General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsYeah, I know! The Super Bowl is 4+ hours of commercials, with brief interruptions for violence!
So why should you be watching the type of guys who bullied you in High School (and maybe college) pummel each other on a field of plastic grass? Author Robert Lipsyte has an article at Truth-Out: Four Reasons to Watch the Super Bowl: Joe Hill, Joe Pa, Tebow, Wee Brains
The four reasons, in brief:
Lipsyte goes on to discuss the damage done to young men who play football, something most media and educational authorities are afraid to mention. He suggests we "organize in your community against helmet-wearing tackle football -- at the very least until high-school age."
Yeah, he's right! Football is a brutal sport that causes more fatalities and head injuries than any other sport played by young people; but, good luck getting anyone to listen.
Edited to add: By the way, which team wears the white jerseys?
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)These jocks make nothing compared to the owners of the company.
These owners work them to half to death - quite literally, if you count all the injuries - and many of them don't make a lot of money (except the handful of superstar players). A lot of sports players come out of their career broken and unable to make money elsewhere - which is fine, unless some vampire has come along and spent (or helped you to spend) away all your money.
When it comes down to the paid jocks versus the owners I'm not going to suddenly decide to break with my tradition of siding with the workers. High paid or not, those jocks are workers making more value for their bosses than is paid out to themselves, and their bosses don't have to end their career with crippling injuries*. The head injuries and the ruining of people's bodies has to stop. But... what can we do about it? Head injuries in sports is like bullet wounds in combat. People get entertained by seeing someone get clobbered in a good hard tackle. They pay good money for that. Safer football means lost profits. Which is another reason why I never watch football.
* Of course the owner could sprain his/her wrist counting all that money.
radicalliberal
(907 posts)The online article to which I've posted a link below is relevant to what you've just said. It's very sad. Truly.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/jeff_pearlman/12/18/pear/
bayareamike
(602 posts)provis99
(13,062 posts)bayareamike
(602 posts)Playing football does not make one a bully. The link that you posted doesn't even suggest correlation between the two, let alone causation.
What it does state is that if bullying is normalized socially, the players are more likely to conform to it. Well, duh.
Even if all bullies were football players, not all football players would be bullies.
provis99
(13,062 posts)you are going on ignore.
bayareamike
(602 posts)cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)I'll just say this straight up -
That article is a steaming pile of shit.
Playing football DOES NOT make one a bully. Does. Not.
I played from Pee-Wee through high school. I've never bullied anyone in my entire life.
So there you have it.
Saving Hawaii
(441 posts)But having had some bad experiences through middle school and part of high school (I eventually figured out that being in a rock band made you cool), I don't think I ever got crap from a football player. Got treated very badly by a lot of people, but I can't think of a football player that didn't treat me with respect. Wasn't friends with any of them at the time (though my senior year I made a number of friends on the football team) but that crowd was one of handful that treated me well for a number of years.
Oh, I could've gone to an Ivy League school with a damn nice scholarship. But when I was about to graduate I said "Screw this. I don't want to spend another 4 years dealing with fucks who still do their best to ruin my day". I ended up getting a blue-collar job working around a lot of ex-high school athletes. And honestly? I don't regret that decision at all. I may be poorer for the choice, but at least I won't have to deal with assholes for the rest of my life.
TheWraith
(24,331 posts)Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)At least until you can offer some sort of verifiable demonstration of a causative relationship...
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)We often see things in such a way as to better validate our own anecdotal experiences. I've known nerds who bully, and jocks who are nice. I've seen the opposite also.
Also, I imagine we project the worst experience we've witneseed as a whole onto those things we dislike, and project the best experience as a whole onto those things we like. So I'd hazard that those who were beat up in high school by jocks project that experience onto all of them-- and carry that logical fallacy in their back-pocket, ready to whip out at a moment's notice. And those who are mocked and mentally bullied by nerds project that experience onto all of them, too.
As for me, I tend to take people on a person-by-person basis, regardless of their hobbies, their interests or what they drive. Seems to far work better than generalizing too...
But then again, what do I know? I'm certainly not clever enough to pretend every college football coach diddles little boys, that every jock has violent tendencies, or that every high school nerd will own an online money maker and retire by age twenty...
radicalliberal
(907 posts)I agree with you. I view people as individuals. At least I try to ...
radicalliberal
(907 posts)... by jocks are so bitter about it. I suspect that at most high schools in this country, nerds who bully are likely to be disciplined; but jocks who bully are likely to be given a pass. You call it preferential treatment. Are the majority of high-school football coaches morally opposed to any of their players bullying physically weaker, nonathletic students at their schools? I know some are because I've read about them. I honor them. But the majority? I have my doubts. High-school coaches are under intense pressure to have winning seasons. If they don't, they're likely to be fired -- no matter how much of a good influence, morally speaking and otherwise, they may have in the lives of the boys they coach. The fans might be opposed to a star player being benched because he's a bully or possibly guilty of some other infraction. Also, the coach (not to mention many of the players themselves) might be inclined to view nonathletic boys as wimps, sissies, or fags. (A childhood friend of mine who played football in high school recently told me that most of his teammates looked down on all the nonathletic guys at their school as supposedly being inferior.) A coach who viewed nonathletic boys with such disdain would not exactly be inclined to stick up for one who was being bullied by one or more of his players. It's a fact of life that injustice breeds resentment.
LongTomH
(8,636 posts)I think you'll find a lot of people on this board, especially the Geeks and Nerds, who have had the experience of being bullied by jocks. I remember my junior college days and a group of jocks who dedicated themselves to making my life miserable.
By the way, Geek culture may be cool these days; but Geeks are still outcasts in many schools.
chrisa
(4,524 posts)Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)But I did just watch parts of this one, since it was close.
I don't understand why women watch football (I'm female). Not to be biased against my own gender, but one reason I don't watch football is that I've never played it and can't relate to it. I CAN, OTOH, relate to baseball, tennis, and some other sports, because I've played those. Well, I guess that would also apply to men who have never played a friendly game of fb.
Response to LongTomH (Original post)
Post removed
Saving Hawaii
(441 posts)Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)radicalliberal
(907 posts)and I don't expect to ever become much of a presence here, as I'm an oddball who doesn't fit in anywhere when it comes to politics. (I should have chosen "MilitantModerate" for my username instead of the one under which I registered. Oh, well ... So I wasn't thinking clearly. Chronic bad sleep will do that to you. )
I've seen a number of your threads, besides this one, that deal with the issue of "jocks vs. nerds." I've been surprised by the passion and animosity on both sides. I sense a lot of hurt, too. The way I see it, there are two antagonistic groups, both of whom have been negatively stereotyped -- by each other and by other individuals and by society at large. What I've read is a bunch of guys yelling at each other, often talking past the other guy and not dealing with one particular relevant issue or another. No one's listening. Nothing is gained. There's a lot of heat, but not much light. Certainly no understanding. Perhaps there are legitimate grievances on both sides.
What to do? Well, I've thought a thread could be set up in which there could be a discussion (not a protracted argument) between those of you guys who played football in high school or college and those of you guys who hate football for some reason. But I'm afraid that (1) most members wouldn't take such an attempt at honest dialogue seriously, and (2) the discussion would quickly degenerate into another round of name-calling because people's egos would be at stake.
Here's another idea: Reach out to some guy on the other side by means of PMs and relate to the other guy as a real person instead of just words on a computer screen. I mean, you have a great opportunity here to get to know someone you might not otherwise get a chance to meet. Of course, you would need to be patient and not give up after only a single PM exchange. You could ask the other guy what his life has been like, what particular problems he has faced that would be germaine to this online spat. And why is that important? Because individuals have different experiences. You would become informed of the problems guys on the other side experience, regardless of which side you're talking about. But in order to get any positive results, you would have to be respectful and not assume that the other guy is a moron just because he has a point of view that is different from your own. Perhaps after an extensive PM exchange, two of you guys could agree to set up a topic for sharing with the rest of us what you've learned about guys on the other side.
if understanding could be achieved, then perhaps at least some of the bitterness felt by guys on both sides would be lessened. There possibly could even be a sort of emotional healing for guys on both sides who have been hurt in some way. Who knows, you might even find a new friend in a most unexpected place. That happened to me once before there even was an Internet.
Of course, human nature being what it is , it is more fun to rev up one's emotions (even those that are negative -- well, especially those that are negative, at least in some cases) and engage in a lot of yelling -- which sometimes involves clever insults. Yes, I admit I've laughed at such online altercations myself (at other websites' forums, of course). Oh, well ... I was being serious. Seriously.
LongTomH
(8,636 posts)"I've seen a number of your threads, besides this one, that deal with the issue of "jocks vs. nerds."" This was my first that dealt with this as an 'issue.' I have been bullied by jocks, actually at my old junior college; I still have the psychological scars, which I do not wish to reopen.
All I ask is that you just let this die as a topic. It isn't one I really care to debate or revisit.
radicalliberal
(907 posts)When I said "your threads," I was addressing all of the members who had responded to your OP. I was referring to all of the threads dealing with the issue of bullying by "jocks." There have been a number of these threads, all of whose OPs were written by members other than yourself. I also had in mind the number of posts submitted in threads whose themes were not limited exclusively to the subject of school athletes. I wasn't saying you had written the OPs of any of these other threads. In fact, as you've said, this is the first time I've seen you post about this issue.
I'm very sympathetic to victims of bullying. What attracted me to DU in the first place were all the anti-bullying threads. Even though I'm in my early sixties, I didn't start posting in online forums until three years ago. I was fascinated to see that those who were or had been bullied in school now had a forum in which to sound off. When I was a kid, no one cared about bullied kids, except maybe their parents. Some bullied kids haven't even gotten any support at home. As far as I know, no one spoke up for bullied kids when I was young.
My only purpose here in this thread was to try to facilitate some understanding between football fans and those guys who hate football because of negative experiences of the sort you experienced. I was sincere when I said both groups are negatively stereotyped. Even though I'm a guy, I've never been a sports fan myself. * gasp * I don't even know how the game of football is played. But I do know a few guys who played football in high school who are nice guys, just as I know of a few who were complete jerks. A former NFL player named Joe Ehrmann is now a minister and a volunteer high-school football coach. He's also a public speaker. He has publicly repudiated machismo and has repeatedly spoken out against bullying. He recently wrote a book about his style of coaching and his coaching philosophy entitled InSideOut Coaching, which I think you would appreciate.
I should have made it clear that by my use of the word "your," I meant all of the members of DU. I was speaking as an outsider. Again, I apologize to you. I wasn't taking sides against you (or anyone else who's willing to be reasonable, for that matter). I apologize for causing you any pain. I feel bad about this.
kctim
(3,575 posts)Life is unfair. Life is hard.
Blah blah blah
radicalliberal
(907 posts)... (say, for several years), as opposed to single incidents of minor stuff such as name-calling, do end up with emotional scars. Even psychologists who are opposed to "zero tolerance" policies against bullying in the schools will tell you that. Perhaps LongTomH should have directly addressed the issue of bullying without ridiculing the Super Bowl game, which many people enjoy -- although I can see how someone who had been the target of that kind of bullying wouldn't enjoy watching any football game. I thought liberals were supposed to be compassionate towards hurting people.
kctim
(3,575 posts)It is nothing more than a weak attempt to insert his personal opinions onto people he hates and a game he probably could never play that well. Hatred for people who believe differently, contempt for those who are better.
It's all so unfair.
As for your last sentence, I am not a liberal, I am a Democrat. I am compassionate to those who deserve compassion, I am not compassionate for the sake of emotions in order to make myself feel better.
radicalliberal
(907 posts)My concern is that there are problems with communicating by means of posts in an online forum. There's always the potential for misunderstanding. I think there's also the tendency to make assumptions about people that may or may not be true. I've been guilty of that failing myself.
My intention is not to have a debate, but to have a dialogue. I'd like to ask you some questions about LongTomH so I can find out exactly what is going on here. I'm not sure what the dynamics are. In terms of what he's said on previous occasions in other posts of his, does LongTomH have a record by which he can be judged? You say he hates people. Who are these people he supposedly hates?
There's a problem with "jock vs. nerd" controversies. Seems to me a lot of people on both sides fail to distinguish between the game (in other words, the action that takes place on the gridiron during a game) and the culture that may be associated with the game (in other words, attitudes manifested in the way others are treated off the playing field). I make a sharp distinction between the two because the culture is not inherently a part of the game, but is imposed from without by society and other forces. Someone who says he "hates" football may hate the culture, but not have anything against the game. If he fails to separate the game from the culture or transfers his anger to the game, then he's likely to cause others to misunderstand him. A criticism of the culture is not necessarily a put-down of the game. At least that's the way I see it.
You say he hates a game he probably could never play that well. I wouldn't be surprised if he never had any desire to play football in the first place. In fact, if I were a betting man, I'd bet on it. Therefore, he wouldn't have been jealous of those who could. And he's not the only guy who's never had an interest in sports (assuming that he does, in fact, fall into that category). Although I'm very physically active today and pump iron at a local health club, I never had any interest in sports when I was growing up and never wanted to play any game. To illustrate the point I'm trying to make, I've never had any desire to learn how to play a piano. Does that mean I'm jealous of concert pianists? Of course, not. Do I appreciate the dedication on the part of pianists, even though I have no desire to attend their concerts? Of course, I do.
Incidentally, one of the terrible flaws of the mandatory "old P.E." of my youth was that nonathletic boys who had no interest in sports were forced to participate in team games, often without any instruction as to how the games were played. Bullying often resulted from such situations. Such P.E. classes never provided any exercise programs for the nonathletic students, which is what they truly needed instead of being forced to "play" sports. Surely you can see why this would cause bitterness. Do appropriate Google searches on this site to access relevant posts, and you'll see what I mean.
You say LongTomH has "contempt for those who are better." Who are these people for whom he has contempt? Football players? Better in what way? Yes, there are people who look down on football players as "dumb jocks." I agree with you that that is wrong. One of my best friends played football at the university where he earned his degree in sociology. (He's been a sociology professor for decades.) He's been a very good friend, and I think the world of him.
But surely you must admit there's contempt on both sides. I dare say that nonathletic boys don't have the easiest time growing up, since masculinity is usually defined in terms of athletic prowess. (Joe Ehrmann, by the way, rejects that definition of masculinity. See my post above.) Just to give an example or two, a childhood friend of mine who played football in high school decades ago recently told me in an e-mail that most of his teammates had looked down on all the nonathletic guys at their school as being inferior. Two years ago I read a post by a teenager who was playing football at a parochial high school who said that many of his teammates referred to the nonathletic guys at their school as "fags." (By the way, he disagreed with them.) Again, the only point I'm making is that there's contempt on both sides.
Incidentally, I'm neither a Democrat nor a Republican; and I'm a guy without an ideology. (You may be thinking What the f--- is he doing here, then?! ) I'm not trying to make myself feel better by being compassionate. Because of low self-esteem, I'm making myself feel better by building up my physique.
Sorry if this post has been too long-winded. I dare say that none of my comments would deserve to be labeled as "anti-sports." Anyone who would accuse me of being "anti-sports" simply on the basis of comments I've made in this topic -- well, I can't say anything that would change his/her mind. I think my observations here are fair and accurate. Perhaps I've made a mountain out of a molehill; but I'm an oddball, anyway. So it goes ...
kctim
(3,575 posts)My response was to the guy in the link, Lipsyte, and his article. Not LongTomH. My bad if I was not clear on that.
Yes, I agree there is contempt from both sides and I would have the same thing to say if this guy was some 'jock' complaining.
It is my opinion though, that most of this could be settled if the 'jocks' hit the books harder and the 'geeks' hit the bullys nose harder.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)Started D-Line as a sophomore. Of course he's a wrestler, so can you please let me know what knee-jerk attribute you want to attach to that sport before I talk to him so I can let him know the full story. Gay bully, maybe?
Also, I think there are more head injuries in European football, but I could be wrong.
chrisa
(4,524 posts)You know, how they were a star quarterback, etc. Make it stop!
radicalliberal
(907 posts)But I liked this thread. What with its confusion, misunderstandings, and personal drama, I found it to be quite entertaining! ( :mrgreen: not available, unfortunately)
Oh, I guess I should have said hi first.