Porn is mostly Base and Unlikable Stuff

[cthulu2016]

It does, on balance and when widely available, coarsen and cheapen and degrade culture and human relations.

Nobody needs to like porn. Nobody should like most of it, and nobody is required to like any of it.

It is, on its merits, not likable.

And it is a damn shame that there is not a technological fix to make it less available to the very young on the internet that is not just a censorship stalking-horse. (Akin to abortion clinic 'regulations')

That said, anyone who thinks it should be banned should be jailed, by their own logic, because banning porn is at least as hostile to human dignity as porn is.

People who want to ban it are reactionary bigots. And dressing that kind of hateful right wing spasm up as progressive is about as interesting as some sophist's "progressive case for restricting voting along ethnic lines" would be. It's not the label, it's the result.

There is no benign, forward-thinking, useful, worthwhile or humanitarian case for censorship of adult erotica, despite it being awful crap.

And people in agreement with the Family Research Council are not good people... having a "better" motive for the same action doesn't do it. The "good" censors are like torture advocates... torture advocates never advocate torturing the WRONG people. They advocate torturing the "right" people.

And folks who want to censor the "right" things are malicious book-burning primitives, in the same way that people who want to torture the "right" people are primitive sadistic thugs.

Civilized people oppose censorship knowing full fucking well that not every human expressive work is good or helpful or likable.

Duh.

Censorship advocates belong in the Republican Party with all the other atavistic authoritarian crack-pots.

There is no need to defend porn. It's mostly awful.

I do not defend the RW bug-a-boo of getting an abortion for eye-color. I defend choice as choice as choice, and I do not care what unlikable instances the RW can dream up to muddy the issue.

Defending CHOICE is rather binary. You don't defend choice by having a panel of concerned citizens decide which abortions they think are benign... see, that would not be CHOICE.

It would be regulation by a panel of people who think they have a right to get together and decide which abortions they think are okay.

Maybe that would be "better" in some view, but it wouldn't be choice and if those people ran around saying they were not crazy reactionary monsters against CHOICE because they approved MOST abortions then we would all have a good laugh.

If you favor torture when YOU think torture appropriate then you are PRO-TORTURE.

If you favor censorship when YOU think censorship appropriate then you are PRO-CENSORSHIP.


And to the many who may be offended by this... why? Do you favor censoring or restricting anything? If not, you are not the sort of primitive individual described herein. It doesn't apply to you.

And if so... then that's just what it is. Shoe fits, and all that.

[BeyondGeography]

1. What's torture is all the porn pronouncements today

Make it stop.

[JaneyVee]

2. I agree. No need to ban porn, no need for censorship.

[Rex]

3. And yet it is a billion dollar industry.

And the most watched 'thing' on the Internets. I wish there was less of it on the WWW. However what people do in the privacy of their own home is none of my business. I just hope their kids are not watching it at 3am and taking notes.

[brooklynite]

45. Maybe because...people want it?

Easy to blame "the industry", but the demand has existed for millenia.

[Rex]

48. Oh I agree, there would be no billion dollar industry without demand.

Jesus let Mary Magdalene (a known prostitute) wash his feet with her hair.

However, I don't think it is the oldest profession in the world, that would be war imo. I think things have changed though SINCE those times and with the information age we see a dangerous rise between dehumanization via machines for easy sexual pleasure and actual military application of dehumanization via machines for war via drone strikes.

How we change will define what we are as a species and it seem with technology we can radically alter just about anything we want to. Will we hold onto our humanity or will we become creatures of technology? Of course all my opinion, but I think we are heading in the wrong direction as a biological entity. Maybe we will change that too in the future.

[ismnotwasm]

4. Have you seen

The Q&A from Kevin Smith on the movie Red State? Based on the Fred Phellps family, Red State is a significant departure from the style of his previous movies.

But his Q&A is hilarious, Phelps's family protested the crap out of that movie, and rather than promoting censoring, (now THAT would be a picture, coming from Kevin Smith)or even objecting, Smith formed a counter protest. His descriptions of those and his relationship with the Phelps is Hilarious. He finds what they stand for abhorrent. How he managed it was art.

I know this isn't about porn-- I'm done with porn today, but it is about censorship and alternatives to objecting to horrible ideas or behavior that don't violate free speech.

Censorship is not the answer even if it sounds like a good idea at the time.

[Taverner]

5. You just haven't found the right porn yet

I am a believer that porn, sexuality, catharsis and release are essential to human happiness. Without it, we bottle everything else inside, and become ticking time bombs.

[geek tragedy]

13. Porn isn't necessary to sexuality, catharsis and release nt

[Taverner]

15. For some of us it is, and it's not your call

My body, my self, my porn

[geek tragedy]

17. Certainly, but the statement "you just haven't found the right porn" is similarly

intrusive on someone else's sexuality.

[Taverner]

18. That was just a joke

My fail...

[geek tragedy]

19. understood, peace nt

[Jersey Devil]

6. What's with all the posts about porn?

Seriously, not trying to put down these posts about a serious subject, but what caused them to suddenly pop up on DU? Was there a story or study reported in the news recently about porn that I missed?

[Salviati]

9. I think it is in response to this post/article

or at least the current flareup is:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2531792

[snooper2]

11. It's getting close to the end of the month...

[Taverner]

16. Porn always angers the weak

[riderinthestorm]

25. Or not. Porn elicits concern. Shutting down conversations about it is the weak thing imho

Making Porn hurts like hell

The performers may look like they're in ecstasy, but the physical pain and endurance that goes into sex for the camera would make an NFL linebacker weep. By Aurora Snow


http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/03/18/blood-sweat-and-sex-my-hard-life-in-porn.html

I'm also concerned about the pain and slave labor conditions of "consenting adults" in Asia. Is that weak or progressive?

[Taverner]

26. So does building houses, cleaning trucks and demolishing buildings

[riderinthestorm]

30. I have no idea what you mean by this. Are you implying we shouldn't be concerned about their pain?

Or their working conditions?

That we can't discuss say, asbestos removal when demolishing a building because pointing out the bad shit is somehow... weak?

[randome]

35. A lot of porn companies are owned and operated by women.

And for the more, uh-hem, professional outfits, I would think they take great care of their actors and actresses.

[riderinthestorm]

44. Did you read the link in post 25? I'm not sure why it matters if owners are male or female nt

[randome]

47. I did now. I only meant that some of the more 'professional' outfits...

...may take better care of their performers. And some types of porn are all about pain anyways, not the kind that comes from overuse of one's genitals.

Not trying to be 'in favor' of porn, just pointing out that it comes in many, many different forms.

[brooklynite]

46. Nobody proposed banning the construction industry...

[riderinthestorm]

53. And where have I ever, one time, proposed banning the porn industry?

Personally, I think the OP is building a strawman implying that DU posters are putting up this great hue and cry to ban porn.

Its always the segue however whenever a conversation even begins about porn.

[brooklynite]

57. You personally?

You haven't. Plenty of people have.

[LanternWaste]

66. Porn always excites the weaker.

Porn always excites the weaker.

[seabeyond]

80. if you HAVE to have porn to release, i dont think you have a place to call others weak. lmao.

"that porn, sexuality, catharsis and release are essential to human happiness."

" Porn isn't necessary to sexuality, catharsis and release"

" For some of us it is, and it's not your call"

[LittleBlue]

7. Throwbacks to puritanism

Ironically, it's about control. They feel like they must control the behavior of others. Used to think it was a trait with the fundamentalist religious crowd. NOPE!

[geek tragedy]

27. Who is 'they?' nt

[LittleBlue]

52. Whoever wishes to ban legal porn or restrict expression. n/t

[Floyd_Gondolli]

8. I guess I missed the memo

What's the context behind the numerous porn threads on DU today?

[RandiFan1290]

10. Because of another post on the first page

all of these posters think their opinion is so important that they all have to start their own thread about it...

[geek tragedy]

12. Questions re: the unqualified condemnation of those who want to 'ban' porn

That said, anyone who thinks it should be banned should be jailed, by their own logic, because banning porn is at least as hostile to human dignity as porn is.

People who want to ban it are reactionary bigots. And dressing that kind of hateful right wing spasm up as progressive is about as interesting as some sophist's "progressive case for restricting voting along ethnic lines" would be. It's not the label, it's the result.

1) Is it possible to be a decent liberal/progressive human being and think it should be regulated?

2) Is it possible to be a decent liberal/progressive human being and think SOME kinds/genres of porn should be banned? E.g. animal, snuff, rape, simulated kiddie porn.

3) If the answer to (2) is yes, what draws the line between a rational ban on some kinds of porn and a bigoted ban on others?

[LittleBlue]

21. "Is it possible to be a decent liberal/progressive human being and think SOME kinds/genres of porn?"

No.

And I find it sick that you're comparing kiddie porn (rape) to adults consenting to do porn. There is not a single person taking the position that animals and children should be raped, the question is whether porn should be restricted or banned between consenting adults.

What kind of person are you to bring in child sexual predators into this discussion?

[geek tragedy]

24. You distorted what I said.

I did not compare actual child porn to regular porn. I asked whether it's within the realm of civilized thought to favor a ban on porn where there is simulated child rape, i.e. a fully consenting and compensated adult actor or actress playing an underage child, or whether the only decent and rational position a person may have is that such material must be legal.

[LittleBlue]

31. It's not remotely civilized to wonder whether children should be legally raped or molested

Or animals, for that matter.

I asked whether it's within the realm of civilized thought to favor a ban on porn where there is simulated child rape, i.e. a fully consenting and compensated adult actor or actress playing an underage child,

It's not even within the realm of civilized behavior to ask the question. I hope that answers your question.

Adults consenting to act as if they're underage? Consenting adults can do what they want. They can play the roles they want and act how they want, as long as they consent.

[geek tragedy]

32. I am testing the claim that as long as it's "consenting adults" involved, that

there is no reasonable/sane grounds for restricting that freedom of speech.

Now the position is that there are valid exceptions to the "as long as there are consenting adults no restriction is valid" rule.

On what do we base those exceptions--harm to society? Encouraging sexual violence? We know it when we see it? Depiciting illegal behavior?

How do we determine what kind of porn that involves only consenting adults can be banned and what can't be banned?

Are there justiciable standards that a court would be able to apply, or is it just something on gut instinct?

If people are going to make blanket assertions, they need to define how far that blanket reaches.

[LittleBlue]

36. Okay, as long as it's consenting adults

and not children you're talking about, I'll have the conversation. When you said "kiddie porn" in the original post, I thought you meant actual kiddie porn. Especially when you followed up by listing animal porn, considering no consenting adult can play the role of an animal.

As to adults pretending to be children, rape victims, etc. Is it acceptable to question whether these should be regulated/banned? No, but you have the right to waste your time doing it. They are consenting adults. They have the right to express themselves in pornos, documentaries, TV dramas, movies, art, etc. playing any role they choose. So it would be unconstitutional from the start, thus going nowhere, thus a waste of time, making the asking of it a forgone conclusion since it's already been answered decisively.

[thucythucy]

55. Do progressives have the right to question

and criticise racist, sexist, homophobic content of porn, where they find it?

Not to ban it, not to regulate it for content (other than the exceptions already agreed to), not to prohibit consenting adults from seeing it, but simply to discuss whether specific examples of porn might contain racist/sexist/homophobic images and mythology that we as progressives feel entitled to challenge?

Or is ANY criticism or evalutation of ANY piece of porn immediately and always equivalent to calls for government repression?

[LittleBlue]

58. They have the right to ask anything they want

That's guaranteed by the First Amendment.

[thucythucy]

61. Good to know you feel this way.

You posted remarks on another thread that made me wonder.

[riderinthestorm]

28. Of course then we'd have to have a discussion about "consenting adults" really means...

Like the "consenting adults" who work in slave labor conditions in Asia to feed our insatiable electronics appetite... I mean, they could quit and become.. an aerospace engineer!!

Its a DISCUSSION. Tangents are typical.

[sufrommich]

14. I haven't seen any posts calling for a ban

on porn. I've seen posts on how degrading certain forms of porn are for women and concern about how popular degrading porn is. That's not the same as calling for a ban.We talk about how harmful Fox News has become in politics,yet there are no hysterical accusations that anyone is calling for a limit on free speech because we discuss it.I think a lot of people who enjoy hard core porn want to hang on to their fantasies that most of the women in the porn industry are enjoying themselves when many clearly aren't. My guess is that the porn industry is a very depressing,sad business.

[pipoman]

23. Larry Flint

recently told a young woman not to do it because it will steal her soul..read about it a few weeks ago..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/125517200

[redqueen]

37. A lot of ex and exiting porn performers say the same thing.

We are supposed to just ignore all that, apparently, and pretend that McDonald's workers are just as likely to get PTSD from their jobs as porn performers.

[duffyduff]

40. It's not a real "career" option for people, and I think some have blinded themselves into twisting

the issue by trying to make it a "censorship" issue when it is really about exploiting others for money and in the most degrading way possible.

It's actually a form of prostitution although legal.

The way the actors are treated in porn is absolutely scandalous.

I refuse to look at the shit. It isn't just anti-human, it's anti-sex.

[redqueen]

43. "It is anti-sex"

I tend to agree.

Porn performers talk about how the positions are for the camera, and they don't feel good. Yet people are seeing the positions and trying to copy them ... and not just teens. It's lunacy.

Also, I hope that was your 666th post. That'd be cool.

[seabeyond]

20. talking about the effects and harm is not telling people what to do. talking about the effects and

harm is not advocating for a ban.

[Yavin4]

22. What exactly is porn?

No one has yet given me a definition.

[datasuspect]

29. the horse.

it's dead already.

stop beating it.

[Johnny2X2X]

33. Always going to be a controversy

Some people think that porn shapes peoples' sexual desires and behaviors, but this is not true within most market places. Peoples' desires and behaviors shape porn. If this isn't what people wanted to see it would not sell.

The fact that porn is so popular and probably mirrors society's sexual desires is disturbing to some people who maybe don't feel like they are confortable with what they see. Bottom line to me, stay true to what you want and feel as long as you don't harm anyone and as long as you respect other individual's or society as a whole's same right.

[redqueen]

39. Yeah. This is a little more than disturbing to me.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2534440

Most porn isn't like what you see on cable. Those who so vociferously defend this multi billion dollar industry should take a look around the net and see exactly what it is they are defending.

[Johnny2X2X]

59. Wrong website

I'm surprised you aren;t posting on Free Republic That is a site where you can make broad generalizations about any subject and then use one example to try to show that your generalization is true. Here on DU I tend to see most posters who look at things a little more critically.

Are there creeps out there making porn? Absolutely. But this discussion is not about the special cases, it's about porn in general, even what you might consider extreme porn. The fact is that like any other market driven industry, pronography is a slave to the consumer. They are supplying what sells and what sells is what people want to see and fantasize about. If what they were making wasn't selling they would go out of business. In fact there are porbably porn companies that go out of business all the time because they don't create a product that enough consumers cares to view.

Now it is a good discussion as to who pornography is made for and you'll get little argument from me that most of it is made for men, but I think many people and a lot of women misunderstand nwhat is beiing depicted on the screen as degrading when the purpose was not necessarily degradation, but depiction of insatiability and other aspects of womens' sexuality.

[redqueen]

65. Yeah, I should move to that right wing paradise, Iceland,

where porn is banned.

Or that haven for conservatives, Denmark, where objectification in advertising is strictly curtailed.

Oh, wait.

[Fumesucker]

34. Sturgeon's law applies at least as much to porn as it does to everything else

90% of everything is crud.

[jeff47]

38. There is a technological solution

And it is a damn shame that there is not a technological fix to make it less available to the very young on the internet that is not just a censorship stalking-horse.

There is a technological fix.

Put the computer in the living room. Or really any non-private area of the house. Infinitely more effective than any censorship software.

[redqueen]

41. Boys are watching porn on smart phones at school.

So lots of kids get to see and hear the crap even if they don't even have a computer at home.

[jeff47]

51. So use the tools the phone company provides

Can't watch porn on a smart phone that doesn't allow any data to be downloaded.

[redqueen]

56. Do you think we can pass a law to force the parents of other kids to do so? nt

[jeff47]

63. No, I just think such incidental viewings aren't going to cause harm

even to the most sheltered kid. The thing the anti-porn people should be concerned about is watching lots and lots and lots of porn.

[redqueen]

67. Depends on your definition of harm.

Teenagers are saying some shocking things as a result of such "incidental" exposure.

That stuff isn't reported here as much as it is in the UK, though. The UK, which bans certain kinds of extreme/violent porn.

[jeff47]

68. Because teenagers aren't capable of saying shocking things without porn?

I'm talking about real harm, not fantasies of anti-porn people. Some of them seem to think Janet Jackson's nipple destroyed a generation.

[redqueen]

70. No, I mean more and more teenage girls reporting that they're being pressured

to perform the acts that most women have to be paid to agree to do.

One young teen (14 IIRC) was handed a list of desired porntastic acts that her boyfriend expected.

[jeff47]

76. Yeah, we need to do a better job of raising our boys.

I won't argue that we, as a society, are doing a good job of raising our boys.

But as a former teenage boy, I was fully capable of coming up with outrageous sex acts without porn's help. So I don't find the 'expanded fantasies' argument terribly persuasive.

I'd argue we need to teach boys that presenting such a list is inappropriate. And teach girls that the appropriate response involves kicking....either physical or out of her room. But I don't think porn is the ultimate source of such behavior - men have been pressuring women to go beyond their boundaries long before porn became ubiquitous.

[redqueen]

79. We will have to disagree on that, then...

I agree with pornographers and others who say that things have changed significantly since the era of free streaming porn.

On everything else, we agree.

[jeff47]

84. IMO, the change was to remove everything but the sex

As in, pornographers used to pretend they were filmmakers and thus put plots into their moves.

I'm not sure plots as dumb as "We're such good friends, we'll prostitute ourselves so you can try out for the Dallas Cowgirls" is much of a loss.

Stripping off that veneer of respectability is probably good, in that we can stop pretending it's "art" and talk about these formerly-underlying issues.

[redqueen]

85. Yeah, maybe the choking, slapping, spitting, facials, AtM, etc...

was always popular, and I just somehow missed it.

[jeff47]

86. Never was particularly flattering to the women.

And without a plot to attack the women with, they've had to get obvious.

[name not needed]

75. Then don't let them have smartphones.

God forbid parents do their job instead of crying for the state to step in.

[redqueen]

77. Do you think I have some kind of 'Control Other Parents' superpower?

Cause I don't.

Or maybe you're thinking there could be a law against kids owning smartphones?

[randome]

42. You're thinking desktops, not laptops, tablets or phones.

I understand where you're coming from, though.

[jeff47]

50. Nothing says you have to let the kids take those into their room either. (nt)

[randome]

54. My 15 y/o daughter is fond of a certain small Dr. Who figurine.

Judging from her disposition in general and the line of speculation she pursues when we engage in wide-ranging conversations about society, sex, women, etc., I wonder sometimes if that doll has any part in her fantasy life.

No way for me to know, of course, not without spying on her -which I could never do. But should I ban that doll in CASE she entertains fantasies with it? Should I ban her taking her phone into her bedroom in CASE she watches anything unwholesome?

We don't have a land line. Her phone and her sister's are the only way I can communicate with them during the day.

I don't think it's as easy as you think to prevent boys OR girls from watching porn.

[jeff47]

62. What you should do is based on what you want to accomplish.

If you feel that porn is detrimental to your children, then there are some pretty darn easy steps to make it harder for them to see any.

In my personal case, I don't plan to put the computer in the living room when they're teenagers - I expect that they won't be harmed by porn. But I can't make that call yet, since the kids are under 5.

But should I ban that doll in CASE she entertains fantasies with it? Should I ban her taking her phone into her bedroom in CASE she watches anything unwholesome?

If you feel that such activities damage her, then yes. You'd be fucking insane for thinking it causes damage. But it would be the appropriate thing to do if you thought the doll was causing damage.

We don't have a land line. Her phone and her sister's are the only way I can communicate with them during the day.

Most phone companies lets you disable data on a per-phone basis. They also let you set up a schedule to enable certain features of the phone during certain hours of the day. For example, the AT&T system lets you set it so they can call/text you 24/7 while they can only call/text other numbers between certain hours of the day.

[randome]

71. You're right, of course. Recognizing harm means taking some sort of action.

I don't like the idea of setting up restrictions as you suggest but I recognize that they might be useful to some.

[randome]

49. What about fetish porn? There is porn to cater to everyone's hidden desires.

It doesn't always involve sex.

[thucythucy]

60. Have there been lots of OPs on DU lately

calling for government censorship or the banning of porn?

Or have these been posts discussing the possible harmful effects of porn, on individuals and society?

I can say that "Birth of Nation" and, for that matter, "Gone with the Wind" are racist and reactionary pieces of film making, without necessarily being pro-censorship, can't I?

Anyway, I for one certainly don't support banning anything that involves only consenting adults.

I do, however, retain my right to raise concerns about the messages at least some of this material contains. You yourself make a statement about most porn being base and unlikeable.

This doesn't make you a censor, does it?

[In_The_Wind]

64. I like soft core porn. It can be done beautifully.

There is no reason to degrade anyone for a porn movie to be successful. [img][/img]

[The Straight Story]

69. I like redneck porn. Man opens door for naked lady, helps to get the jack off the tire

that kind

[NaturalHigh]

72. I don't know where you get this stuff...

but it usually gives me a good laugh.

[edbermac]

73. So is the food at Olive Garden.

But people still eat there.

[octothorpe]

81. You might be able to eat at the Olive Garden, but....

you still can't really watch porn or get circumcision there.

[R B Garr]

74. Wait. Now we're bigots if we don't like porn??

"People who want to ban it are reactionary bigots."

It is a money making industry, so it's realistic to assume that standards will be applied to it, as standards are applied to other industries as so-called regulations for "consumers." That's not bigotry by any means, as far as I see it.

As an aside, I'm not saying that I don't like porn, but I sure don't think that people are bigots if their views are that porn is damaging.

[ZombieHorde]

78. "People who want to ban it are reactionary bigots."

Bigots against whom?

Consider the following scenario: A parent films their child in a bath. The bath is normal, and nothing bad happens. However, the parent then mixes some porno music onto the video, and publishes it on a sex site for all to see if they are willing to pay.

Parents have the right to bath their kids, and they have the right to put pictures and movies of their kids on the internet, but should they have the right to put them up if they are mixed to have a sexual tone, or should they be censored?

[arely staircase]

82. i like to watch the door-holding fetish stuff

eom

[talkingmime]

83. 1) I'm against all censorship; 2) Not all porn is tasteless.

There are a lot of offerings that qualify as pornography but also qualify as art. Yeah, the majority of it is "SPANK MY HAIRY ASS" stuff, but there's a big difference between that and sensual scenes that are only pornographic because you get to see naughty bits. Face it, "Nine and a Half Weeks" was pretty close to the edge of pornography.

There's nothing wrong with humans being human. We're sexual beings by nature. I agree that there are purient interests involved, but a lot of what qualifies as pornography is simple sensuality.

[Nevernose]

87. Here's some truly freaky porn:

http://www.pnas.org/content/109/22/8450.full

Perverted, I know, but I wanted to share.