Two Spirit people. (I learn something new every day)

[OriginalGeek]

http://www.firstpeople.us/articles/the-two-spirit-people-of-indigenous-north-americans.html

I screen capped this as the site seems to disallow copy and paste. Go read the whole article please. It's too bad European christian settlers didn't (and some still don;t) have the same respect for LBGT that Native Americans have had for millennia.

[MillennialDem]

1. While a similar issue, transgender would be a more accurate way to refer to such individuals.

[Lex]

3. Not necessarily. nt

[OriginalGeek]

8. Yeah I think they covered

everything they could think of. Very inclusive and a good example of people just damn doing the right thing.

[Lex]

11. yes, and just because there's an 'effeminate' man doesn't mean he

wants to be a woman, or a so-called 'butch' woman doesn't mean she wants to be a man. These people aren't "transgendered"-- they are being who they are. They don't want to transition to the opposite sex.

[a la izquierda]

39. I think native communities...

Know how to refer to their own members.

[MillennialDem]

40. Uh, I did not mean to change how native Americans refer to them. I meant transgender is

a better way to refer to a two spirit person than effeminate man or masculine woman, which the article does.

Though some of the other posters are correct it does not necessarily mean transgender there are feminine men (and masculine women), and yes you are correct in the sense that there is no direct translation and we should probably just use two spirit.

[a la izquierda]

45. Sorry...

Sometimes tone doesn't translate well.
My bad.

[d_r]

2. I'm afraid the asshole brigade

would think that is just one of the reasons that the white folks had to come in and christianize the poor heathens.

[OriginalGeek]

9. I work with a Native American

and he tells me stories of growing up on reservations up north. Mostly he was happy however when he was kid he remembers being told by the church that if he would just accept christ as his savior not only would he get to go to heaven but God would would make him white too. That was about the time he figured they were full of shit. "Asshole Brigade" describes that type very well and has for a long time.

[donquijoterocket]

14. Indeed

Just one more example of the wisdom we could have learned from these people if we'd not been so intent on stealing their land ,even if that meant genocide and the extinction of an animal species to accomplish the deed.

[Cracklin Charlie]

4. I watched Little Big Man a few nights ago.

There was a "two spirit" character in the movie. He was a friend of Little Big Man from the time he was a small boy, and his character was re-visited a few times during the movie. His character was portrayed respectfully, without derision, or stereotype.

Interesting topic.

[OriginalGeek]

6. I've heard of that movie for a long time

but I've never seen it. I'll have to go look it up.

[Hekate]

36. Both the book and the movie are very good

I still have my old first edition paperback around someplace, the spine patched with masking tape, the pages turning brown. Some day I'll get a hardcover copy for myself and re-read it yet again.

[The Magistrate]

43. When You Do, Ma'am

See if you can find 'Crazy In Berlin' by the same author....

[CBGLuthier]

12. It may have arguably been the first non-negative portrayal of homosexuality in american film.

Gonna have to think on that for a bit but considering its age and all it certainly would be a contender.

[OriginalGeek]

16. I was just looking up the film on IMDB

and there in the comments was a post about the same thing: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0065988/board/nest/11560038?d=72854256&p=1#72854256

I'm sending an email to my wife right now to add this to the list of Blu-Rays I want if we ever see it for sale.

[riverwalker]

26. Robert Little Star

his character was named "Little Horse"

[RainDog]

27. that's one of my "holiday" movies

I watch it just about every year around Thanksgiving and Christmas.

[eShirl]

37. That is one of my favorite movies of all time.

First saw it as an older kid and it has stayed with me.
It is in the comedy genre but I hope that doesn't dissuade anyone from seeing it.

[TheKentuckian]

42. Great movie!

[bvar22]

5. Proud DURec!

!

[OriginalGeek]

7. Thank you!

[MsPithy]

10. Fascinating!

Thank you.

[NBachers]

13. Why isn't the Atheist Brigade here heaping ridicule on the "spirit world" references?

[HiPointDem]

15. they tolerate NA religiousity, wicca, buddhism. Their militancy is selective.

[OriginalGeek]

18. I tolerate christianity too

when it doesn't advocate for evil (in my opinion).

[OriginalGeek]

17. I am an atheist

I don't heap ridicule on people who are doing the right thing - no matter what they believe.

[justiceischeap]

21. You somehow managed to take a very positive post about marriage equality

and turned into a referendum against atheists. As a lesbian atheist, that is much more insulting than questioning whether there is a "spirit world" or not.

[OriginalGeek]

22. Iwonder if NB and HPD are christians

they seem particularly put out that Native American beliefs aren't attacked. And therein they display why christianity sometimes is.

[justiceischeap]

23. Yes, not once has an avowed atheist brought up the sordid Christian history

among the Native people's. (Until now, by my referencing it).

[OriginalGeek]

24. well, technically I did upthread

but only to relate what a Native American told me directly of his experience with christianity when he was a kid. I further commented that _those_ christians (who would tell a young boy that he needed to be saved to go to heaven and be white) were assholes.

I'll stand by that assessment until I die.

on a side note, thank you for being in my thread and noting that it was a positive account on marriage equality.

[justiceischeap]

25. I've always wondered had the settlers and Christians left the Native people's alone

how much a better place the US would be. If our forefathers had taken the time to learn from them instead of imposing their will on them...

Anyway, thanks for posting this in the first place.

[retrogal]

30. Mormons

The Mormons went into reservations and fostered or adopted children. Later came back and said the children were lighter skinned compared to their siblings that had remained on the reservation. I don't know about other churches but I know the mormons made a big deal about it.

[sibelian]

38. Because they perceive it to be "cuddly liberal woo", and therefore not malicious

... although not to be taken at all seriously.

[OriginalGeek]

44. Sorry

You don't get to speak for atheists. You're the one not to be taken seriously now.

[sibelian]

46. It's just the truth....

why deny it?

[pansypoo53219]

19. it seems 'savage' and 'primitive' is far more advanced humans. advancement is financially driven.

i'll stick w/ better humans.

[WinstonSmith4740]

20. Ancora Imparo!

Thanks for the post. I live near a Native American reservation and tutor there...never knew this. Thanks for posting it...I WILL be using it the next time I hear one of those kids using the word "gay" as a pejorative .

[riverwalker]

28. a book for further reading

"Living the Spirit" Edited by Will Roscoe 1988

http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/109446282

The first specifically gay and lesbian collection of Native writing was Living the Spirit: A Gay American Indian Anthology, edited by Will Roscoe in 1988.


Review "This is a fascinating book for any open-minded person interested in spirituality of different culture or American Indians. The essays in it are written by gay American Indians of different tribes. There are both poems and essays, some more erudite than others, some more accessible to the layman than others, but all are interesting."

[shireen]

29. a graceful perspective

I love it. Two spirits is such a beautiful term.

[Emit]

31. "Two Spirits" ~ an award-winning Independent Lens Documentary about Fred Martinez

Two Spirits interweaves the tragic story of a mother’s loss of her son with a revealing look at the largely unknown history of a time when the world wasn’t simply divided into male and female and many Native American cultures held places of honor for people of integrated genders.

Fred Martinez was nádleehí, a male-bodied person with a feminine nature, a special gift according to his ancient Navajo culture. He was one of the youngest hate-crime victims in modern history when he was brutally murdered at 16. Two Spirits explores the life and death of this boy who was also a girl, and the essentially spiritual nature of gender.

~snip~

Two Spirits mourns the young Fred Martinez and the threatened disappearance of the two-spirit tradition, but it also brims with hope and the belief that we all are enriched by multi-gendered people, and that all of us — regardless of ethnicity, gender, sexuality, or cultural heritage — benefit from being free to be our truest selves.

http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/two-spirits/

Just saw a discussion on gender that highlighted this at a gender identity conference a few weeks ago

[sibelian]

32. Yes... I was aware of this. I dreamed once where I saw myself in a mirror. There were two of me.

Both of my reflections, both male, one beside the other, looked kind of like me.

One was very tall and elegant, exceedlingy pale, slicked back hair, standing ramrod straight, very well dressed in a tuxedo, holding a cigarette and had a calm expression. He seemed tremendously self-possessed, unemotional, sophisticated and civilised.

The other was shorter, broader, stronger, scruffier and more sinewy, and had longish, slightly unkempt hair. He was dressed in denim, had weathered skin, and he seemed alert, animal, grubby, down-to-earth, ordinary, wary and poor.

I am ambivalent regarding the meaning of this dream, if it has one, but the Two Spirit idea does seem to fit.

On relating this dream to a friend, she remarked that I was probably the padded cell in which God had chosen to reincarnate two gentleman who were required to learn how to get on with one another...

[Voice for Peace]

33. it sounds also like a description of twins

and reminded me of this odd phenomenon..

when you cover one eye, and look at yourself, in the eye,
in the mirror; then cover the other eye and do the same;
see how different each eye is, as if two people are there.

[liberal_at_heart]

34. I will have to tell my dad about this.

We have Cherokee and Spanish heritage. He has always been interested in this heritage but he is afraid. He is afraid he ill displease God and he will not get into Heaven, so he has abandoned his heritage and bought into the belief that the evangelical Christian path is the only way into Heaven, and that same sex marriage goes against God's law.

[David Zephyr]

35. And thanks to you, OriginalGeek, I learned something new today. K&R.

Many thanks for taking the time to post this here.

[arikara]

41. I heard that some NA cultures believe

that there are 5 genders. It makes sense to me.

[Kurovski]

47. i remember reading about tribal gay stuff in "Gay American History" from the late seventies.

K&R