White House - more tech immigrants needed

[flexnor]

http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2012/02/02/conversation-we-people-about-immigration-policy

"That’s why the President supports legislative measures that would attract and retain immigrants who create jobs and boost competitiveness here in the U.S. – including "stapling" green cards to the diplomas of certain foreign-born graduates in science, technology, engineering, and math (STEM) fields – as a part of his vision for building a 21st century immigration system.

We reiterated this message on our call, and also discussed what the Administration is doing—independent of Congress—to help improve existing immigration policies to attract and keep the best and the brightest in our country. During the Q&A session, callers raised many concerns regarding F-1 and other visas targeted for highly skilled immigrants. Among these was a question regarding the possibility of extending employment authorization to certain spouses of H-1B visa holders who are awaiting the adjudication of green card applications"

[Cleita]

1. How about free education through university to create our

own home grown techs here?

I'm not against a rational and humane immigration program, but this isn't it.

[CrispyQ]

2. +1

[Zalatix]

3. But we ALREADY have a glut of qualified graduates who can't find work!

This is all about finding cheap labor.

Case in point:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/17/student-guestworkers-at-hershey-plant_n_930014.html

[Cleita]

6. I'm afraid you are right.

The real motives are so transparent.

[mainer]

23. The ones in your link aren't tech people but laborers.

Here in Maine, many hotels and restaurants have had to bring in guest workers from eastern europe -- they really can't find enough local kids during the summers.

[liberalhistorian]

80. I have trouble believing that they're really telling the truth.

We live in the same state as a nationally-known monument and state park, where my family has vacationed all of my life, for over forty years, along with family friends and their children. We are now on the third generation to vacation there. Some of the college-age children, my son included, have applied to work at the resort for the summer, as have many of the local and statewide residents. Given the fact that they are all quite knowledgeable about the area and enthusiastic about it, and given the fact that the park and resort used to have plenty of local and state residents employed there in all capacities and they were quite knowledgeable and helpful, we figured they'd have no problem at least getting an interview.

Not only did they never even consider them, the new management company began hiring from overseas, including people who worked in the restaurant and as guides who could hardly speak, let alone understand, English and who knew and cared nothing about the park, the resort, or area attractions. They were rude, to boot, making remarks about having to clean up after "rich Americans", etc. We're hardly rich, we save all damn year to enjoy a week at the place and we still have to be careful. In forty-plus years, my family (first my parents and now us) have spent tens of thousands of dollars, if not more, there, and yet our children who know and love the place cannot even get an interview.

The national unemployment rate for young adults is far higher than that of any other group, and this will affect them employment-wise for many years to come. If the company really, truly could not find enough local help, if they insist on having to import workers to fill needs, then there's no reason why they couldn't do so with kids in other states who desperately need work. It's all about getting the cheapest, most exploitable labor, period. THAT is what it is about.

[mainer]

85. Um, well, I know these innkeepers

and they say local kids just aren't available anymore. Or they'd rather do something else besides clean hotel rooms.

[liberalhistorian]

88. Then, if that's really true and they must import workers,

why can't they get them from other states with high youth unemployment? Seems to me that'd be cheaper than having to go overseas. A lot cheaper. I know my son would jump at the chance for that, as would many of his unemployed and desperate friends.

[mainer]

95. Check out this site

it's for summer jobs in Bar Harbor, but it looks like you have to be 18 to stay in the dormitories. I imagine if you're younger and have other housing, they might take you on.

http://www.coolworks.com/the-acadia-corporation/profile

Also, more seasonal jobs at restaurants here:

http://voices.yahoo.com/restaurant-summer-jobs-bar-harbor-maine-2742172.html?cat=31

Every time we go up to Bar Harbor, it seems that a lot of the wait staff is from eastern Europe.

[Life Long Dem]

59. The President was talking about retaining the H1-b's who come over here.

If they stayed here would we need to bring more over? That's the question I have.

[renate]

4. absolutely!

[flexnor]

5. or we could just hire the techs we've already grown here

the answer to the sham labor test for green cars seems to be to end the labor certification process completely, by 'stapling' them to diplomas (google PERM Fake youtuble, if that link above doesnt show). not sure that would have been my suggestion

" create jobs and boost competitiveness here in the U.S. – including "stapling" green cards to the diplomas of certain foreign-born graduates in science, technology, engineering, and math (STEM) fields "

Obama seemed sure in the google hangout, that a woman's husband who was unemployed should be able to get a job 'right away'. what's wrong with keeping a labor certification (even a flawed one) to verify that - or is 'The Word' good enough for us all, for all time?

[Zalatix]

10. But don't you care about the poor people in other countries??? Don't you???

Seriously there are at LEAST two DU'ers who can be counted on to come by and whine about our "xenophobia and isolationism" whenever someone makes common sense posts like yours.

[flexnor]

11. when they say WE should give OUR jobs, and not just YOU should give YOUR job, I'll listen

never quite understood why I was soley responsible for righting every wrong of our country.

"can be counted on to come by and whine about our "xenophobia and isolationism" whenever someone makes common sense posts like yours."

In Orwell's parlance, xenophobia and isolationism are forms of crimethink, and calling you a xenophoble is a crimestop. H-1b does not displace American tech workers, and anyone who claims they have been harmed are unpersons



crimethink - To even consider any thought not in line with the principles of Ingsoc. Doubting any of the principles of Ingsoc. All crimes begin with a thought. So, if you control thought, you can control crime. "Thoughtcrime is death. Thoughtcrime does not entail death, Thoughtcrime is death.... The essential crime that contains all others in itself."

crimestop - Orwell's definition: "The faculty of stopping short, as though by instinct, at the threshold of any dangerous thought. It includes the power of not grasping analogies, of failing to perceive logical errors, of misunderstanding the simplest arguments if they are inimical to Ingsoc, and of being bored or repelled by any train of thought which is capable of leading in a heretical direction. In short....protective stupidity."

unperson - Person that has been erased from existence by the government for breaking the law in some way. A unperson is completely erased from history. All records of their existence is removed from record, and all party members are expected to removed them from memory. To mention their name is considered thoughtcrime. This eliminates any possibility of martyrdom.


http://www.newspeakdictionary.com/ns-dict.html

[hunter]

7. Too few U.S. citizens bright enough for this sciency stuff...

... which seems pretty obvious when you look at some of the brainless, spineless, poisonous, oozing amoeboid creatures we've voted into Congress.

Naw, that's too easy.

Actually this is just another way of "exporting" jobs, specifically jobs in education.

Scientists, doctors, engineers, and high-tech people from other nations can accept less pay than U.S. citizens simply because their high quality educations cost less. They don't carry the burden of student loans bigger than a brand new five bedroom MacMansion in the suburbs.

[NotThisTime]

70. Your first thought is likely correct. My Alma Mater, my major this year had 100% employment

with an average starting salary of 63K out of college. This was for BS CS majors who had internship experience. The jobs are in desperate need of filling, the H1B's I worked with made no less than I did....

[cherokeeprogressive]

81. I'm curious as to why you don't identify your Alma Mater... "100% EMPLOYMENT" means EVERY graduate.

Every graduate.

100%... that means EVERY one. Not ONE graduate who has yet to find a job.

Don't be shy... What's your Alma Mater and what's your major?

You've made an almost impossible claim. Do us a favor, and back it up.

[limpyhobbler]

83. notice they did say "BS CS majors who had internship experience"

That would be computer science majors.

I find it believable, especially at a smaller school.

So if anything that just underscores the need for more training and internships. That what it says to me anyways.

[flexnor]

8. Immigration lawyers train HR departments on how to not find American workers

dont take my word for it, see for yourself

maybe if we quit training HR departments on how to not find Americans, they would find Americans

[Morning Dew]

12. That video is shocking. n/m

[flexnor]

13. shocking only that they put it on video, not that they do it

I had that process described exactly to me by an indian co-worker on an H-1b 10 years before that vedeo was made - only in his case, they put some requirements in the ad that had NOTHING to do with our job site, but that he had on his resume - so his resume was magically 'The Perfect Match'

not many tech workers who see that video for the first time learn anything new - it just became so widespread that the law firm became numb to the risk of filming it - they thought American tech workers were such a totally disenfranchised class that no one would do anything about it

[joshcryer]

74. Right wing propaganda. H1B is capped at 85k. We simply have ruined our education...

...over the past 30 years, so we've fallen behind.

Yes, PERM's goal is to get the green card. But it is irrelevant what their goal is when there is a hard cap to how many get one.

[flexnor]

82. that PERM Fake video is 'Right Wing Propaganda?'

the Programmers Guild made it, it's a group a programmers who got tired of being beat up by the H-1b program

they're anything but right wing, 'guild' is actually a term related to 'union'

and the H-1b program is not hard capped at 85k,

all h-1bs used by educational, research or non-profits are exempt from the cap, even if deployed from a 'for profit' body shop

that cap is anything but 'hard'

and the whole point of this thread, is that green cards will be 'stapled' to degrees, so there will be no 'cap' at all

[flexnor]

9. Is this really the time to drop labor certification test for green cards?

that's what this " including "stapling" green cards to the diplomas of certain foreign-born graduates in science, technology, engineering, and math (STEM) fields " implies

just a few days ago, Obama told a wife of an unemployed semiconducter engineer, that he got 'The Word' that the husband shouldnt be having any problems finding a job

so are we substituting 'The Word' (which had not been clearly defined) for the labor certification test? sure seems like it

[SunsetDreams]

15. Question?

Do you have something against green cards?

[flexnor]

16. not per se. but this video below shows that the tradition has been

to make sure that Americans are not displaced by the granting of a green card - that's what the PERM process is all about, even when it is totally abused as the vedeo below shows

by 'stapling' green cards to degrees, that's a defacto change in policy of the green card process - we are allowed to discuss that, arent we?

[SunsetDreams]

18. You still didn't answer, what does "not per se" mean?

I saw the video that you posted already.

Are you against green cards?

[flexnor]

19. i did answer

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/per_se

From Latin per se (“by itself”), from per (“by, through”), and se (“itself, himself, herself, themselves”).

[edit] Pronunciation(UK) IPA: /pəːˈseɪ/
(US) IPA: /pɚːˈseɪ/
[edit] Adverbper se (not comparable)

1.By itself; without consideration of extraneous factors.
The law makes drunk driving illegal per se.


and that has been policy forever, that the usa is not against permanent residency 'per se', we just want to make sure that it does not displace Americans, and that's why there is a labor certification test

'stapling' green cards is a de facto change of policy, that drops the labor certification tests

[SunsetDreams]

21. Actually you did not answer, however

I hope you realize that quoting a blog by someone other than the President, doesn't make it policy.
I hope you will also realize that you left out an important part of the paragraph you quoted that preceded your quote.

"On our call, we discussed the impact that existing immigration laws have on foreign students who have earned advanced degrees in American schools. As President Obama said during his State of the Union address, it makes no sense to allow these talented students to come to the U.S. and “to study business and science and engineering, but as soon as they get their degree, we send them home to invent new products and create new jobs somewhere else.”

This means that those "stapling" green cards are attached to Resumes of those who are qualified. They have advanced degrees in American Schools. It doesn't mean that they are just selecting any immigrant, they are looking at their qualifications. By "stapling a green card", could that not also mean, that they are proving that the immigrant is here on a Permanent basis, and lives and works in the USA? They would need to show the green card anyway, would they not?

FYI, when I asked you if you were against Green Cards, and what not per se meant, what I really hoped was that you would explain in your own words what you meant. I didn't expect you to give me the wiki dictionary meaning. Surely you know what you meant by what you posted, and surely you know the answer to that question yourself.

[flexnor]

27. I did answer

that i am not against them 'per se', and that I am not for dropping or weakening the labor certification process -

'what I really hoped was that you would explain in your own words what you meant. '

those ARE my own words, unless you mean that I invented every word I used, which nobody does

in this paragraph

"
This means that those "stapling" green cards are attached to Resumes of those who are qualified. They have advanced degrees in American Schools. It doesn't mean that they are just selecting any immigrant, they are looking at their qualifications. By "stapling a green card", could that not also mean, that they are proving that the immigrant is here on a Permanent basis, and lives and works in the USA? They would need to show the green card anyway, would they not? "

you still ignored the issue of labor market certification

[SunsetDreams]

30. Quoting wiki dictionary "not per se"

is not answering the question, and it is not your words.

I did answer the issue of labor market certification. "They have advanced degrees in American Schools. It doesn't mean that they are just selecting any immigrant, they are looking at their qualifications."

Now will you answer the green card questions?

"By "stapling a green card", could that not also mean, that they are proving that the immigrant is here on a Permanent basis, and lives and works in the USA? They would need to show the green card anyway, would they not?"

[flexnor]

31. I did answer

I used a term you were not familiar with, you asked what it meant, I gave you the dictionary definition of the term, because I had used the term correctly, therefore, the dictionary gives the best answer

The fact that a stranger (you) whom I have never met was unfamailiar with a fairly common policy term, does not mean that it is 'not my own words'. You've never met me before - how can you possibly know what are or are not my own words?

"I did answer the issue of labor market certification. "They have advanced degrees in American Schools. It doesn't mean that they are just selecting any immigrant, they are looking at their qualifications."

Now will you answer the green card questions?

"By "stapling a green card", could that not also mean, that they are proving that the immigrant is here on a Permanent basis, and lives and works in the USA? They would need to show the green card anyway, would they not?"
"

that still does NOT address the labor certification process described (and abused) in that video. It is not just my opinion that the labor market should be checked, it is current LAW.

'Stapling' a green card is a change of policy, that implies omission fo the labor certification

[SunsetDreams]

34. oh my goodness...

"I used a term you were not familiar with, you asked what it meant, do I gave you the dictionary definition of the term, because I had used the term correctly, therefore, the dictionary gives the best answer

The fact that a stranger (you) whom I have never met was unfamailiar with their fairly common policy term, does not mean that it is 'not my own words'. You've never met me before - how can you possibly know what are or are not my own words?"

If one asked you what YOU meant by a term, it doesn't mean that, that person does not know what the term "not per se" means. "how can you possibly know what are or are not my own words?" Exactly, I can't possibly know what you mean by just posting a definition, which is why I was asking. The dictionary definition does not talk about this issue, which is why I needed your own words on this issue. Now can we move past the dictionary definition of "not per se"?

Stapling a green card does not imply omission to the labor certification. I don't understand where you get that implication from. Would they not need to show their green card anyway? If they are qualified for the position through degrees from American Schools, does that negate "labor certification"?

[flexnor]

37. labor certification

labor certification means advertising the position, interviewing American citizens and attesting that 'no qualified American wanted the position'. That video shows that is current law, even if it is a sham.

'Stapling' a green card implies replacing the above process with a stapler, taking the green card, putting on top of the degree, pushing it into the stapler, pushing down on the stapler to push a staple through both pieces of paper, then bending the points of the staple on the lower part of the stapler inwards, releasing the stapler from the pieces of paper under the power of it's spring, and pulling out 2 pieces of paper stuck together....and asking NO questions about whether a 'qualified and interested US worker' was displaced in the process of granting the green car, as the LAW requires now

[SunsetDreams]

39. Where would you suggest putting the green card?

If not stapled to the Resume/Application so that they can prove they are legally able to live an work here, where should it go?

How do you know they are not looking at other qualified applicants?

BTW, thank you for explaining how a stapler works. I surely did not know that, I appreciate it so much.

[flexnor]

40. i'd suggest leaving it in the same place it is now

at the end of a labor certification process

[SunsetDreams]

41. Where should they prove they are qualified

to live and work in the United States?

If not stapled to the Application/Resume?

[flexnor]

43. we're talking in circles here

under current law, a green card is granted when sponsored by an employer, because they 'cant find a qualified and interested US worker'. it is granted AFTER they 'certify' that, and not before.

it is the law. no ifs ands or buts

if you favor a change of law, (which you seem to do), then at least admit that you are favoring a change of law

[SunsetDreams]

46. No we are not talking in circles

A simple answer to my question is all that is needed here.

"Are you a U.S. citizen?" That question is found on many employer applications. If not they would need to prove that they can live and work in the U.S. How would they do that in this situation? Attaching a green card to a Resume/Application sounds like a great idea to me. They need to prove it to the employer do they not? If you don't think it's a good idea to have one stapled to the Application/Resume how else will they prove it?

Please don't put words into my type about changing the law. I have stated nothing of the sort.

A green card is not just gained when sponsored by an employer.

Here:

http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.eb1d4c2a3e5b9ac89243c6a7543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=ae853ad15c673210VgnVCM100000082ca60aRCRD&vgnextchannel=ae853ad15c673210VgnVCM100000082ca60aRCRD

[flexnor]

48. dropping the labor certification process is changing the law

and that's my last word on that

[SunsetDreams]

50. I'm not advocating dropping the labor certification process

You are implying that somehow, attaching a green card to an application/resume is dropping the labor certification process. What I am not understanding here, is where would they put the PROOF that they have a right to live and work in the U.S.A, if they don't attach it? You imply that the mere stapling of a green card to the Resume, means that they ignore the law, and don't look at other qualified applicants in the hiring process. You ignore the fact that those applicants who do staple a green card, are qualified by having a degree in an American School. Does it mean they will get the job? Does it mean that all other applicants who are qualified will somehow be left out of the process, because there is a green card attached?

[joshcryer]

79. Green card (permanent residence) is a lot better than H1B that returns the worker after...

...they gain experience.

[SunsetDreams]

14. "who have earned Advanced Degrees in American Schools"

You left out part of the paragraph preceding your quote.

"On our call, we discussed the impact that existing immigration laws have on foreign students who have earned advanced degrees in American schools. As President Obama said during his State of the Union address, it makes no sense to allow these talented students to come to the U.S. and “to study business and science and engineering, but as soon as they get their degree, we send them home to invent new products and create new jobs somewhere else.”

http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2012/02/02/conversation-we-people-about-immigration-policy

[hfojvt]

20. shouldn't that be

"foreign students who have" gotten FREE education from Universtities that are subsidized by American taxpayers.

Many of those foreign students are here on scholarships, or teaching or research assistantships.

Although to be fair, where I went to graduate school it seemed to be about 60-40, at least, between American and foreign students with scholarships.

But the fact is that lots of graduates do not "invent new products or create jobs" in the United States. What they do is they get good paying jobs as professors, once again, paid by American taxpayers.

But what they hell. Meantime I have an MA, and could easily teach economics or calculus at least as well or better as the average foreign born student who got a free education from American taxpayers and now gets paid six figures by American taxpayers. But instead I get to work as a janitor or a factory temp.

[flexnor]

22. 'I get to work as a janitor'

not if Newt has anything to say about it

in Newt's world, someone who goes through life as a janitor is part of an overpriviaged elite, that only child labor can remedy

[mainer]

24. "Subsidized by American taxpayers"???

I thought foreign students were big boons to US universities because they bring in tuition cash from their home countries/families?

[flexnor]

29. It's impossible to really know, University accounting books are about as opaque as

the Catholic Church's

[hunter]

42. Nope, they got their "free" education in other nations.

Then they get their advanced degree in the USA. Generally their families pay for that, or they work their way through as research assistants, teaching assistants, or, in the case of medical graduates, as resident physicians.

The USA is getting the free ride, not the student.

[hfojvt]

53. "they work their way through"

that's what I said, except that I see a research or teaching assistantship as a scholarship.

Which may be another part of the problem. The American student graduating with their BA and student loan debt cannot, unlike myself and debt free foreign students, afford to live on assistanship pay, and it just seems like taking on more debt to goto graduate school.

Considering, though, that they got their graduate education for free (along with a very low-paying job (sort of - a graduate assistantship at UNL pays about $10,500 IIRC, whereas I was making $11,000 as a part time janitor or $17,000 as a factory temp - and those were my good jobs) and they later get good paying jobs. I wonder if they are getting more from the US or contributing more to the US.

Perhaps their research produces more wealth than the salaries they are paid, but if that is the case, then why does tuition keep going up?

[hunter]

60. Current tuition rates are a financial bubble, just like the housing market was a bubble.

There's going to be hell to pay.

[FarCenter]

87. In some cases the research assistantship is funded by grants from their home country, e.g China

It is also not uncommon for post-docs to be visiting researchers funded by their home institutions.

A lot are leaving because the opportunities are better than in the US. Countries that are building up their universities and research institutions offer labs, equipment, grants, etc. that are better than new researchers can get in the US with our cumbersome research funding bureaucracies.

[behold a pale horse]

90. And what, pray tell, is the point of having foreign students coming here in the first place?

Is our government subsidizing their education? Curious, because I see so many Taiwanese, Korean, and Indian students (also possible Palestinian/Middle Eastern) here at a private university I do my work at. I wonder if they come from wealthy families because the tuition is abuot 25K a year...

[kentuck]

17. I don't think I buy that...

America doesn't have the workers to do these jobs? I don't think it's a matter of education as much as it is a matter of profit.

[Vincardog]

28. Bingo. Ask any IT person with over 10 years experience

[Ms. Toad]

62. I've got two friends

one who left a teaching position at age 54 last spring, after a one month job search, for a 6 figure salary developing a cloud platform for a start-up. Her degree is not even close to IT. She took herself off the market immediately, but is still (close to a year later) getting head-hunter contacts representing some very big players from all over the country (with at least a 50% increase in salary). She is now responsible for filling a lot of the staffing positions, and has been challenged to find competent programmers to fill the slots.

The second web developer got raided from a non-profit I'm connected with - the non-profit couldn't match the prices on the open market because there are not enough programmers currently to fill the slots.

I do think we ought to be educating our own. I would be in a different field right now had we had the foresight to educate our own in math, in advance of the Sputnik generation retiring. But what these two friends have reported to me about the current IT market supports the assertion that there are not currently enough competent IT professionals to fill the jobs available.

[Vincardog]

66. Speaking as a main frame dinosaur with a BS and 20 years experience

when the small system "revolution' happened the PTB would not give me a chance to play on their new boxes.
I had proven myself on multiple platforms in multiple languages and utilities. They just did not want to pay me to use their "new"
systems at the time small systems people were getting just about $15/hr. I finally quit looking.
I occasionally hear about a main frame job but now I am too old (56) been out of the market for too long (years)
and really doubt I it is worth my time even trying to get back on that treadmill.

[Ms. Toad]

69. You're about the same age as my friend.

She has never been paid as a developer before, and has no related degree. What she does have is lots of participation in local (and to some extent national) open source user/developer groups, and she has developed a fluency in newer languages. Doing that built her a pretty decent reputation and skillset.

The market also seems to have changed significantly, starting about a year ago. My friend fully expected to take 6 - 9 months to find a job, and had more than one offer at the end of a month. The salary (signing bonus, and moving allowance) exceeded her wildest dreams. Others looking in that same time frame were reporting similar success - the second person I mentioned was lured away about 6 months ago.

So - depending on what you are doing now, and how much time you have on your hands, it might be worth it to move yourself into the small box/cloud arena and work and build up a local reputation.

[Snake Alchemist]

25. Be careful Mr. President. Now your talking about white-collar jobs. That's totally different. nt

[mainer]

26. I know of one tech company in MA paying big salaries to German engineers

because they say they can't find enough good American engineers. They're trying to hire German engineers away from Europe, and for that they have to pay big bucks. It doesn't sound like a dollar-saving proposition at all, but a desperate move to find the best people.

[joshcryer]

75. It's not in any way a "dollar saving proposition." We've let our education slip.

And we can't come up with high tech innovators so much anymore. Yes, we still produce a lot of the worlds innovation, but it's slowly going overseas as our education declines.

[TheKentuckian]

91. If you really believed that you'd be foaming at the mouth in response to doubling down

on the right wing vision of education that brought us to this low over the decades.

Far as I can tell, along with teachers and others dedicated to education if there is any effort to get out of the hole we are in, the method is the generally insane solution of digging out which results in a deeper and wider hole.

[uponit7771]

32. There's no stated increase in h-1 or f-1 visas from the white house, why post this?

[flexnor]

33. I said 'White House - more tech immigrants needed'

which is what 'stapling' green cards to degrees does

and every person who gets a green card 'stapled' for them is one less applicant for an H-1b visa (which those grads most certainly do, either immediatly or after their F1-OPT training portion expires), which frees them up for India

it is a secondary increase in H-1b visas, by taking a sector of applicants out of the H-1b visa applicant pool

[Life Long Dem]

61. I would think retaining them to stay here would have the opposite effect.

Since they are not going back home there would be no need to replace them with another H1-B. Only if you are then creating jobs would you be needing to bring in more foreigners.

[LynneSin]

35. How about more training for those who are unemployed so they can fill those slots

I mean I know alot of tech people laid off (and then replaced by cheaper foreign contractors).

Why not invest in training programs so those that have lost tech jobs can further their education so they can get back into the Tech Field.

[flexnor]

38. better yet, why not just hire people who are already qualified now

and not considering them 'disqualified' because they used software tool version 8.03 instead of version 8.04 as the industry is notorious for doing?

[girl gone mad]

36. Corporations want cheap labor.

This administration wants to give it to them.

[joshcryer]

76. Yes, H1B's lower bargaining rights, but H1B's also are exploited labor.

They have less negotiating power, whereas regular citizens have ample.

This is really a right wing talking point bashing H1Bs and immigration, which has a very hard cap and takes years of hard work for foreigners to get into these fields.

[RZM]

44. This is just the type of thing that could cost Obama big this year

I wouldn't say that this election is necessarily his to lose. But it's something close to that. He's got the high ground and the Mittster is no Ronald Reagan.

But this is just the type of thing that turns off swing voters, especially with this being a jobs/economy election. What possible benefit can there be here from an election standpoint? It can only turn people off - it can't possibly energize the base. Is he going to hold campaign rallies where he talks about stapling green cards to degrees and making iit easier for foreign-born spouses of foreign-born workers to get jobs? Is that going to elicit cheers from the rank and file?

All it does is irritate the unemployed and people who feel that the administration is not looking out for them. While the Republicans aren't either (generally speaking they are just as on board with this type of thing), backlash against this stuff will hurt the incumbent.

I highly suggest the administration thinks long and hard about this one.

[flexnor]

45. they all seem remarkably immune to backlash from abuse of guest workers

cant say i understand why, but i think it's true

[SunsetDreams]

47. It's a good thing this is a blog by someone else and not the President then

[RZM]

49. It's a blog on whitehouse.gov

Which specifically states that the president supports 'stapling'

The 'we' used in the text refers to these people, both of whom work for the president:

'Felicia Escobar is a Senior Policy Advisor in the White House Domestic Policy Council and Doug Rand is a Senior Policy Advisor in the White House Office of Science and Technology Policy'

[SunsetDreams]

51. It's still not policy it was a conversation

What's wrong with stapling a green card? I guess there is something I am missing here. Don't green card holders have to prove they are legal to live and work in the United States to any employer? Hence the "Are you a U.S. Citizen?" on all applications. If not, don't they need to provide proof? What better way to do it, other than stapling it to a Resume? The mere idea of stapling a green card, doesn't mean that they will get the job over other qualified applicants who have degrees.

Can you help me out RZM? I might be missing something here.

[hootinholler]

64. May I try?

There is a pool of visas available for guest workers. These are designated as h1b visas. There is a lottery each year for them. These visas are tied to a specific job for a specific employer who has to 'prove' there are no qualified citizens to fill the job. You might think of them as 'stapled' to an job application.

When a green card is 'stapled' to a diploma instead of a job, then those graduates would be removed from the pool competing for h1b visas. The visa they would have taken is now available effectively increasing the number of h1b visas available per capita.

The policy, if implemented would put additional pressure on senior software engineers or programmers because in my personal experience an h1b visa holder makes about 60% of what a citizen will work for especially if we're talking about someone with 20ish years experience. This has held IT salaries flat since about 2001, which is why every large software house loves the program. They have all testified at length about there aren't enough citizens to fill all the jobs, they simply omit that if they paid a little more they would be flooded.

What is wrong is that there are many like me who are making way less than their past peak salary when they are working. The job market is very unstable in addition to being weak. There is a lot of churn happening because of unsure budgets.

[RZM]

65. The poster below pretty much summed it up

When they pointed out that 'stapling' isn't just a paperwork procedure. It's essentially a 'free' green card granted to somebody solely because of what field they have been trained in at an American university.

Current law says 'x' H1B visas will be granted each year (the official number is 65,000. With all the exemptions it ends up at about 120,000). Automatic stapling would add 'y' to 'x'. Thus you're left with 'x+y' each year instead of just 'x.'

I just don't think that's the way to go. Rather than adding even more foreign labor to the pool, I think the ultimate goal should be lots of resources dedicated to training Americans. You can't do this overnight, but stuff like stapling (and the additional work visas for spouses) should come with a stipulation that it's only a stopgap measure until more Americans are properly trained. That goal of training more Americans should be the centerpiece here, IMO.

[flexnor]

52. Ron Paul is accountable for what he said in the Ron Paul Newsletter

and the President is responsible for WhiteHouse.gov

[SunsetDreams]

54. "Ron Paul is accountable for what HE SAID" I agree

The President is also responsible for what HE SAYS as well. Something is just not adding up here.

[flexnor]

55. in this case, I mis-spoke

I meant Ron Paul is responsible for what WAS said in his newsletter, not just what HE said personally (and was making the analogy to the President)

I saw it and was going to correct it, when i saw that you had already responded, so i'm clarifying the error here instead

[SunsetDreams]

56. In Ron Paul's case HE did say all those things

but thanks for the correction

But this is about green cards being attached to Resume/Applications, not Ron Paul.

[flexnor]

57. this sub-thread is about whether one is accountable for the content of their publication

democratic underground - implies a discussion room that the site owners may or may not agree with opionions presented

ron paul newsletter - implies it's ron paul's ideology, whether he writes it or not

whitehouse.gov - implies white house policy

[SunsetDreams]

58. This entire OP is about "stapling green cards" to application/resumes

that is what you highlighted which wasn't the entire paragraph.

The blog is about a conference call held with people all across the country.

"Yesterday, we joined a conference call with individuals from across the country to discuss issues impacting foreign students studying in our colleges and universities. We were joined by our colleagues Julie Rodriguez from the Office of Public Engagement and Luis Miranda from the Office of Communications. The conference call was the next step in our response to a petition submitted through We the People on Whitehouse.gov. We the People is a new way to petition the Obama Administration to take action on a range of important issues facing our country. We created We the People last year to help make your voices heard in our government. We know that some of the best ideas come from individuals directly impacted by federal policies."

[Rex]

63. No, stupid idea.

Hire here first.

[cthulu2016]

67. Fuck this.

[Badsam]

68. Let me get this straight, our companies go over seas for cheap labor

and now they are telling us we need to import labor for the jobs here.



When do we start hiring Americans?

But we need to start educating our own. we are falling so far behind the rest of the world

[gulliver]

71. Immigration is a great alternative to outsourcing, imo.

I'm in IT, and it seems to me like outsourcing changes everything. I'd much, much rather have foreign workers working and living in the U.S. than in their home countries. When they are here, they pay income and Social Security taxes. They buy houses. They buy goods and services. They build our GDP.

With a secure immigration path in this country, highly skilled tech workers will be able to demand higher pay, unlike those with L-1s and H-1Bs. We could eliminate those visas altogether. It might be more difficult to undermine the wages of citizens without those.

Business people are probably not wild about the effect of outsourcing either, by the way. Business processes outsource too. They go where the talent is, so maybe we should move the talent here.

America has this great thing going for it: It's America. We can take advantage of that.

[flexnor]

72. India's commerce minister called H-1b 'The Outsourcing Visa'

Tell that to India's commerce minister, he's under the impression that tech visas CAUSE outsourcing

Senator Durbin said the following on the senate floor in 2007

"According to this report, the Indian Government has been lobbying hard for the United States Government to increase the number of H-1B visas.

Kamal Nath, the Indian Commerce Minister, was very blunt when he said recently that the H-1B visa “has become the outsourcing visa.” He concluded: “If at one point you had X amount of outsourcing and now you have a much higher quantum of outsourcing, you need that many more visas.”

That is a very candid statement by this commerce minister in India. It should give us pause as we think about this program, what it was designed to do and what it is actually doing.

In other words, the Indian Government wants more H-1B visas so Indian companies can outsource more American jobs to India.
"

from http://blog.noslaves.com/senator-durbin-on-h-1b-abuse-outsourcing-and-trading-people-2/

The top 10 H-1B visa users in the U.S.
Fast-growing IT offshore outsourcing firms are major users
By Patrick Thibodeau, and Sharon Machlis
January 27, 2012 05:53 AM ET135 Comments.Computerworld - Offshore outsourcing companies continued to make up the majority of the top 10 H-1B visa users in 2011, according to new government data. These offshore firms have been adding employees by the thousands as their revenues increase.

from http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9223745/The_top_10_H_1B_visa_users_in_the_U.S.

Top H-1B visa approvals by company
Company Visa approvals
Cognizant 5715
Infosys 4042
Wipro 2817
Tata 1758
Larsen & Toubro 1608
Microsoft 1586
Accenture 1370
HCL America 1128
IBM 1063
Google 615

Source: U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Service. Computerworld combined multiple versions of a company's name, such as Infosys Tech Ltd and Infosys Technologies Limited, as well as some separate entities under the same corporate umbrella, such as IBM Corp. and IBM India Private Ltd.President Barack Obama highlighted it in

[gulliver]

73. Well that's kind of what I'm saying

H-1Bs are not (my understanding) on the citizenship path. L1s even more so. So the people who get them get experience in this country, build up their skills, and then go home. Then jobs get outsourced to them.

If the people currently getting H-1Bs and L-1s moved here, the jobs would stay here. And all the money they make would go into spending in the U.S. economy. So it is no wonder India likes H-1B.

Discussions with my Indian co-workers lead me to believe that wages are growing over there now to the point where outsourcing is not the fantastic deal it once was, btw.

[joshcryer]

78. This is a common misconception. H1B's are dual intent visas, you can apply for citizenship...

...while you have your H1B.

The real problem is the backlog in green card applications for H1B holders. They should get precedence and be incentives to apply.

[RB TexLa]

77. Extending the visa's of spouses has always been an issue. It's about time they fix that.

[limpyhobbler]

84. I agree with most of the above.

Some say we need more education/training to get US nationals into high tech jobs instead of importing workers. Others claim the industry is just trying to get salaries down so they bypass US nationals in hiring to go straight to the H1-Bs.

I agree with both sides. Seems obvious no? There are alot of unemployed IT people that shouldn't be, and they ought to be the first ones hired back.

Industry likes H1-Bs for the same reason they like temp workers. They are cheaper and they are more disposable. Alot of the H1-B visas are actually granted by 3rd party contractors and agencies, not by the destination company. The contracting agencies often charge obscene fees from the worker or take a huge cut of the worker's pay.

We ought to be training the next generation of high tech workers in American high schools today. Retraining ought to be free for adult US nationals. That way industry will not be able to use the excuse about not being being able to find US workers. Industry will do anything to try to keep wages low.

[flexnor]

91. discrimination, not retraining, is the issue

here's are key quotes from an immigration lawyer's seminar on how to certify to 'no qualified and interested US workers are available'

"And our goal is clearly, not to find a qualified and interested U.S. worker. And you know in a sense that sounds funny, but it's what we're trying to do here. We are complying with the law fully, but ah, our objective is to get this person a green card, and get through the labor certificat­ion process. So certainly we are not going to try to find a place [at which to advertise the job] where the applicants are the most numerous. We're going to try to find a place where we can comply with the law, and hoping, and likely, not to find qualified and interested worker applicants­. "

"If they [the American applicant] don't like the salary, don't like the work location, [we deem them to be] not interested­...Those are ways we can disqualify them, get them out of the market... "

"If it gets to the point where somebodys' looking like they're very qualified, we ask [the employer] to have the manager of that specific position step in and go over the qualificat­ions with them--if necessary schedule an interview, go through the whole process to find a legal basis to disqualify them for this position--­in most cases there doesn't seem to be a problem. "


notice they dont say 'looks like they are very qualified, but need retraining', no it's looks like they are very qualified PERIOD, and do not ask to negotiate on ANYTHING. This is about giving employers absolute power and eliminating negotiation in their demands for what they want. It is a totally anti-union attitude towards people who dont even have a union, they just want to make sure it stays that way - and Obama is helping them.

The poor soul that answers the ad described above puts their confidential background information, their time and preparation, perhaps travel expenses, and their confidence on the line for the opportunity to play against a deck that has been 100 percent stacked against them with a completely pre-determined outcome against them. It is the very definition of 'Prejudice' (arent we supposed to be against that?)

view the youtube below, and in your mind pretend that instead of "US worker", they were saying 'african american' - could they get away with it? dont I deserve the same rights?

[limpyhobbler]

93. Already watched it, it was posted upthread.

Industry clearly care about profits and that is all.

It's sad that the president made the remarks he did in the SOTU speech. At least he is being honest about his policy of screwing American workers, instead of saying one thing and doing another.

Industry is pretending they can't find US workers as an excuse to hire cheaper H1-B's. Of course they are, what else would they do? They will do anything that is legal, or even illegal if they can get away with it, to increase profits.

But also I think I should be able to go down to a government office Monday morning and say "Hi I'm here for the free training in database administration that will lead directly to a high paying job." In other words we ought expand high tech hiring for US nationals.

If you're talking about unionizing high tech workers, I support that 100%. As long as I can be in the union too. If it's open to people regardless of race, gender, ethnicity, etc., I'm all for it. For me part of that means expanding training opportunities so that US nationals from all gender/race/ethnic backgrounds are represented in the field.

[flexnor]

94. i wasnt talking about unionizing as much as I was pointing

out that all of this stuff is classic union busting behavior, and that the behavior used in union busting can be used against workers whether they are unionized or not

while i am for training and the right to unionize, i'm saying that i think the solution to tech problems is much simpler and direct than that

all we need to do is ask democrats (including our president (asking repulicans is a lost cause)) to quit supporting discrimination and union busting like behavior against our own workers

if that's not too much to ask

[flexnor]

86. Senator Dick Durbin speech on the Senate Floor: H-1b and Outsourcing in 2007

how is it that the 'other' democrat illinois Senator has such a differing view on the same subject?

http://blog.noslaves.com/senator-durbin-on-h-1b-abuse-outsourcing-and-trading-people-2

key exerpt

" recent expose in the International Herald Tribune disclosed that 8 of the top 10 H-1B visa applicants last year were outsourcing firms with major operations in one country–India. So in many cases it wasn’t the American high tech company using the H-1B visa that was given this opportunity but, rather, a firm, more likely in India than any other country, that was given the authority to use H-1B visas to send workers into the United States. The Herald Tribune concluded:

As Indian outsourcing companies have become the leading consumers of the [H-1B] visa, they have used to it further their primary mission, which is to gain the expertise necessary to take on critical tasks performed by companies in the United States and perform them in India at a fraction of the cost.

According to this report, the Indian Government has been lobbying hard for the United States Government to increase the number of H-1B visas.

Kamal Nath, the Indian Commerce Minister, was very blunt when he said recently that the H-1B visa “has become the outsourcing visa.” He concluded: “If at one point you had X amount of outsourcing and now you have a much higher quantum of outsourcing, you need that many more visas.”

That is a very candid statement by this commerce minister in India. It should give us pause as we think about this program, what it was designed to do and what it is actually doing.

In other words, the Indian Government wants more H-1B visas so Indian companies can outsource more American jobs to India."

[behold a pale horse]

89. Good! Now all those who sing the song of the immigrant will need to have the same compassion

for these people (who come from very desperate circumstances, also, despite their education) that they do not reserve for those Americans who work with their hands and are protesting their jobs being given to Mexicans and Central Americans! You know, the ones who live in poverty in their homelands and are just coming here to make a living?

The fix is in, folks. "They" (not one administration, by the way) want to turn us into a groveling and desperate place. Hey, we're already there, in many respects. It's just that some have been shielded from it so long they got bamboozled into seeing it as being "anti-immigrant."