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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsRemember this guy? Father Mychal Judge?
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On the morning of Sept. 11, 2001, Father Mychal arrived at the World Trade Center shortly after the first plane hit. And as firefighters and other rescue personnel ran into the North Tower, he went with them.
Bill Cosgrove, a police lieutenant, was also there. When the South Tower collapsed, it sent debris flying into the neighboring building. When the dust cleared, Mychal Judge was dead. Soon after, Cosgrove found him. Then, Cosgrove and a group of firefighters emerged from the rubble, carrying Father Mychal's body.
Here's how Cosgrove, who's now retired, recalls that day:
http://www.npr.org/2011/09/09/140293993/slain-priest-bury-his-heart-but-not-his-love
With all the Catholic bashing going on here, we forget that there are good people who also happen to be Catholic. Not all priests are pedophiles. So painting all of them with a broad brush is very disingenuous. Also, Father Mychal was admittedly gay, which did not stop him from being loved by the firemen whom he was pastor for.
http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/sept11/features/5372/
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Cooley Hurd
(26,877 posts)A good man.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)If not, why are you presenting that straw man?
Cleita
(75,480 posts)If it is indeed a straw man, it's not my straw man.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)I don't think those kinds of wild exaggerated claims help DU move forward on this issue.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)You pulled the Giuliani 9/11 trump card. You win - you don't have to address my question and I am vanquished!
Cleita
(75,480 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)I asked who said all priests were pedophiles.
What exactly was your answer? Who said it?
liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)Sorry I offended you by asking someone to back up their claim.
October
(3,363 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)No one should be "bashing" Catholics here. If they do and violate TOS or CS then alert on them. Otherwise put them on ignore. There are a few bullies in DU that righteously (in their minds) bash just about everything. PUT THEM ON IGNORE PLEZ it will help DU.
Other than the few bullies, no one here thinks all priests are pedophiles. That's absurd and a strawman argument. And we DONT forget their are good Catholics and Catholic heroes.
DU posters have every right to call attention to practices by Catholics, gun owners, Mormons, etc. that they see as detrimental to society. Criticism shouldnt be equated with "bashing".
the words most,too many,etc.,etc., if that will make you happy. You may not have missed the post but you certainly have missed the point. One thing for certain, you want to evade the issue.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Accuracy is important in any dialog. I don't think it helps anyone to exaggerate and misrepresent others. Do you agree?
I don't appreciate the snide personal remark, BTW.
FunkyLeprechaun
(2,383 posts)and when I read people calling people like me a bigot it makes me SO angry. Like REALLY angry. Almost as if you're excusing what happened to my family in the church.
My mother was abused by her Catholic Priest uncle (he got away with it by dying) and the nuns at her boarding school threatened to send her to the laundries. If people continue to be Catholics and endorsing the church that refuses to apologise for the sex abuse scandals, trying to excuse the priests and stuff like that (they moved Cardinal Law after the Boston stuff happened)... well.. I have a few choice words for them.
It's not about certain people it's the way the Church conducts themselves.
It's not a strawman at all. It's an endemic.
TommyCelt
(838 posts)So what?
"Continuing to be Catholics" does NOT = "endorsing the church that refuses to apologise for the sex abuse scandals, trying to excuse the priests and stuff like that"
If by "the Church" you mean the conduct of the hierarchy/epsicopal clergy in relation to the abuse scandals, then huzzah... I'm with you. But if by "the Church", you're referring to what is actually IS, i.e., the people of God/community of believers/folks in the pews then, well...you going to have one more person to be, like REALLY angry about.
amuse bouche
(3,657 posts)does NOT = "endorsing the church that refuses to apologize for the sex abuse scandals, trying to excuse the priests and stuff like that"
Of course it does, but many just love their blinders and excuses.
TommyCelt
(838 posts)I work with my parish in charity to the poor and particularly special-needs kids. The mechanism is in place to do so effectively and conveniently and I'm a pragmatist. We try to do that "follow Christ" in word and deed thing as best we can...silly weekly meetings and such. I've asked around, but I just can't seem to locate the "Wack-a-Pedophile" booth at the annual bazaar.
Oh well - perhaps my inherent wonderful-ness will rub off on my Church, what do ya think?
To what squeaky-clean organizations do you belong and are therefore automatically corrupted by? Renounced your citizenship after the invasion of Iraq, did ya? 
amuse bouche
(3,657 posts)make all the excuses you want. It doesn't change the fact that the church is anti equality for women and gays and complicit for thousands of years of child abuse
TommyCelt
(838 posts)No fair. I MADE excuses for your charges.
Shucks.
Response to TommyCelt (Reply #200)
Post removed
Response to Post removed (Reply #201)
TommyCelt This message was self-deleted by its author.
Zoeisright
(8,339 posts)
RandiFan1290
(6,221 posts)
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,154 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)Please point to a post where someone said all priests are pedophiles. That's an extremely serious allegation and I would expect some really good evidence to back it up.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)priesthood by implication. You only need to search this website and you will find plenty of evidence.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Thanks, that's what I thought.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Our last Pope was indicted as a pedophile enabler which basically besmirches all the
priesthood by implication.
That's defining bigotry down to the point where it becomes a meaningless term. You see, that's criticizing one man, not all priests, let alone all Catholics.
That's a dishonest form of argumentation.
P.S. Benedict was a pedophile enabler. Sorry if the facts are bigoted against the Catholic Church.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/feb/11/pope-complicit-child-abuse-say-victims
11 Bravo
(23,926 posts)the underlying premise of many of your posts; I find both the manner in which you often attempt to make your point, when coupled with your almost pathological need to present yourself as an uber-hip lefty dude, to be one part comical, one part pitiful, and one part repellent.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)11 Bravo
(23,926 posts)accuse me of saying something I didn't say, and then go off on yet another disingenuous rant. That behavior usually seems to provide balm for your angst.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)engage in name-calling and personal attacks?
If you have substance to discuss, I would be more than happy to hear it.
If you are itching for a fight, sorry you're not my type.
11 Bravo
(23,926 posts)man who died trying to help others. Your contributions to the thread began with a statement that the "entire priesthood" has been "besmirched" by implication as a group of pedophile enablers. You further added to the discussion of Father Judge with a recollection of centuries old attacks on the Mayans and other native peoples. But I'm the one "itching for a fight".
Are you capable of sufficient introspection to understand that your behavior is akin to someone invading one of the threads pertaining to the very real issue of sexism and shouting, "Oh yeah! Lizzie Borden!"?
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)and his life. A truly inspirational figure.
I did not "wade in" until the OP equated criticism of Ratzinger/Benedict with anti-Catholic bigotry.
This is the same game the AIPAC crowd plays by accusing anyone who criticizes Israel of being anti-Semitic.
So, yeah, given the Church's treatment of child abuse victims, women, and GLBTQ Americans, it's really obnoxious to claim that criticism of the Church or the freaking pope on those grounds is bigotry that oppresses them.
Sure, posts that single out individual Catholics based solely onntheir status as Catholics are hateful nonsense.
But there's an effort to shield a corrupt and itself bigoted organization from criticism by hiding behind claims of bigotry ala Tom Donohue.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)
JVS
(61,935 posts)Who is undergoing the process of canonization even though he did absolutely nothing about the pedophilia crisis for decades.
Hekate
(90,560 posts)It IS an extremely serious allegation, and you can go wade through the sewage yourself to find the links.
The Pope is a "kiddie diddler." Catholics who remain in the pews are complicit. The Roman Catholic Church is the greatest instrument of oppression and torture ever.
If you have managed to miss all this, you have been away for the past several weeks.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)Why am I expected to do the research to back up your claims?
I've seen plenty of threads discussing the negative aspects of the Catholic church. I haven't yet seen anyone claim that all priests are pedophiles. Have you? If so, can you direct me to that post?
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)But the RCC had a several centuries head start . . .
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)who does more torturing today, do you think -- the catholic church or the us military and intelligence services?
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)stuff when Franco died.
But, they ran up quite a score in Europe and Latin America until then. US has zero chance of catching up in terms of lifetime achievement.
I mean, the cultural genocide that occurred in the New World alone is hall of fame stuff. Priests almost succeeded in wiping out the written history of the Mayans, Incas, and Aztecs.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)whether or not the us can catch up with the church's record, it's the us who's torturing NOW.
yet you seem more obsessed with the spanish inquisition than what your own government is doing NOW.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)is.
The Catholic Church was fully fused with Franco's government--the dictatorship paid priests, banned all other faiths, and appointed all bishops.
Franco's Spain was the perfect fusion of fascism and religious authoritarianism. And the Roman Catholic Church was fully complicit.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)is not the same as actually doing the regime's torturing.
no, you don't need to make every discussion about how evil the us is.
but when you continually take the catholic church to task for torturing it did 500 years ago, while ignoring the torturing your own government is doing NOW, people may begin to wonder how much you actually care about TORTURE, v. how much you care about bashing the catholic church.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)They were one and the same.
In discussions of US human rights abuses, I will discuss those.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)because unless it did, the church supporting franco is no different from the republican and democratic parties supporting our own regimes, which also torture.
and, perhaps you've forgotten this part, the us gov't refused to aid the spanish republicans and also supported franco.
On 5 August 1936, the United States had made it known that it would follow a policy of non-intervention... It also confirmed it would not take part in several mediation attempts, including by the Organization of American States. Roosevelt ruled out US interference...
On 6 January, the first opportunity after the winter break, both houses of Congress in the United States passed a resolution banning the export of arms to Spain. Those in opposition to the bill, including American socialists, communists and many liberals, suggested that the export of arms to Germany and Italy should be halted also under the Neutrality Act of 1935, since foreign intervention constituted a state of war in Spain. Cordell Hull, continued to doubt the extent of German and Italian operations, despite evidence to the contrary.[66] At the same time, the automakers Ford, Studebaker, and General Motors provided a total of 12,000 trucks to the Nationalists. After the war was over, José Maria Doussinague, who was at the time undersecretary at the Spanish Foreign Ministry said, "without American petroleum and American trucks, and American credit, we could never have won the Civil War.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_involvement_in_the_Spanish_Civil_War
As the United States became increasingly concerned with the Soviet threat following the fall of Czechoslovakia, the Berlin blockade in 1948, and the outbreak of the Korean War in 1950, United States policy makers also began to recognize the strategic importance of the Iberian Peninsula; furthermore, they realized that ostracism had failed and that the Franco regime was stronger than ever. The United States government took steps to normalize its political and economic relations with Spain in the years 1948-50. In September 1950, President Truman signed a bill that appropriated US$62.5 million for aid to Spain. In the same year, the United States supported a UN resolution lifting the boycott on Franco's regime and resumed full diplomatic relations with Spain in 1951.
http://www.mongabay.com/history/spain/spain-foreign_policy_under_franco.html
Response to HiPointDem (Reply #74)
HiPointDem This message was self-deleted by its author.
treestar
(82,383 posts)FunkyLeprechaun
(2,383 posts)I have had people in my family who were abused by the church. I bash the church all the time.
The only way the Catholic church can move forward is to expunge people who knowingly let pedophiles run about (Cardinal Law for example).
The abuse was endemic up until the early 2000s, and that was when they got caught, finally.
To call me a bigot just because I don't like the church that protected my pedophile uncle until his dying day is so stupid.
whathehell
(29,034 posts)Tommy_Carcetti
(43,154 posts)Presumably solely by the fact that he is a priest, since there's never been any actual allegations against him of the sort.
Here's one that goes a step further and claims that all Catholics are criminals, even the rank and file:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2377766
trotsky
(49,533 posts)A specific claim was made. I expect specific evidence. Admit you don't have it, or keep trying.
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,154 posts)There's never been any type of actual accusation against him personally of any type of sexual impropriety. Hence, the only reason why someone would say such a thing apparently is because he a priest, and since some priests have been involved in acts of sexual abuse, all priests must be involved in acts of sexual abuse.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)You're drawing conclusions, you don't have a quote.
Hekate
(90,560 posts)Wade through the sewage yourself and stop being dense.
IMO, If you are CATHOLIC you are a criminal. A conspiracy is a conspiracy and this one goes to the top of the religion. You are supporting the largest criminal child molestation ring the world has ever seen. No longer one or two rogue priests,(Or even hundreds) the CONSPIRACY TO MOLEST CHILDREN HAS USED YOUR MONEY AND FAITH to keep EVERYONE IN THE CHURCH IN CHILD SEX. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2377766
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)That's the only thing anyone seems to be able to link to - a LOCKED THREAD. All the cries of anti-Catholic bigotry that allegedly permeates DU, and the only evidence is a locked thread. Which, it should be noted, doesn't say that all priests are pedophiles - the claim I asked *someone* to substantiate. I'll keep waiting, I guess.
Hekate
(90,560 posts)Use the Search function
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Especially when you don't have any facts to back you up.
DaveJ
(5,023 posts)If there are 1.2 billion Catholics in the world, of course they aren't all pedophiles, why do you keep asking that? To think anyone is claiming that is ludicrous.
Obviously what is bothering people is that when a few Catholics are guilty of something, many people seem to blame the entire Catholic church. Why do so few people blame the human race on these things? There obviously is something sick and twisted about people overall, the things they do, and the way some selectively blame religion on their faults, rather than the color of their shoes or whatever. I'm not religious, but I respect people who can believe in something rather than having to deal with reality all the time because reality is sickening.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)That's exactly what I'm saying. I have seen no one make that claim, but plenty of people are screaming that someone DID.
No honest discussion can happen if people won't listen to what people are actually saying.
DaveJ
(5,023 posts)People use the words 'all', 'everyone', 'nobody' in sentences, even if taken literally, that's not what they mean. The conversation can't just cease to progress every time someone uses an absolute word in a sentence in an informal way can it? I might say "the road is slippery" when in fact maybe only small portions are slippery. One can't take things too literally.
Anyway, there are some people who have decided, wrongly imo, that they are not blaming all Catholics, just the Catholic church. It's understandable that would upset some Catholics. It wouldn't make me feel better if someone said I'm not a stupid person but the hat I'm wearing is stupid. It shouldn't matter anyway, when a church is based on the concept that everyone is guilty in the first place, to assign further guilt is kind of pointless anyway.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)If someone had actually said, "All Catholic priests are pedophiles," I would agree that it's bigotry.
If instead someone said "Many Catholic priests have been pedophiles, and the church hierarchy has protected them and given them access to new victims," I don't think that's anti-Catholic bigotry. Do you?
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)so maybe he does not count, but he said that our words must be as precise as possible, the meaning clear and open, the accountability is on the part of the speaker. "Let yes mean yes, let no mean no, for anything more comes from evil'.
I suggest that your desire to claim words do not mean what they mean. All means all. Yes means yes. Everyone means just that, everyone. 'Nobody' means no one. If folks are saying that 'some' means 'all' or that 'all' means 'a few' they are not abiding by the teachings.
If folks want to indict others for words they said, folks need to use the words actually said, not some imagined words or some set of claimed 'other meanings for common words'. To bear false witness is very, very wrong. To claim a person said what they did not say is to tell a lie about that person as well as about the events, false witness is the most damning form of mendacity.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)They should quit the church, it has been said, or they are contributing to the problem. I guess Fr. Judge didn't know he was doing that. He just kept on doing what he believed was required of him, helping people, helping the poor, and in the end, sacrificing his own life for others.
So yes, it has been stated here that if you are still a Catholic you are guilty of supporting pedophilia.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)The OP claimed that someone said all priests are pedophiles. No one has produced a single link to substantiate is claim. All they've been able to do is attack and insult me for asking.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Do you think that if remains an American they are supporting the slaughter and torture of innocent people in Iraq and elsewhere?
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Yes or no?
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)You appeared to dismiss such a gross allegation against Catholics so I asked for clarification which you have not provided.
Ask those who made the claim. It's possible but I have no inclination to go searching through every post made on this subject. I found what I did see personally to be bad enough, maybe even worse than broadbrushing just priests. That was a disgusting thing to say about millions of decent people who in no way support pedophelia.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Claiming that someone said "all priests are pedophiles" is dishonest and harmful to discussion. Agree or disagree?
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)about what has been said and asked if you agreed with it.
You have decided not to comment on that disgusting claim against Catholics so I have to assume you agree with it.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)I'm awaiting an answer to the question I posed first. Then I'll address your question, and I won't engage in passive-aggressive accusations against you.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)got the answer anyhow.
As for 'agreeing' that no one has made the other claim, I have no idea whether they did or not. As I said, address that question to whoever made the claim.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)I addressed a claim that was made in the OP. You have attempted to change the subject, and because I won't let you, you are impugning my character.
Why do you think that kind of behavior is justified? Do you believe it helps, or hinders, attempts at discussion?
kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)are HORRIBLE people without exception and all their religious beliefs are always completely EVIL, and religion should be banned.
THAT'S what the OP is countering.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Yeah, way to lump everyone in with a couple disruptors, and I notice most of the 'evidence' links upthread go to locked threads and hidden posts.
Hit alert, TOS/bigoted remarks, move on. It's not hard. Thins out disruptors quick. Works on disruptors from all walks of life.
kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)hate at each other on DU. Makes me sick. They all ought to be banned. Alerting on either side gets zero results.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Hmmmmm.
Yes, Juries fail from time to time. Hit TOS, for those things that are legit TOS violations, and they will ALSO be reviewed by the admins, not just the Jury.
Evoman
(8,040 posts)I would have to hate most of my family, my fiancee and her family, and half of my friends if that were true.
Thanks for lumping all of us in one group, and then making a blanket statement about us. Ironic that that's what your complaining I'm doing.
kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)BTW, I despise the religious fanatics on DU as much as the atheist fanatics.
A pox on BOTH camps of haters.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)I'd like to see the evidence. Specifically, a post that calls "all" religion "completely" evil, and therefore that it should be "banned." That's the claim you are making (actually, you said that atheistS are "routinely" posting that, so you should at least be able to provide 3 links at a minimum).
Given the behavior I've seen so far, I expect you to personally attack and/or insult me rather than simply produce a single link. Surprise me. Prove yourself better than the evil mean atheist straw man you've created.
kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)And I just created that evil mean atheist straw man to go along with the evil mean religious straw man that already exists on DU.
A pox on BOTH camps of haters.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Take care.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)
The Straight Story
(48,121 posts)
Donald Ian Rankin
(13,598 posts)To be fair, his exact words are " it is reasonable to conclude that one out of every TWO or THREE Church officials were directly involved in abusing children. Given this, it is almost impossible to imagine that there was a Catholic Priest or official anywhere in American who wasn't either abusing children himself, or well aware that it was going on.", which isn't *quite* the same, but is close enough to make no odds.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)I think in these EXTREMELY charged threads, it's more important than ever to make sure claims are not exaggerated. Can we at least agree on this?
Donald Ian Rankin
(13,598 posts)As to exaggeration: I think these threads are highly asymmetrical - there is an immense amount of anti-catholic bigotry flying around, and hence it's important to avoid exaggerating legitimate criticisms of the catholic church (of which there are plenty, few of which are getting much air time amid the welter of "all catholics are guilty of enabling child abuse"
, but I don't actually think it's especially important to avoid exaggeration in the other direction.
I've avoided engaging in it, but it wouldn't much worry me if others did.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)First, is an unsupportable claim.
Second, does not say that all priests are pedophiles, only that all were aware of it going on.
Exaggeration helps no one anywhere on the spectrum of this issue, which is why I first responded in this thread. I'm sorry you think it's justified for some but not everyone. I can't agree with that.
Donald Ian Rankin
(13,598 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)it's OK for some people to exaggerate or simply make up claims, but not for others. That's what I hear you saying.
Donald Ian Rankin
(13,598 posts)
pnwmom
(108,955 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)Be honest. Is it?
pnwmom
(108,955 posts)according to many recent posters.
There's a good reason Drunken Irishman got out. Catholics here are strongly getting the message that they have to choose between their Church or DU.
Fortunately, the Democratic party itself isn't sending that message.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)You're going by your interpretation of what somebody said, not what they actually said.
pnwmom
(108,955 posts)Why was the OP an unjustified "straw man" UNLESS someone had said all priests are pedophiles?
Aren't all the posts accusing a billion Catholics of being enablers enough to justify the OP?
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Please be specific. I asked who said that all priests were pedophiles.
So far, I've been personally attacked and insulted for simply asking that question. But no one has given me an answer.
Do you agree or disagree that when discussing such an obviously emotional and inflammatory topic, that everyone should be as precise and accurate as possible when making claims, instead of broadbrushing and reading what they want into the situation?
Isn't that what you and others are accusing the so-called "anti-Catholic bigots" of doing? Shouldn't you act better than them?
AnotherMcIntosh
(11,064 posts)
LTX
(1,020 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)LTX
(1,020 posts)No one is making any exaggerated claims that the majority of Catholics are evil bastards or enablers of evil bastards:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022544584#post43
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022544584#post49
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022544584#post56
That never happens. Anywhere. Certainly not anywhere that I choose to look.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)You admit that no one said that all priests are pedophiles. So why accuse people of saying that? Criticize what's SAID, not a straw man version.
LTX
(1,020 posts)No language is ever used suggestively. Nobody ever desires that inferences be drawn from their statements. So if nobody said precisely that all priests are pedophiles, then nobody even suggested that they are. And when it is stated that only the “lucky ones” escape sexual assault from priests, with its concomitant suggestion that the Catholic church contains a vastly disproportionate number of pedophiles, one must ignore the mere implications in the absence of precise language stating that all priests are pedophiles.
http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/facts/fm0011.html
Or maybe your only point was a very (very) narrow one that was itself, ironically enough, a nifty “straw-man.”
trotsky
(49,533 posts)no one has been able to point to someone claiming that "all priests are pedophiles."
You have confirmed that. Thank you.
LTX
(1,020 posts)Your's was a very (very) narrow point. So narrow as to be, well, pointless.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Of asking for accuracy when screams of "BIGOTRY" are being thrown around. For this, you are just the latest individual to try and smear me. You've done your good deed for the day!
LTX
(1,020 posts)Interesting point.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Thank you for further illustrating the problem. Please go ahead and get your last word in to somehow make it my fault for asking someone to back up what they said.
LTX
(1,020 posts)
CBHagman
(16,982 posts)...viewable on YouTube or on Watch Instantly at Netflix. It's called The Saint of 9/11 and covers a number of elements of Father Mychal Judge's life, including his ministry to AIDS patients.
I have a friend who is a parish priest and sometimes I remind myself that when I have a bad day, it's because of understaffing or the commute or unexpected assignments. But when he has a bad day, it's a life-and-death matter, such as another shooting in the community he serves.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Well worth watching.
badtoworse
(5,957 posts)Cleita
(75,480 posts)are many good Catholics out there who truly believe in following in the footsteps of Jesus in the work and self sacrifice they do. It's unfortunate that there are those who abused children and overshadows all the good done.
badtoworse
(5,957 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)FunkyLeprechaun
(2,383 posts)There are many "good" Catholic priests like Judge who knew but didn't say anything. That was rife throughout the ranks.
I'm not in any way besmirching Judge's name because he's dead, I'm saying that it's knowledge among former Irish Catholics that major priests kept the abuse secret.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)knew and if he knew he didn't report it to his superior? As a Franciscan he had to report to his order's superior who is supposed to report to the Bishop or Cardinal. You know as well as I if those in the hierarchy didn't do anything there is nothing a parish priest can do outside of his parish. If he was not the priest in charge of his parish, there was nothing he could do except report what he knew to his superior.
liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)He is a hero.
Hekate
(90,560 posts)You give me cause to continue the struggle here.
Kelvin Mace
(17,469 posts)I have had the same argument made to me about "tarring" good cops for the actions of the "few rotten apples".
It isn't a few cops who are corrupt, it is the institution of law enforcement that is corrupted.
While there are "good cops" who don't abuse their power, torture suspects, manufacture evidence, plant drugs/guns, etc, and while those cops are the majority, that majority knows who the bad cops are and tolerates/protects them. You would be very hard pressed to find a cop who would finger a bad cop, the penalty is too high. The penalty is imposed by the institution of law enforcement which sees cops as the personification of the law, rather than enforcers.
The institution of the Catholic church is corrupt, and all the good priests/nuns/parishioners who remain silent about the rot in the church, who fail to DEMAND its excision, are part of the problem.
When a person has cancer, the food and water that person consumes nourishes the cancer cells along with the healthy cells, until such time as the cancer cells are cut out or destroyed. When the person refuses to treat the cancer, there is one, and only one eventual outcome.
Until Catholics start leaving en masse, or at the very least withholding money from the church, nothing will change.
For victims of sexual abuse, it is yet another violation. They see people providing material support and moral credibility to an institution that had been wrong repeatedly, has committed heinous crimes repeatedly, has refused to change and refuses to change. The "good of the church" is placed above the grievous harm they have suffered, and because of that, they are victimized all over again.
No matter how many "good Catholics" there are out there, it does not erase the rape of a single child while the institution refuses to change. And until all the "good Catholics" decide to treat the cancer, they feed it by default.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)problem I had with the institution. It's that I'm not a believer in the Bible, or the Resurrection, which I consider fiction because there seems to be no collaboration for most of the stories told from outside sources to give the Bible some authority as truth. So there fore there is no Abrahamic religion that I can belong to in good faith.
But I went to Catholic schools most of my student life. I lived with the nuns in boarding school and saw how the institution operates close hand. Most of the clergy I knew were hard working and sincere. Yes, they had faults. They were human. Most of the women who taught me, lived frugal lives of self-denial and had given up their own right to have families to educate the children of other people or to administer to them in hospitals.
I knew some mean and awful nuns and priests but they were very few compared to the dedicated ones who had given up their lives to serve God. I owe them a lot. They made me whom I am today and gave me guidance because I got very little of it at home.
Yes, the Church has a big problem by not addressing the fact that some of their own were behaving in a criminal manner and they are going to have to make some big changes from the top down to make this right. But some of the hateful posts coming out this last week are very unfair to the majority who really try hard to live good lives.
Kelvin Mace
(17,469 posts)I had a similar upbringing, but my path led me to conclude that it is all just nonsense.
The way the Church has behaved over the last eleven years of this scandal is unforgivable, even by the Church's own definition, since to be forgiven, one must admit sin and be contrite. The church grudgingly admits sin, then makes excuses (in essence recants), and hasn't an iota of contrition.
If Catholics are upset at all the anger directed at the Church, they should be demanding the Church confess its sins and show GENUINE contrition by releasing ALL internal records on sex abuse, settling abuse lawsuits and accepting liability, and by refusing to shield ANYONE in the Church, up to, and including Ratzinger from the police/courts.
Anything less than this is collusion by inaction, a "sin of omission".
Cleita
(75,480 posts)new Pope address this pretty soon though. He really needs to put those cardinals on trial in the papal court like Cardinal Mahoney as a start. Also, why isn't the Los Angeles City Attorney going after him too? This isn't just a church matter. It's a community matter. Maybe the Church leaders need a little unpleasant scrutiny from the law to make them make the matter a priority.
Kelvin Mace
(17,469 posts)He also needs to make public the report that Ratzinger commissioned that lead to his resignation.
Trying Mahoney would be a start, and also Bernard Law.
I give him to the end of April. If he has not made any substantive move by then, he isn't going to.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)"Los Angeles' retired Cardinal Roger Mahony, who was rebuked last month for his handling of the sex-abuse crisis, suggests he was "scapegoated" in a blog post ahead of two important dates: his Saturday deposition in a lawsuit alleging that the church hierarchy protected a priest accused of molesting children and his trip to Rome to help pick the next pope.
The high-profile "prince of the church" is at the center of an outcry over several scandal-tainted cardinals being allowed to help choose who will succeed Pope Benedict XVI at next month's conclave at the Vatican."
Asking why the County is not prosecuting him is a bit of a distraction from the fact that the RCC keeps him in glory and power. And that is the subject at hand. The fact that so many get upset when a priest is questioned is a fact very helpful to Roger and the other guilty parties.
demosincebirth
(12,529 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)It has paid damages to claimants.
Kelvin Mace
(17,469 posts)And is currently fighting others tooth and nail. It is fighting to keep records secret which reveal more about Church involvement in protecting molesters.
The Church has also allowed the likes of Bill Donohue to attack rape victims and act as the Church's Apologist-in-Chief:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/13/us/catholic-church-pressures-victims-network-with-subpoenas.html?_r=0
Donohue routinely blames victims for their own abuse, and dismisses accusations of pedophilia by simply redefining the term to not apply to children 12 or older.
This man is vile, and yet the Church has NEVER rebuked him or disavowed his views as unChristian.
The Church has NOT dealt with the scandal honestly and is still actively engaged in denying responsibility.
treestar
(82,383 posts)And there are always fraudulent claims in a case like this. They should be able to, or their attorneys, evaluate claims, or anyone could do it.
Kelvin Mace
(17,469 posts)But it certainly has done nothing unless compelled to under legal threat.
Also, there are several venues where the claims are legit and the Church is waging a scorched earth policy against the victims and their lawyers.
The number of "fraudulent" accusations against the Church are fractional compared to the documented crimes.
SunSeeker
(51,513 posts)Paying damages to some litigants is more than nothing, but is far from "dealing with it."
treestar
(82,383 posts)It less horrible than it is. It is out there now and there can be more being done than paying out on lawsuits.
BrotherIvan
(9,126 posts)I really believe you have gotten to the heart of the matter. And in no way can anyone claim this argument is Catholic bashing or bigotry.
I do not begrudge people their faith, and what seems more important to them, the traditions in which they were raised. But I suppose the attacks have gotten so virulent on this board because Catholics and their defenders have been digging in their heels, defending their right to hold on to tradition, holding up all the virtuous people and the good they do. Critics would like to see some kind of definite stance that child abuse, homophobia, misogyny and many other atrocities are WRONG and will not be tolerated, up to and including a willingness to leave the church and withdraw all support if these wrongs are not corrected and the offenders punished.
Sometimes some things are so heinous, so wrong that there should be no equivocating, no, "Yes, but," no wiggle room whatsoever. What many Catholics see on this board as an attack or some kind of bigotry is a reaction by people, and in this I will include myself, who are wondering why there isn't a vigorous demand for justice by all Catholics? Why is there dancing and celebration for the new pope rather than marches on the vatican demanding change?
The institution of slavery was not bad for the slave owners and white society. It brought prosperity and a genteel beauty from the mixing of cultures that does not exist anywhere else in the United States. It was a tradition and a way of life that could not be separated from the Southern identity spanning generations. Not all the people who enjoyed the fruits of slavery were bad or evil. Many of them were kind, gentle and loving, people who helped their neighbors and did good works in the community. Not everyone treated their slaves badly and some even educated or gave them positions of responsibility or let them live with the family and play with their children. Even those who did not own slaves were complicit because they lived in a society whose wealth was built upon the institution. Just turning a blind eye, letting things slide. But everything was tainted by the evil of the enslavement of a human being. It took people standing up, abolitionists who gave their lives to stand up and say, No, this is wrong and must not be tolerated. They were preaching a sermon that no one wanted to hear, that slave owners must give up some of their wealth and privilege because it was built on an evil institution. And because the abolitionists were so clear and steadfast in making the world see that slavery was in every way an abomination, they helped to truly change attitudes and eventually led to the idea that if slave owners would not do so voluntarily, they would be forced to do what is right.
So when the charge is made that someone who goes to church and gives donations is complicit, it is that unconscious feeling that the only way for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. It is hard to give up comfort and tradition and good memories. It may be hard to risk the disdain of family and friends. It's so much easier to put one's head down and not take a stand. But if more Catholics took an unequivocal stand and demanded justice from the church leaders, change would come.
Kelvin Mace
(17,469 posts)and puts me in mind of what is missing from the Catholic Church, a Bishop/Cardinal William Lloyd Garrison. Where is the Church leader who will stand up and say about the Church's crimes what Garrison said about slavery?
"I will be as harsh as truth, and as uncompromising as justice. On this subject, I do not wish to think, or to speak, or write, with moderation. No! no! Tell a man whose house is on fire to give a moderate alarm; tell him to moderately rescue his wife from the hands of the ravisher; tell the mother to gradually extricate her babe from the fire into which it has fallen; — but urge me not to use moderation in a cause like the present. I am in earnest — I will not equivocate — I will not excuse — I will not retreat a single inch — AND I WILL BE HEARD.”
BrotherIvan
(9,126 posts)Just what I was talking about.
AnotherMcIntosh
(11,064 posts)that we have to now demonstrate loyalty to the Church, disregard logic and facts, and either defend the Catholic Church on only-a-few-bad-apples theory or make efforts to squelch the views of others.
I particularly agree with your statement:
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,154 posts)The Catholic Church is a complex organization. Most Catholics do not get involved with their church beyond the local levels, and typically your local church is viewed very positively by its parishoners.
It's not that hard to understand that despite the actions of some in the heirarchy, ordinary rank and file Catholics do not want to turn their backs on their local church that they love and involve themselves in.
So asking Catholics to leave their church because the actions of some at the top is pretty much a non-starter for most, myself included.
Kelvin Mace
(17,469 posts)Ethical Americans should REFUSE to pay any taxes to a government that has committed war crimes in their name. But we don't, because (fill in a long list of practical reasons here). They should do all in their power to hold accountable those who were responsible.
However, we don't, and for any number of justifiable reasons.
But, while explaining why those myriad reasons why we should NOT do what ethics and morality demand, we should never lose sight of the fact that if we refuse to do what is ethical and moral, then the blame is on our backs.
If you work in the tobacco business in any capacity, up to and including selling someone a pack of cigarettes, you are profiting from the harm and death that befalls your fellow man. I understand and sympathize with the tobacco farmer who tells me that it is the only way he can make a living. He has to feed his family. But, he should NEVER delude himself into denying his culpability in the sickness and death he is part of, that the food he feeds his family comes from selling death.
There are lots of reasons a person can offer for NOT leaving the Church, for continuing to support the institution and its work. But in the end, unless you are voicing your objections and demanding accountability/reform at every service, every function, you are enabling the Church to abuse children and protect molesters, just as I have the blood of innocent Iraqis on my hands because I continue to be a "good citizen" and attempt to change the system from within.
The men, women and children are still maimed or dead because I failed to stop what happened to them, yet I continue to live in and support the mechanism which murdered and maimed them.
I know that is not what you want to read, but it is why I left the Church. My tacit support of war crimes, no matter how unwilling or justifiable was bad enough, without adding child rape.
BrotherIvan
(9,126 posts)I find it strange that so many on DU who do all they can to vehemently oppose wrongs in the political arena show great reluctance when it comes to Catholicism. But to answer the question, there ARE many here who scream to the rooftops about the wrongs being done in the name of Americans. They protest, they are active trying to get bad apples out, there are outcries for justice against the bankster criminals, there is an obvious struggle. We talk about Republicans and gun nuts who hold so fast to their traditions and praise of might over right, at the expense of all else, including reason, and that is not called bigotry. But somehow it's considered bigotry to criticize the institution of the church.
I believe the analogy you are making is incorrect. Leaving this country for another involves leaving family, home, job, and possibly language and culture behind in hopes of finding a country that won't actively try to keep you out (I don't know of many). Leaving the church implies you don't walk into a particular building on Sunday.
In religion, there are many factions; people who have broken off and created a new denomination when they disagree with the central power structure. Maybe I haven't heard, and maybe there are, lots of ex-Catholics who are forming new churches in protest, churches centered around this well-touted concern for the poor without also enslaving them by refusing access to birth control which keeps them in perpetual poverty or fails to halt the spread of disease. Churches which do preach love instead of bigotry and misogyny. Churches that solve the problem of child abuse by allowing priests to marry or women to be ordained and becomes transparent in dealing with the problem. All these things the Catholic church needs to do to solve its ills but refuses to do. I always wish those nuns on the bus who seem so smart and so caring would leave the church and all those who oppose the atrocities the hierarchy continues to perpetuate would go with them. That is exactly what Jesus did. He was a revolutionary and the old guard didn't much like it. But instead the nuns were chastised and put in their place.
The church has used the threat of excommunication far too long to silence those that speak out and try to change it from within. But it seems like if many voices spoke out all at once, their voices could not be silenced. Or better yet, if the church lost a great deal of its membership, there could be the evolution for which many Catholics seem to hope, but are content to obediently sit by and wait.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Cleita
(75,480 posts)Thanks for posting.
Whisp
(24,096 posts)a member of the RCC?
I haven't been much into the many threads here, but that really is my question and I haven't seen an answer to it.
I don't have to list the very many and awful things the church has done and is still doing. What makes a person still be loyal knowing what's on that horrible list? What is it that the church offers you that is so good/important that one would ignore their progressive values and still remain a member and defend the church?
That's the part I do not understand. There was an OP here that people are born into their religions, and can't really help it, but that's horseshit.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)Irish were persecuted about for hundreds of years. When your people were killed and tortured because of their religion, it becomes an identity. He probably wanted to dedicate his life to God by being a priest and because he was Irish there was only one choice.IMHO
Whisp
(24,096 posts)I was mostly asking about 'why' generically and not specifically about Mychal.
Why do you think regular, good people, progressive people, still are loyal to a church that is so very regressive and hurt so many people? When I say 'church' I mean the bosses, not the worker bees buzzing around the collection plate.
it sort of reminds me of some football club loyalities lately. Where nothing else matters except the team, no matter what the team or it's coaches have done.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)I know my mother took comfort in religion when she was dying from cancer and it was the religious who came and visited her and helped her out when no one else would.
I mean, why just Catholics? I find Mormons have a lot of abusive beliefs and I heard stories from friends of mine who were Baptists of how their pastors sometimes beat them with switches.
Whisp
(24,096 posts)that I should have known, maybe did but have forgotten.
Yeh, I can see it that way.
FunkyLeprechaun
(2,383 posts)There were a lot of Irish priests that abused children- Judge himself probably knew about it but couldn't say anything because of the church.
I know, I'm Irish and I have had family in Ireland that were abused by the church there.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)with untreated mental illnesses. I had a principal that made my life a living Hell for awhile, but most of us survived. I understand there was abuse there within the church, but the Irish have come a long way in fighting back and making their Church do the right thing. That's what it takes. I'm sorry you are so bitter about it and that it happened to you, but it shouldn't cast a shadow on those Church religious who do the right thing and try to make the world a better place and that was certainly Father Mychal. He sacrificed his life trying to save others. That's the ultimate good deed.
demosincebirth
(12,529 posts)or deacon, was ever anything but supportive of me and my fellow students all through school. We might have been, at times, over disciplined, but looking back I deserved every crack on the knuckles that I got. They tried to instill in us good values, but what they really emphasized was helping the most in need in our society...the poor.
There are many rotten apples in an organization of over one billion people that does more for helping the least in our society than any other organization. How can one condemn the organization?
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)The other poster is incorrect that he was born in Ireland. I will assume the mistake is unintentional, but it was used to build an entire platform of rationalization and it is not correct. Brooklyn, not Ireland.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)So let's stick with facts, that would be so helpful. You foist an incorrect 'fact' and then use that to build an entire set of reasoning about the man. But he was not born in Ireland. Born in Brooklyn.
If we can not learn the facts, why pretend to care?
Cleita
(75,480 posts)it because the basic premise is true. He's first generation Irish American and if you read the links I posted, it states he spent a lot of time visiting in Ireland every chance he got which pretty is pretty much in line with my point. I saw the mistake and since no one was worried about it, I decided to leave it up to see who would finally correct it. You were the only one and very rude about it too.
RiffRandell
(5,909 posts)Thank you for posting.
Paladin
(28,243 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)a good thing for perspective. People seem to want to define the whole church by the pedophile scandal.
NYC Liberal
(20,135 posts)It's unfortunate that he and others choose to align themselves with and belong to such a bigoted organization.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)They were integrating black and hispanic children in the schools long before the public schools were doing it. You can accuse them of being sexist and patriarchal but not bigoted. btw the church is not anti-gay either. They recognize it's inborn not acquired. They are against gay sex, but they don't shun gays or mistreat them because they are gay.
NYC Liberal
(20,135 posts)It would have people deny a fundamental part of who they are (their sexuality) in a way that they do not demand of others.
It considers homosexuality to be a disorder.
Both are bigoted positions, and any political party or politician in the US who held either view would be universally condemned here (and rightfully so).
Cleita
(75,480 posts)considered a mortal sin, one you go to Hell for. Because they believe it's for procreation, it's denied to a lot of people. If you get divorced, you can't remarry or have sex, so if you are a true believer and can't get an annulment you have to be celibate the rest of your life.
NYC Liberal
(20,135 posts)The Church opposes marriage equality, and that is a bigoted position (and yes, it was a bigoted position when Obama held it), hence their position is that if you're gay, you must completely deny a fundamental part of who you are.
So no, their position is not the same for everyone.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)If you marry outside the Church, it's considered bigamy and you could face excommunication not to mention burn in Hell. It's in the Catechism.
NYC Liberal
(20,135 posts)if your bishop found out and were so inclined.
The entire membership of Planned Parenthood in Lincoln, NE, was excommunicated a little while back.
If others want to belong to that kind of organization, that's their choice. I refuse to.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)Francis on equality for gay people:
"Let’s not be naïve, we’re not talking about a simple political battle; it is a destructive pretension against the plan of God. We are not talking about a mere bill, but rather a machination of the Father of Lies that seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God."
: http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/2013/03/is-there-hope-for-francis-on-gay-rights.html#ixzz2NzvrBd4I
"a machination of the Father of Lies that seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God"
And in terms of 'shunning' is it not true that sacraments are denied to gay people as well as to those who are pro choice?
"In fact, American bishops submitted amicus briefs in support of California’s Proposition 8, which banned same-sex marriage there, and of the Defense of Marriage Act, which prevents the federal government from acknowledging same-sex marriages that are legal in a state. In the briefs, they pose the legal issue in stark terms: throwing out laws against gay marriage by applying the “heightened scrutiny” standard that judges use on other discriminatory laws “would compromise the ability of states to accommodate religious and moral objections to homosexual conduct on the part of employers and individuals"
Note the mention of 'employers' which clearly means they want the right to discriminate, mistreat, gay employees at will, for being gay, which is the case in most States right now.
Read more: http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/2013/03/is-there-hope-for-francis-on-gay-rights.html#ixzz2NzxNenpV
Cleita
(75,480 posts)across the board outside of marriage and not for procreation. Father Mychal was himself openly gay and worked with AIDs patients. Where do you get your information? Many Catholics are pro-choice and if they are openly shunned and denied communion I've never heard of it? I still socialize with practicing Catholics including some clergy and it doesn't happen. Maybe with some extreme Opus Dei factions, but they are fringing conservatives like our Tea Baggers.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)Cleita
(75,480 posts)rules about divorce and premarital sex. Both are considered sins. Divorce is forbidden although a lot of rich Catholics get around it by getting annulments and premarital sex is considered living in sin and if you marry without the Sacrament of marriage it is also considered living in sin, which means you can't receive communion until you go to confession and promise to sin no more. It's the same with being gay. If you confess and promise not to have gay sex, you can receive communion. Nobody thinks you have to pray the gay away first.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)in trying to ban contraception, abortion, same-sex marriage, civil rights laws for LGBT people, etc.
Why those, and not premarital sex and divorce, why don't they lobby for banning those?
Cleita
(75,480 posts)Many other Churches are involved in that and our government really needs to start enforcing the division of Church and State as set out in our Constitution. So if you don't like the lobbying get your government officials on board and make them do this or replace them in office with your phone calls, your contributions and ultimately your vote.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)them and the Mormon Church are the two biggest contributors to NOM, and both churches are, by definition homophobic, along with a lot of other churches.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)dismayed with the out and out hatred expressed. Many of our DUers are Catholics and I have crossed swords with them many times about Church issues, but the bigotry and anti-Catholicism that has gone on here this last week isn't even worthy of Free Republic. Also, I have criticized Mormons on many occasions, yet I have been friends with Mormons and had Mormon bosses and co-workers. Those were actually some of the best work situations I have had and I have worked for fifty years.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)a suicide attempt she tried to commit once because of the lack of support she got from her own damn parents.
Just because you have pleasant experiences from members of a particular church doesn't absolve that church from responsibility for its actions or teachings. The fact that you feel it is worthy of defense is puke worthy.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)religious one? How many people don't often get support from their parents for what choices they make in life. Do they all try to commit suicide? One of my cousins was gay and the only family member who accepted him was me and we are a family of various religious traditions. His own father disowned him but not because of religious beliefs. He did not try to commit suicide and lived his gay life style as he pleased. Some family members came around and some didn't and he was estranged from his father the rest of his life. It's life and has little to do with what religious beliefs people have.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)Ever heard of the "It gets better campaign"? Or about the fact that LGBT teens are many times more likely to commit or attempt to commit suicide due to religious, familial and other pressures versus everyone else?
Also the fact that you call it a "gay lifestyle" makes me think you really don't belong on DU.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)No amount of logic or facts can change this. How dare you suggest I don't belong on DU? That is not your judgement to make. What makes you think you are so deserving to be on DU with your very narrow mind about other people's religions?
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)board?
Not to mention fighting against all anti-discrimination laws that protect people based on sexual orientation based on flawed "religious freedom" bullshit.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)people than many other Churches. If you don't acknowledge that you aren't looking at reality. As far as marriage, the Catholic Church does not single out gays. Any body who has been previously married in the Church and divorced cannot marry either. Priests and other religious cannot marry. Also, the Catholic Church denies the Sacrament of marriage not marriage itself. You may go out and marry in front of a judge or a minister and still be able to go to mass on Sunday and nobody is going to shun you. You just won't be able to receive communion, but a lot of people can't receive communion on Sunday for a variety of reasons because they are not in the State of Grace not just because they are gay or divorced. I believe one of these days the Church will allow gay marriage meaning the sacrament of marriage. They will come to that conclusion because denying a Sacrament to someone who wants it and has no real reason not to receive it, is not what they want to do. It will take time, but if activists are really sincere, they will go through the process of pressuring the Curia to do something about this.
btw studies have found that a larger percentage than the average population of the clergy are gay.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_and_Roman_Catholic_priests
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)force of law, or was the 2+ million dollars that the Catholic Church donated to anti-equal marriage and civil union activism in this country this past election cycle just to distribute cookies?
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)I lost several friends on 9/11 and I count him as one of them.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)What a memory to have met a true hero.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)Cleita
(75,480 posts)the Franciscan order, he was very much a part of the Church.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)Just so you can pretend a little more that Catholics are persecuted victims?
As I said: Not Catholics; the Church. Please try and parse the meaning of my post again.
(BTW: Baptized & Confirmed at the Nativity of the Blessed Virgin Mary Church. Went to school there, my sister was married there, my mother was buried out of there. Don't even TRY to stoop to accusing me of "bashing" Catholics.)
caseymoz
(5,763 posts)Nobody is telling to go to the back of the bus.
Nobody is telling you that you can't worship.
Your job is not in peril because your Catholic.
People disagreeing with the dogma of your church-- especially as it's wanting to impose it on us-- citing its history and saying its record is not good, that's not Catholic bashing. Period.
To bring up the exemplary Catholic to counter purported persecution (people don't agree with my faith! boo hoo) is simply tasteless, and a bit ghoulish at that.
demosincebirth
(12,529 posts)baldguy
(36,649 posts)Last edited Mon Mar 18, 2013, 08:34 PM - Edit history (1)
Criticism of the Church is not criticism of each & every individual Catholic. It never has been.
demosincebirth
(12,529 posts)baldguy
(36,649 posts)While *I* specifically am not.
demosincebirth
(12,529 posts)baldguy
(36,649 posts)Let's see how far out there your bigotry goes. With any luck you'll hang yourself with it.
caseymoz
(5,763 posts)Nobody told a Catholic here that they can't work, that they should have separate public facilities, that they should wear armbands, that they can't freely worship, that they can't own property . . . nobody has said anything like that.
We disagree with your church. That disagreement is aggravated by your church trying to impose its dogma on nonbelievers. Does it occur to you that when you have faith in a specific dogma, that's going to look eccentric to people who don't share it?
But I would challenge you to find anybody who argues for bigotry against Catholicism, going by the examples I've given above.
This persecution complex is getting pretty irritating. Maybe having your dogma questioned raises your blood pressure, but must you share your malady with everyone?
But there is obviously no place for reasonable discussion on this topic. If you don't agree that DU is overrun with vicious anti-Catholic bigotry calling every Catholic a pedophile, then obviously you are also an anti-Catholic bigot.
This is what passes for discussion? What the hell is wrong with everyone?
baldguy
(36,649 posts)Usually by people who are rather stupid & insecure in themselves.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)baldguy
(36,649 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)duck/dodge the bigger issues, IMO.
renate
(13,776 posts)It was lovely. I also watched "The Saint of 9-11" and, like the article, it made me aspire to be a tenth of the person that Mychal Judge was.
colorado_ufo
(5,730 posts)Thank you, Father Myke, for giving such an example and for leading the way.
sulphurdunn
(6,891 posts)are not pedophiles and that many priests are righteous men in no way diminishes the fact that enough priests are pedophiles for the Church hierarchy to have attempted to cover it up for years.
Dorian Gray
(13,479 posts)Thanks for pointing out the obvious. That there are many great Catholics who work hard to protect and to serve other people. There are assholes, of course. I don't blame anyone for taking a poke at the hierarchy. But there are many others who are great.
DaveJ
(5,023 posts)Nobody else did. I think what's confusing people is that some people are assuming they can control the behavior of their 1+ billion members. I mean if I have a company that makes hats, should I apologize for everything people do who wear my hats? Rhetorical question. Some people don't get rhetorical questions. Anyway, they are not a police force, they are focused on spirituality and all that stuff, from what I understand....
Kelvin Mace
(17,469 posts)PEOPLE helped you, who just happened to be part of the Catholic Church.
LEADERS, i.e. people, within the Church made a decision to help people like you. I am not expecting the Church to control the behavior of its 1+ billion members, since the "Church" is an abstract concept. I expect the Church's LEADERS to control their own behavior, and to do what is moral and decent. When the leadership refuses to do this, the "Church" is no longer a positive force, unless someone can explain to me the exchange rate of how many homeless people helped, cancels out the rape of a single child.
no_hypocrisy
(46,026 posts)I always remember him but make it a point to visit him too.
Brigid
(17,621 posts)Thank you for this thread.
MellowDem
(5,018 posts)Criticizing DU Catholics for associating themselves with a bigoted organization is not bigotry or Catholic bashing.
Saying that "good people" can be Catholics does nothing to address these criticisms.
Father Mychal's good works does not stop me from criticzing him for supporting and being part of an organization that is fundamentally bigoted.
There are many "good people" that are conservatives, even some that have given their lives for others, and yet you use this disgusting tactic Gulliani perfected to somehow try to shutup all legitimate criticism. Shame.
The VAST majority of threads and responses criticizing Catholics or the Catholic church have not been bigoted, but legitimate criticisms. None of those say Catholics are all pedophiles, or that all Catholics are evil. Good people associate themselves with bigoted organizations all the time, and this site, DU, criticizes those people for doing so all the time. The only difference now? It's religion, and some people can't handle that yet. This thread is a giant strawman.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Eg, Father Judge had zero to do with the crimes committed by what is a camparatively small % of people who belonged to the Catholic Church. He is no more responsible than members of any other organization with a similar % of criminals, including Religious organizations, and probably less than the number of criminals who have been running this country.
Let us know when you take responsibility for the war criminals and the Wall Street criminals who have murdered and tortured and robbed millions of innocent people, in your name. Why are you still living in a country that has committed so many crimes against people who did nothing to them? You, by your logic, are responsible for those crimes, you help pay for them if you live and work here. You could leave as so many other people do and have done for centuries. But if you choose to stay here, then, according to your logic, you are responsible for those crimes.
What an utterly ridiculous statement that is. Are you aware of the statistics of this kind of behavior in other organizations? Should everyone follow your logic, there would be no one living in the US and no organizations of any kind.
I hope you don't use any of our big banks, or buy products made by slave labor and children. Unless you are completely pure yourself, and if you live in this country, you are not, then it would be a good idea to refrain from judging others.
BellaLuna
(291 posts)Because she believes it's the only way people are going wake up, rise up and try to change things. She completely understands the criticism of the Church. yes, it hurts her to hear it - but she gets it.
Wanna know what she does instead of whining? She reminds people it's not the 'people' aka leadership, that make up the CHURCH - it's the faith, and if you owe it to your faith to stand up and fight for it.
Buck up people and quit whining - who cares what haters say - you're giving them too much power over you. Embrace the chance to make your voices heard with this new leader. Time will tell with Pope Francis - but now is the time to start demanding accountability instead of getting feelings hurt.
She would tell you Jesus himself endured worse treatment than his followers - funny how people would rather whine than follow His lead.
SunSeeker
(51,513 posts)Why don't all the good people of the Catholic Church rise up against the hateful hierarchy that has perverted Jesus' teachings and their beloved Church?
Jesus was all about ministering to the least of us, not stopping abortion, female clergy or gays from marrying. Yet the Vatican sits on a mountain of gold while many of its own flock starve, obsessed with denouncing abortion, birth control, marriage equality and pursuing an inquisition against the Nuns on th Bus. I guess they want to save their money to pay child rape judgments.
The Catholic Church is a huge missed opportunity to make the world a better place. Its hierarchy have failed its people horrifically. Yet the people stay loyal and do not challenge the hierarchy. That's where they lose me.
musette_sf
(10,199 posts)Lord, take me where You want me to go,
let me meet who You want me to meet,
tell me what You want me to say,
and keep me out of Your way.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)"A September 11th Hijacking
By Dennis Lynch*
Victims of the September 11th Hijackers were not just people. One victim of the September 11th hijackers was the truth about a Catholic Priest. This is the story how homosexual activists hijacked the truth about Father Mychal Judge.
Yet, as typical with activists, the truth about someone never stood in their way to advance their agenda. This was true with the homosexual activists who saw in Father Mike’s heroic death a chance to attack the Catholic Church. It didn’t matter if what they said about Father Mike wasn’t true. All that matters is that a heroic, celibate, faithful Catholic Priest could become a homosexual icon. This is how it happened."
http://www.catholic.org/featured/headline.php?ID=19
datasuspect
(26,591 posts)and a lee greenwood soundtrack.
Zoeisright
(8,339 posts)amuse bouche
(3,657 posts)It doesn't make the church any less despicable.
Taverner
(55,476 posts)Kinda Christlike, really. One Priest dies for all the others' sins... 
Cleita
(75,480 posts)For every Father Mychal there are many more like him that no one speaks of. But it's the pedophiles that get all the attention and frankly statistically, percentage wise there are no more pedophiles among the priesthood than there is in the population at large including among coaches and athletes. The big issue is that the Church hierarchy wouldn't face up to it and do something about it. That is the thing that needs to be taken care of. There should be zero tolerance in the Church and population at large for this especially in the Church.
Here's an article by about it and a quote from the article;
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/thomas-g-plante-phd-abpp/clergy-sex-abuse-report-l_b_866789.html
Taverner
(55,476 posts)You presented the story of the Fireman Chaplain as something that should redeem Catholicism from all of the abuse claims. It doesn't.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)I put that particular story up because most people are familiar with it. I think all this Catholic bashing has gotten out of hand. It's no different than attacking dwarfs because they are short.
Taverner
(55,476 posts)But...they could at least apologize. They won't.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)Last edited Tue Mar 19, 2013, 04:54 PM - Edit history (1)
They need to institute policies of zero tolerance for this kind of thing with swift punishment for the abusers. However, I wonder if it will turn into a Jane Fonda scenario? No matter how much she apologizes for North Viet Nam, people still think she hasn't apologized enough. From reading this thread and others, it seems to be headed in that direction.
judesedit
(4,437 posts)Response to Cleita (Original post)
ChairmanAgnostic This message was self-deleted by its author.
SunSeeker
(51,513 posts)Cleita
(75,480 posts)hierarchy and the holiest of men and women are not the ones who get to the top.
davehall
(2 posts)The fact that Mychal could have stayed outside the WTC put instead ran into the building with the first responders makes him a hero in my eyes. And while giving last rites to a dying fireman he was killed along with so many others. Actually, all the first responders are heroes. Thanks for their dedication-RIP.
