Remember Bobby Sands? 28 prisoners at Gitmo now on hunger strike.

[panader0]

Bobby Sands was an IRA member imprisoned at the infamous HM Prison Maze in Ireland. His hunger strike began on March 1st, 1981
and lasted 66 days until his death on May 5th. Nelson Mandela has said he was "directly influenced" by Sands. I remember it all very well, and wept when he died.
Now it's happening again, this time at the infamous Guantanamo Prison in Cuba:
From an article by Carol Rosenberg of the Miami Herald:
"Two delegates from the International Committee of the Red Cross, one of them a physician, are at Guantanamo this week in an accelerated trip moved up from next month to check out the ongoing hunger strike at the war-on-terror prison.
Red Cross spokesman Simon Schorno said Tuesday that the regularly scheduled two-week mission was to have started April 1.
"However, in an effort to better understand current tensions and the ongoing hunger strike, we have decided to start this visit one week earlier." said Schorno.
As of Monday, the Pentagon considered 28 of 166 captives to meet the criteria to be considered hunger strikers. Ten were being fed nutritional supplements mostly through tubes snaked up a captive's nose and into his stomach."

There is more in the article. I saw it in the Az. Daily Star. www.azstarnet.com
It's hard to imagine these prisoners with tubes forced in their noses. They must have to be bound to keep from removing them. What a mess.

[dipsydoodle]

1. Do you have the link ?

I searched but couldn't find it.

[panader0]

2. I am not savvy enough.

I read the article in yesterday's paper. Sorry

[truebrit71]

3. The terrorist? Yup...I remember him...

[dipsydoodle]

4. btw

We had a curious situation here in the UK this week. Sinn Fein asked the British Army to go into Northern Ireland !

That was to help farmers recover high numbers of animals lost in the snow.

Many here have probably forgotten that the US didn't declare the IRA to be a terrorist organisation until 9/11.

[sabrina 1]

5. Bobby Sands was not a terrorist. And torture is not a democratic principle.

But empires always have their supporters, as we do here. Bobby Sands was in his own country which was occupied. Thankfully the huge worldwide attention those who were being tortured in Britain's version of Abu Ghraib/Guantanamo, received, finally awakened the world to the inequality and the bigotry being practiced against Ireland's native citizens.

Let's hope the same thing will result from this hunger strike. I hope they do not have to die, as Bobby Sands did, before someone with some morality and conscience steps in.

It's clear the US is out of control when it comes to human rights, as was Britain and it may be necessary for outside intervention to restore some sense of decency once again here.

[truebrit71]

8. He was a member of the IRA, a terrorist organisation, and committed acts of terrorism...

...so YES, he was a fucking terrorist...It has fuck all to do with empire, and everything to do with killing innocent people up...

[panader0]

10. Along with Patrick Henry, Paul Revere, George Washington, Nelson Mandela, Steve Biko and more....

[truebrit71]

12. Bollocks...

Absolute bollocks...

[sabrina 1]

23. Well tell that to the British. They were wanted terrorists and had they been

caught, would have been hanged, as many Irish 'terrorists' were, as traitors.

You don't seem to know much about history.

America's Founding Fathers, including Franklin, Jefferson, and anyone who signed the Declaration of Independence were wanted terrorists by the British. If they had lost their fight for Independence, we would be still calling them terrorists right here in the US today.

[sabrina 1]

14. The IRA is a centuries old organization that has many heroes, celebrated by the

people of Ireland, who died to free their country from the British empire.

Bobby Sands is a hero to the people of Ireland and always will be.

Much of the violence was promoted by undercover British agents in order to discredit the IRA, which it did. But to the people of Ireland, very aware of its long history, hundreds of years, of oppression, those heroes will always be remembered as it was they who finally freed Ireland, at least most of it, giving their lives in the process, for that freedom.

You need to read a little history. The British Empire claimed many lands but like all Empires were finally forced to give up much of the territory they occupied throughout the duration of the Empire, including right here.

Ireland's rebel forces, the IRA, were inspired by the American Revolution. Maybe you think this country actually belonged to the British also.

[truebrit71]

16. Yeah, if it wasn't for the Brits the IRA wouldn't have murdered anyone...

....don't make me laugh....

[sabrina 1]

19. If it wasn't for the Brits, the IRA would never have existed.

When a country is invaded, amazingly, its citizens generally fight back. It took 800 years and many murders of Irish Citizens in their own land, before they finally retook most of their country.

I am more than happy to post some of the bloody history of the Brits in Ireland. In fact maybe that might be a good thing. Of course it was never the fault of the people of Britain, Britain wasn't very nice to their own people either, as their long history demonstrates, just as it is not the fault of Americans, unless they refuse to speak out against it, what was done to the people of Iraq or what is being done to the innocent people shamefully being tortured in our concentration camp in Guantanamo.

I'm glad the people of both England and Ireland are at peace. It is always the elites who brutalize populations for profit. Most of the people of the world would get along fine were it not for the psychos who seem to take over.

Clinton did a good thing by lifting the ban on IRA leaders imposed by, GUESS WHO, Bush who never saw oppression he didn't like, and began the peace process by insisting on the Brits sitting down and TALKING.

One of the Kennedys married an Irish 'terrorist' btw.

[truebrit71]

20. So you support the expulsion of all non-Native Americans from the USA then, yes?

Right?

[sabrina 1]

24. No, people should be able to live wherever they want, so long as they respect

those who own the country. I have no problem with people who have lived in a country for generations being able to remain there. How do you feel about South Africa? Were for or against Apartheid? Did the SAs have a right to participate in the running of their own country?

I'm for more Native Americans participating in the running of this country and for respecting the treaties made with them by this government, which is not often the case.

Iow, I'm for fairness, equality and against oppression of any kind. I would be as outraged if anyone were to invade Britain eg. It's not that difficult, see Gandhi, Mandela, Jefferson. Why do you think these heroes, like Bobby Sands, were necessary in the first place?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

9. Practically everything you say is garbage.

> Bobby Sands was not a terrorist.

Sands was an active member of the IRA, a terrorist organisation. He was certainly involved in facilitating terrorist attacks, and almost certainly involved in carrying them out.

> But empires always have their supporters, as we do here. Bobby Sands was in his own country which was occupied.

Bobby Sands was in his own country, the UK, which is an entirely democratic and legitimate entity. Northern Ireland is part of the UK, not part of an empire, because the majority of its natives choose to be part of the UK.

> Thankfully the huge worldwide attention those who were being tortured in Britain's version of Abu Ghraib/Guantanamo, received, finally awakened the world to the inequality and the bigotry being practiced against Ireland's native citizens.

Sands wasn't tortured, so far as I know - conditions in the Maze were grim, and I can't guarantee that he wasn't unofficially tortured, but certainly it's likely that he was treated better than most of those in American supermax prisons today, and there's far less evidence that he was tortured than there is that he was a terrorist.

International pressure had very little to do with the Northern Ireland peace process. The main change was that after 9/11 terrorism became less fashionable; it became harder for the IRA to recruit supporters and financiers, both in Ireland and the USA, and they decided that it was time to stop using violence; this made it politically much easier for the UK government to deal with them. A second factor was that we finally got rid of Mrs Thatcher, and neither Major nor Blair was quite as mad as she was, and recognised that while their demand for a united Ireland was not reasonable, Northern Ireland's catholics did have many legitimate grievances that needed to be addressed.

George Mitchell and President Clinton paid valuable roles as facilitators, to be sure. But the main factors in the Northern Irish peace process were a change of strategy from Sinn Fein/IRA and a change of government in Westminster, not international pressure.

The only really significant external pressure was that Americans became less willing to endorse or equivocate about terrorism after 9/11 (although clearly that doesn't apply to you). But arguably that was the removal of pressure for violence rather than the exertion of pressure against it.

[sabrina 1]

11. The Peace Process began long before 9/11. To those who oppressed

the people of Ireland for so many centuries, the IRS was a terrorist group. And we know now that the IRA was infiltrated by undercover agents for the British Government urging them to commit violent acts. That lost them support, as intended as most supporters of Civil Rights for the people of Ireland did not support violence.

Ireland belongs to the people of Ireland. Stealing property doesn't make it yours simply because time passes.

Not that long ago, historically speaking, the Republic of Ireland was under the control of the British who claimed it as theirs also. Thankfully after 800 years and many attempts to reclaim their land, the people of that part of Ireland are a free, sovereign nation.

Violence is not necessary to restore rightful property to its rightful owners. I am confident that one day Ireland's northern province will be reunited with the rest of the country, peacefully.

Bobby Sands is a hero to the people of Ireland and always will be.

[truebrit71]

13. Northern Ireland is part of the UK. The people that live there have no desire to change that fact...

...GET. OVER. IT.

[sabrina 1]

15. That's what they said about the Republic of Ireland also.

They got over it. Ireland's freedom fighters were executed for their part in disagreeing that Ireland was 'part of the UK'. Those heroes are remembered and celebrated every year on the anniversary of their 'terrorist' uprising.

I see the Welsh and Scotland are asking for their sovereignty also.

[truebrit71]

17. Which has what to do with the citizens of N.Ireland?

I'm glad to see that you would support the native americans if they decided to start knee-capping US citizens, and blowing up shopping malls to rid themselves of their European oppressers...

[sabrina 1]

29. I'm gald you support the invasion of sovereign nations, killing the

native citizens if they resist, which they usually do, destroying cities, people, to rid themselves of any pesky native resisters, hanging, shooting, torturing anyone who dares to try to stand up against the takeover of their countries.

I am more than happy to post some of the history of both this country, South Africa, India, Ireland which you don't seem to know much about. Eg, you seem to believe that when the invaders kill, knee-cap, torture and imprison, bomb, in fact commit genocide, we should ignore it, because after all, they have the right to take whatever they want.

Eg, Ireland used to have a population of over 8 million people. But throughout the occupation of that sovereign nation, the population was cut in half.

And the Native Americans, whole tribes were wiped out. Does that bother you at all?

Let me say this again. There would have been no IRA if there had been no invasion of Ireland.

There, just wanted to emphasize that fact!

There would be no freedom fighters anywhere, if there had been no illegal invasions of their lands.

I am not unrealistic enough not to recognize that there will always be greedy, power-hungry invaders of other people's lands.

You otoh, are unrealistic enough to believe that,

1) oppressive invaders have a divine right to invade other people's lands OR

2) people whose lands are invaded have no right to resist.

Would you support the invasion of Britain without any resistance from its citizens eg? Would you call the resisters, 'terrorists' or 'freedom fighters'?

Did you support Bush's invasion of Iraq?

What should people do, in your opinion, when their countries are invaded and they are treated like human trash by the invaders?

Editied to add, if you are going to invade someone else's country and steal their resources, suppress their people, then you at least should be realistic enough to expect some resistance. And YOU can call those resistors, 'terrorists', that's what invaders generally do. But to their respective countries and to other nations, so many of them, who also were victims of illegal invasions, they will always be Freedom Fighters.

Bobby Sands killed no one. He was and is a hero whether you like or not.

[truebrit71]

33. As do you apparently if you reside in the USA...

...and regardless of your wish to whitewash the facts, Bobby Sands was a convicted terrorist...whether you like it or not...

[sabrina 1]

34. Bobby Sands was a hero.

[truebrit71]

36. Doesn't matter how many times you say it...he was a terrorist...

...your turn...

[sabrina 1]

40. What the Bobby Sands hunger strike did was to get the world's attention

focused on the infamous gulag run by the British, known as the Maze/Long Kesh and exposed the brutal torture that political prisoners were subjected to there. The world was horrified, and rightly so. Britain's version of Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo.

It was certainly embarrassing for a nation that portrayed itself as civilized, when the world got to see what they were doing in that gulag to human beings.

Even if you did not support the prisoners, no civilized person could have supported what was being done for years in that horror chamber.

I hope that the Guantanamo hunger strikers do not have to die to get the world's attention for the egregious wrongs that have been perpetrated against human beings in that concentration camp. And I hope that those responsible will be held accountable one day.

You may not view torture as a major crime, but I do. And even if I believed that the detainees were guilty, I would still vehemently oppose what was done to them and to Bobby Sands.

[HiPointDem]

35. he wasn't a convicted terrorist. the charge was possession of a firearm.

He was charged with involvement in the October 1976 bombing of the Balmoral Furniture Company in Dunmurry. He was never convicted of this charge; the presiding judge stated that there was no evidence to support the assertion that Sands had taken part in the bombing.[16]

After the bombing, Sands and at least five others were alleged to have been involved in a gun battle with the Royal Ulster Constabulary, although Sands was not convicted due to lack of evidence.

Leaving behind two of their wounded friends, Seamus Martin and Gabriel Corbett, Sands, Joe McDonnell, Seamus Finucane, and Sean Lavery tried to escape in a car, but were apprehended.

Later, one of the revolvers used in the attack was found in the car in which Sands had been travelling.[17] In 1977, prosecutors charged him with possession of the revolver from which bullets were fired at the RUC after the bombing.

After his trial and conviction, Sands was sentenced to 14 years' imprisonment within HM Prison Maze, also known as Long Kesh.[18]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobby_Sands

[truebrit71]

37. Let me correct myself, he was a convict, who belonged to, and acted for, a terrorist organisation...

...better?

[HiPointDem]

38. so was tony blair.

[sabrina 1]

45. Bobby Sands was a political prisoner in his own land, Ireland.

Long Kesh/The Maze was a torture chamber where Irish people who were asking for equality, were kept, often falsely charged with simply being Irish. It was dangerous to be a native Irish young man, regardless of whether you were doing anything wrong or not.

The native Irish people in NI were deprived of civil rights, they could not participate in elections, a nice, Machiavellian trick, unless they owned a home. They could not buy a home since they were kept in a state of poverty, discriminated against because of their heritage.

The Civil Rights movement in the '60s began the fight for equality and to end prejudice against the Irish people.

The NI Civil Rights Movement received support from all the world, making the British Government very nervous as the despicable bigotry was revealed for the world to see.

To quote the Rev. Ian Paisley when asked here in this country, why he 'hated Irish Catholics (the 'troubles' btw were never about religion but that's another story) 'I don't hate Kyatholicks, I just wish they were all dead'. Bigotry is an ugly thing, no matter where it rears its ugly head.

Bobby Sands was a political prisoner. He joined the historical hunger strike to protest the horrific conditions to which political prisoners were subjected.

The world was watching and finally the dark ugly secrets of that gulag were revealed for the world to see.

That infamous place has been destroyed, but the heroism of those who died exposing the bigotry and inequality that was so much a part of the lives of the people there, will not be forgotten.

And here in the US we have our own shameful version of Long Kesh. People have to be pretty desperate to be willing to die rather live in the conditions of that concentration camp in Guantanamo. I hope their efforts are successful in pressuring this government to shut it down.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

18. When are you giving the USA back to the "Native Americans"?

>Stealing property doesn't make it yours simply because time passes.

Yes it does, both legally and morally, for certain values of "yours".

If I legally acquire something in good faith then, legally, it doesn't matter if it was stolen by the person I acquired it from - in the eyes of the law, it's mine


Similarly, if my ancestors have lived somewhere for more generations than anyone can remember (and the ancestors of the protestants in Northern Ireland have been there since well before the USA declared independence), then I have as much right to continue to live there as anyone else.

The future of Northern Ireland should, and will, be settled democratically. Suggesting that the votes of people whose ancestors have lived there for a few millenia should count for more than those of people whose ancestors have merely lived there for a handful of centuries is absurd.

Northern Ireland is in the hands of its rightful owners, and now that the IRA has laid down its arms there is no risk that that will change - for as long as the majority want it to, it will stay British; if that changes, it will become part of Ireland, and either way that will be the right result. I don't give a damn which, but I do care that it is decided democratically, and I care that people who commit murder get sent to jail (and I don't much care if they choose to kill themselves, provided it's a free choice and they are in no way driven to it or encouraged, and are in their right minds).


The IRA was a terrorist group; there is "to" about it. Bobby Sands was a terrorist and almost certainly a murderer; certainly an enabler of murder. His cause was the overthrow of democracy, nothing less - an aggravating, not a mitigating factor. He was treated more or less as he should have been by the British security forces, and his death was on no-ones head but his own. One should never celebrate death, but I mourn his less than I mourn the death of anyone who didn't kill themselves, or of anyone who wasn't a murderer.


On Edit: quotes to highlight that most Americans are small-n native, not to challenge the rights of large-N Native Americans to that term.

[sabrina 1]

21. Unfortunately your claim of living somewhere for generations doesn't hold true.

See the Republic of Ireland which was occupied for 800 years eg. And throughout that period of time, the people of Ireland were told they did not own it, after all as time went by, the invaders were the rightful owners.

But the rightful owners of the land eventually prevailed. Are you saying that the Republic of Ireland is a terrorist nation?

[sabrina 1]

22. I'm all for giving the US back to Native Americans.

It's not exactly a shining light of freedom, here or anywhere else, much like the British Empire, which ironically we kicked out of here because of how they were treating people here. Much like Ireland threw them out. And India etc.

You need to take a look at history, the Brits have a long, sad, history of stealing land and oppressing the natives who owned it.

Sorry, but you are attempting to change history. I have no problem condemning the actions of this Government. You don't have to defend the criminal actions of your government in order to love your country.

Why are you defending the brutality and crimes of the British Empire which are well established? Empires are nasty, they have to be to keep their stolen
'assets' as the victims generally are not happy about being robbed.

That is why OUR FOUNDING FATHERS wrote a Constitution to prevent this country from becoming like the Empire we threw out.

Do you support this country's invasions of foreign nations, like Iraq eg?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

30. I'm not defending the British Empire; NI is not part of it.

NI is part of the UK; it was never part of the empire.

[sabrina 1]

32. NI is part of Ireland. It always was, for centuries. It still is.

For now, for economic reasons and because no one wants any more violence, it has not yet been reunited with the rest of the country. But that does not change the fact that it is part of the country it has always been a part of. It was stolen, as was the rest of Ireland.

An agreement was made with the British after the 'rebels'/'terrorists', restored Ireland to its rightful owners after 800 years of occupation, to divide the country. That was not a popular decision. But you are correct, no part of Ireland was ever part of the British Empire despite their claims to their right to rule it.

True of so many other nations now independent from British rule, also.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

6. I remember the US backed contras/death squads were called freedom fighters.

Perspective, perspective.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

7. The practice is nothing new.

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/force_feeding_suffragettes.htm

“I was then surrounded and forced back onto the chair, which was tilted backward. There were about ten persons around me. The doctor then forced my mouth so as to form a pouch, and held me while one of the wardresses poured some liquid from a spoon; it was milk and brandy. After giving me what he thought was sufficient, he sprinkled me with eau de cologne, and wardresses then escorted me to another cell on the first floor. The wardresses forced me onto a bed (in the cell) and two doctors came in with them. While I was held down a nasal tube was inserted. It was two yards long, with a funnel at the end; there was a glass junction in the middle to see if the liquid was passing. The end was put up left and right nostrils on alternate days. Great pain was experienced during the process, both mental and physical. One doctor inserted the end up my nostril while I was held down by the wardresses, during which process they must have seen my pain, for the other doctor interfered (the matron and two other wardresses were in tears) and they stopped and resorted to feeding me by spoon. More eau de cologne was used

[Cooley Hurd]

25. I remember Bobby...

What a sad event.

[panader0]

26. Nine other IRA prisoners died as well as Sands

The hunger strike was halted in Oct of 1981. The HM prison was demolished in 2006.
Now the prisoners at Gitmo are staging a hunger strike. I want that prison demolished as well.

[Cooley Hurd]

27. Seconded. Its very nature goes against every tenet of US Law...

[sabrina 1]

43. Thank you. I want Guantanamo demolished also and maybe a monument

built to remember all the innocent people who were tortured and died there.

Bobby Sands gave his life to expose the crimes being committed in that other infamous hell hole.

Thank you for and everyone who is trying to help those tortured, innocent people. We on the Left used to care about such criminal violations of human rights.

[graham4anything]

28. This has nothing to do with Bobby Sands. Actually, it is exploiting him.

I seriously doubt Bobby Sands would have endorsed blowing up the World Trade Center and killing 3000 people and bankrupting his own people.

Not that I am speaking for him, nor should anyone here speak about him.

It is as viable as the ones who wear that mask that V for Vengence, the rightwing anarchist terrorist extremist wore in the book/movie that destroyed property

As viable as those that excuse McVeightheCoward with his paranoia about a bunch of rightwing extremists who blew themselves up in Waco after asssasssinating federal agents


BTW, Benjamin Franklin would have been for Gitmo, when he said "An ounce of Prevention is worth a pound of cure" and he would have been agahst that someone was blowing up the status symbol of his republic that he gave us.

[sabrina 1]

42. It has everything to do with Bobby Sands. Those detainees have been

found guilty of NOTHING. In fact most of them are due to be released after being wrongfully held in isolation, tortured, denied visits with their loved ones for years.

Guantanamo Bay is a gulag, a torture chamber. Just like Long Kesh, where Bobby Sands was held.

The hunger strikers at Long Kesh, including Bobby Sands were political prisoners, and they were being tortured. Their hunger strike brought the world's attention to the crimes being committed there.

These political prisoners, innocent and without any charges, will hopefully do what our government has shamefully failed to do, bring world attention to the crimes against humanity being committed there.

Bobby Sands never killed anyone, the Brits called him a 'terrorist'. But they called Gandhi, Mandela, and so many others who resisted the crimes being perpetrated on innocent people, 'terrorists' also.

Why is that gulag still operating in a Democracy??? And when will the real criminals be prosecuted in this country?

[KoKo]

31. Recommend...

[KG]

39. the u.s. is a stinking torture state.

[happynewyear]

41. K&R!!!

RIP Bobby Sands!

IRELAND FOR THE IRISH!!!

[Starry Messenger]

44. k&r

[RB TexLa]

46. Can we not mention patriots in the same breath with terrorists?

[Cleita]

48. When it comes to being humane to incarcerated human beings, I can't figure out the difference. n/t

[Cleita]

47. I do.

Maggie Thatcher wouldn't budge on him. Who is our Maggie?