My grandfather quit the Catholic Church (or more fair it quit him)

[dsc]

My grandfather was born in the early 1900's near Pittsburgh to very recent Italian immigrants (his older brother was born in Italy). He was raised Catholic and stayed Catholic until 1947, when he married my grandmother who was a Baptist divorcee. She got a divorce in Pennsylvania in the 1940's which was very hard to do. Her first husband was an abusive alcoholic. My grandfather still prayed with the Rosary, read the lives of the Saints, but he never set foot in a Catholic church after he married my grandmother. I am not saying that every Catholic should leave their church but the notion that it is in any way analogous to leaving the country is nothing short of absurd. My grandfather left the church despite the fact his entire family was still in it and convinced he would be going to hell for leaving his church. But he still did it. He did it because he loved his wife, and loved his daughter and later loved his grandkids. He felt they were more important that staying in the church. You have every right to say that the fact the church both thinks marriage equality is Satan's work and shows no sign of ever altering that position, is important enough to stay in, that is your choice, but don't pretend that it is the same as leaving America, it isn't and unless you are a moron, you know that too.

[Skittles]

1. good post

if people want to be part of an organization that is homophoic, sexist, against birth control, etc, fine - DO IT; just do NOT ask me to RESPECT IT.

[Cleita]

2. One problem with equating Church to Country, is that you don't have to

go on Church property, which is private property and maybe you might be trespassing, if you are barred. You can't just avoid your country, which you are physically on at all times unless you make the decision to leave it and become an ex-patriot. So it's not a good analogy. I think we need to find another one. One thing about leaving the Church is no one is going to come after you for a tithe. If you leave your country without paying your taxes you are in trouble. If you live and work in your country you have to pay taxes. You never have to do anything for your Church if you leave and no one is going to come after you. Try dropping out while living in this country, you might end up in jail.

[elehhhhna]

3. My great-grand left Holland

after MARRYING a Catholic woman (back then - eek!) - prettymuch got thrown out of the family for it. Funnything, though - I've worked the family tree back to Charlemagne (and beyond!) and our family was sooooooo Catholic back in the day that they sponsored building churches, abbeys, had Bishops and shit and MANY went out out on the Crusades. My takeaway: We are all so stupid and narrow and certainly misguided about "religion", and the world continues to spin.

[Cirque du So-What]

8. Back in that day

the whole of Europe was Catholic. It wasn't until the reform movements that a power play began in practically every kingdom, fiefdom & principality.

All branches of my family are firmly in the reformed category, although one line goes back to the first Christian king of Ireland. I'm descended (along with probably 12 million other people) from the guy who kidnapped Patrick and took him to Ireland as a slave. Patrick escaped back to England, then returned to Ireland and baptised that guy's son...and Patrick was most assuredly Catholic.

[eallen]

11. Read up on the Cathars. They weren't Catholic.

And there were others.

Of course, France was all Catholic after the Cathars were killed and burned and forced to convert.

[elehhhhna]

15. hey, cuz! we're all related. xox

[Kalidurga]

4. So what about the anti war Catholics?

They also pay US taxes that support the wars and then they turn around and lambaste us that have "decided" to remain US citizens despite the many flaws in the government.

Once I merely said it's easier to leave the church than it is the country and I got so many people that accused be of being a bigot. I still haven't heard a peep on why this is not a factual statement.

[MNBrewer]

5. The "church as country" analogy doesn't work

at least not since the First Amendment was adopted in this country. It's a better analogy to compare church membership with country club membership, or book club membership.

[Kalidurga]

7. I totally agree

I was attacked for saying so in another thread. But, I suppose there are people who become Ex-pats because they don't like things in this country. That is their right, but I have to wonder where they are going to go where it is perfect or at least there are no major corruptions.

[Tom Rinaldo]

6. You can't generalize like that from an individual experience. People differ

I am sure that you grandfather wasn't/isn't alone in those priorities, but he doesn't represent everyone either. It bears repeating that we are a nation of immigrants. Some people came to America to escape religious persecution. In other words for some it was easier to give up their homeland than their religion. And that isn't just true for Colonial times. There were tens of millions of Irish, Italian, Polish and other Catholic immigrants who left their homes in Europe to come to America. I had grandparents among them. They arrived in a largely Protestant nation, and they faced real persecution back here then for being "papists", but very very few converted to a socially approved Protestant religion (my grandparents didn't). People are not all wired the same way. Even now, for some of us here, the idea of leaving America sometimes tempts us. I thought seriously once of moving to Ireland, not to escape America, but for the different life experiences that might offer me. The point is that for me that thought of moving wasn't traumatic. For others it is almost inconceivable to do so voluntarily.

[JDPriestly]

13. Regardless of from what to what religion they convert, I think people convert to a religion

other than the one in which they are raised either out of conscience or due to marriage -- for harmony in the family -- and not due to social pressure.

People convert to all kinds of religions. I know several people who converted to the Jewish religion and some who converted to Catholicism as well as many who converted to Protestant religions.

I'm a Unitarian and many Unitarians left some other church to join the Unitarians. I would not call it a conversion though because you can continue to believe your original religion or whatever you want. Unitarians are fellowships of seekers more than fellowships of dogma.

But I know I changed church out of conscience. My beliefs did not change much, just my affiliation. The church I attended before I changed had become too fundamentalist for me although the denomination I belonged to before I changed was not altogether fundamentalist.

[treestar]

9. It has mellowed out since then

I recall stories of how you could not appoint your non-Catholic friend godparent or bridal party member. They've backed off on that sort of thing.

My grandmother was a Methodist. Her husband and kids went to Church without her. She stayed home and cooked. She was friends with the priest, though, go figure.

Of course they pressured her until on her 50th anniversary, she joined the Church!

Back then, there was a lot more hostility. Her family did not like it and did not like her little Catholic bastard kids. So the exclusiveness would come from both sides.

[dsc]

10. annulments were very hard to get until it was pretty much too late

My grandmother died in 1978 and he died in 1986. Had annulments been readily available in the 1960's I don't know what he would have done.

[treestar]

12. People still try for the annulment

So they can get married again in the Church. My sister was divorced and married a Methodist. Catholic church said she was unqualified now. The annulment was a pain. She told them take a hike and got married in the Methodist church. She was resentful, but then raised her kids nominally Catholic and sent them to Catholic Schools. People are strange.

Then people with boatloads of kids try for an "annulment."

But then now I think you can marry a Protestant in the Protestant church and has a priest there to do a "blessing." So they must have dropped the strict line of thinking.

[JDPriestly]

14. I'm glad to hear that Catholics now are less intolerant of Protestant

marriages. I did not know that. Many people were deeply hurt by the Catholic attitude toward marriage with a Protestant.