I finally figured out why the uptick in anti-Catholic fervor as of late.

[onehandle]

A small, vocal group of DUers is afraid that Pope Francis is going to succeed.

The last guy was not a complication, because he wasn't personable, looked like the Emperor Palpatine, and was a member of the Hitler Youth.

Yuck.

But this guy has a beautiful smile, washed the feet of AIDS patients, rides public transportation, shuns the gold trimmed outfits and the red booties, preaches protection of the environment and the poor...

Worse of all, he represents most of the fastest growing group of Americans, not only in Religion, but in culture and region of origination.

You're afraid that he will be as popular as John Paul II... or more popular.

You might be right.

[Nye Bevan]

1. He'll be popular with me if and when he endorses condoms.

Save millions of lives and reduce abortions.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

2. Stranger things have happened.

I'll certainly agree with you on that, though.

[ljm2002]

45. Pope Benedict already endorsed condoms...

...in a very restricted manner:

So what exactly did the Pope say about condoms? He stands by the Church’s position that they should not be used for contraception but that in some situations, they may be justifiably used by male prostitutes hoping to prevent the spread of HIV.

Read more: http://newsfeed.time.com/2010/11/21/turns-out-the-pope-doesnt-endorse-condoms/#ixzz2O6zqzFFm

Of course I know you meant he should endorse condoms for contraception purposes. Turns out the Church is even more anti-woman than it is anti-gay. Gosh, who could have suspected that?

Sorry. As a long-lapsed Catholic who used to identify a lot with being Catholic even after I left the faith, I do understand that the reactions to so-called "Catholic Church bashing" can be felt at a very personal level. But I'm with you: he may be a good person in many ways, as an individual. So are lots of conservatives. Difference being, the Pope has a lot of influence on policy -- such as on the abortion issue, where American priests regularly insert themselves into politics. For example by publicly refusing Communion to John Kerry when he was a serious Presidential contender.

Fuck 'em.

[SugarShack]

76. I'll support them when they hold pedos accountable. Last week, another multi million payout!

Enough! HELLO....that's the problem!

[HERVEPA]

3. Succeed in continuing homophobia. I'm sure he will.

Continue helping to kill people by disallowing the use of condoms. Sure.

Who the hell cares about how he dresses or how he gets to work.

[RainDog]

4. When he was selected, his stated views on women and homosexuals were known

If he wants to walk back on those, great.

If he wants to continue to deny condoms to women in Africa, for instance, who die of AIDS because condoms also stop contraception - then his morality is too mentally deficient for me and many others.

[snooper2]

5. I don't understand why it's just catholics getting shit..

I'm anti all religion...


They are all equal...100%

[hrmjustin]

7. Well at least your consistant.

[bowens43]

48. I'm with you. All religions are equally vile.

[hrmjustin]

83. Why?

Why is religion vile?

[liberal_at_heart]

6. Would DUers have treated Martin Luther King Jr this way?

He was against abortion and felt homosexual feelings were not innate and were in need of psychiatric care.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

11. he was also born in 1929 and his views may have evolved

were he not killed

[Bluenorthwest]

12. One of King's closest friends, mentors and felllow organizers was Bayard Rustin, a gay man

Corretta Scott King, Martin's widow, would also not agree with your portrait of her husband, nor with Pope Francis:
“Homophobia is like racism and anti-Semitism and other forms of bigotry in that it seeks to dehumanize a large group of people, to deny their humanity, their dignity and personhood. We are all tied together in a single garment of destiny…I can never be what I ought to be until you are allowed to be what you ought to be. I’ve always felt that homophobic attitudes and policies were unjust and unworthy of a free society and must be opposed by all Americans who believe in democracy.”

So your comment seems to be countered by King's actual associations and by his widow.

[babylonsister]

80. Thanks for that quote:

this line I loved especially...

I can never be what I ought to be until you are allowed to be what you ought to be.

[RainDog]

13. If, 50 years into the future that is now

He was saying these things he would hear quite a bit of dissent for those positions.

Those opinions would put him in the same camp as Rick Warren and others, who, for instance, have supported leaders in Uganda who have called for genocide of homosexuals.

If MLK wanted to associate with that mindset, he would most certainly be called on the same.

[haikugal]

14. He was a product of the times...

even if he were to keep the same views now he'd be wrong but never 'the Pope'....isn't 'the Pope' supposed to be God's word on earth...or something like that.

[liberal_at_heart]

20. no one is saying the Pope is right on his view of homosexuality

but people are calling on Catholics to leave the church. Thank goodness no one called for Baptists to leave the church when Martin Luther King Jr. was leading the civil rights movement. And there was plenty of reason to leave the Baptist church for especially at that time.

[haikugal]

27. Our recent 'Baptist Church' ideology and dogma,

the dominionist 'born again' version is relatively new but even so I think his version of Baptist didn't belong to the Falwell version. If you know what I mean. That was then, this is now....he would have grown with the times had he lived I'm sure.

[RainDog]

31. Not only that, but historically, African-Americans had their own churches

And this distinction still exists in polling about religious belief. African-American churches provided a way of organizing against systemic discrimination by the white power structure in the South. They provided social services that were denied to people based upon the color of their skin.

Jerry Falwell's Baptist church was not MLK's Baptist church.

Baptists didn't develop a theology that was opposed to abortion until Reagan. Prior to that, with the advent of Roe v. Wade, Protestant denominations, across the board, supported Roe v. Wade.

It wasn't until Reagan made his alliance with religious groups that right wing religious protestants changed their position.

[haikugal]

37. Yes...

You said it very well...I would only add the along with Reagan came the dominionists and their steeple jacking of moderate churches. These are recent and on going.

http://www.talk2action.org

[RainDog]

70. In spite of the question

by someone who is trying to claim that African-American Baptist churches were part of the push for segregation... (huh?) The reality is that plenty of people, including me, have asked why others would associate with Protestant churches whose doctrines at this time continue to tout sexism and homophobia as official doctrine.

The selective view is pretty amazing.

I don't know anyone here, tho, of course, they may be here, that would give protestant church members a pass on the things that others are talking about here relative to the catholic church.

And, fwiw, MLK's wife has denounced homophobia and supports a right to choice in abortion rights.

MLK's niece, who had numerous abortions and marriages, opposed abortion rights and homosexual rights. She uses his name to get speaking engagements where she calls for overturning Roe v.Wade.

Why do I know this? Because I spoke out against her.

To pretend this is about one religion is simply a lie.

[haikugal]

81. Agreed!

The RWA makes much of MLK's niece and her anti abortion politics. It is striking that those that abhor the RWA religionists can't see their way clear to recognize the very real objections to the catholic church and feel 'put upon' as it were.

We will leave these racist bigots (bigots in every way) behind in our dust as we continue to move forward! I didn't think it would take so long.....but we've had some very rich and energetic obstructionists to overcome.

[JVS]

23. If he had dedicated years to organizing the anti-abortion movement and fighting against gay rights.

Then I'm sure DUers would have strong criticism for him, and he'd deserve it.

[noiretextatique]

41. given the cultural realities of the time

there would have been some people, even here, who would not agree with his main agenda.

[MNBrewer]

62. On those issues. YES!

If he actually held them.

[Deep13]

86. First, I doubt MLK was anti-abortion or anti-gay. ...

Anyway, Francis is not MLK. MLK spent his adult life fighting for equality. His main advocacy was not anti-abortion or gay rights. He did not pretend to be a champion for the poor and oppressed while concentrating most of his efforts on something else. Finally, he was on the outside fighting an oppressive system, not running such a system.

So even if what you say is true, no we would not be as critical of him as we are of the oppressive, hypocritical, and dishonest Catholic Church.

[Trajan]

8. Weird thread

Straw men and sycophancy, all in one tidy little package ...

[NightWatcher]

9. Remember, when you hit the ramp, lean back and hold your skis together

and you should have no problem clearing the shark tank.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

10. yeah it's definitely a conspiracy. it has nothing to do with his stance on gay marriage, abortion

or the churches handling of pedophiles.

it's definitely a conspiracy

[RainDog]

18. the hysterical failure of false equivalency

Those who are calling others bigots because of their opinions have posted KKK pictures and insinuated that people here are the modern-day equivalent of the KKK.

They have claimed you can simply walk across a border and claim citizenship.

They have claimed it doesn't matter if the face of their organization promotes horrid policies because they were... born that way.

The biggest hoot is the claim that associating with the RCC is in the DNA.

[LanternWaste]

57. Which is odd because national borders, like religion, are wholly imaginary constructs.

"They have claimed you can simply walk across a border and claim citizenship..."

Which is odd because national borders, like religion, are wholly imaginary constructs.

[RainDog]

71. When it's as easy to move to another nation

as it is to leave a religious denomination, the comparison would be apt. But it's not. I know about the difficulty in emigrating because I wanted to leave the U.S. during the Bush era and, imaginary constructs or not, you cannot emigrate just because you would like to do so.

[truedelphi]

28. But the new pope cannot go back in a time capsule

And do anything about the pedophilia matter. He is a far better choice than might have been made.

Also, like everything else, the real test of the Church is in how well the membership grows. Without the admission of so many parishioners from south of the borders, the Catholic Church here in the USA would be totally floundering. White middle class Americans have basically left in droves. It is a real struggle for the Church to find candidates to become nuns, and priests. Again, the new additions to the country's population have helped make up for that - but the numbers for the priesthood and sisterhood are still down.

[RainDog]

39. Here's how one group of Catholics has responded to the pedophile scandal

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/13/magazine/13Irish-t.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Of the various crises the Catholic Church is facing around the world, the central one — wave after wave of accounts of systemic sexual abuse of children by priests and other church figures — has affected Ireland more strikingly than anywhere else. And no place has reacted so aggressively. The Irish responded to the publication in 2009 of two lengthy, damning reports — detailing thousands of cases of rape, sexual molestation and lurid beatings, spanning Ireland’s entire history as an independent country, and the efforts of church officials to protect the abusers rather than the victims — with anger, disgust, vocal assaults on priests in public and demands that the government and society disentangle themselves from the church.

This past December a fresh bout of fury was touched off by the publication of the investigation into perhaps the worst clergy sex offender: the Rev. Tony Walsh, who raped and molested children while serving as a priest in Dublin and who was shielded by the Vatican even after Irish Church officials wanted him defrocked. Yet another large-scale report will be released shortly. And a 1997 letter — in which the papal nuncio to Ireland told Irish bishops that the Vatican had “serious reservations” about a plan for mandatory reporting of clergy sex-abuse cases to the police — came to light last month, causing further anger.

Among those who were most outraged by the abuse reports were people in their 20s and 30s, who came of age during the economic upswing and who grew up in a newly secular culture without a sense of obedience to the church. “When I saw the reports, I thought, I can’t even pretend to be part of this club anymore,” says Grainne O’Sullivan, a 32-year-old graphic designer. Late in 2009, together with a Web developer named Cormac Flynn and a civil servant in Cork named Paul Dunbar, she began a Web site, CountMeOut.ie, which walked Catholics through a three-step process for formally defecting from the church. It was to be, she said, “a way of protesting, using their own process against them.” Over the next several months, CountMeOut became a focal point of anger at the church; 12,000 people downloaded the official form for defection — “Defectio ab Ecclesia Catholica Actu Formali” — from the site.

...Ireland’s move away from the Catholic Church began before the reports were released. Between 1974 and 2008, regular Mass attendance dropped by some 50 percent. The situation today highlights a problem that is looming for the Vatican, especially in the West, as the global sex-abuse crisis, coupled with the increasingly conservative rule and top-down control that have prevailed since the 1970s, is contributing to the departure of populations the church once considered foundational. “Ireland is a prime example of what the church is facing, because they made this island into a concentration camp where they could control everything,” Mark Patrick Hederman, abbot of Glenstal Abbey, a Benedictine monastery in County Limerick, told me. “And the control was really all about sex. They told you if you masturbated, it meant you were impure and had allowed the devil to work on you. Generations of people were crucified with guilt complexes. Now the game is up.”

When the church found so many were leaving the church, they removed the option. So, among those billions who are counted as Catholics are those who do not want to have anything to do with the church since the pedophile cover up was exposed. The church says... you can't leave because then we can't pretend our numbers are greater than they are.

[truedelphi]

69. That is a mind blowing report.

I wonder how many of us here in the USA who have left the Church are still counted as members?

I know in Santa Rosa Calif., this one scandal hit the media. A bishop has been having sex with a young seminarian, and he showered the man with money and gifts in order to help see to it that that person didn't out their relationship. And the official spokesperson for the Church said, "A holy man like this bishop should not be shamed because of his acquiescing to temptation." Yet how many loyal Church members have been told they can be excommunicated for such "grievous mortal sins" as having an abortion, or even marrying a divorced person?

A local Santa Rosa nun took it upon herself to chastise not only the bishop but also the official spokesperson. "If the lay people have to be spotless in terms of their behavior, can't we expect the same of our leaders?"

[RainDog]

94. Ireland issued guidelines regarding abuse

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/14/world/europe/14church.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

DUBLIN — The Roman Catholic Church in Ireland was covering up the sexual abuse of children by priests as recently as 2009, long after it issued guidelines meant to protect children, and the Vatican tacitly encouraged the cover-up by ignoring the guidelines, according to a scathing report issued Wednesday by the Irish government.

Alan Shatter, the Irish justice minister, called the findings “truly scandalous,” adding that the church’s earlier promises to report all abuse cases since 1995 to civil authorities were “built on sand.” Abuse victims called the report more evidence that the church sought to protect priests rather than children.

The Cloyne Report, as it is known, drafted by an independent investigative committee headed by Judge Yvonne Murphy, found that the clergy in the Diocese of Cloyne, a rural area of County Cork, did not act on complaints against 19 priests from 1996 to 2009. The report also found that two allegations against one priest were reported to the police, but that there was no evidence of any subsequent inquiry.

As a mother, there is NO WAY I would allow my children to be anywhere near this church. It SHOCKS me that parents would still leave their children in the care of an organization that demonstrated AFTER THE ABUSE WAS UNCOVERED, that they were more concerned with their own reputation than with the well being of children.

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/dec/17/world/la-fg-dutch-catholic-abuse-20111217

Tens of thousands of Dutch children were sexually abused by priests and other Roman Catholic religious figures in the last 65 years, but church officials failed to take adequate action or report problems to police, an independent commission said Friday.

Many of the victims spent part of their childhood in Catholic institutions such as schools and orphanages, where the risk of abuse was twice as high as in the general population, the commission said. But complaints were often ignored or covered up by authorities who were more intent on protecting the church's reputation than providing care for abuse victims.

An independent commission set up by the Dutch Conference of Bishops and the Conference of Dutch Religious Orders, another Catholic organization, examined such misconduct from 1945 to 2010 and how the church chose to deal — or not to deal — with it.

With this sort of record, it would be statistically in my child's favor to shield him or her from the Catholic Church.

[truedelphi]

97. Friends who wondered why I didn't raise my son Catholic were only told

Of my reaction to all the times the nuns wallopped some poor kid (usually male) for having their hands in a pocket.

I grew up in Chicago - I don't know what the nuns were thinking, but a lot of kids put their hands in their pocket when it is less than 20 degrees outside!

[geek tragedy]

52. he can disown his own words stating that GLBT rights

are Satanic.

[truedelphi]

64. Well, yeah, he can - but I'm

Not holding my breath. It's a rather non-spiritual, inhumane organization. I say this as a recovering Catholic.

The Church deems abortion very very bad, but the large industrialists whose policies cause tens of thousands of miscarriages and birth defects are never chastised by the Church. And the Church's record on human rights is dismal as well.

I left back in the early seventies in part due to how I never heard any priests stating that the war in Vietnam was wrong.

Around that same time, a man I later became very close friends with was leaving the monastery, as he couldn't take the anti-sexuality stance of the Church. He was in huge trouble with Church authorities due to his statement at a religious conclave that Jesus and the Pope both had penises. GLBT rights were part of his main focus in the years after he left the Church.

All these decades later, and the Church hasn't grown up at all.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

90. the new pope is still a homphobe & a misogynist

so i dont dislike him because of a fucking conspiracy i dislike him because of his stances

[Orsino]

15. Or they're afraid he's a distraction...

...that will aid in the concealment of terrible crimes. Or they're afraid that he will simply continue a long-running pattern of failure even to engage with progressive issues. Or they're afraid that the new pope may come with horrific baggage of his own. They're probably immune to cheap attempts at stereotyping (if not completely above perpetrating some).

But no, they're probably not jealous. That would be a ridiculous, Limbaugh-stoopid trivialization of valid concerns.

[RainDog]

25. This is why he was selected

Ratzinger HAD to step down because he was the one, within the Vatican, who kept all the records of all the pedophile cover-ups that have gone on since Paul VI.

But no matter.

Bergoglio has said nice things about poor people.

[Taverner]

16. If he succeeds in ameliorating the human condition...

I won't hate him, I'll like him...

[Kolesar]

17. Not back on the anti-Catholic fervor

Still on it

[Bluenorthwest]

19. If you mean succeed in standing against equality, I certainly hope he fails. He is wrong.

He is against my basic human rights and says awful things about my loved ones and community. That's what we don't like, his bigoted and atavistic hate speech.
I hope Francis and his peers fail in preventing justice and equality to reign, he and his sexist all male sanctum of creepiness.

[MrSlayer]

21. I'm pretty sure it's the pedophilia.

And the covering up of pedophilia. John Paul II covered for them too with Ratzinger as his right hand on the matter. This "uptick" you see is because of the abdication and subsequent election of a new pope. It's in the news and so it's being talked about more than usual.

I doubt anyone is fearful of a successful pope. Whatever that means.

There would be far less contempt for the church if the hundreds of years of systematic buggery hadn't occurred. People would just have contempt for the anti-gay, anti-women, anti-birth control policies that nearly all the mainstream religions have.

[Apophis]

22. An anti-gay, anti-woman pope will NEVER succeed with me.

[msongs]

26. he is just representing the views of his god nt

[magical thyme]

24. I'm sure it has nothing to do with the pedophilia, financial corruption, or mysogyny

that the Vatican and church hierarchy has come to represent.

Personally, I hope Pope Francis succeeds in returning the Church to a positive mission that does not include a "Pedophile Priest Protection Program," murder of women who's lives happen to depend on access to abortion, conning elderly widows out of their fortunes, or interfering in secular politics (other than speaking out against war, of course). But that's just me.

And I have no problem with people following the religion (or non-religion) of their choice. Just don't shove *your* beliefs down my throat in the way of laws. And I do believe churches should be paying some taxes.

Seriously, when any organization has as big a footprint in the world as the Catholic Church, they should expect some serious scrutiny. Yes, they have 1.2B members worldwide. Well, there are 1.5B Buddhists, but I don't see the Dalai Lama sucking up oxygen the way the Pope does. There are 1.5B Muslims, but the world barely heard of them until Osama bin Laden became the daily MSM mantra.

Iow, if you can't take the heat, get out from under the kleig lights.

[rhett o rick]

29. DU posters are afraid the Pope will "succeed". Really? REALLY?

"You're afraid that he will be as popular as John Paul II." Really? REALLY? Now why would we fear that? Sadly you think his popularity is what this is all about.

I have a question or two for you. Do you think that God would want pedophiles punished severely? If you answer is yes, then wouldnt you think the Catholic Church would want to please God and punish pedophile priests? But they choose to hide pedophile priests. Risking the wrath of God, why would they do that? Why does the Catholic Church hide pedophile priests? This is an honest question. I have a theory but like to hear what you have to say.

[RainDog]

32. It's probably one of the most BULLSHIT-FILLED posts I've seen on DU n/t

[Apophis]

61. The poster brings up a very valid point.

[RainDog]

72. What valid point is brought up? n/t

[rhett o rick]

79. Sorry but I missed the point. He said some of us here are afraid the new Pople will

succeed. Succeed at what exactly? Whatever it is, why would we be afraid of it?

My only "fear" is that this Pope, like those before him, will not change the culture of the Church. A culture that promotes the belief that priests are closer to God than laypersons and deserve a higher level of trust. When this trust is broken, the Church tries to hide it instead of admitting that priests are human males and not closer to God and not deserving of trust more than other males.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

89. Same as "they hate us for our freedoms"

It was BS from the word Go, but if it sounds cool and is short enough to fit on a bumper sticker, that's all some people require.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

30. Yawn. nt

[RebelOne]

38. Ditto. n/t

[Catherina]

33. Just have to rec this because the majority of posters

I put on ignore this week for being absolutely vile came straight from the Gungeon. Things that make you wonder....

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

34. Get back to me when contraception, abortion, divorce, and gay marriage are allowed without stigma.

Until then, I see him as just another misogynistic bigot in a nice frock.

[Arugula Latte]

44. Yep.

[zappaman]

35. I miss UNREC

What a ridiculous post.

[Deep13]

87. +1

[madmom]

36. Succeed at what? Being popular?..Oh

such a worthy goal. Who cares about all that other bunk!

[edhopper]

40. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss

though obviously, you wish to be fooled again.

[Arugula Latte]

42. You are delusional.

[get the red out]

43. Depends on his direction

If he goes in a direction that is beneficial to the world and its inhabitants; I will wish him every possible success!!!!!

If he simply reinforces the cruelty of working to deny people any access to family planning, homophobia, sexism, covering up wrong-doings of the Church and its Clergy; I will not wish him success in that.

I wish no ill to the man himself, or any Catholic person either way.

[tkmorris]

46. Oh fer pity's sake. You haven't "figured out" anything

The "anti-Catholic fervor" you are seeing of late is nothing more than the same general feelings towards the Church that have existed for quite some time. The reason you are seeing people post about it more lately is because... there was a new Pope elected, thus making it the topic du jour. Not exactly a surprise is it?

If he can get some general house-cleaning done, and further the causes of the poor and down-trodden than I say more power to him. As a devoted Atheist I still say that accomplishing anything under the banner of religion will ultimately be counter-productive, but if the man does more good than his predecessor did that's a step forward.

Why make things any more complicated than that? Why try to find a conspiracy where none exists, begin a war where it won't help? I ain't Catholic, though I'm guessing you are. That doesn't mean we can't find common ground and goals, and work toward them. Whaddya say?

[bowens43]

47. nonsense. its beacuse a new pope fills the news cycle days or weeks.

we talk about what is in the news

[backscatter712]

49. Afraid he'll spread homophobia and misogyny?

That's a legitimate fear.

Other than that, thanks for the amateur psychoanalysis.

[justiceischeap]

50. I am fervently anti-organized religion

but try and reign it in on DU because I know there are people of faith here that can't distinguish an attack on organized religion and their faith. However, since you opened this can of worms, I'll bite. I'm against any group that preaches one thing, then practices another. IMO, all organized religions are corrupt at some level. The more successful/wealthy a particular organized religion is, IMO, the more corrupt it is.

When the Catholic Church in DC stated they would pull all funding for the homeless from the area if DC passed marriage equality, that pretty much ruined any chance of me giving the RCC the benefit of the doubt.

As I posted in another thread, as a lesbian, I try very hard not to give my money or support to organizations that support discriminating against me... there are some things I can't avoid, like federal taxes. We see people on DU call for boycott's of Rush supporters, so if I call on Catholic's to boycott giving money to their church, they shouldn't be pissed at me for wanting them to financially boycott an organization that uses their money or pulpit to spread hatred (the opposite of what Jesus preached btw).

[geek tragedy]

51. Anyone who favors gender equality and civil rights for all Americans hopes he fails. nt

[Zoeisright]

53. Succeed at what, exactly?

Repression of women? Hatred of the LGBT community? Continuing the death of AIDS because the RCC refuses to promote condom use? Hiding pedophiles?

Hell, I'll be the first to praise him if he actually makes any REAL progress on those issues. But I'm not holding my breath.

And BTW, the fastest growing group of Americans in the religion area is atheists.

[Scootaloo]

54. Actually I suspect it has more to do with this...

The largest example of organized religion on earth, the Roman Catholic Church, basically believes a tenth of humanity should not exist (or at least should be so far in the closet the rest of us forget they exist) and that 53% of the human population is to be subservient to the, er, other 47%.

People sometimes have a problem with notions like that. And yes, that sometimes spills over on the people who belong to that organization, whether warranted or not.

[midnight]

55. Some might be concerned about his link to the Argentine dirty war....

Argentine Cardinal Named in Kidnap Lawsuit

At the time, Bergoglio was the superior in the Society of Jesus of Argentina.

http://articles.latimes.com/2005/apr/17/world/fg-cardinal17

[99Forever]

56. The only rational response to that is:

[Donald Ian Rankin]

58. I think that's completely wrong.

Most DUers - including, I suspect, most catholic DUers, and certainly including me - disagree strongly with many of the teachings of the catholic church.

A sizeable, loud minority of DUers think that that makes it OK to be as rude to catholics as they like, and have been stirred by the prominence of the church in the news into doing so.

It's got nothing to do with "fear" of the pope, or of his virtues (which I think you exaggerate, but he's far from all bad). It's about the things he's appallingly wrong about - gay rights, abortion, contraception, etc. Sometimes the obvious answer really is the right one, or at least close to it.

[BlueStreak]

59. It isn't that complicated. New Pope. Will he be as bad as the last one?

That's it.

That's really all there is to it. It is a fair question.

As religious tribes go, the Catholics aren't the worst -- not by a long shot. But they have done a lot of harm the last few decades. Unlike all the others, they have this strange hierarchy where the one they push to the top is considered saintly and infallible. So when they replace the man at the top, that rightly gets a lot of attention because that one event defines what that whole tribe will act like for the next period of time.

The last time they faced this decision, they picked a guy intent on rolling back social progress by centuries while protecting the sacred institution of pedophilia. Will the new infallible pope be any better than the last infallible pope?

[gcomeau]

60. Ummm...

You seem to have skipped over a rather critical component of your "theory".

People are afraid he's going to "succeed" AT WHAT exactly? At Catholicism? At wearing the big Pope hat? At making the Catholic church "cool" ? (I'm going to guess at that last one from the 'popular' comment near the end, in which case that's hilarious)

What, precisely, are these people you speak of afraid he's going to "succeed" in doing and why, exactly, are they supposedly afraid of it? Continuing on the assumption it's that he'll be "as popular" as John Paul II... so, what? JPII was pope for 27 years. In that almost three decade span his apparently amazing popularity took Catholicism from being 17.6% of the world population to... 17.2% of the world population. Is that what these people you are speaking of are supposed to be "afraid" of?


Please, explain yourself. I think this should be fascinating.

[southernyankeebelle]

63. The little fat pope back in early 60s was pretty popular with the people. I remember him as a teen.

I like John Paul the first and the second was ok. He didn't change anything but he had a lovely smile and he seem to care for people. But he didn't do anything about the abusers either. I didn't like the last pope from the beginning. By the way in Germany during WWII many kids didn't have a choice to join the Hitler Youth organization. I knew a some people who told me they didn't have a choice if they didn't join it would be hard on their families.

[onehandle]

65. I'm usually the one that brings up the fact...

...that young males were required to join the Hitler Youth.

I know of at least one Jew who was hidden with a non-Jewish family who had to 'join.'

[southernyankeebelle]

82. Oh my that must of been something to hear his story.

[talkingmime]

66. I don't give a flying fuck whether he succeeds or not.

It's the entire Catholic church that is broken. It's the Mother Goose of religions. Reality hasn't factored into the church in 2000 years, why would anyone expect it to now? The pomp and circumstance rituals are humorous at best and pathetic when you seriously consider them. Then again, I feel the same way about the British monarchy.

Maybe it's just me, but I can't grasp the mentality of people who want to kiss a pope's ring finger. That sounds a little "naughty" to me.

[zappaman]

67. "...I can't grasp the mentality of people who want to kiss a pope's ring finger"

It seems like that would be a better choice than what many priests have asked children to kiss.
But hey, if you know your boss is gonna cover for you, why not?

[talkingmime]

68. OUCH! But good point.

[Kolesar]

91. It sounds kind of gangster

I mean: Sicilian gangster

[talkingmime]

93. IBM

Italian Business Man

I got that one from Whoopie Goldberg's character in the movie "Burglar"

[Rex]

73. About the worst line of reasoning I've seen yet.

But that isn't a surprise either.

[TroglodyteScholar]

74. I haven't joined in the conversation until now.

My feelings aren't so much anti-Catholic as anti-religion.

Can anyone kindly tell me the last time that religion solved any of humankind's problems?

Assuming anyone actually has an answer, my follow-up is this: How does that compare to the problems created and perpetuated by organized religion of all stripes?

I'm not so concerned with individual personalities...I wonder how we benefit at all from the variety of outdated superstitions that continue building and reinforcing walls rather than breaking them down.

[trotsky]

75. You're right, I'm damn scared he will succeed.

It frightens me a great deal to think he might succeed in denying birth control and reproductive choice to millions, including non-Catholics.

It terrifies me to think he might succeed in stopping or rolling back the hard-fought gains our homosexual brothers and sisters have achieved.

And it scares me to death to consider that he might succeed in continuing to cover up his church's role and responsibility in the rape of untold numbers of children.

So yeah, you're right. I'm very scared he will succeed.

[Deep13]

77. If he succeeds in providing an alternative vision to...

Last edited Wed Mar 20, 2013, 06:57 PM - Edit history (1)

...money as the only measure of value that capitalism has created--and do it without hamping AIDS prevention, protecting misogyny, and gay-bashing--then I will be very happy with his success.

I would love to be able to say that the Pope and the Catholic leadership actively oppose the exploitation of the vast bulk of humanity to the degree it now opposes abortion, contraception, women priests, and gays. Yeah, JPII paid lip service to the opposition to the Iraq war and to greed, but the priority seems to be to keep women under control and to prevent gay rights.

Ideally, I would love for people to abandon their faith in a non-existent god or at least in the idea that suffering is a virtue, but then it wouldn't be Christianity.

[cliffordu]

78. He'll be popular with me when he renounces homophobia

exposes for prosecution pedophiles within the church worldwide,

allows women to become priests and sells off 80% of the gold buried underneath the Vatican to feed the fucking poor.

Until then, he's just another rich shill claiming to speak to God for people with good intentions.

Maybe you don't NEED some fucking guy to act as a lawyer between you and God.


AND BY THE WAY:

I feel EXACTLY the same fucking way about these born again telemarketers...uh, televangelists that run these TEEVEE stations.

[nadinbrzezinski]

84. Been reading the Argentinian Press

I think you are into something. He participated often in ecumenical services with Rabbi Skorka (a liberal who advocated for LGBT marriages. There is more, Jewish Orthodox leaders for some odd reason, don't like Skorka either).

Thanks to anoter DU'er been following also the US catholic press.

If early indications are true, and he can fight off his right flank...some here might even eat their words. Suffice it to say, way too much inside baseball, neither the Opus Dei or the Dominicans will be happy.

Early indications are what they are...good things Sir, good tidings. I hope he can indeed fight off that very powerful right flank.

[Egalitarian Thug]

85. When he decides that women have the right to decide their own fate and control of their own

bodies, get back to me.

Until then, you're all just helping to create the Hell you fantasize about a reality.

[Demo_Chris]

88. No, the "uptick" is Catholics creating threads like this

Then crying when people flame them.

[Humanist_Activist]

92. Last thing we need is for him to succeed to causing the spread of a culture of hate and death. n/t

[Tikki]

95. Might the repugs have said the same about dems as we criticized bush/administration early on...

I never thought for a moment that boosh would be anything but what he turned out to be..

The pope..I have no idea. Some people here know about that church...I don't.


Tikki

[just1voice]

96. I guess you are delusional and forgot the extreme racism and homophobia

What a waste of time.