have twin niece and nephew in grade two, and the boy is doing better in school than the girl. She is kind of spacey, while the nephew seems to have a lot more ability to focus. He has a lot of social anxiety though, so who knows who will do better in the end.

[seabeyond]

187. having some college debt makes staying in college more likely for both men and women.

Last edited Tue Mar 19, 2013, 09:41 AM - Edit history (2)

having two kids stepping into college, the last four years we have continually shifted from what we thought was best, and what we thought we would be able to do, because of the constant rising cost of college.

first, a decade or so ago. any school, anywhere, you get in and we got it. 5 yrs ago... k, not like a harvard or something. gotta be reasonably priced. this year. k, not gonna be able to afford 25k a year so how about a loan for exactly the reason the article stated. the kid has an investment in the education.

our oldest, we were lucky because thru academic and sports scholarship, the education is about 6, 7k a year. he got 21k a year knocked off. he accomplished that, so yea. not gonna happen with the second child and then further education.

scary stuff. i do not know how people do it.

we have some saved for college, starting a decade and half ago. but, not what it would cover today.

[eridani]

188. We do? Then do something about the ancient American tradition of anti-intellectualism

It isn't anything new, but it's been differentially harming young men for quite awhile now. It used to be that men didn't need "book learning" to get the comparatively well paid jobs that were reserved for them. That has always been sissy girly stuff--stuff which now is necessary for qualifying for 21st century jobs.