Why are surgeons paid more than brick layers?

[Snake Alchemist]

Surgeons make gobs of money. Drive nice cars. Live in large houses in nice neighborhoods. They generally work less than 5 days a week and the hours are very reasonable. We praise their knowledge of the human body, their hand eye coordination, and their dexterity. They take plenty of long, enjoyable vacations and retire very well and usually in good shape.

The bricklayer might be paid a middle class income, but he's likely paid a lot less. He drives an old pickup truck covered in dents that's in the shop fro time to time. He works 6 days a week for a minimum of 8 hours a day, often longer. We praise his knowledge of structure, his deft hand, and his eye for detail. He takes almost no vacations and is lucky if he can ever retire. His body ends up worn and broken and he lives in pain constantly.

Many surgeons couldn't dream of surviving the manual labor performed by a brick layer and yet we seem to put a lot less value on manual labor.

[TwilightGardener]

1. They don't all have reasonable hours. Unless you think 4 am phone calls from nurses to report labs

or a patient with a blood pressure that's tanking is "reasonable".

[Snake Alchemist]

2. Beats showing up at the jobsite at first light and working until darkness though. nt

[TwilightGardener]

15. No, it doesn't.

I've done highly-skilled medical work, and I've done manual labor. They will both exhaust you, and one pays more, but the stress of being responsible for someone's health and life takes a toll.

[Snake Alchemist]

25. One let's you retire at 55 though, and one has you drop dead at 55. nt

[TwilightGardener]

41. Not necessarily.

Your body might be worn out at 55 from doing physical labor, or you might be in better shape than someone who spends a lot of time sitting, driving, or standing in one place for a career. If you are happy in your job and have a sense of control or achievement, and can sleep well at night without worry, then that's different than someone who feels besieged, lacks control over a schedule or workload, needs to constantly keep up and refresh skills, has to deal with high-adrenaline situations, is anxious about work performance, etc. Any job can be stressful--or satisfying--it just depends on the person.

[Snake Alchemist]

47. I've found any job with that much UV exposure is not good for you longterm. nt

[mainer]

46. I know two urologists who were on disability by age 60

because the many hours of bending sideways to look through a scope has destroyed their necks, and they have chronic disc pain. So it does take a toll on the body.

[Snake Alchemist]

50. But I'm sure they have plenty saved up and it wasn't financially devastating.

The point is that blue-collar positions should be making more. Not that surgeons should be making less.

[FarLeftFist]

188. I'm a Union Bricklayer. I live in a NYC borough, I can answer any questions you have.

[Kurska]

114. Because one has a skillset that has been deemed more valuable by society.

Doctors are really the people you're getting up in arms over? They actually work pretty shitty hours and have to be in school for about 1/3rd of their life before they even get to do anything. Meanwhile a NBA player can do a single year of college and often earn 100 times what a doctor makes.

[Snake Alchemist]

121. Exact opposite.

My problem is not with the surgeon's high salary, but it's interesting that some see the exact opposite.

[Initech]

166. I have a good friend of mine who is a resident MD and sometimes works 24/7.

My brother is almost done with med school and is working at his hospital and he will work like 40 hour shifts with little to no break in between.

[KamaAina]

3. How deeply in debt is the bricklayer from all his years of bricklaying school?

[MattBaggins]

12. Pobably more than the doctors

who come to America from countries where they went to school for either nothing or the equivalent of a few thousand dollars.

[dana_b]

38. wow - what a generalization

I worked in a teaching hospital with residents where, granted, some came from other countries but the majority did all of their undergrad work here too.

[MattBaggins]

164. Not an over generalization

No where, in my post did I say "all" or "most".

You chose to add numbers that I never used.

[LanternWaste]

214. I imagine the relevance of your post would be if that number is unusually and consistently higher

I imagine the relevance of your post would be if that number is unusually and consistently higher than doctors not in debt after school. I imagine you will grace us with that relevant bit initially left out, yes?



(I imagine medical students with full scholarships also owe less after graduation, but as that number is so small as to be irrelevant also....)

[Posteritatis]

102. Stay classy. (nt)

[Snake Alchemist]

17. How many years at a surgeons salary does it take to pay off medical school bills?

Let's say 100K of debt, but you're making 200K a year. If you live a 50K lifestyle then it's less than one year.

[mainer]

21. It took me and my husband about 10 years.

and you don't start earning those high salaries until you're about 30.

[Snake Alchemist]

26. So I'd have my loans paid off by the time I was 32. nt

[mainer]

31. And if a doc starts paying off his loans at 30...

he'd have his loans paid off by 40. Because until about 30, most surgeons aren't making a ton of money.

[Snake Alchemist]

36. Guess they are living high on the hog at 30.

Never quite understood the loan argument. Live a simple lifestyle for a few years and the loans are gone in no time. Most doctors I know buy a BMW and big house immediately though.

[mainer]

39. Most doctors decide that at 30, it's now or never to have kids

and that pretty much cuts into your disposable income.

[Snake Alchemist]

43. Weird. I thought people were able to have kids after 30.

I waited well past 30 so that I could be financially sound.

[mainer]

59. If you're a woman, you don't want to have your first kid at 45.

Once past 34, the risk of chromosomal abnormalities goes up. That was my decision process, anyway.

[Snake Alchemist]

60. That's why I married 8 years my junior.

Paid for my own wedding, already had a house, had cars paid off. Did it by living an extremely frugal lifestyle through my 20's and early 30's though.

If I was a female married surgeon with a two income household my loans would be paid off VERY quickly even with a child.

[mainer]

62. Drat, that was my mistake! Not marrying a man who was 8 years younger!

Two doctors = twice the debt, by the way. And try working with two infants, which means... only one income until they get to preschool.

[Snake Alchemist]

64. It's amazing that people seem to be able to support 2 kids on less than 50K a year.

And somehow they get by. So if you're making 120K with two kids and you live a 50K lifestyle, how much does that leave left over?

[mainer]

66. while paying off hundreds of thousands of dollars in loans?

I guess that was the other mistake we made. Borrowing money so we could get the education to get those high-paying jobs.

[mainer]

67. both of us left medicine, by the way.

to work in higher paying but less stressful professions. I can tell you that medicine is not all you think it's cracked up to be.

[Snake Alchemist]

73. So tell me how much you were both making when you were 33?

And how much your student loans were.

[mainer]

81. Making: under $100,000. Student loans: close to $200,000.

But we were medical specialists, not surgeons, working for a managed care plan.

I should add that we are not spring chickens, so salaries have surely gone up since then.

[Snake Alchemist]

85. A tad different, but still a very good salary.

Especially if it is not recent. The point is not that surgeons should be making a dime less. It's that blue collar workers should be making a lot more.

[LanternWaste]

215. You appear to be rather confident when budgeting other people's money without knowing

You appear to be rather confident when budgeting other people's money without knowing full and relevant details of income vs. expenditure, and basing your premise on little more than guesses...

[Snake Alchemist]

216. Wasn't that the reason I asked the question?

[LanternWaste]

219. I made no inference as to why you asked a question.

I made no inference as to why you asked a question.

[Dokkie]

165. my sister was making $285k 1st year out of residency

and she wasn't even a surgeon just an OBG YN and she paid off her loan in 2yrs. I think a lot of MDs do make loads of money right after finishing their residency.

[Sgent]

174. An OB/GYN

is a surgeon

And 1st year out of residency would put her at 30 on average (assuming college grad at 22) -- and 33 if she subspecializes.

[mainer]

175. Yes, she was a surgeon

And she had huge malpractice premiums.

[Dokkie]

182. I was thinking more in the line

of general surgeon, neuro surgeon etc etc which shes not. I guess you could say she is a surgeon the way a dentist is a surgeon. I have no idea how much she paid for malpractice insurance she worked in some small town in Minnesota which may have a lower premium than say New York city.

[mainer]

206. You are dissing your sister

And she ought to be pissed at you.

Anyone who can perform a C-section or a hysterectomy is wielding a scalpel, and is a surgeon. And is frequently responsible not just for one life, but for two.

Do you think a general surgeon who does appendectomies is somehow worth more than your sister?

[w8liftinglady]

42. My neurosurgeon didn't get out of training until he was 32

He saved my life.He's saved a ton of lives.I'm a nurse,I've saved a ton of lives.I don't begrudge him a cent.

[Snake Alchemist]

45. I don't begrudge him. I just think you should be making a lot more money. nt

[Dragonfli]

148. A bricklayer's apprentice spends all day mixing mortar and hauling heavy block for

a couple hundred dollars a week and lives in desperate poverty with many injuries he dare not speak of (unless he wants to be labeled pussy and not called as a helper anymore.)

He must do this (like most highly skilled tradesmen) until he is a proficient helper that knows how to mix mortar with the body strength and stamina to do the trade work (very few tradesmen of any kind get to avoid a sun up to sun down day).
Next he gets to be a starting journeymen doing all the crappy work the experienced and expert guys don't want to or have to do at their level of expertise for maybe a hundred more dollars a week for about five years.

When I learned my second trade I went into several thousand dollars of debt to survive the time it took to make a near living wage.
That is all that is at the end of it no matter how much talent, skill, knowledge and hard work it takes to be a tradesman - a NEAR living wage.

I know very few brickies in their fifties with knees shoulders and hand joints that are better than a 70 year olds.

So many of you so clearly devalue the tradesmen that create your world for you so that you can live in comfort making 10 times as much without destroying your body to do so.

Most of the trade work done on non-government jobs that are not high rises is work done by contractors and tradesmen with no hope of getting in a union, we would love to as it approaches far more closely a living wage, what this means is many men have no union to support their safety or help them get benefits, some are having trouble these days even finding an on the books job and have to take a 1099 hit on an already inadequate income.

So many people here are so clueless about how much REAL hard work, skill, talent and work ethic is expected of craftsmen (and for so little!), even tho these are the people that build our beautiful cathedrals mansions and public treasures.

So much disconnect, no wonder the party has become so conservative.....

[KamaAina]

156. I am not devaluing tradespeople

merely pointing out that the OP is comparing apples to oranges.

[kctim]

4. Because more people can be brick layers than they can be surgeons.

You also have the simple fact that it takes more time and money to become a surgeon.
Oh, and we can't forget the silly little fact that one is dealing with human life and the other is not.

[Snake Alchemist]

19. You sure about that?

Brick laying is back breaking work. Most people aren't up to the physical task. Also if a chimney is built incorrectly it can definitely be a matter of life and death.

[11 Bravo]

70. Would you rather have a surgeon build your fireplace, or a bricklayer perform your surgery?

[mainer]

84. I know doctor who enjoys building stone walls

and does it overseas as part of a charity building teams. So yes, a surgeon could probably build my fireplace.

[JoePhilly]

123. You continue to make little sense.

In today's construction, the guys building the chimney are following a very simple pattern.

The amount of training required is actually very little, especially when compared with what a surgeon needs to learn.

And again ... when was the last time you needed to have an EMERGENCY CHIMNEY built????

[Snake Alchemist]

126. It's minimization like that which is really disturbing. nt

[JoePhilly]

136. I wish we could "minimize" most surgery to the same level.

And again, you respond, but actually say nothing.

Most construction is becoming a process. I did not invent that, its simply a FACT.

Throughout human history, "crafts" have become "automated".

The "parts" become "standardized" ... and their combination becomes as "process".

Your car was built this way.

Your HOUSE is built this way ... the windows are all STANDARD ... doors are STANDARD ... the shape and size of the fridge, dishwasher, so on ... STANDARD.

Surgery is not (yet) standard. The "parts" of a human, are not "standard" ... they vary, and you can't simply replace them if they break down.

[Snake Alchemist]

139. Your right. Those "little" people should learn a new skill if they want more money.

Sad.

[Dragonfli]

154. I can see that you know very little about trades or todays construction, or perhaps you are a

thirty year veteran of the trades that also happens to be self loathing. For whatever the reason.
YOU DON"T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT yet talk as if you are the expert in what I have done for 35 years.

Amusing actually.

[Dragonfli]

153. Most that try it lack either the talent (it takes the talent of an artist you know) or the physical

stamina. You have not spent much time trying to learn a skilled trade have you? You appear to think a monkey could do it. Actually it requires a great deal of knowledge as well as talent (not a common quality), in a medium that is quite heavy and sharp.

I myself am a cabinet maker and I bet you lack the talent and knowledge required to build a gothic fireplace from nothing but rough kiln dried hardwood a shaper and a saw. I can do that (I love pointed architecture as well so would have a ball with the design).

I spent ten years on rough and finish carpentry at Victorian restoration companies and then switched trades to cabinet maker for another 5 so that I could build furniture, mantels and high end custom built-ins.

Before that as a youth I spent 10 years learning the painting and plastering trades (drywall as well, it is sort of the kindergarten of plastering) These trades also require talent and it is hard to find anyone talented enough to train.

I believe the surgeons trade is a skilled trade requiring talent and a great deal of knowledge if one wishes to be good at it, but an artist so talented that he can build a cathedral is harder to find than a surgeon. Talent is not the dime a dozen resource you think it is nor are the trades a place for idiots to learn to push dirt back and forth as you also appear to believe.

[kctim]

218. So how many people

need an "artist" to create a foo-foo fireplace or cabinet for them VS. needing a surgeon for their health? Sorry, but there is a much greater demand for surgeons than there is for "artists."

But, you are partially correct on the skilled trade thing. No, I have not studied anything like that in particular, but guess what, I can and have made a nice looking cabinet. I have finished basements, trim, columns, doors, walls and wiring. All up to code and looking good enough to resell at a profit or, as is the case now, to enjoy myself.
Doesn't mean I think any monkey could do it or that I am even in same league as those who dedicate their lives to it. It just means that most people can do a good job at it or even go without a new cabinet, but they cannot do a good enough job or go without when it comes to their health.

[Dragonfli]

229. So basically your argument is people will pay the doctors exorbitantly because of a death threat?

The mob has a similar business model. "Pay 500 grand or I won't do the hour surgery thing and the hostage gets it seee? Don't get funny, I have a scalpel and know how NOT to use it to save your life". I guess that WOULD explain the success.

I am sure Kittengers is dying to hire a great cabinet maker such as yourself to put to work building heirloom furniture (one job I had by the way), You DIY "tool guys" are so cute and only dangerous to your own families (usually), do your family a favor and don't prove how easy it is to move a support wall, it is not as important as you think to disparage skilled workers, they are only trained monkeys after all right? No need to put your family in danger just to prove how stupid we all are.

[kctim]

233. Aw

Don't get upset with me just because surgeons are more needed and in greater demand. Sheesh.

And you miss the point with your snide little DIY remark. I don't do things to save a buck, nor do I put my family in any danger. The simple fact is that I do them because I don't need or want heirloom furniture, nor do I need somebody else to make a wall or cabinet.
What I do need though, is someone who knows health.

[SidDithers]

5. You can have the bricklayer perform your next surgery...

I'll stick with the surgeon.

Sid

[pintobean]

20. Nurse, hand me that trowel

this artery needs more mortar.

[MichaelMcGuire]

44. That works both ways

You can have the surgeon build you next home.

[JoePhilly]

125. When was the last time you needed an EMERGENCY home built??

Big difference.

[MichaelMcGuire]

152. LOL true nt

[Dragonfli]

157. Emergency repairs are quite common, but being the expert you are, you know all about that.

In the winter We used to average about 3 or 4 emergency chimney repairs, it is a reality of winter and the cheapness of folks like you that think it is a job like "floor sweep" to be a tradesman.

In winter water freezes, when water freezes it expands, when you add the idiot that hasn't maintained the tuck pointing on his chimney because "that guy charges to much for such trivial work" the combination leads to chimney lean, bricks falling and a call by one of your neighbors to the city to make you take seriouslty the emergency repair work that must be done before someone is brained by one of your errant bricks that you feel anyone can repair. If that is true try doing it yourself sometime, after you fall off your snow covered roof and you figure out that frozen mortar is not "set" mortar and your repair failed because you lack the chemical knowledge to mix mortar in freezing weather.

Also, there are hurricanes, floods, trees falling on/into houses and even cars that crash through the front door. Those all require mythical emergency building repair.


Thank Goddess there is an expert here to tell me all those jobs I imagined actually happened in my 35 year career never happened at all!

[JoePhilly]

163. You still have it backwards.

The Surgeon is fixing a system that he did not build ... you are complaining about "professionals" who did a "bad job" building the thing in the first place.

And then, your reference to hurricanes etc is similarly irrelevant. Here in NC some years back, a large hurricane came through the Raleigh area, where I live. The guys who came AFTER the trees fell did not perform SURGERY to PREVENT the trees from falling. They were already down.

I'm also curious as to why you put the word "floor sweep" in quotes, given that I did not use that term.

Ad for your 35 year career, fantastic, I hope you love that line of work, everyone should do something they love to do ... but I wonder, how many lives did you actually save when compared to a surgeon?

The OP seems to be suggesting that the surgeon and the brick layer should make the same money, you agree?

[Dragonfli]

170. No I compared it to a homeowner that failed to maintain his home assume the bricks were perfect when

when originally laid. then

Try reading again, this time slowly, I go too fast for some at times, but this is the worst I have seen yet of falure to read a post but responding to it.

Read it again
slowly.
Joint's over time need tuck pointing, it happens to all brick jobs and all mortar but I mistakenly thought you knew SOMETHING about the subject, I will not make that mistake again, second, because the cheap homeowner thinks the bricklayer is payed too much he never has maintenance done "that trained monkey should be happy with min wage!".

When joints have aged to the point where mortar is degraded (even if laid by a master) it must be dug out to the point where it is not rotted, much like a tooth before a filling is applied, then you remortar the joint using a technique called "tuck pointing", got it now?

Well, it is common for cheap homeowners to not maintain their bricks, it only comes up once a generation or so but still it needs to be checked occasionally. Winter does freeze the water that has seeped into the joints that should have been pointed, it expands and chimneys fall apart, usually in winter when it is hard to fix and often the neighbors notice it first when a brick falls and cracks his/her sidewalk.

3 or 4 times a year, emergency work like clockwork and yet you say it doesn't happen and you are an expert but never heard of tuck pointing?

You just do not know what you are talking about and it is frustrating as hell!!!!

[JoePhilly]

186. What is "frustrating" is you claiming I said things that I did not say.

I never said brick layers are "paid too much".

I never said a "trained monkey" could do the job.

I never said anything about how mortar degrades over time, or how it needs to be maintained as a result.

And I never said that significant work does not need to be done periodically, particularly due to the effects of weather conditions. You then talk about "tuck pointing", I never mentioned it ... but yes, I familiar with it ... btw can you tell me which surgical procedure it is most similar too??? You gave an ok description of it in 2 sentences ... no text book required. Maybe that should give you a hint. Now describe the removal of a gall-bladder ....

Regardless .... you seem to have a very strong need to claim that I said things that I did not say ... not really sure why that is.

The issue posed by the OP is whether the surgeon and the brick layer should be paid more similarly.

Let's stop putting words in each others' mouth ... so you tell me ... should these two positions be paid equally? Should one be paid more?

Well?

[sorefeet]

236. what about

the power plants. I am or was an industrial steel painter/ sandblaster. Now I'm a worn out 59 year old man. Poisoned by 30 years of toxic chemicals and doing things the human body wasn't designed to do. Power plants run on painters and BRICKIES. When the huge furnace has to be shut down because the bricks need replaced time is money so they call in the best. Labors come in and tear out the old brick, painters sandblast and clean the steel and the brickies come in and put up a puzzle of brick walls. Each and every job is different. Without this being done the power plant cannot operate and millions of people would be without electricity. And in the materialistic country of America, that would be a catastrophe.

Without nurses, anethiesiologist and other aides a surgeon is pretty much just a title.

[Dragonfli]

173. Pay should be tied to years of training combined with a valuation of skill/talent displayed

In all trades equally, including the medical trades, I spent 15 years on more than one trade and was considered highly skilled among my peers in more than one trade (in terms you would understand it would be like a surgeon certified in more than one specialty). A doctor that spent an equal amount of time and displayed an equal amount of skill at his profession should make the same as I did (with the caveat that LOWERING the wages of surgeons WOULD NOT be the direction I would take to equalize compensation)

[Fastcars]

223. Only problem....

When it came time to pay more for a chimney repair than open heart surgery most people would opt out of the chimney work. Even if the bricklayer has a longer, harder job that requires a great deal of skill.

[Dragonfli]

226. My sister is opting out of open heart surgery right now, she can't get the funding

Last edited Tue Feb 7, 2012, 04:19 PM - Edit history (1)

It is too bad that her life will be so much shorter because our society can't work out a system where a woman like her that worked hard her whole life can afford a chimney repair or life saving surgery, as it stands neither she nor I can afford either.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

199. Emergency repairs aren't performed by unskilled workers, and hence are expensive.

Skilled builders are well paid.

[Dragonfli]

203. The whole point of this OP is that they are not "well paid". Not all of these skilled tradespeople

Have an opportunity to get union work, this is not by choice, we get a taste on the rare Gov't prevailing wage job like some schools I have worked on (prevailing rate must be paid, that's about double the normal rate) and most of us wish unions would flourish beyond the extremely large builds and Government work. There are only so many schools that get built or renovated and very little of the work available to do is for union scale, they are double the highest next bid so when union shops are not required, none get hired.
Even then, union tradesmen don't get perhaps as much as you think, they make about as much as cops and firemen.

Mostly the contractors that flourish in residential are non-union as union contractors cost more than most home owners (or developers of new build neighborhoods) appear to be willing to pay -the devaluation of these skilled workers is strong in the 'burbs'.

They become skilled workers by going through 3 stages of learning:
Helper, gets paid a couple hundred a week to do work that would make most posters here quit at lunch and seek the nearest chiropractor then, if you get strong enough and learn what all the tools and material are (you are taught as you do the back breaking labor) and appear to have some aptitude after about two seasons they may let you learn as a

Journeyman where you make about a hundred dollars more a week and break your back doing all the shit jobs that the more trained guys don't have to do anymore. the entire time your skill and talent are constantly tested and evaluated while they shout at you to go faster.

If you turn out to be talented, skilled, and strong enough to haul materials and tools you need for days that last much longer than eight hours about six days a week and you have learned about 5 years of trade specific information you are now a tradesman.

Only 1 in 5 of those that try are good enough or work hard enough to get through the first 7 years or so, they go on to work in offices or in food service.

The guys that make it then have the honor to fix and build everything for us and only get close to a living wage JUST CLOSE, seldom are retirement plans offered (except for those lucky enough to have a union gig otherwise save or hope for a miracle) and are broken physically in their 50's. Their joints usually are like those of a 75 year old at about the age of 50, that many years of that much weight and wear tears a body up.


They are not well paid that is what he is saying. Bricklayer or cabinet maker is not a trade you learn in a one week seminar. It takes as long as college, get it now? All these guys are trained this way and the "unskilled workers" are few on a crew and are being taught why they haul tons (literally) of material around site. They are all skilled builders and they are not well paid.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

211. I'm afraid I think that most of the facts you cite are inaccurate

which, if so, would obviously mean that your conclusions are too.

It is certainly the case that here in the UK skilled manual workers can earn quite a lot of money per hour, and can often set their own hours. I would be very surprised if things were massively different in the US, but I can't rule out it being possible.

[Dragonfli]

224. I have worked in three trades for all my life, This is not the UK (35 year career)

Some can earn good money, working union (but it is not HUGE money).
Those that work for themselves can do better if they can keep the work coming in but often you are bidding against dozens of others and so there is a competitive limit to it that can not be overcome. When your bid is on you do well, but if there is more work than appears or you had to low bid to get work for your guys that month. then you lose money.

It sounds like they value skilled labor in your country, cheers to that and hoping it spreads across the pond.

[AngryAmish]

6. Surgeons are paid more because there are fewer of them

There are higher barriers to entry to be a surgeon. 4 years college, 4 years medical school, pass medical boards, year internship then you start to train as a surgeon. Two year residency then fellowships year or two surgical residences, then maybe more training as a sub-specialist. About one percent of all people have the brains to become surgeons then you have to have the drive to work all those years to become one. If there is a surgeon who works less than fifty hours a week I have not met one (and I know dozens of doctors).

I have bricklayers and masons in the family. They do fine work but most are amiable drunks.

[Snake Alchemist]

23. I have found that the highest barrier to being a surgeon is family money. nt

[mainer]

35. Nope. Loans all the way for us.

Wish family money WAS involved.

[Snake Alchemist]

40. Generally I find very few doctors that do not come from good families though.

Usually don't have to work two jobs in undergrad just to eat.

[mainer]

49. well, I'm the daughter of a cook

and he was the only breadwinner.

I consider that a GOOD family.

[MineralMan]

53. What is a good family? What does that even mean?

My doctor in California came from a good family. His father was a gardener and sometimes orange picker. His mother worked cleaning floors. He put himself through medical school, with what help his parents could provide. Now, that's what I call a good family. They supported him in his education and encouraged him to aim very high. His name is Alfredo Nunez.

My current primary care physician is from Pakistan. He's very good. I don't know about his family, though, but they still live in Pakistan.

What kind of "good" family were you thinking of?

[Snake Alchemist]

57. I've found that those "American Dream" yarns to not be the norm though. nt

[MineralMan]

58. Is that what you've found?

You know a lot of doctors, do you? You've asked them about their family background, have you?

[Snake Alchemist]

61. Actually I do.

One is actually the grandson of the guy who invented the sno-cone machine. His 4 kids each get 20K a year for Christmas that goes in a trust.

[mainer]

65. In my medical school, there were quite a few from blue-collar families

but then, my school had a high ratio of female and minority students. I never met any manufacturing heirs in medical school. I suspect, if you're super wealthy, a demanding field like medicine is not an attractive profession. The super wealthy kids do something like modeling or party planning or go into the arts.

[Yo_Mama]

191. Huh?

I don't think so, thinking of the doctors I know. And a lot of the surgeons are immigrants.

I think you are off in some fantasy place. Go to a hospital sometime and look at the faces.

Most doctors start out with a ton of debt, but surgeons have an even longer time in training and start out with way more debt. Their lives don't really start until their 30s and by then they have racked up a ton of debt.

You cannot directly compare the pay of bricklayers and surgeons because the upfront investment cost (training and years of being very poorly paid while you train), plus deferred earnings, make the two profession incomparable.

Yes, both are hard work. If you compared the expected lifetime return of a lot of blue collar professions you'd be surprised at how little more the "prestigious" profession makes.

You know what? Some doctors, especially those in the high-suit professions in areas with low insurance ratios who do a lot of charity/gov insurance work are being forced to drop their malpractice insurance and strip themselves of assets (they usually make over absolutely everything to the wife) to continue doing their work. I've never met a bricklayer who had to do that.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5234637/ns/health-health_care/t/doctors-going-without-malpractice-insurance/#.TzCVbYHpiSo

NOTHING comparable about the two professions really, except that they are both important to society and they both are hard work. Being a surgeon is almost always harder work than being a bricklayer, and a bricklayer used to have more security, more off hours and more leisure. Now with demand so low in the construction professions, and with cheaper construction methods winning out, bricklayers just don't get as much work.

[lumberjack_jeff]

71. The AMA is a union which controls the supply of doctors.

They tell colleges how many doctors they will produce annually, with an eye toward protecting their own income.

If bricklayers had the same level of control over who could touch bricks, you'd see their salaries (and the education required) approach infinity too.

[hunter]

90. The AMA is nothing but a shill for the pharmaceutical companies anymore.

They are a dying institution of old farts. They are most certainly not a "union," in fact their anti-union stance is the disease that is killing them. Many younger doctors avoid them since so many of them are on salary now working for the same large institutions that mistreat unionized nurses and other medical staff.

It's a new world out there and the corporations are abusing everyone, doctors included.

The supply of doctors is limited because the training is damned expensive, the work is insanely difficult, and your insurance company would pay $8-an-hour medical assistants to do brain surgery if they could get away with it.

Most doctors tell their kids not to go into medicine. Primary care physicians especially are the next "overpaid" class (just like teachers and nurses) that the big corporations are gunning for. Every fat ass MBA making $500,000 or more, guys who flunked "science for dummies" college courses, guys who couldn't be trusted to give their own kid cold medicine, these evil clowns think they could be doctors, just like they think they could be nurses, or teachers, or janitors.

Or even bricklayers...

[Snake Alchemist]

124. One of my best friends is a primacy care physician.

His pay is pathetic when compared to the specialists he refers to at times. It's sad.

[Jim Lane]

200. Exactly! It's barriers to entry.

If bricklayers were suddenly paid as well as surgeons are now, then huge numbers of people would seek to get into bricklaying. Yes, you need physical stamina, but the training is so much cheaper and faster that there would still be a huge oversupply of bricklayers.

The same high compensation offered to surgeons doesn't lead to a horde of would-be surgeons flooding the field, because of barriers to entry. There's a limited number of places in medical school, and even those places can be filled only by someone who passes the entrance exam and is willing to undertake a colossal investment of time and money to become a surgeon.

Before you get upset about overpaid surgeons, consider pro athletes, many of whom are far more grossly overpaid. That's just the market at work.

The serious problem is with top business executives and Wall Street types who effectively set their own salaries and are thus insulated from the market.

[MineralMan]

7. Part of it is the responsibility for a human life.

If the bricklayer does a sloppy job, the wall will probably still stand, even if it looks funky. If the surgeon does a sloppy job, the patient may die. Beyond that, I taught myself to lay bricks, and can do a pretty darned good job of it. I'm good with concrete block masonry, too, and can work with river stones, as well. All self-taught, with the help of a couple of books. I faced the entire front of my house in California with river rocks, and it came out great. I also built a concrete block fence around the back yard, and a large barbeque center out of used bricks.

I could not teach my self surgery and would not trust a self-taught surgeon or any surgeon who was not board-certified. You could trust me to build a masonry project for you, even though that is not my specialty. I wouldn't let me perform surgery on you, if I were you.

[AngryAmish]

18. OOOh, look at you too high and mighty to use a self-taught surgeon

May we touch the hem of your garment, Mr. King fancy-pants?

[MineralMan]

22. I apologize profusely to all self-taught surgeons.

They deserve to earn a living, too.

[JNelson6563]

107. lolz

[JoePhilly]

129. I worked in construction when I was growing up ... my dad taught me ...

his father had taught him. And my earliest jobs were all manual construction work. And I learned from other guys who worked for my father.

Carpentry, plumbing, residential electric (not industrial), roofing, remodeling, tile work, "finish" work, deck construction, insulation, landscaping, and masonry and even some iron work (building frames, and even custom truck beds).

And so when I think of these skills, I think I'm where you are ... you can learn much of this from others ... and you can even self-teach.

The key difference is what happens if you make a mistake. Sure, some construction projects, if done wrong might hurt some one ... but that's not the majority. Usually, if you make a mistake in these, its not a big deal, and you can fix it.

Not so in Surgery. EVERY surgery is a potential life or death situation.

[MineralMan]

172. Thanks. I learned a lot of things from my father, too.

He was an auto mechanic, but he would take on almost any job when it would save him money. What he taught me was that if you stopped by the library, you could find information on how to do almost anything. My first experience with masonry came when he decided to build a concrete block fence around the back yard. The first eight feet of it were a little irregular, with some uneven mortar lines and every so slightly misaligned blocks. After that, though, the rest of the fence looked like a pro had built it. My father started building the fence behind the garage, knowing that the first parts wouldn't look as good as the rest.

At age 87, he's still doing things. This weekend, he built some new brackets to adapt an automotive alternator to his skiploader, which he uses a lot. Tough old fart, he is.

[JoePhilly]

195. Wow.

Way back when, I helped remove the back of a pick up truck and replace it with a flat bed deck, above which we built a removable frame that had a pulley system designed (initially) for lifting and positioning grave stones.

We used the same device for helping to build walls that included large stones and blocks as part of an even larger design.

My father passed some years back ... one of is specialties was 'finish work". He knew how to do all of the "heavy lifting"... I can't even count how much framing, and dry wall we did ... but what he really loved was the "finish work".

He loved to take a piece of wood and 'curve it'. Or, take a small space and turn it into a functional pantry.

We built decks, did roof repair (once on our own Philly row home, the rain was coming into the house), concrete steps, and so on ... we even rebuilt the porch on our row home ... most of it was brick work ... that was over 20 years ago ... and its still there.

He and I also build furniture. I'm sitting at a kitchen table that he and I built 30+ years ago ... and I also have a coffee table, and a chess table, and 2 end tables that we built.

[Ron Green]

8. You ought to see my patio.

I never paid a surgeon as much as I paid my bricklayer.

[mainer]

9. surgeons do not work fewer than 5 days a week

where are you getting this from? Coming from a medical family, I know that doctors often make rounds 7 days a week on their hospitalized patients, are called at all hours of the night, and have to drive in for emergencies. I haven't heard of any bricklaying emergencies requiring a 1 AM trip to the building site.

[JoePhilly]

130. +1

[tawadi]

10. Maybe because med school cost more than masonry training. eom

Last edited Mon Feb 6, 2012, 07:44 PM - Edit history (1)

[cthulu2016]

11. This is not a good example to make the point

I think we grossly undervalue manual labor but it's just not a good example.

A much smaller percentage of the population can master surgery than masonry. The education costs (money and years) for a doctor are immense. Being a surgeon isn't really cushy, compared to most white collar jobs. And so on.

You might as well ask why a brick-layer makes so much more than the person who hauls the bricks and than apply that answer to the surgeon.

I prefer asking why cleaning toilets pays so much less than lobbying congress.

[Snake Alchemist]

24. Perhaps you are right. I just think the spread is ridiculous. nt

[mainer]

13. Oh, wait. Did you leave out the sarcasm thingy?

Just pushing our buttons, I see!

[madrchsod]

14. doctors average 105.00 per hour

http://www.healthcaresalaryonline.com/surgeon-salary.html

this figure does not include the first 4 years of college

http://gradschool.about.com/od/medicalschool/f/MedSchoolCost.htm


i do not think that bricklayer have that cost of education. the average pay of a union bricklayer is around 50-60 depending on the region of the country.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

16. not sure what you're after, but I'll answer in straightforward fashion

Surgeons make more than bricklayers because they have to be trained for a long time with a highly specialized skillset. More people are able to learn bricklaying skills in a shorter amount of time. And this isn't a slam on bricklayers. Substitute "network engineer" (my trade) in place of "bricklayer", and the answers still come out the same.

[Snake Alchemist]

30. I'm just pondering how blue collar labor is minimized. nt

[Dragonfli]

158. With the ease of a right wink think tank ... apparently... sadly....on a Democratic site

[MicaelS]

232. I spend time on various computer hardware forums and tech websites

And the number of college educated people with IT degrees, including advanced IT degrees, on these websites who are either Conservative Or Libertarian is as high as 75%. They strongly support Ron Paul. They have a passionate hatred for Unions.

They believe anyone who has a blue collar job and "just turns a wrench" is ignorant, stupid, and simply too lazy to go to college, and get a better job. Thus the blue collar person deserves their lot in life.

You should have seen the comments when GM and Chrysler might be seen to go out of business.

There is simply a lot of disdain these days for anyone who does not have a college education and works with their hands.

That's how.

[Recovered Repug]

27. I've known some do-it-yourself types who could lay bricks.

I've never met a do-it-yourself surgeon - that would be interesting though.

[MineralMan]

28. Thinking again, you might want a bricklayer to do

your surgery if you were a golem. Not being a golem, though, I think I'll sick with a surgeon.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

29. Scarcity. There are a lot more people capable of laying bricks than performing surgery.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

72. Part of that is control of the supply bu the US Medical establishment

[cthulu2016]

32. “Dammit Jim, I’m a doctor not a bricklayer!”

Can't believe no one has said that yet

(Star Trek reference)

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/dammit-jim-im-a-doctor-not-a-x

[Warren DeMontague]

33. because most people would rather have a broken wall than be dead.

not everyone, to be sure.

[pintobean]

34. I'm sure there are

Walmart greeters wondering the same about bricklayers.

Also, I don't know that many bricklayers are getting that kind of hours in this economy. I think that most would be elated to be getting anywhere near 40 hour weeks.

[Snake Alchemist]

37. Good point about the hours. nt

[dana_b]

48. I agree that brick layers should be better compensated BUT

regarding surgeons, I don't think you understand. I worked in a teaching hospital and the residents who wanted to be surgeons are no different from other MD disciplines. It is years of undergrad work and the MDs would have years of being a resident. They worked 36 hrs., had 24 off and came back for another 36 over and over for years. During that time they made next to nothing because they were still learning. When they finally got to the place where they were making some money, it was nothing near what you are talking about. Seriously, it does take a lot more training and years of working for little to nothing to get where those big shot surgeons that you are talking about are.

[Snake Alchemist]

51. When you say "making some money" what kind of figures are we talking about?

I was not saying that surgeons should be paid less. Just that blue-collar workers should be paid more.

[mainer]

56. Bricklayers are paid by contractors and homeowners, aren't they?

and what the market bears has a lot to do with it. If there are 100 bricklayers competing for one homeowner's patio job, then the low bid is probably going to get the job.

[Snake Alchemist]

63. Sounds like a race to the bottom to me. nt

[mainer]

69. So pay your bricklayer more.

Since you -- and every other homeowner and contractor -- is actually responsible for their pay.

[Dragonfli]

159. You are confusing bricklayers with gardeners

Brick layers build structures, patio block layers learn how to grade and use sand, blocks, pebbles and other affectations to help display grounds work. Many are more adept at horticulture than laying blocks on the ground.

It is very hard actually to find a good bricky, we spent three years to find one good enough to work on our cathedral restoration project, it would have been far easier to find a surgeon but he would have lacked the skill and knowledge to do the radius brickwork we had to have done on a domed structure.

[Ms. Toad]

52. Got some facts wrong there.

Unfortunately, our family has had way too much contact with surgeons. I can assure you that they do not generally work fewer than 5 days a week, with reasonable hours.

As an example - I've had three surgeries in the past two years (same surgeon). We communicate primarily be e-mail - enough that I know his work pattern. On office days (M, W, F), he is in his office answering e-mail by 7 AM, and finishes between 7 PM and 9 PM. On surgery days (T, Th), same start time but often an earlier stop time (~5 PM).

He has never taken longer than 24 hours to respond to me on a medical issue - including weekends - unless he has been out of the country (then, I still get a response - but perhaps 36 hours later).

My daughter (with serious liver and GI conditions) was recently out of the country and experienced a potential medical crisis. She e-mailed her three docs (two of whom are surgeons) on a Sunday morning around 5 AM. By noon on Sunday, two of the docs had responded. By bedtime on a Sunday I had had a telephone conversation with one of them. By 9 AM on Monday the third had weighed in.

None of these docs received any direct compensation for the phone calls or e-mail with me. My surgeon averaged 1 item of correspondence a week for more than a year; my daughter's surgeons are newer to the game with our family, but in the 3 months to 1 year they have treated her, each has already engaged with her in more than one uncompensated interaction.

Anecdotal - yes, but typical of the surgeons with whom I have dealt. They work, or are on call, on average more than 5 days a week - closer to 7, and their hours are not reasonable for having a life outside of medicine.

They are expensive, but at least the ones I've been involved with are worth it - and the hours they work brings their hourly rate down to lower than you might expect.

[mainer]

54. The career is changing

More and more women now in medicine. Fewer are willing to tolerate long hours. Within two decades, the majority of doctors will be female.

[Neoma]

204. What does sex ratio have to do with Surgeon vs. Brick Layer?

You're not making any kind of sense.

[mainer]

207. I'm addressing the stereotype of the evil rich white male doctor

I think once we all realize the new generation doctor is likely a harassed mom who has to run home and cook dinner for her kids, somehow that doctor doesn't seem so evil or high faluting.

[badtoworse]

55. How long does it take to learn how to butter a brick?

[lumberjack_jeff]

75. About the same amount of time it takes to learn how to put in a stitch.

Med school is arbitrarily long because it is in the interest of the members of the AMA to keep the supply of doctors low.

[mainer]

82. Oh right. It's just like sewing a dress.

It's mucking about in the entrails that gets a bit complicated.

[badtoworse]

104. You make it sound like cleaning fish

[sarge43]

68. Because a brinklayer never saved my life or saved me from being crippled the rest of my life.

Yes you have a point. "A society which valves philosophers more than plumbers will have neither good philosophy nor good plumbing." However, some work is more critical than others.

[Snake Alchemist]

76. My point is that blue collar workers should be paid A LOT more not that

surgeons should be paid any less.

[sarge43]

92. Agree that blue collar workers are getting the shaft and are not being paid what they deserve.

Don't agree that surgeons are being paid too much. Check out the cost of liablity insurance, the cost of education.

[Snake Alchemist]

106. Never never never said that surgeons are paid too much.

[sarge43]

135. In so many words, no you didn't, but you implied as much

"gobs of money" for working "less than 5 days a weeks" at "reasonable hours". So unless you're saying 10 hours or more each day are resonable hours, sounds like you believe they're not working hard enough to earn those "gobs of money", aka over paid.

[Snake Alchemist]

141. And you saw something wrong with that.

Doesn't that say something?

People never seem to want to raise the blue collar worker up.

[sarge43]

146. Male bovine fecal material

I am blue collar; my husband is; my father and one of my grandfathers were. That's about a century worth of blue demin shirts washed and ironed and a hellva lot of callus buildup.

What I saw wrong was you making a faux argument and then getting all self righteous and hostile when you were called on it.

[Snake Alchemist]

209. Check out Dragonfli's and nadinbrzynski's(sp?) posts and you will get it. nt

[Donald Ian Rankin]

197. *Skilled* manual labourers *are* paid a lot.

A skilled builder or a plumber will earn a great deal of money, and work better hours than a surgeon.

Unskilled blue-collar labour, like any unskilled labour, should not be paid as much as skilled labour. Comparing bricklayers to surgeons is like comparing master-builders to secretaries.

[white_wolf]

88. Our society values philosophers more than plumbers?

Plumbers must be downright hated, because our society seems to have nothing but contempt for philosophers.

[sarge43]

93. I believe I wrote "A society ..." n/t

[Hassin Bin Sober]

91. Good plumbing has probably saved more lives than good surgeons.

[sarge43]

97. Good point. For more people, that's probably true.

However, when you're diagnosed with advanced degenerative arthritis, I think you'd want an orthopedic surgeon doing the R&R rather than a plumber or bricklayer.

[lumberjack_jeff]

162. +1 n/t

[Blue_In_AK]

74. And why do surgery centers get paid more than surgeons?

I'm having corneal transplants and cataracts removed on Thursday. The fee for the surgery center/anesthesia (local, not general) is more than what I'm paying my surgeon. To me, that's just crazy.

[lumberjack_jeff]

79. The machinery of corneal transplant surgery is more important to the procedure.

The doctor couldn't do it with a scalpel, but with a year or two of training, a bricklayer could learn enough to manipulate the machine to do it right most of the time.

[Blue_In_AK]

83. Well, that's comforting.

I was actually impressed that my ophthalmologist has "surgeon's hands," and now you're telling me that any old ham-fisted bricklayer could do it???

[lumberjack_jeff]

161. I'm saying that a machine is a machine.

People with training can run it successfully most of the time. A doctor's training is important for the other 5%.

[spanone]

77. why are bricklayers paid more than pizza delivery guys?

[zorahopkins]

78. Why Do NBA PLayers Get Paid More The Social Workers?

NBA players live in HUGE houses. Drive HUGE cars. Have HUGE TV's.

But most social workers get paid just enough to just get by.

Which job benefits our society more?

Why do NBA players get paid more than social workers?

[Snake Alchemist]

80. Another great question. nt

[savalez]

86. Surgeons study for over decade

then they do a residency at a low wage and terrible hours. Many of them also join the military to get started and then stay on for 2 additional years as a part of their education. They save lives and are on-call a lot. Ultimately they deserve what they get.

[COLGATE4]

87. The lifestyle of surgeons is so brutal that only

the most dedicated undertake it. Long, long hours starting at 5:00 AM and in surgeries which sometimes last 12-14 hours, followed by hours more of hospital paperwork, rounds, consults, etc. To get there in the first place required at least 14 years of study, with life-draining Residencies, without counting additional training in Fellowship and sub-specialties. Most surgeons I know have a shitty family life, since their life revolves around their 'true love', the hospital, which is where you'll find them often 7 days a week. They make good money doing it but it's no walk in the park to get there or to do it. And, I know a whole load of Orthopedic Surgeons who would make out just fine as bricklayers.

[raouldukelives]

89. Why does the Govt pay more to the killers of poor people

Than to the helpers of poor people. Heck, kill enough and you get a medal to show the grandchildren.

[izquierdista]

94. My, my, aren't there a lot of jackasses in this thread!

But go ahead and bray away, that's exactly what the 1% will be expecting so that they can make lots more $$$ than both blue AND white collar working people.

[tjwash]

95. What?? I don't know any surgeon that works less than a 60-70 hour week...

...and I have 2 close family members that are in the medical profession. Even MRI and CS techs work nutty oddball hours, all major holidays, and have crazy on call schedules that would send most people looking for another line of work in 2 seconds.

There's a reason that doctors are the top candidates for the suicide, divorce, depression, and drug / alcohal addiction.

I don't know where you got your information from, but it is dead wrong.

[white_wolf]

96. I agree that manual laborers are underpaid and under appreciated.

They should get paid more, but I do think doctors earn their money in most cases. They deserve their pay a lot more than bankers and CEOs who provide nothing to society, and compared to Wall Street bankers and CEOs doctors are poor.

[TBF]

98. I find that when folks post these kind of hypotheticals

it is only to drive wedges between folks.

Believe me, a doctor or lawyer who has to take out the loans for 3-5 years of school/clerkships/fellowships are not living high on the hog. They buy in the suburbs, pay the high rent/mortgage, cars to get back and forth to work, daycares/school, saving for their own retirement, paying interest on any/all debt, etc... It is not like being homeless, of course, they are probably some of the few still living the "middle class lifestyle" but it's hardly the life of luxury.

If we want to attack someone lets look at the folks who are in the top .01% of the top 1%. Folks like Gates who make more money in their one household than 1/3 of the rest of the country. That is what we need to focus on - not whether it's more prudent to buy a BMW or Ford Focus when you're 25 (I'm in a 12 yr old Subaru myself and I'll drive it until it can't be fixed anymore) ...

You're missing the forest for the trees with these wedge arguments and they only serve to get the 99% fighting amongst themselves while the top 1% run off with all the loot.

[hunter]

99. Most surgeons would be kick-ass brick layers.

They tend to be the sort of people who excel at anything they set their mind too.

Most brick-layers are not people you'd want digging around around in your guts.

That's okay too. The vast majority of people who shouldn't be surgeons know they shouldn't be surgeons and decide to do something else.

I know bloody well I'd be a terrible surgeon. I can fix cars or computers, but that's because I can walk away in the middle of an "operation" to figure out what to do next if I run into trouble, or I don't have the right tool or part. If I mess up a part when I'm installing it I can order a new one.

A surgeon doesn't have that luxury, no, "oops, trashed that liver, leave him here on the table and we'll order him a new one."

[killbotfactory]

100. bargaining power

Not many people can or will go through the training necessary to become a surgeon, and they can demand more pay. They also have a responsibility to do their job with little error, or they can kill somebody. Unique skills that are in demand, and high levels of responsibility, drives pay up.

Most able bodied people can lay bricks with cheap training.

The lack of bargaining power leads to jobs that use common skills, even if physically hard, to be undervalued and to make the people performing that job easily replaced.

Unions are a response to this. By unionizing you can collectively bargain, and it becomes much, much more difficult for an employer to replace you or drive your wages down, because they would have to replace an entire workforce to do so. It prevents employers from exploiting workers (to the harsh degree they have in the past) by increasing the workers bargaining power.

This is why all the "job creators" hate unions, and lobby the government to rescind any and all laws that protect working people. They want cheap labor, no matter what the cost to society or how useful their employees. Their concern is shareholder profit, and their bonuses, not the workers and their wellbeing.

[Posteritatis]

101. Manual labour's horribly underpaid, but I'm not too offended at surgeons' pay. (nt)

[w8liftinglady]

103. I appreciate the sentiment behind your post...

which is why organized labor is SO critical to our labor force.Without it,we will continue to see wage disparity like you are describing.

[Nye Bevan]

105. Would you pay 30% above the going rate for a house,

because the contractor paid the bricklayers more than the market rate?

If not, there's your answer.

[Snake Alchemist]

110. Absolutely if it was well built.

I find houses built in the last 10 years to be of shoddy quality at best with problems that appear in the first year. I also find them woefully underinsulated or the insulation is improperly installed.

[JoePhilly]

108. Ummm ... When was the last time you needed an EMERGENCY BRICK LAYER????

The surgeon who repaired my totally blown out knees did so on LABOR DAY!!

Are those the "reasonable hours" you speak of??

My father who worked in construction would regularly tell me that I HAD to go to college. His reason was simple. Its better to have a career that is based first and foremost on your mind, and not your physical ability.

You used the brink layer as an example ... but by not the "furniture mover".

The latter is a far better example of straight physical labor. I'd suggest that you picked the brick layer, so you could reference his "knowledge of structure" and "eye for detail". In a sense, you are praising the brick layer for his MENTAL attributes ... or you would have used the furniture mover.

And in contrast to your claim ... the surgeon probably DID think about how they would "survive" the physical labor you describe.

My father the construction worker thought about it. As a teenager, he took me to his job sites, where I would work with him, and come home exhausted. And he used each and every such occasion to remind me that its better to have a career which derives from your MENTAL abilities rather than your PHYSICAL abilities, because your physical abilities DEGRADE more quickly. And so I thought about it specifically because HE did not want me to end up in his shoes.

You also seem to ignore the fact that the surgeon has to keep up with the ever changing techniques and knowledge. Much of brick laying, and most construction for that matter, has become a well defined process .... where one can rely on patterned designs, which reduce the "thinking" aspect.

I'm not a surgeon, but I am in a professional field similar to what you describe. And my best friend is a union sprinkler fitter. He and I have talked often of the differences in our careers.

He likes that at the end of each day, he takes no work home with him. And he can't understand how I am ok with having to travel unexpectedly for 4 or 5 days ... or how I am ok with conference calls that are at 5am, or at midnight, depending on which geography my colleagues are in. Or that after the kids go to bed, I might go on-line and do some more work ... or that I take my computer with me on vacation, and often work remotely while on vacation.

I like projects that have no simple solution, and that might take many months or even years to complete. He likes being able to complete a project in a few days or weeks.

He likes watching a building go from nothing to functional. He likes being able to curse at work.

Bottom line ... any effort to pit blue collar and white collar folks against each other is ridiculous.

[Snake Alchemist]

111. You missed the point entirely. nt

[JoePhilly]

115. As I read more of the responses ... its clear that very few "got your point". nt

[Snake Alchemist]

116. Nope. Your father probably would have, but not you apparently. nt

[JoePhilly]

117. He knew a brick layer was never going to save your life.

I do find it interesting that you did not respond to the content of my response, and have instead gone to a personal line of attack, in which you make the rather outrageous claim that you would know what my father would think better than I.

Does that tactic work for you in real life?

I doubt it.

[Snake Alchemist]

118. I'm sure your father would have liked to have been better compensated for his work.

Am I mistaken?

[Kurska]

119. Everyone in this thread seems to be telling you the same thing.

This is divisive debate about 2 people who both work extremely hard. If you want to get your bile up about something, I'd suggest you go after the bankers or ceo's who leach off our economy. Not surgeons who work shit hours and spend 1/3rd of their life in education.

[sarge43]

140. Thank you. n/t

[Incitatus]

151. excellent point

Some naive freeper types might conflate the two.

[slackmaster]

122. Obligatory Star Trek quote...

"I'm a doctor, not a bricklayer!"

[dipsydoodle]

109. Your President does too

So what.

[backscatter712]

112. A lot of surgeons don't have good hours.

Many of them work 80 hour weeks, do midnight shifts and the like, and are on call, in case somebody comes in from a bad car wreck at 3:00am needing emergency surgery to save his life.

Yes, a lot of them make the big bucks, but they also have some rough work hours.

[emilyg]

113. A surgeon saved my life twice - don't

think a bricklayer ever did. I was married to a doctor - by the time he was through with years of training - the debt was huge.

[slackmaster]

120. Becoming a surgeon requires years of specialized education and training, and lots of money up front

Being a bricklayer, not so much.

I'd venture to say that in general surgeons are much more intelligent then bricklayers. There is nothing inherently wrong or unfair about becoming prosperous as a consequence of hard work and raw talent.

[Snake Alchemist]

127. That is true.

I just think that anyone who works that hard should be compensated very well.

[slackmaster]

142. On this we agree

Every person who works deserves a living wage, at the very least.

[Quantess]

128. I can't believe people are rec' ing this! Are you kidding me?

Excuse me, but a surgeon's job is really critical and needs to be precise! A surgeon has a lot more at stake, and a lot less room for error.

The argument could be made that brick layers should be paid better, along with other professions. But why compare them to surgeons? That's nuts!

[Snake Alchemist]

131. That is not the point at all.

The fact that you see it that way is what is the whole point.

[Quantess]

138. I read your OP and I don't think I missed anything.

There is the concept of supply and demand that really is not going to go away any time soon. The price people are willing to pay for an excellent surgeon is always going to be more than the price people are willing to pay for an excellent bricklayer.

Have you ever had surgery? I have, and properly done surgery is priceless, really. I am incredibly thankful that there are skilled surgeons who are able to fix the human body. The really capable ones deserve a lot of money. What's "a lot"? More than average, anyway!

That said, brick layers should make a good living, too.

[Snake Alchemist]

210. Your last line got it. nt

[Avalux]

132. Surgeons have the ability to kill people if they don't do their jobs correctly.

If they 'screw up' during surgery, the patient dies; some are better than others, some do screw up sometimes. The amount of schooling, long hours training and skill required to cut into a human being to fix an illness, etc. is worth what they make.

Sorry, don't agree with you.

[Obama3_16]

133. because the input cost of obtaining an MD and successfully making it through residency is unbelievab

not to mention the brains and skill it takes to be a surgeon. Add all of those up and the critical life-saving aspects of what they do, and you've got a profession that is in exceedingly high demand. Therefore, they will make more than even a very accomplished bricklayer since said bricklayer doesn't do nearly as much to attain it and there are many more qualified to do that work.

[Vinca]

134. I am able to lay bricks. I have also laid real hardwood floors.

I would not have wanted me for a doctor when I had my hip replacement. That fine orthopedic surgeon had years upon years of expensive specialized training. I had a 5 minute lesson on how to use the floor nailer. Manual laborers deserve a decent wage, but I don't begrudge a surgeon his fee.

[Dreamer Tatum]

137. Because their output is more valuable.

End of silly discussion.

[provis99]

143. the medical profession CAUSES 225,000 deaths a year.

I don't think bricklayers kill anybody.
http://www.cancure.org/medical_errors.htm

[Dreamer Tatum]

145. Using that logic, Christmas cards cause Christmas. nt

[provis99]

147. you need to read on the definition of logic.

Since what you demonstrate is foolishness, not logic.

[mainer]

176. definitely don't go to a surgeon for your next operation

a bricklayer doesn't cause deaths, so he's certain to be better at curing you.

[renie408]

144. I have laid bricks. SA, I would be happy to do any surgeries you might need...

I just googled 'DIY brick wall' and voila! I got all the information I needed. I built a really nice patio wall. I was SO proud of myself!

Snake Alchemist, I would be more than happy to do a little google research and perform any surgery that you or your family members might need at a fraction of the cost of an actual surgeon. I have worked on animals my whole life and even had to take care of a horse with an amputated leg for a few years. I feel really comfortable giving shots, using a scalpel and stuff like that.

Just let me know when...

[JSnuffy]

149. Time invested in training and ability to do the task...

I'm pretty confident that I can become a halfway decent brick-layer with about 5 minutes of instruction.

Not so much with the surgery...

[Incitatus]

150. Something called supply and demand.

[Carolina]

155. What is the source of your information about surgeons? You/your comparison are quite WRONG!

You are sorely mistaken about the work hours.

Do you have any idea how long it takes to become a surgeon: 4 years college, 4 years medical school, 5 years (minimum) for general surgery residency, more for cardiothoracic, neurosurgery and other surgical specialties!

The surgeon must understand, know and integrate on a moment's, life saving notice: anatomy (normal and variant), physiology, pharmacology and pathology. The skill and knowledge required are daunting.

As a physician, I can tell you that you have no idea what you're talking about. When you need coronary artery bypass surgery or internal fixation of a broken bone or evacuation of an intracranial hematoma (think Natasha Richardson) or emergency laparotomy for a ruptured appendix.... call a bricklayer!

Oh and BTW, yes, the perks of those long years of education, hard work (residency and fellowship are HARD WORK) and delayed gratification are nice cars and home,s and maybe when time allows a nice vacation after one pays off all the educational debt!

[nadinbrzezinski]

160. You are going about it the wrong way

It is not the individual, but value systems.

That said, you are wrong if you think surgery is not a king of manual labor reduced to it's essence.

No, it is not done in the sun, there are good reasons for that, but it does require stamina.

But you are going about it the wrong way. My solution though, clutch your pearls, since it involves quite a bit of...European socialism. That means strict labor laws, which means brick layer does not work more than 40 hours a week, even less maybe, and residents...think of your apprentice brick layer, does not work 36/12 shifts.

Oh and salaries...just about the same middle class salary. If a surgeon would make more, just like the master tradesman, it involves rank in the profession.

Will this happen in the us? I don't expect to see this in my lifetime, short of a revolution in the culture, that so far values greed...but that is starting to change.

[Snake Alchemist]

168. Congratulations. You absolutely nailed it. nt

[Dragonfli]

169. Finally an adequate answer, the poster IMO was not putting down MD's so much as supporting brickies

He was accused unfairly by many of devaluing the surgeon when I doubt that was the intent.
You are the only one to come up with an actual answer to his real question, he was questioning why such a hard job as bricklayer left a man broken young in body and completely in wallet while other tradesmen (like surgeons) are compensated fairly.

Contrary to what is thought by many here that have never learned a skilled trade, it requires skill. knowledge, years of training, and yes even talent to approach a rank of capability that is close to a living wage, I was disgusted by how the trades are looked down on as unskilled labor that one poster claimed he could learn in 5 minutes, now that would be one wall built that would pay homage to surrealism of the sort usually reserved for draped clocks dripping down objects, I would call it the wavy gravy wall and would wager it would prove how a WELL trained brickie can save one's life.

The value systems employed in the form of capitalism displayed in this country is designed to fail all but those at the top of the pyramid, and those at the top like the game rigged, it will indeed take a revolution in culture because even those the system was designed to take away from to feed the greed of the few have been brainwashed to believe in the bogus value system that screws them in the first place, that is why so many defended the doctors (who I value as highly as any other tradesman) while implying the "grunts" just don't deserve much because they are "gasp" laborers (little more than trained monkeys really), even tho they also must train and apprentice for their positions.

[nadinbrzezinski]

179. Putting "down" the trades

Goes to the guilds of the middle ages...

If people realized surgeons were barbers at one time.

This cultural revolution already happened in places like sweeden. It's a much older population and the wage differentials, while there, are meassured in a few cases in the hundreds.

Oh and tips are unheard off for another maligned us profession.

[Snake Alchemist]

208. BULLSEYE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Finally someone who gets it.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

212. Forbidding doctors from working more than 40 hours a week would cause hospitals serious problems.

One of the reasons surgeons are paid so much is because of the incredibly high workload doctors go through, especially but not exclusively as trainees, and I believe that there are good reasons for that.

I laughed my head off at the OP's characterisation of a surgeon's life...

[nadinbrzezinski]

221. When the state of new York cut resident's Shift hours from 36 to 24

The AMA and the hospitals made this argument

Two things happened on the way to the forum, less medical mistakes and the world did not implode.

It's been 10 years iirc.

Yes, residents still work more than forty hours, but they are doing their jobs much more safely.

Heck, even Britain, where that scheduled came from, is now down to far better schedules where docs are rested. Trauma works, iirc, on a fire schedule, 24 on, 72 off.

[WillowTree]

167. How much does that bricklayer pay for malpractice insurance every year?

How much does his office, office equipment and office staff cost? How often does he have to go back for re-training in the latest bricklaying technology and techniques?

And by the way, most tradesmen that I know are union members who make a reasonable living, are paid overtime for more than 40 hours/week and premium pay if they have to work on the weekend for some reason (which isn't as often as you make out) and do take vacations. In fact, just about any union tradesman makes significantly more money than I do and I'm fairly comfortable financially. That bleak description of the life of a journeyman in the trades amounts to a bad cliché and an elitist view of those who work in blue collar pursuits.

Yes, surgeons make more money than bricklayers. If you think there's something wrong with that, I suggest that you have your next kidney transplant performed by someone who went to school (plus internship and residency) exactly as long as a bricklayer does and let us know how that works out.

[Egalitariat]

171. Supply and Demand is the answer to most questions that involve "how much we pay"

Generally, you don't have to go past that.

[mainer]

177. Another conundrum

my neighbor just finished writing his 1000-page novel, but no publisher will take it. Yet he put in JUST AS MANY HOURS' LABOR writing it as Stephen King does with his books. (Even though my neighbor's manuscript does suck.)

Why doesn't he get paid as much as Stephen King?!!!

He worked just as hard!!!

He put in just as many hours!!!

He turned in just as many pages!!!

Equal labor and effort deserves equal pay. Doesn't it? Doesn't it?

Or maybe talent, brain power, and skill has something to do with how much one's labor is worth?

[gulliver]

178. Speak for yourself. I don't put less value on manual labor.

Maybe you do. I find it kind of offensive.

[mmonk]

180. Why do airline pilots make less than managers at McDonald's?

[Little Star]

231. Because the pilot doesn't have our lives in his hands?

Good point you made! Why indeed?

[mmonk]

235. Frightening, isn't it?

[Honeycombe8]

181. This is a joke question, right? You seriously don't know? Here's your answer:

Sit down and plan on becoming a surgeon. Write out the plan. The plan starts in high school (grades required, extracurricular activities). Then on to a university and continue the plan. Grades are paramount, if you want to get into med school. Your major in college will be pre-med. (Don't forget to start a tally of the cost involved, whether you pay for it, your parents, or your government.) Then on to med school. Not easy to get in. If you don't get in, make plans to do something else. Otherwise, continue with your education in Med School. (Don't forget to continue the tally of costs. So far you've got about 7 years of post-secondary education, incl. room and board, to count.) Still doing okay? Okay, then. On to your internship and residency. You will be working about 100 hours a week, I think. You will often sleep at the hospital. Maybe you'll be married by now, so you'll have someone to support you. You're still making nothing to little.

After you're through with all that, tally up the costs (hundreds of thousands of dollars), and all the time and effort involved (about 15 years, counting high school, I t hink)...time where you spent thousands of hours and countless sleepless nights studying because you couldn't cruise through anything: you had to get excellent grades.

You've made it! And people wonder why you get paid so much! Seriously! And you can repair a child's cleft palate, and change a life.

Now sit down and plan on becoming a brick layer. First, you should finish high school, but it's not required. Grades don't matter. You get a job as an apprentice working for a brick layer or construction outfit. (No costs to tally yet. But you can start counting the apprentice time as time invested in your vocation.)

Ba-da-bing. You're a brick layer. No, you're not great at it, yet. Still, you're a brick layer. Costs: zero. Time and effort: no more than a lot of other people invest in learning a vocation. Eventually you can lay some beautiful brick. You do not change a life. And some people without any training in the field can lay brick, too, with some basic instructions from the internet.

It comes down to this:

How much in demand is the job, and how many people can/will do it?

Few people can/will want to be a plastic surgeon. (For example, I didn't have the grades, and I didn't have the discipline or drive to go to school & then intern and residency for years. I guess I had enough brains, but I'm not sure about that. So I couldn't have been one, even if I wanted to be.) It is highly in demand. All the time, regardless of the economy. OTOH, a lot of people can/would be a brick layer. It's cyclical in nature, being in demand when construction is high, but not in demand in recessions. I could easily have been a brick layer, if I wanted to, except that I'm of an age that women wouldn't have been hired for that waaaay back when.

[pitohui]

185. you could have easily been a bricklayer except you couldn't?

in what universe does your post make sense?

you cannot easily be a bricklayer and i can tell both from your post and from freejoe's post that neither of you have clue one about what a bricklayer is or what he does -- in your own post you make an excuse for why you COULDN'T become a bricklayer even as you claim anybody could

go out tomorrow and find a bricklayer and get back to me...we both know you can't, so all this hoo ha about how anybody can be a bricklayer is so much horseshit!

fact is, you're not a bricklayer, you could have never been a bricklayer, and i'll fall on the floor and eat my hat is you even KNOW anyone who ever worked as a bricklayer

[Honeycombe8]

190. Okay, so communication isn't your strong suit. Here's a restatement,

with the implications spelled out:

I could easily have been a brick layer, except for the fact that others would not have hired me for the job because of legal discrimination at the time, when I was young. But on my part, I could've done it...I had the skills, the education, etc.

A black man could easily have been a brick layer, too, but for the fact that in the area I'm from, he wouldn't have been hired either.

It's not an insult to list the qualifications of a bricklaying job, and they happen to be less than for a plastic surgeon. That's why one gets paid a lot of $$$, and one does not.

Don't take things so personally. This is a case of facts. You'll never make it in the business world or employment world if you can't take the reality of facts. If you WANT to get paid over $200,000 a year, go for the surgeon profession rather than the bricklaying vocation.

[alcibiades_mystery]

202. Exactly

[FreeJoe]

183. It's all about supply and demand

No one sets the price of surgeons or brick layers...we all do. The laws of supply and demand weigh or demand for surgeons and brick layers against people's ability and desire to be surgeons and brick layers and the result is what we've got.

It is not a statement about the relative importance of either. Teachers are more important to our society than surgeons, but are paid far, far less. Becoming a teacher is much easier than becoming a surgeon and a lot more people want to be teachers than surgeons. The result is that there is a much larger supply of teachers and so the market price is much lower.

Being a brick layer is arduous and dangerous work. I certainly wouldn't want to do it. The barriers to entry are extremely low. It requires very little education or experience. Because so many people are willing to do the work, the supply is quite large and so the price is relatively low.

Nothing about this means that either is paid what they deserve. "Deservingness" is not a basis for what we pay people. That's why people that play sports that they enjoy make huge sums and people that do charity work make so little. They aren't getting paid what they deserve. They are getting paid what the market dictates they should be paid.

We could change things. We could lower the barriers to becoming a surgeon. We could subsidize the cost of going to medical school. We could reduce the education requirements. We could import more surgeons. All of those things would increase the supply and reduce the cost.

We could increase the barriers to becoming a brick layer. We could require them to be licensed. We could require them to attend special brick laying schools. We could add special permitting requirements or that they purchase a limited number of brick laying "tokens". These things would decrease the supply of brick layers. It would also raise the cost of brick laying, so demand would shift to non-brick building practices. The price of brick layers would be higher, but there would be fewer jobs for them.

It is important to remember a few things about people's pay. Market forces are the dominant forces in determining how much people get paid. That's a pretty efficient way to allocate pay and jobs. It doesn't mean that people get paid a fair wage for the work they do if, by fairness, you mean that people with similar levels of effort or risk get paid the same. If you try to ignore market forces and pay people by some doctrine of fairness, you'll wind up with shortages of people in some jobs and surpluses in others. It would be nice if the market didn't rule us the way it does. It would be nice if gravity wouldn't hurl me to the ground if I stepped off a cliff. Sadly, the world works the way the world works.

[pitohui]

184. because of class hate

there is a deep tradition going back probably 2000 years or more of despising the man who works with his hands, probably because none of us could survive without the man who works with us hands and it's human to hate being dependent

since the late 20th c. true many of us couldn't survive w.out surgeons either but prior to that time, to be operated on, was to die, so it is a pretty new thing in human history that a surgeon actually performs a useful life extending task

they should both be fairly paid but the surgeon is still paid like he is a luxury artisan who does nothing useful and hence commands by far the higher price

an artifact of history now enshrined in habit and prejudice...

[WillowTree]

194. Don't know how to break this to you, but surgeons certainly do work with their hands.

Just sayin'.

[SidDithers]

217. Surgeons have been saving lives since the 14th century...

Surgeons were treating wounds and setting broken bones while learned doctors did little more than drain some blood, apply a poultice, and pray that God would help the body expunge evil humours.

Sid

[fujiyama]

187. Go through 12-16 years of grueling education coming out with over $200,000 in debt

and then ask this again.

While I do think some doctors are making a killing off a very fucked up medical system, I happen to believe that if you invest many years of time and money you should be compensated well - especially if you have extremely rare skills and knowledge that are in high demand.

Now an investment banker on the other hand...

[Yo_Mama]

189. You're going to start your career with a chunkload of debt

And you have previously spent many years in school and training.

Then you have malpractice insurance and a whole lot of stress, and most surgeons don't really have great hours.

What sets the price of labor is usually supply and demand - and we're older, we need a lot more surgery, we're not building as much, and not many people will go through the years of grinding work to become a surgeon.

[limpyhobbler]

192. Slightly different question: How much more should a surgeon make than a brick layer?

I see alot of people saying supply and demand. More people can lay bricks, very few can do surgery.

That's true. But how much of the salary difference is accounted for by that?

We don't have to accept "supply and demand" as the final answer, even if it is a partly correct answer.

One of the reasons why surgeons make so much money is that when you need a surgeon, you don't have a choice. You have to pay or you could die. People are sort of held hostage.

Also you can't really call in three or four surgeons to get the best estimate. You can't take bids. (Not that it would be a good idea to.) You can only choose from surgeons the insurance company will allow. And the price is not negotiable.

Assuming decent insurance, the patient is not even paying for the surgery. The insurance company pays. The actual price of the service is determined largely by bureaucratic price fixing between insurance companies and provider groups.

So it's clear that for multiple reasons there is not really a free market at work when choosing a surgeon.
And so the supply and demand answer from Econ 101 is not sufficient.

Also, are surgeon salaries alot higher in the US compared to Canada where insurance is public?
I suspect yes.

How about compared to the UK, where the whole system is public?
Again, I am guessing US surgeons are paid alot more than their Canadian or UK counterparts.

How much should doctors make? I think it's a fair question.

I found some comparison to other countries, although I'm not sure how reliable it is. I just did a quick google search.

This site has a comparison chart of surgeon salaries in various countries:
http://www.worldsalaries.org/generalphysician.shtml


Interesting 2009 article from Slate:

There's no question that doctors in the United States make a lot of money, especially compared with their counterparts abroad. American doctors make, on average, four times what French doctors earn. And it's not just because everyone in America makes more money: The gap between doctors' incomes and those of professionals is far bigger in the United States than elsewhere. In the 1990s, the ratio of the average American doctor's income to the average American employee's income was about 5.5. In Germany, it was 3.4; Canada, 3.2; Australia, 2.2; Switzerland, 2.1; France, 1.9; Sweden, 1.5; the United Kingdom, 1.4.

American doctors' salaries are high for several reasons. The first is the cost of education. In France and Great Britain, students go directly to medical school after high school, and their entire educations are free. In the United States, students must first get a bachelor's degree before attending medical school, and the average medical student's debt is $155,000. Then come at least three years of residency, which usually pays less than $50,000 a year. After all that, it's no wonder doctors feel entitled to six-figure salaries. Another reason U.S. doctors get paid a lot is market forces: In a single-payer system like Britain's, the government can bargain down the prices of treatments, which leads to lower income for doctors. No such entity exists in the United States—Medicare is big, but not that big.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/prescriptions/2009/09/lets_pay_doctor.html

[yellowcanine]

193. For the same reason ball players are paid more than surgeons.

Because our market system values what they do more.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

196. So much foolishness, I don't know where to begin.

1) What are the reasons surgeons earn more than bricklayers?

What it all boils down to is "if you don't pay surgeons a lot, you won't get a large enough pool of sufficiently skilled people willing to be surgeons. Even if you pay bricklayers much less, enough people able to lay bricks well enough will still volunteer to do so".

:-To become a surgeon takes decades of practice, working extraordinarily hard and not earning anything (for a while) and then not earning much (for a while longer). To become a bricklayer takes far less training. So unless you pay surgeons a lot more, not enough people will choose to become surgeons.

:-To be a good surgeon, you need to be very intelligent; to become a good bricklayer, you don't. So the pool of potential surgeons is much smaller, and hence potential surgeons could earn more in other fields, so again, you need to pay them more to get them to be surgeons.

:-The difference between having your surgery performed by the best surgeon and a less good surgeon is far more than the difference between having your bricks layed by the best bricklayer and a less good bricklayer. So there's more incentive to make sure you have the best surgeons possible.



2) For similar reasons, *skilled* manual labour is increasingly highly paid nowadays. A skilled builder or plumber - as opposed to someone unskilled, which from the wages you're implying they earn your notional bricklayer must be - earns a lot, and can work extremely good hours if they choose. Unskilled labour, though, always will, and always should, be paid less than skilled labour.

Comparing surgeons to bricklayers is like comparing master builders to secretaries.

3) Your summary of the working conditions of surgeons is not accurate - I don't know where you got the idea that doctors work reasonable hours from.

[lonestarnot]

198. Good to see someone giv'n this thread the bidness!

[Johnny Rico]

201. Sanity at last.

[mainer]

205. Are bricklayers paid more than doctors anywhere in the world?

With the exception of professional athletes, jobs requiring intellectual skills tend to pay higher than jobs requiring physical labor. Whether you go to Morocco or Ethiopia or India, doctors are going to be paid more than bricklayers.

It can't all be blamed on the AMA. Nor can it be blamed on the ills of American society.

[slackmaster]

225. I believe they used to make the same salaries in Cuba until a few years ago

Servers in restaurants did better, because they made tips.

[LanternWaste]

213. I believe manual labor is merely but part and parcel of the total of value.

I believe manual labor is merely but part and parcel of the total of value. Investment, time, training, specialties, cost-benefit analysis, et. al. all make up the greater whole of value.

Seems to me that mental labor is just as demanding, if not more so, than manual labor. I'd hate to see mental labors reduced and minimized even more than they already are.



Edit: Would appear that bricklayers are not living in poverty after an apprenticeship (or internship-- six of one half a dozen of the other)

"Median hourly wages of brickmasons and blockmasons in May 2008 were $21.94. The middle 50 percent earned between $16.77 and $28.46."

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos201.htm

[Boudica the Lyoness]

220. My dad was a brickie

He was a bricklayer for 50 years (including apprenticeship). He was the best bricklayer in town and did the fancy brickwork arches in the town. He worked in all kinds of weather for five days a week. My dad retired at age 65 and my parents live very well, always have. They are in their 80's now and still have their lovely home and all that. They always had great healthcare no matter who he was working for. This was in good old England by the way.

Yes, his body is very beat up. It was hard for him to keep working till he was 65, but he did. He did good but it was not easy. He always resented the people who went jogging after work. He said it was a complete waste of good energy. When my dad came home from work he used what little energy he had left for tending the garden and weekends for home improvement projects.

Doctors in the US are overpaid. Surgeons are alright in my book but I have ran across too many arrogant doctors who don't give a toss. All they can do is blame the victim and write prescriptions.

[YoungDemCA]

222. Increasingly, the American labor force is becoming more and more specialized...

...which leads to the need for highly skilled workers with increasingly more years of college education and training.

However, the number of people who can or will actually complete all that education/training is still pretty small. And college education, as you know, is becoming far more expensive than it ever was, so this gives the already wealthy kids an extra leg up in the game.

[Snake Alchemist]

228. Another great point. nt

[cliffordu]

227. Because a brick layer can't

fix you if you get bowel cancer.

Mostly.

[kentuck]

230. It's all relative...

If it wasn't for the bricklayer, the surgeon would not have a place in which to do his surgery. Without the manufacturers of medical equipment, he would not be able to perform any surgeries. Without education grants, paid by the taxes of many middle class Americans, many surgeons would not be able to get an education to be a surgeon. No one is totally independent of the other. The question should be how much more should a surgeon make compared to a bricklayer, in my opinion.

[ProgressiveEconomist]

234. This is easy. STATE LICENSING

restricts the supply of doctors through vigorous prosecution for "practicing medicine without a license". Meanwhile, ANYBODY can work as a bricklayer, even though bricklayers' mistakes can persist for decades. Doctors' most serious mistakes literally get buried PDQ.

Getting the state to license an occupation and prosecute unlicensed practice vigorously is a sure route to superior wages. This issue has been studied by many fine economists going back 235 years (to Adam Smith). See, for example, http://web.missouri.edu/~podgurskym/Econ_4345/syl_articles/kleiner.pdf .