What Muslims Around the World Think About Women's Rights, in Charts

[BainsBane]

"We often talk about "the Islamic world," or the "Muslim community," but sometimes it takes being smacked with an enormous, amazing data dump to remind us that Muslims are actually an incredibly diverse group -- if you can call them a group -- who adhere to views that are informed by their cultural and political context as much as their religion.

For their mammoth new study about the world's Muslims, the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life interviewed more than 38,000 Muslims in 39 countries on topics ranging from morality, to politics and justice, and the relationships between the sexes.
. . .

One big takeaway is this: The way Muslims see the role of women is highly dependent on where they live. . . .

Another interesting finding was that Muslim women aren't always more likely to support greater freedoms for themselves than their male counterparts are. On the question of whether it should be a woman's right to decide whether or not to wear a veil, "in 12 of the 23 countries where the question was asked, Muslim women voice greater support than Muslim men ... in the remaining 11 countries, opinions of women and men do not differ significantly on this question."

Elsewhere, the report offered both promising and frightening news. Overall, the survey found that most Muslims see little tension between being religiously devout and living in a modern society, most favor democracy over authoritarian rule, and the vast majority reject acts of violence like suicide bombings. Still, 26 percent in Bangladesh say violence is sometimes justified, along with 29 percent in Egypt, and 39 percent in Afghanistan. Pew also revealed that U.S. Muslims are more moderate and tolerant than those elsewhere: They are much less inclined to support suicide bombing and are more likely to believe that people of other faiths can go to heaven."

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/05/what-muslims-around-the-world-think-about-womens-rights-in-charts/275450

Full Study here: http://www.pewforum.org/Muslim/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-exec.aspx

[msongs]

1. rule by religion IS authoritarian rule whether voted in with 51% majority or not nt

[BainsBane]

2. How does that relate to this study?

Where is this rule by religion?

[get the red out]

4. Absolutely correct

Also how would anyone ever speak out against religion in countries where it is a crime to do so?

[BainsBane]

5. Where is it a crime to speak out against religion?

In which countries?

[LadyHawkAZ]

6. ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blasphemy_law

[BainsBane]

7. Canada, Australia, and Austria

are on that list.

[LadyHawkAZ]

8. Canada's law is explained in the link provided:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blasphemous_libel

So is Australia's:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blasphemy_law_in_Australia

Western society isn't perfect. However, I can't remember the last time we did this.

[BainsBane]

14. the point is there is not one Islam

Most governments of countries with predominately Muslim populations are in fact secular. What is unfortunate is to take a case in Pakistan and attribute it to 2 billion people on the planet. It's broad brushing of the highest degree. The above study isn't just about Pakistan. It's about Turkey, Indonesia, Kosovo, and dozens of other countries.

If people refuse to view peoples and countries on their own merits rather than lumping them into an undifferentiated notion they have in their head about what Islam is, that really is a deliberate choice to remain uninformed.

[get the red out]

9. Check out Blasphemy Laws

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blasphemy_law

http://www.pewforum.org/Government/Laws-Penalizing-Blasphemy,-Apostasy-and-Defamation-of-Religion-are-Widespread.aspx


There are a lot of countries that have laws against speaking out against religion.

[BainsBane]

21. I'd like to see you name them

I'd like to see you think about specific countries and places rather than imaging there is a single monolithic Islam. I have looked at that list, and there are a number of non-Muslim nations included, but for some reason you haven't raised that as a concern in posts about Canada, Italy, or Austria.

[get the red out]

27. Where did I say it was limited to Muslim nations????????

Sorry, I don't like those laws anywhere, I don't give anyone a pass. "I'd like to see you name them" is simply bullying since I answered the question you raised regarding what countries have those laws. Many countries have those laws. I gave you two links.

[BainsBane]

31. Bullying?

To ask you to be specific rather than making a broad brush statement?
I've had two discussions with you. Here you accuse me of bullying when I ask you to specific. The other time you said Muslims hated women (never mind 51% of Muslims are women) and referred to Muslim feminists as "apologists."

So here are some of these apologists that so despise themselves. http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/2013/03/06/Women-in-Egypt-stand-strong-against-sexual-terrorism-.html

[get the red out]

38. Once again

I never said it was limited to Muslim nations, you are making assumptions.

And here is what you REALLY want:

OH MY GOD SAVE ME, CANADA HAS A BLASPHEMY LAW, I NEED TO IMMIGRATE TO SAUDI ARABIA FAST BECAUSE CANADA IS SO CLOSE!!!!! OH I'VE BEEN SO WROOOOONG.

Yea, like I worry about disagreeing with the Canadians when I disagree with my own country's foreign policy about 80% of the time.

And I am glad that women who try to gain rights in Muslim nations are apologists for their religion because they had better be, considering the dire consequences if they ever sound like they aren't. Death is permanent, I want these ladies to survive their fight.

[BainsBane]

41. It really is a lost cause

[get the red out]

50. I have a question for you: Not hostile

My question is what do you want people to take away from your threads about women in Islamic countries?

Perhaps I have read you wrong, I have no problem admitting that, but I have read you as wanting support for well-behaved Muslim ladies who ask for more rights; laudable goal to be sure. However, it seems that you want people to voice support without criticizing Islam or the culture in very restrictive Muslim countries. I could be wrong, as I said.

My issue doesn't have anything to do with you personally, but it has to do with getting the impression overall in various liberal leaning online discussions (not all at DU by any means) that since George Buch was a wretched monster (we can agree on that I'm sure) and bombed the hell out of Iraq and Afghanistan (two useless wars that should nave never been); that as a liberal I am supposed to give Islam a pass on how women in the majority of Islamic countries are treated that I don't have to give the Catholic Church in Latin America, and would be soundly and justly criticized for giving the Catholic Church, for instance (you could fill in the blank with various Christian Fundy groups in the US also, none of which I have a favorable opinion of, to say the least).

I have grown weary through the years of the "speak no evil of Islam" approach, which seems just as silly as when various conservatives are unable to speak out against racist Christian Churches, for instance. And I'm not even an Atheist! I just wish the belief systems that have become most popular throughout the world would allow women equal status and accept no excuses as to why they will not.

I doubt the existence of any actual democracy on this planet btw. We pretend to have one in the US, but it's really just all bought and paid for by large corporations so we are fooling ourselves that we have democracy simply because more people here have a better standard of living than in other parts of the world. We CAN however, speak out against religions and not face jail or execution by the legal system, or murder by our entrenched families (maybe some families, but not anything like the scale of other countries, generally Islamic countries, I apologize for saying.)

So there may be no hope for me adopting your point of view. But maybe I am just unclear as to what that point of view is.

[NCTraveler]

3. Really doesn't paint a pretty picture of them as far as statistics go. nt

[get the red out]

10. The stats are pretty ugly

At least I think so, with my 'western' mind damaged by all these years of horrific secular liberty.

But seriously, if I had to agree with the status quo in order to not be imprisoned or worse, I would go along with it, most people would. Who would be very vocal in speaking out! I am sure I would try to justify my lower status the way I had been brainwashed to do so. Who wants to risk someone finding out you think different and punishing you in some horrible way?

It means nothing to me if "stats" say some women in this world don't want more freedom when they could be punished for thinking so.

[Honeycombe8]

42. +1. nt

[Blue_In_AK]

11. The "violence is sometimes justified" remark

reminds me that just a couple of days ago we saw that 44% of self-proclaimed Republicans believe that a violent uprising will be necessary soon IN AMERICA. And I would assume that these are so-called "Christians." http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022784789

[LadyHawkAZ]

13. Fundies are fundies everywhere.

Unfortunately.

[BainsBane]

22. excellent point

I'd love to see a comparison of these very came questions with other parts of the world.

Not to mention deciding that fear of guns should be a psychiatric diagnosis.

[randome]

12. So do you believe that Islamic women who DO object to virtual enslavement...

...should be ignored by the rest of the world because that's the culture of the men who dominate them?

[BainsBane]

18. No

(I'll ignore the fact that your question is a complete non-sequitur as it bears no relation to the OP)

Nor do I believe Muslim women should be ignored by Westerners whose primary interest appears to be declaring themselves superior to the rest of the world.

Yesterday I posted these two threads about activism by Egyptian women, and few people displayed the slightest interest in them: Women in Egypt protesting sexual terrorism. http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022790016

Women in Egypt protesting sexist comments by a Muslim Brotherhood official.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022789694


I don't see a lot of concern for Muslim women on this board.

[closeupready]

24. FWIW, I also misinterpreted your OP.

In fact, I share your views, as - I presume - randome does, as well.

[BainsBane]

37. My point was simply to encourage people look at differences

between countries. I get tired of "Islam is this," or "Muslims are that." Obviously some don't care and refuse to consider anything that challenges their sense of cultural superiority, but it's an effort to encourage some people to at least consider differences on the level of nation state.

[LadyHawkAZ]

32. There's quite a bit of concern

but the thing about concern is, people tend to use it on the ones who need it most. I think the lack of activity on your posts may have something to do with who posted it.

This crossed my Facebook feed this morning:

Bestselling Turkish Writer is receiving death threats, after she took her veil off

http://www.muslimwomennews.com/faces/sn.php?nid=21964

Arguing that there is no verse for wearing headscarves in the Quran, Kazan has faced heavy criticism also in her country due to her thoughts. Her own father attacked her house with stones. Kazan who worked voluntarily at WFUNA, a human rights association of United Nations, claims that headscarves were used due to geographical conditions before Islam by both Arabic women and men as a custom. Conducting studies on Women Rights in Islam, Kazan explained why she uncovered her head and what has changed in her life since then.

(snip)

I suffered from vitamin D deficiency since my skin didn't get enough sunlight by then and this normally causes serious illnesses, weakness and mental fatigue. I sunbathed a lot. Then I tied my hair in a pony-tail and played tennis under the blue sky with my white tennis clothes on. I cannot tell you how good it felt. Then I fulfilled my dream of growing nails and putting on red nail polish, which was a personal remembrance to me. I had met a woman in my trip to Iran who was forced to put her hands into a bag full of insects just because she had put on red nail polish... Whenever I put on red nail polish, I still remember that woman with sadness...

Now I am free and believe that God has no problem with the hair on my head, He will not burn me in his Hell for this reason, He holds us with much more mercy and kindness than we think, and that being "a good person" is much more important than wearing a dark veil.

I have understood that destroying our lives like a criminal in pain and tears just because we express our feelings of thankfulness clearly cannot be something He desires. And I have chosen to accept everyone He created, without conditions, prejudices and with love like He does. This new movement which saves Muslim women from the primitive image of Arabic nomadic life should rather be encouraged than being criticized. Women should be the sole decision makers on what they wear.

Where's the support? People here dissed Amina Tyler and went to some pretty extreme lengths to try to discredit her. People here dissed Sila Sahin. Where was the support? Aliaa Elmahdy got rape and death threats for her epic (nude) protest on the treatment of women in Egypt: why is the concern directed only at women protesting sexual assault who dress "properly"?- think hard about that one for a minute. Where's the support? Were those women Westerners, looking down their noses from a Western perspective? Why the vehement insistence, contrary to all evidence, that veiling is the one and only free choice that women have anywhere, and that those who get free of it are mere patriarchal tools doing what teh menz tell them to? Where's the support?

Did we support Sarah Palin's goals when she claimed to be a "feminist" speaking for women and their needs? How about Batshit Annie? Why is this different? Why, if we scoff at fundies in our own country and fight their ideas tooth and nail, should we honor them in others?

How any of that adds up to anything other than support for social conservatism, in direct defiance of the cause of women's rights, is completely beyond me, even if I am "too Western and superior" to be allowed an opinion. In fact if you want to go that route, to say "You can't have an opinion on women's rights in Muslim countries because Western bombings, drones, wars blah blah" is also using the broad brush- I haven't bombed anyone, I don't run a drone, I protested the wars, and the treatment of women in Islamic societies still, in my imperialist superior Western opinion, sucks. Muslims aren't all the same, everywhere? Well duh, but neither are all Westerners speaking from an imperialist warmonger perspective. Some of us just don't think women's rights should take a back seat to "respect" for fundamentalist abusers of any stripe, that's all.

[BainsBane]

33. only other threads of mine do get attention

so I don't think that argument holds.

[BainsBane]

34. Why do you assume Muslim feminists are like Sarah Palin?

the notion is absurd. The article I sited in that other thread was a critique of religious patriarchy. Your response does show you couldn't be bothered to read any of those views.

[LadyHawkAZ]

35. It has the same absurdity level as assuming they're definitely not

when in fact they run across a spectrum just like self-described feminists anywhere else. I just posted an article from one who definitely isn't a Sarah, in fact, if you'd care to comment on it.

I think we can probably exempt the other three women I noted from being Sarahs as well. Where was the support for them?

[BainsBane]

36. Amina clearly has had lots of support

For reasons we might all speculate about. But since the fundamental purpose of many seem to be 1) to declare religion as evil, and or to 2) display their own superiority over the rest of humanity, actions by Muslim women don't merit much attention, particularly in they are engaging in protest. How can Muslim feminists protest when they don't even exist, or are so full of self loathing they can't summon anything but apology for their subjugation? That is what many around here seem to think.

As reactionary as any Muslim woman might be, it's safe to assume there is no one else on this planet like Sarah Palin.

[LadyHawkAZ]

39. It would be an incorrect assumption

There are other people here, in this country, like Sarah Palin; she has a grass-roots (I suspect the invasive and irritating Bermuda variety) support movement. People are people everywhere. Some of those people are Sarahs. Sometimes what rises to the top isn't cream, it's just scum.

Not that all the women writing in favor of veiling are going to be Sarahs- sometimes immersion in a particular ideology is a difficult thing to shake. We have feminists in the West who are still (pardon the term) wedded to the idea of marriage and monogamy as the only acceptable social norm, and modesty as the only alternative to patriarchy. (Sound familiar? It's not that different from the Muslim view, is it?) That's a cultural holdover from patriarchal Christianity, and while it's fortunately doing a slow (VERY slow) burnout, it's proved too difficult for a lot of women, particularly my generation and older, to move away from. Sexuality and sexual expression is the root cause of a lot of the schisms within Western feminism, with some clinging to the old ideal and others tilting toward freedom and tolerance. I don't see that Muslim feminist culture is any different in that regard. They are now, in many ways, where we were 50 or 100 or 150 years ago, depending on where they are; the religious specifics may be different, but the situation is pretty much the same. Some of them are on to fighting for voting and divorce (or sexual expression, even) and against rape and abuse, others are still stuck debating their version of Bloomers. You just have to look past the bells and whistles to see the similarities.

Amina had lots of support here, but they were the same people you've been arguing with. She had some opposition here, too. So did Sila Sahin- click that link, you'll recognize some names. Where's that support from the people who are so supportive of veiling? Why is only nudity or exposed skin considered patriarchal enough to fight against? Why should our support be directed only to the women who dress or act "properly"? Why are people so determined that the only women "worthy" of concern or support are the ones who follow the proper code of women's dress and behavior- a situation we would never tolerate in our own culture?

That's not women's rights, that's social conservatism. They are oil and water, and do not mix well, not even if you add an egg. Especially if you add an egg.

(going out. if you answer I will respond later)

[BainsBane]

40. the article I linked to wasn't in favor of veiling

Last edited Fri May 3, 2013, 09:52 PM - Edit history (1)

sigh. I'm not really in interested in reading old threads on DU or engage in arguments you've had with someone else. You clearly are fixated on issues of clothing and sexual expression above anything else. That is your right, but everyone isn't going to share those views, not here or in the Muslim world. Those who "are in favor of veiling" defend their rights to choose what to wear, rights you have said they should not have. If they do not dress like you, they cannot be free. I do not see freedom as greater depending on the less clothing one wears. I see nothing liberated about this, for example: http://www.policymic.com/articles/39529/blachman-most-sexist-show-in-history-showcases-unattractive-men-judging-women-s-naked-bodies

It's really an issue of basic respect, whether people here respect women in foreign cultures enough to pay attention to what they care about. The answer to that is obviously no, as you repeated reference to being "in favor of veiling" demonstrates. We are not a country that respects foreign cultures. We are a country that dominates through force, economic might, and cultural imperialism. So I guess it's not so surprising I see that echoed here. I had expected better, but I now know that was wrong of me.

[LadyHawkAZ]

46. But the article I linked to *was* about veiling

from a Muslim woman and feminist, which you claim we ought to be listening to and concerned about. If your only takeaway from everything I just wrote was "but I wasn't talking about veiling", then I think you may have missed my point as well.

[BainsBane]

49. If you want to encourage support

Last edited Sat May 4, 2013, 03:05 PM - Edit history (1)

You should create your own thread rather than entering a subthread on another topic and accusing me of not paying attention to something you can't bother to write an OP about.

There is no law requiring women in Turkey veil. The woman in Turkey received death threats. Evidently that is less important to you than the reason for which she received them. Adria Richards received death threats too and her crime was believing she had the right to work in an environment free from discrimination. And we had so-called feminists on this board celebrating her being fired. So called feminists on this board lecture rape victims about not wearing appropriate clothing, and so-called feminists defend male members who insist women don't really mean no when they say they don't want to have sex. People say all kinds of stuff. I'm not interesting in indulging your personal grudges with other members here. That is your fight, not mine, particularly when you won't make an effort to understand their arguments.

Women in Iran under the Shah were assaulted for wearing veils, as have been women in France in recent years. You also completely ignored the point in the other thread that Muslim headscarves cover not more than ordinary designer scarves worn by non-Muslim French women. The only difference in the two is the one signals a religious and ethnic identity that the French and many Americans despise.

The only view of Muslim women that you appear interested in are as victims. You consistently refuse to grant them the same respect you demand for sex workers in this country. The Egyptian women I referenced are protesting sexual assault. They protest sexist comments by government officials because they recognize such language is connected to subjugation of women. Here people routinely trivialize that sort of activism. Many Muslim women do not share your obsession with veiling because it is not obligatory in Egypt, Turkey, Indonesia, and most Muslim countries. Yet some choose to veil, despise the fact you insist they dress only as you approve.

[Honeycombe8]

45. I didn't see those posts.

But my first thought is...to us here in this country, those acts don't seem like "protests" against anything. They didn't really do anything or even say much. Which goes to show you how weak women are in that country, I guess.

And there doesn't seem to be much interest in DU about women's rights around the world. I care about it, so I've noticed that's a subject that doesn't generate a lot of responses. But I will continue reading and posting about it. It's important.

[BainsBane]

48. They don't seem like real protests?

Last edited Sat May 4, 2013, 04:54 AM - Edit history (1)

Did you read the article? How is that not a protest?


http://dam.alarabiya.net/images/24b75cd4-c858-4bb2-8547-dba8ab1dd8a0/600/338/1?x=0&y=0

or this?




They only brought down a fucking dictatorship, one that our government had been subsidizing for decades. Yeah, they don't have the power to engage in real protest. Unfucking real.

[closeupready]

15. Meanwhile, the US has never had a female president.

[Blue_In_AK]

16. Indeed.

The United States as a whole is rather myopic as to its own flaws.

[BainsBane]

19. Muslim countries which have had female heads of state

Pakistan, Bangladesh (two women as prime ministers), Turkey, Kosovo, Kyrgyzstan (Roza Otunbayeva is not only a female president of a Muslim nation, she is an atheist. When has that happened in the US?), Indonesia, and Senegal, while 1/3 of Egypt's parliament is currently comprised of women.

Others feel free to add additional names and places you know.

[closeupready]

23. Yep; yet, Americans lecture, as if from on high,

having gender non-discrimination wisdom to impart to 'those savages'. LOL

[BainsBane]

29. yes

and if I point anything like that out I'm accused of sanctioning stoning of women to death.

[redqueen]

30. It is interesting how that works. nt

[Turborama]

28. It looks like Megawati is going to try again next year, too.

2014 General election
On 24. February 2012, Megawati distanced herself from polls that placed her as a top contender for the Indonesian presidential election, 2014. Megawati, still Chair of PDI-P, appealed to her party at a gathering in Yogyakarta to focus on PDI-P's current priorities. Nonetheless, a domain name appears to have been registered in her name. On December 27, 2012 the daily edition of the Jakarta Post hinted at a possible collaboration in the 2014 general election between the families of Megawati and President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono and their political parties, her Indonesian Democratic Party of Struggle (PDI-P) and his Democratic Party respectively.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megawati_Sukarnoputri#2014_General_election

[Honeycombe8]

43. That's a far cry from executing a woman for getting raped.

Which is what happens in some muslim countries.

[closeupready]

47. Yet, THEIR women have climbed higher summits.

That's a paradox, isn't it.

[supernova]

17. About that "democracy" thing

Given the answers to other questions in the survey (do women have the right to divorce, should females obey men, and should traditional dress be optional) I really have to wonder if there is an understanding, in the full context of that term as we in the west define it, of the word "democracy."

It seems the only muslims who get what "democracy" means in practical day to day terms are Indians/Pakistani and US Muslims. Or am I reading that wrong?

Overall, muslims in the rest of the world come off much more conservative than we westerners.

One of those things we always knew, but it's nice to have it quantified.

[BainsBane]

20. I imagine they do understand democracy differently from us

but I have to question how well we understand the term, since it has been US justification for war, coups, and propping up dictatorships around the world. Some cases in which the US invoked the term democracy to support war, coup or dictatorship include: Iraq, Iran, Guatemala, Brazil, Nicaragua, Cuba, Argentina, Chile, Indonesia, the Dominican Republic, Honduras, Paraguay, and Vietnam. This is a partial list of just what comes to the top of my head.

[Turborama]

25. Yes, you're reading it wrong

Pakistan scored really low in the questions you cite, and India isn't even in there.

Did you mean Indonesia, the 3rd largest democracy in the world? http://mondediplo.com/2010/11/07indonesia

[Honeycombe8]

44. I've heard it said by "experts" on tv numerous times...the middle east can never be

democratic in the sense that the west is. It's not part of their history or culture or whatever. It would be a different kind of democracy, is what they say.

I'm thinking what they mean by democracy is that the MEN get to vote for their leaders, but they cannot envision the leaders not having authoritarian rule of some sort, that religion is part of the government, or that women would fully participate or have the same rights as men (or any minority...they wouldn't have the concept of individual freedom...that is against their religion).

[Luminous Animal]

26. I like this OP a lot. Thanks!