With fifth-grade test now revealed, New York's tougher new reading exams set students up to fail

[proud2BlibKansan]

With fifth-grade test now revealed, New York's tougher new reading exams set students up to fail, critics warn

If you think you’re smarter than a fifth-grader, consider yourself lucky you don’t have to take this exam.

A concerned educator leaked the Daily News a copy of a new, more challenging state reading exam for fifth-graders, and it’s as much of a doozy as it is controversial.

It’s full of long, dense, off-the-wall nonfiction passages on making wind tunnels, soil formation and studying whales. There are two short stories, both set overseas. And there’s a vague selection from a poem about loneliness that students must interpret before choosing among four answers that contain two arguably correct selections.

Students got 90 minutes to complete the 32-page test, which contained 42 questions based on six written passages.

The News asked testing experts, teachers and parents to analyze the test, which state and city education officials have kept under lock and key. Everyone who saw it was left dumbfounded by the killer questions.

“You might as well just put ‘failure to students’ at the top of the exam,” said Tracy Woodall, a stay-at-home mom whose son is a fifth-grader at Public School 1 in the Bronx. “There’s no way they’re going to pass this.”


Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/controversial-state-reading-exam-revealed-article-1.1333768#ixzz2SKYTpTfH

[gopiscrap]

1. My wife is a fifth grade teacher

in a tough area of town and she says the district doesn't give a shit about anything but pr and the ability to score on the test to get money

[proud2BlibKansan]

2. I have no doubt that's true

[femmocrat]

3. Of course the results will be used to evaluate teachers!

I teach fifth grade art. Some of my students don't even know their addresses or phone numbers. They are setting these children up to fail.

[proud2BlibKansan]

5. Some kindergarteners come to school not knowing their NAME

Mom has called him Junior and never told him his name is actually Robert.

Happens all the time.

And of course they also don't know their phone number or address.

[Honeycombe8]

6. But if a fifth grader doesn't know his own phone number, SHOULDN'T he fail?

I mean, you don't give him a pass because, well, he doesn't know anything, so pass him, that's the kind thing to do?

If he can't read, he should fail, shouldn't he? I don't see that the teachers can do much about it, though. I view it as a parenting problem.

The mother in the article saying her kid can't pass that....I wonder why her reaction wasn't that he can't pass it right now, but she's going to see to it that her kid gets cracking on the books and starts reading every night, and she'll have a short discussion with him every night on what he read. She can still think and say the test is too advanced, but that doesn't let her off the hook for pushing her child to do his best.

[femmocrat]

7. Only if we are requiring knowing phone numbers in order to pass!

I was using that as an example of the huge gap between reality and expectations. Early reading does start at home and in that sense is a parental responsibility. So is seeing that kids do their homework and study for tests. By fifth grade, it's kind of late to start! Better late than never, though.

As to retaining kids.... that is a complex problem. How many times should we retain them before we have 15-year-olds in elementary school? IMO, it's appropriate to keep a kindergarten or first grader another year, but the older ones should be promoted with remediation. I really think that requiring students to pass these unrealistic high-stakes exams will result in more drop-outs. Of course, that can be used to punish the schools too!

[roody]

8. Have you seen the test?

And you better know what onomatopoeia is in 3rd grade.

[reACTIONary]

12. Some 5th graders do know...

...onomatopoeia is. Most of them probably don't, but you need a number of difficult questions, ABOVE grade level to be able to differentiate students at the higher end of the scale. Otherwise, you get large numbers of kids scoring at 98, 99 percent. If 25% of the kids score at 98%, you can't differentiate that group.

[joeglow3]

16. Exactly

The test isn't just to see if everyone can pass a minimum level.

[Fumesucker]

22. Then you're trying to measure two different things with one test

If you are going to use the test for minimum competence it should not have a lot of well above grade level questions in it, if it does then test taking strategy is much more important and some kids are going to have better test taking strategies than others. You're not testing to see if kids are good at test taking strategy, you're testing to see if they absorbed enough of the curriculum presented to them.

What else the kids know beyond minimum competence should be on a different test that does not involve pressure.

[kiva]

47. This is an important point.

There is no point in having students take a battery of tests to identify all of the levels, one exam that looks at all levels of ability makes more sense.

[roody]

79. Differentiating kids. Exactly.

It is not about which kids mastered their grade level standards. What is the purpose of differentiating kids?

[Honeycombe8]

84. They don't need to know % of kids performing above grade level, at grade level,

and below grade level?

[roody]

100. I am a teacher. I know where the kids

are academically.

[Honeycombe8]

101. You are not alone in the world. Others need to know, as well. nt

[roody]

104. Then create some authentic assessments.

[reACTIONary]

91. To understand...

... who needs help advancing, who doesn't, and what level course is appropriate next.

Aggregated, also allows evaluation of the over all course of study to help design and focus the curriculum and appropriately allocate resources. Do we need more reading teachers, or math teachers? Should we be adding more AP level courses, or more basic level courses?

It can help to compare various districts and regions to ensure that educational resources go where they are needed.

It also enables longitudinal studies that analyze and compare development over a long period of time.

You can't do all that with a test that returns just a pass/fail or has 50 to 75% all getting the same score.

[roody]

99. Sounds like you are in the business.

Do you think resources are going where needed? I proctor these damn tests. I assure you that one third of the kids just fill in bubbles with little thought, not just the low academically ones. Teachers with reasonably sized classes know what their students need.

[reACTIONary]

107. Do I think resources are going where needed?

Nope. That's why I think we need testing, standardized across jurisdictions and over long periods of time.

A teacher in a reasonably sized class somewhere in the Midwest has no clue what students on either coast or in the deep south or in the neighboring urban area need. We are not going to have a world class national educational system that serves our diverse population over our dispersed geography without standardized testing.

[roody]

110. Please disclose any financial ties with the

testing industry. I am a public school teacher.

[reACTIONary]

114. LOL, That's funny...

...let's not discuss issues or facts, let's look for hidden motives, secrete plots, and conspiracies. "No one could possibly disagree with me or have a differing point of view unless they are being paid by my enemies"

[roody]

115. Glad it's funny. We still don't know.

[reACTIONary]

117. If you want to set aside facts and reasoned opinion...

...and engage in childish innuendo, you will have to count me out. I'm not participating.

[roody]

119. Do you have a financial interest in the

testing industry?

[reACTIONary]

120. No. Not even indirectly. So now what? (nt)

[joeglow3]

121. A friend of ours recently moved to Florida

She was literally in tears at how crappy their schools are. The used public schools here and found that every school they looked at was waaay behind. They started looking at private schools and found that their material was not much better.

She felt awful saying anything to their new friends, because they all think their schools are great (she hasn't said anything). They did meet another couple who moved their from the midwest and they came to the same conclusion.

Lets be honest here, the government is not going to allocate billions of dollars annually based on what a few parents are saying. Realisitically, people would sandbag so that their schools would get more funding.

There has to be an objective means that the government can control to assess where the funds are needed the most.

[msanthrope]

33. My 3rd grader knows what it is. I asked for examples of words and she

said "buzzing" and "Slytherin."

This is not a difficult concept, taught well.

[roody]

80. What is the purpose of knowing it?

[Honeycombe8]

85. Are you asking what the purpose of knowledge is?

Well, if you have to ask that...then you probably don't believe in education at all?

[roody]

103. No. Recognizing onomatopoeia

has not improved my life.

[joeglow3]

122. No, but it is an indicator of someone's education level.

As my children age, I can clearly see their vocabulary expand. My 10 year old told me he was being facetious. My 4 and 7 year old would never use that word.

Looking at that as a single issue, then no it does not tell a whole lot. But, when you have multiple issues, it can give a clear indication. This is not a difficult concept.

[Codeine]

127. For someone who claims to be an educator

you have a weird relationship with the notion of knowledge.

BTW, I asked my third grader what onomatopoeia is; she answered correctly without hesitation.

[Dorian Gray]

126. Are you serious?

What's the purpose of knowing any word?

To be able to communicate.

Knowledge.

[roody]

128. I hear so many people discussing onomatopoeia!

[WCGreen]

62. I'm a gonna pee on you...

Is what we called it in 5th grade while giggling and getting in trouble...

[Honeycombe8]

86. LOL. We weren't allowed to talk that way...

my dad would've busted our butts but good (when he got home from his drinkin' and carousin')...but I enjoyed the off color jokes of some of the other kids.

[Honeycombe8]

83. It depends on what's in the books they studied that year.

I studied a lot of things in books when I was in school that I have now forgotten.

I saw part of the test, and I thought it was weird. I don't know if I got the answers right because the article didn't give the answers. Since there's a question on wind tunnels, and that's an unusual thing to expect adults, much less children, to know, I'm guessing they studied it. That was a 5th grade test.

Look, the test may be hard. But the teacher poster said some 5th grader didn't know his own address or phone number, so she used that as the basis to say that because of that, he couldn't possibly pass this test. So I responded by saying, well, if those two things are connected, then he SHOULD fail if he doesn't know his address and ph #, if he needs to know those things and was told to.

The difficulty of the test could be solved by grading on the curve. Grading for the whole city, I guess, though, not just that class or school. Wherever they give that same test. If it's statewide or whatever.

[roody]

106. They (the testing industry) is never

going to grade on a curve. Also, the ideal with a test would be to retake it after learning more. The kids never see the test again. The following year the following grade's test is still unattainable. I teach poor kids, by the way.

[pnwmom]

18. So what is the message if he tries his best and she tries her best to help him

and he still fails?

The message is that he tried his best and he still wasn't smart enough.

That's the problem with giving a test that is way beyond most of the target group, no matter what they do. If they're given a test that's supposed to be at 5th grade level, but really isn't, it makes almost everyone feel impossibly behind. It doesn't increase motivation to work hard -- it lowers it.

[Honeycombe8]

88. People fail at things. That's an important life lesson, don't you think?

When he grows up and gets a job, he will fail at excelling at something. It's inevitable. We all do. People who don't fail never try to do anything or push their boundaries.

However his parents decide to deal with his failing is their business. But I believe he should fail, if he's not where he's supposed to be. He should NOT be passed on. It does a child no favor to pass him on to the next grade, when he can't handle the lower grade. It's setting him up for a lifetime of failure and disappointment. It's also not fair to the other kids in class..the teacher having to give him more attention than should be necessary, when she could be concentrating on other things.

You don't know that the test goes beyong most of the target group. The results aren't in yet, are they?

How a child handles failing a test depends on how the parents handle it. A pep talk, special attention, making sure he does homework every night, summer school, hiring another student to tutor him (for cheap)...whatever. But we all have to learn to deal with failure.

If he can't pass the entrance test for football, he will FAIL to get on the team. Most boys in school FAIL to get on the team. They seem to go on with their lives, excelling in other things.

[pnwmom]

95. The article says that the test was written at the mid 6th grade level, which is a full year

ahead of when these fifth graders took the test. And that also means it includes questions at even higher levels.

So that is how I drew the conclusion that the test is beyond the majority of kids in the target group.

Yes, all people have to learn to deal with failure, but I don't think it's the business of SCHOOLS to train them to deal with failure by subjecting them to inappropriate tests. It's the business of schools to teach them content, and to teach them to learn. And positive methods have been proven to be much more successful than negative ones.

[Honeycombe8]

98. And it SHOULD have questions at higher levels. A lot of kids test at higher grade levels...

I did, as did MANY of the kids I went to school with, and we were no geniuses, let me tell you. (I edit this to say that we kids tested above grade levels in certain subjects...with me, it was literature, reading, writing...for others, it would be math or history.)

As another poster said, you have to have advanced questions in order to reflect those who are ahead of their grade, so that you can know the % of who is AT that grade level, and the % of those who are below grade level.

Depends on the purpose of the test. Are they trying to determine which kids are performing at the minimum level required (their grade level) and how many are behind? Or are they trying to determine at what grade level each kid is? Two different things. If they ONLY want to know are the kids meeting the minimum, then there's no need for higher grade level questions. But it makes sense that they would want to know how many are exceeding their grade level, as well.

Don't sell the kids short. They might surprise you. Even the hard questions...believe it or not, some kids are going to get those answers right. Someone should know that, and know who they are, and how they got to that level. High IQs? Or was it regular study and homework time each night? Or an ability to focus? Or enjoyment of learning? Or good home environment?

Maybe this is part of the problem with our education system...that some teachers just don't believe the kids are up to the task.

[pnwmom]

108. I'm not objecting to SOME questions being more difficult, for the reasons you note.

I'm objecting to a test being used on all kids in the middle of 5th grade, that is designed at the mid-6th grade level -- if that test is supposed to be evaluating their understanding of 5th grade material and/or has any potentially negative consequences for either teachers or students.

[Honeycombe8]

112. I see. Well, I agree with you on that.

I don't see how they could determine that someone is performing at his grade level if the entire test is for a higher grade level. Now, if they can, that would be a different matter. It wouldn't matter what grade level the test is IF the results can show if a kid is performing at his grade level. But I don't see how that's possible, any more than using a test that is for a grade level below.

[lunasun]

109. yes plus say you have 10 kids in 5th scoring 99% all the time all in your class tests

Now the tests will show more detail
the test is broader and standardized so you will see a more detailed results
maybe some kids that were 99% are now in the 90%
a few at 95%
but there is now only 1 of the 10 that remains at 99%. They have a need possibly for more AP that the others do not
However that can not be determined when they are all "bunched up" at the end of the test's limits
it is hard to give individual assessment
i do not see how any one really fails....below average yes
but that is not a fail that is identifying a problem

I in no way endorse test results being tied to a teacher economically or their rating -that is a fail
and often causes teaching to the test
the worst of all scenarios for the entire class range imo


but all my kids fit this mold and our state's new exam will give me more info on what they really are capable of without limits on the test.

As for the magic formula of why they (and you) scored so high.....well...that is another long debate !!!!

[pnwmom]

125. If that's the information they need there's no reason to put a whole class

through a test that wasn't designed for that grade level.

If they want to get more detail about the kids in the top 1%, or 10%, or whatever, they can offer a harder test to the kids in that group.

In fact, that's what our district did when my daughter was in 5th grade. They offered her the option of taking a test designed for 8th graders, and she happily took it. She was a kid who actually liked tests. But with some equally bright kids, testing is a stressful, non-productive experience.

So, I think it's fine if kids at the top like yours are offered the chance to take more challenging tests, but there's no good reason to REQUIRE that a whole class of 5th graders take a test at the 8th grade level, or even the 6th grade level.

[joeglow3]

123. Why do you share the results with them?

Our son has done a few of these. The schools shares the results with the parents and it gives us ideas of where we can focus more. The students are not shown the tests. By the time the results come out, that have moved on to other things and don't care about it, unless the parent makes a big deal of it.

[ananda]

4. Ugh - more destruction of the public commons in the offing I see.

..

[roody]

9. That concerned educator is very brave.

[reformist2]

10. The level of distrust of teachers to evaluate students is out of control!

[joeglow3]

17. As is the level of distrust of administrators to evaluate teachers.

[HiPointDem]

43. test designed by minions of bill gates.

[joeglow3]

61. What???

I agree with the previous poster that we fail to trust teachers to evaluate students but added that also fail to trust principals/administrators to evaluate teachers.

[HiPointDem]

63. what do you mean, 'what???" common core is a project pushed, designed and funded mostly

by the bill and melinda gates foundation. the tests under discussion are common core tests.

http://www.google.com/search?q=common%20core%20gates%20foundation&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.45960087,d.cGE&biw=1024&bih=582&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&sa=N&tab=iw&ei=i2-FUaNbjOqLAomKgZgN

"The tests, designed to better prepare students for college and careers, are aligned with a Common Core curriculum students will not begin receiving until September."

[joeglow3]

81. I am saying part of this is because teachers claim they cannot be evaluated

I don't know how many times I have argued with people here who advocate against administrators evaluating teachers. If you cannot have their supervisors evaluate them, how else do you do it?

[HiPointDem]

82. teachers do not claim they cannot be evaluated. they claim that the evaluations being promoted

1) do not fairly evaluate them; 2) are actually designed to fire them en masse and privatize education; 3) are a waste of time and actively harmful to students' interests.

[proud2BlibKansan]

92. Personally, that distrust is based on my own experience.

I've seen and worked for far more incompetent administrators than decent ones.

[joeglow3]

94. Sadly, I work with people who say that of teachers

I don't agree with them

However, if you remove the means that every other profession in the world uses to evaluate their employees, you get stuck with shit like standardized testing.

[Pisces]

11. Listen, if 5th graders can't make good inference guesses at this age, you have a problem. I just

Last edited Sat May 4, 2013, 02:14 PM - Edit history (1)

asked my 1st grader the questions and they had great picks based off of reasoning. I would like to see the entire test, but this is the
problem. If the answer is not staring them in the face, if they can't memorize rote answers they don't know what to do? Reasoning is no longer being taught?

As a parent I would be more interested in the thought process the kids use to derive the answers.

I think that ranking the teachers based off of the kids scores is what is really at issue. Everyone is more concerned about themselves and not the kids or their development.

[reACTIONary]

15. + 10 (nt)

[pnwmom]

19. I believe you mean "rote answers."

Luckily, this isn't a test.

[Pisces]

21. Yes I meant rote. Oops

[HiPointDem]

44. lol. i'm sure your first grader did better....

[DevonRex]

20. I agree.

I'm sort of baffled at the reaction now that I've seen the questions. So thanks. I probably wouldn't have even read the article if you hadn't commented the way you did.

[pnwmom]

24. The test doesn't care if they made a "great pick off of reasoning." No one is there to talk

with the children to find out what their reasoning is. All that matters is that the child picks the "right" answer -- even when no answer is precisely right. Even very bright children can have trouble picking the best answer from a list of poorly chosen options.

For example:

QUESTION 2
From the article “What are Wind Tunnels?” by David Hitt:
The statement that “NASA also works with others that need to use wind tunnels” most strongly suggests that:
l Many different groups are developing space shuttles
l NASA hopes to buy vehicles made by other agencies
l NASA has the largest wind tunnels in existence
l Many companies do not have their own wind tunnels

Based on the limited information available, none of the choices are precisely correct. The last choice is the closest, I think, but there is nothing in the original statement that implies that "many" companies don't have their own wind tunnels. All it really implies is that "some" "others" (not necessarily companies) might not have their own. (Except maybe they do have their own, and their own isn't large enough. A bright child could easily get bogged down in this type of question.)

[Pisces]

27. Once the test is administered no one goes over the the correct answers and why they were correct?

Maybe this takes place the following year as they prepare for the new test. I can't give you the easy answer, but I do know that
we are raising children that expect everything to be easy and the answers to be spoon fed to them. We need to have children that
are reasoning, inferring and coming to the correct conclusions without having memorized an answer. They need critical thinking
skills. What amazes me is that we are afraid to expect this from our kids in 5th grade. They are about to be faced with serious adult problems, ( sex, drugs, etc) without critical thinking how do we expect them to navigate reality. There is no manual for life with all
of the answers. They need to learn to think for themselves.

From the few examples shown in the article I don't see the problem. I would like to see the entire test to determine how difficult
it is. I would use my first grader as a barometer.

[pnwmom]

31. No, no one does. And the tests aren't made public. Apparently, your first grader is your oldest?

Your idealism is showing. Good luck.

But how is a teacher supposed to explain to students how to answer that wind tunnel question "correctly" when none of the answers is actually correct?

There was nothing in the information provided to suggest that MANY companies don't have their own wind tunnels. So a student is left to choose the "least bad" answer, not the correct answer. And all too many test questions are written that way, based on examples I've seen over the years.

[Pisces]

35. You just proved my point. In life you have to sometimes pick the least bad answer. Things aren't

always spelled out for you. The last answer on the wind tunnel question is the one I would chose based on the phrase


works with others that need to use wind tunnels.

You can infer if they need to use wind tunnels they work with NASA because they don't have any but NEED them.

I think this is a problem because they are tying teacher ratings to the test. There is no other reason for the outrage. These
are comprehension questions simple as that.

[pnwmom]

39. It's not a question of having things spelled out for you.

It's a question of LOGIC and PRECISION. The same quality that might make a student a future lawyer or scientist, for example, might make it frustrating to choose the fourth option, since there's nothing in the information provided that would support the idea that MANY companies don't have their own wind tunnels.

I always did well on the tests, because I was able to think like a test-writer, I suppose. But I have known many gifted people who did not. My local newspaper once printed some sample "word questions" from a 7th grade math test, and the two engineering PhD's in the room with me insisted the questions couldn't be answered because of how they were worded. I told them to pretend they were taking the test and pick something. They chose the "incorrect" answer and I guessed the "correct" one. Sometimes students get wrong answers on these tests because they don't know enough, sometimes they know too much, and sometimes the tests are just poorly designed.

Here's another example of a poorly designed question: it was a vocabulary comprehension question about the word "camouflage." It was something about toothpicks in the grass. Well, I have a color blind son who can't see green and I instantly knew that the question wouldn't work for him -- and the almost 10% of other boys who are! So I called up the State and found out that no one had ever screened the questions to make sure they were appropriate for color-blind kids. Of course not! And I bet they still don't.

[jeff47]

129. And if you were testing adults, you'd have a point.

These are 5th graders taking a standardized test.

While finding the "least bad" answer is a decent test-taking strategy, the fact that the students are resorting to that means the test is very poorly written.

If you are going to force kids to take a "high stakes" test, then the stakes on the test authors need to be about 1000x higher. And they simply aren't. Bad questions litter all these high stakes tests, and continue to do so for years.

[JVS]

132. Yeah. The only thing the statement implied was a need for the tunnels.

Not the size of the tunnels, nor use of the tunnels, nor the intentions of NASA to purchase.

I wouldn't tie teacher ratings to this because what you're depending on is not really a teachable skill. It depends on being able to comprehend and discern. But I have no problem with using the tests to determine how sharp the various knives in the drawer are. Especially since the tests have so many questions. The number of questions isn't just designed make the test last a certain amount of time. It's in order to see how reliably the taker of the test can comprehend and infer things. It also means that if a child persistently draws false conclusions about things there are some comprehension problems.

[roody]

116. The tests are top secret. The

kids do not get a second chance unless they repeat the grade.

[roody]

105. Even if the kid can infer well,

their inference may not be one of the multiple choices.

[reACTIONary]

13. The test is "calibrated for the 'middle of sixth grade'"....

Aaron Pallas, a testing expert at Columbia University, ran the new fifth-grade exam though a computer analysis program and found that it was actually calibrated for the “middle of sixth grade.” And that’s compared with older fifth-grade reading exams that were most appropriate for fourth-graders.

So they upgraded the test so it's a bit higher (middle of one grade ahead) instead of a bit lower (one grade behind). What's wrong with that? A test that is LOWER than expectations can't differentiate average students from much better students. So it isn't diagnostic for those students.

Typically a test will contain questions that range from a lot easier than the average ability through a lot harder. They put the easier questions at the beginning of the test so everyone works their way through those first and don't encounter the more advanced questions until latter, after they have had a fair crack at the easier ones. In this way the test can differentiate the full range of students.

And there is something wrong with expecting kids to be able to read, understand, and, maybe, enjoy poetry?! How shocking! Kids reading poetry!!

[Pisces]

14. I agree with you. I think the problem is linking it to the teacher ratings. Everyone wants CYA. This

is not about the children it is about the teachers. Kids should be able to infer and make some abstract connections. Do we want
kids who can only memorize exact answers provided for them? I think we are fine dumbing down certain segments of the population.

[HiPointDem]

45. the test is going to be used to fire more teachers and close & privatize more schools. full period.

that is what it was designed to do. it has nothing to do with kids being able to infer, and at any rate, inference isn't taught by testing.

[reACTIONary]

48. A test that asks...

..what the poet meant by “And your brain stops its wrinkles / And is peaceful as a windless pond.” is designed to fire more teachers and close schools?

How do you infer that?

[HiPointDem]

53. i don't infer it, i know it. and how do you 'infer' that the content of a single test question has

anything to do with the political uses for which the tests were created?

[reACTIONary]

87. One might think that ...

... the purpose of a test would influence its contents. The example content is quite reasonable and what I would expect of a instrument designed to test the reading ability and comprehension of students.

And just how does testing the reading ability and comprehension of students add up to a nefarious plot to fire teachers and destroy public education?

[Pisces]

55. I think if we took away the paranoia of firings and privatization away no one would care about this

test. Anything new introduced is always followed by they same argument that they want to fire teachers. All parents want is a good
education for their children. This bickering and squabbling over the right test and what questions should be asked isn't helping the
children. They are constantly lost in the argument of who gets to keep or lose their job. The kids are the ones who continue
to get the short end of the stick.

When I went to school parents were not involved and now they are at the school 24/7. My mom rarely went to the school. We had no parent volunteers, just a few paid aides that are no longer available. At the school my child attends there are always parents on campus. Parents scrutinize everything the school does. We will see what happens, but the truth is that only are certain portion of our
population are lacking. It is the poorer sections and everyone knows it. The parents have no time to volunteer and no time or education to help their children. It always seems to be a circular firing squad where education is concerned.

The parents will continue to get frustrated opt for whatever is best for their children instead of what is best for the greater good.

[HiPointDem]

58. 1) it's not paranoia. 2) people *would* care, as the tests & test prep are crowding out everything

else, both in terms of time and in terms of money.

yes, it is the poor, and the poor are growing. and that is because of the machinations of the same class of people who are pushing this testing/privatization agenda.

they don't give a fuck about the greater good.

[MineralMan]

23. Back in the 1950s, when I was in elementary school,

we had standardized tests, too. I can't remember which grades we took them in, but I remember taking at least three of them during elementary school. All of the tests included questions that were at least two grade levels more difficult than what was expected for the group taking the test. I know that, because my scores were consistently two grade levels ahead. I was a smart kid.

The difference, apparently, is in how those test scores are used today. We took those tests, and our placement in classes the next year were partly determined by the scores. They already had different tracks for students, even in elementary school. The kids who scored above grade level were placed in classes designed to push those kids. The ones who scored below grade level were placed in classes designed to teach at a pace that would improve their skills.

This was in a small rural town in California. There were just over 100 kids in my high school graduating class. We had three different tracks throughout elementary and through high school. Kids were moved between tracks, based on their scores on the standardized tests each year, as appropriate. Almost nobody failed. Everyone graduated from high school. We had no drop-outs that I know of, and most of the kids who started first grade when I did were in my graduating class. It was a small town, and most kids went through all of the grades together. Few moved away from that town and few moved to that town during those years.

[pnwmom]

25. If everybody in your class graduated, then the likelihood is that there were some students

with dyslexia or other learning difficulties among them who would have more trouble graduating today. A lot of this move toward constant testing began because a significant people in older generations had managed to graduate from high school without achieving competency in reading and basic math.

[PDJane]

26. They are still going to graduate without knowing much about math or english........

but they'll be good at taking tests.

I saw this when I was tutoring. Multiple-choice questions and teaching to the test don't actually allow kids to learn what they will need to know. I know kids who aced the test but couldn't put together a paragraph of grammatically correct sentences.


It's not the most brilliant idea those in government have ever had.

[MineralMan]

30. I'm not fond of the current concept, either.

It's a recipe for failure.

[reACTIONary]

49. You don't think that knowing something about math...

...helps you take a math test? If knowing math won't get you a good score on a math test, what does?

[PDJane]

57. You can know enough to take the test.

But when you need math, really need something like algebra, you may not understand it enough to use it.

[reACTIONary]

89. Algebra? There's a test for that. Calculus also. (nt)

[PDJane]

93. You're missing the point, and I'm tired. Never mind.

[jeff47]

130. How 'bout a history example

A test will show that the kid knows Columbus's first voyage was in 1492.

That's not learning. That's wrote memorization. Learning is being able to come up with reasons why it wasn't 1392 or 1592. And there aren't going to be neat, short, multiple choice reasons for that.

Being able to pass those tests has nothing to do with education and learning. It's all about memorization.

And if our lives revolved around filling out tests, that might be worthwhile. But no job I've ever had involved taking tests every day. Instead, they involved taking the knowledge I had learned and synthesizing it together into making new stuff. Which are the kinds of jobs we keep being told are important in the "New Economy".

And instead of preparing kids for that, we're shoving test booklets in front of them.

[PDJane]

131. Clear and succinct. Thank you.

[MineralMan]

28. Yes, there were some students with learning difficulties.

I knew them, too. The school did its best with them, and actually did a pretty good job. I was one of the kids who got assigned to individually tutor some of the kids who were having trouble. I was pretty good at it, too. They had an active peer tutoring system set up, and the kids, like me and a dozen others, who were breezing through high school got assigned students to tutor. I enjoyed that experience, and found that I had the ability to find ways to help individual kids who were having difficulty. One of the kids I helped had dyslexia, although I doubt that was identified clearly. I just knew that he mixed up letters when reading and writing. So, he and I figured out a way to improve his skills, and he improved his abilities. Our method was for him to work backwards through each word. For some reason, he got the letters right that way. We tried lots of stuff, but that worked best. He was a very good friend of mine, too.

Did some kids graduate without having the full set of skills? Yes. But only those who would never develop that set of skills. The school did its best with all of the kids, but didn't keep those who couldn't learn from graduating. In my class of 100, that was probably four or five, and we all knew who they were. We didn't think any less of them, but we knew who they were. They were still part of the class.

It was an excellent school system, led by an administration with a clear vision.

[pnwmom]

34. I wish all schools were set up like yours then -- but it is not considered acceptable

anymore to let students graduate who haven't "met the bar" in both reading and math.

[MineralMan]

37. Yes. Each child has different abilities to learn.

Some, like me, can't be stopped from learning, no matter how hard anyone tries. Others can learn much less, due to a wide variety of reasons. The goal, it seems to me, needs to be to assist every child to learn as much as is possible, with success being measured according to each student's capabilities.

Not every student can learn Calculus in high school. Those who can should be presented with it. Maximizing each student's individual capacity should be the goal, not teaching every student to a single standard. That can only lead to a steady decrease in the general standard, and in achievement across the board.

That's what I fear is going to be the result of the current direction in education. Instead of identifying needs and meeting those needs, it's far too easy to establish a single standard and call that adequate.

[pnwmom]

40. +1000

[HiPointDem]

77. establishing a single standard is exactly what is being done, and it started with bush. obama

is pushing that to even a higher degree.

and the aim is to privatize education. it's clearly not to educate children to their best capacity, as you admit by implication.

[Pisces]

29. I think it won't matter what test is used. Everyone will complain an everyone will have a different

opinion. I think it has become a sideline hobby to disagree with any changes that are implemented. It feels like doing nothing is
what the majority want, yet doing nothing is getting us less than stellar students in certain areas.

There are no simple answers and saying we need to eliminate poverty is a utopian idea that is forever thrown out during these arguments. I will side with the people trying to do something to help the children become critical thinkers.

[MineralMan]

32. I looked at the sample questions. Without having access to

the reading samples, it's a little difficult to judge, but I'm sure I know which answers were correct, by reversing the process and trying to figure out what probably was in the samples. I'm sure I'd have aced the test in 5th grade. It's not really that dissimilar to the type of reading tests we took back in the 1950s. Those were set up in much the same way, with reading samples, followed by questions that tested not only your comprehension but your reasoning abilities, as well.

I'd like to see the actual reading passages and the entire list of questions. I expect it's a pretty normal sort of reading test.

[HiPointDem]

46. yes. and now kids have 3-5 times *more* standardized tests, and more in the pipeline.

[MineralMan]

50. But, they are not using the results from those tests

in ways that benefit the students. That's the difference. They're using them in all the wrong ways.

[HiPointDem]

51. no, they're using them to privatize education, and they don't care about your opinion on the

matter.

[MineralMan]

52. I doubt that you care about my opinion either.

It's not an opinion that matches anything in today's educational system. And you and I have clashed about that in the past. So, I'm not really interested in re-hashing old discussions of education with you.

The School Bells are ringing, but nobody's getting taught. My opinion of why that is is likely not the same as yours.

[HiPointDem]

54. it matches many people's ideas in today's education system. it just doesn't match the opinions

of those in control, i.e. big capital.

plenty of people are getting taught in today's education system as well. the idea that they're not has been relentlessly cultivated by the same persons pushing the testing agenda.

[MineralMan]

56. As I said, I'm not going to discuss educational philosophy with you.

There is no point.

[HiPointDem]

59. then why did you respond to my initial post, since there's no point? the only 'philosophy'

driving what's happening in education currently is the philosophy of profit and control. and it's not educators driving this train.

[MineralMan]

60. Because I did not notice to whom I was replying.

Believe me, that's the reason.

[HiPointDem]

68. and so why did you just post another comment to one of mine within the last 5 minutes?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2798595

you seem to be picking and choosing which aspects of 'educational philosophy' you are willing to discuss.

just quit posting to my posts.

[MineralMan]

69. Because I chose to do so.

Is there a problem?

[HiPointDem]

71. yes, there is, but i can't say what at DU.

[riverbendviewgal]

36. were the adults able to answer all the questions correctly?

I went to elementary school in the USA. I remember in grade 5 (5th grade) we had a reading comprehension program. We went through different levels and graduated to a new coloured level when we successfully completed each level. We went on our own pace. The teacher could see how we were doing by looking at our tests.

I was lucky as I loved to read (being deaf helps grow that love.) and advanced to the top level before school was out for summer. The colour was purple.

We had tests in other subjects. We worried about passing them. What is so different now?

[pnwmom]

41. I bet you did SRA.

I still remember that.

[HiPointDem]

73. i liked sra. one of the reasons i did was that it was self-directed and the tests weren't for

the official scores. low pressure, self-challenge.

but i also remember that some kids didn't like it. i was a good reader. if my memory is correct, it was some of the poorer readers who didn't like it.

[riverbendviewgal]

90. which helped identify them and for the teacher to give them extra help

I was a good reader too. I loved reading the stories. My last job before retiring was analysis work, which I think SRA helped inspire me to go toward.

[winter is coming]

124. What's so different? The amount of time spent preparing for and taking

standardized tests and the importance attached to the scores. Seems to me I took standardized tests 4 times before high school. There wasn't any prep then. My kid takes the state's "pass or die" test and the Stanford test every year... and they spend weeks doing prep. They even take two practice tests before the state test.

The end result is that they lose a lot of instructional time getting ready for these tests and we probably lose good teachers who happen to have struggling students.

[WinkyDink]

38. "long, dense, off-the-wall nonfiction passages"---EXACTLY WHAT PA'S PSSA WAS/IS!!

As an English teacher who had to administer these "assessments," I WAS APPALLED at both this aspect AND at the complete lack of any fiction, poetry, drama.

All we are....are cogs in the wheel.

[MineralMan]

64. Apparently, this NY test did include fiction and poetry, so

it's not the same thing. As for using non-fiction, why would they not? For most people, non-fiction is what they read primarily. Is that a good or bad thing? I'm not prepared to make that judgment. If the tests only used fiction and poetry, they would be skewed incorrectly, too. The bottom line is that most people deal with non-fiction in most things they read. Everything from school to work is primarily based on the ability to read non-fiction, not fiction.

Reading and comprehending non-fiction is a different skill that reading and comprehending fiction. I write both, and the techniques used are very different, as are the intentions.

Non-fiction represents what most people will read primarily throughout their lives. The NY test includes both. Why would it not?

[WinkyDink]

96. Well, there ya go; I skimmed. BAD teacher!

[HiPointDem]

42. kr. let the firings and school closures commence.

[MineralMan]

65. Education is not primarily a labor issue.

Truly it is not.

[HiPointDem]

66. you said you didn't want to discuss educational philosophy with me, so why are you here?

but since you are: i disagree. education in the US is primarily a "labor issue" in the broad sense.

[MineralMan]

67. Yes, I know you think it is primarily a labor issue.

That's not educational philosophy, though, so I don't mind discussing it. Education is not about the teachers. It is about the students. I remember a thread to that effect that I once posted on DU2. I still hold the same position on that.

Students. Education is about students. If they're learning, it works. If not, it doesn't. It is that simple.

As to why I'm here, it is because I choose to be here. Will that do?

[HiPointDem]

70. whether we're talking teachers or students, education is a labor issue. no, it's not that simple

as 'if they're learning, it works.' not by any means. what are they learning, and not only in the explicit content, but in the organization of education? who is structuring the education they receive, and for what purpose?

education is profoundly a labor issue, because education is how society reproduces itself.

[MineralMan]

72. So you believe. And there's the issue we have.

We will not agree on this. We did not agree before, and we will not agree now. Who loses? The students.

That is not acceptable to me. Making students into pawns in a labor issue is not helping those students in any way, no matter who turning them into pawns.

So, we are at odds on this, and will remain at odds.

[HiPointDem]

74. the students don't lose because you & i disagree. our disagreement doesn't affect students one whit.

and it is capital who's made students pawns in their game, not teachers.

the failure of the so-called 'reforms' to produce any improvement that isn't gamed should be clue 1.
and the failure of the 'reformers' to acknowledge that rather than continue pushing their goals should be clue 2.

[MineralMan]

75. Same argument. WSWS is not a place

I look for discussions on education, frankly. I don't mind if you do, though. We will simply disagree.

[HiPointDem]

76. i don't know what wsws is, and i don't see anything about it in these threads. you can disagree,

but the facts are not with you.

"the failure of the so-called 'reforms' to produce any improvement that isn't gamed should be clue 1.
and the failure of the 'reformers' to acknowledge that rather than continue pushing their goals should be clue 2."

[reACTIONary]

118. +10!!! (nt)

[idwiyo]

78. K&R

[LWolf]

97. I miss question one.

I don't think any of those 4 choices are good answers.

Who among us really ever thought high stakes tests were about somehow improving student learning? We've known all along that we're SUPPOSED to fail.

[senseandsensibility]

102. One thing I am sure of is that

when schools are finally privatized and teachers are no longer state credentialed by the evil gubmint the tests will suddenly be much, much easier for students to pass.

[chervilant]

111. I cannot understand how

so many remain ignorant of the political agendas driving "standardized testing," and the absolute inefficacy of these 'measures' of how well we're 'teaching' our children!

My students (and most of my colleagues) abhor these tests. Students are taught how to take the tests, which involves a lot of rote memorization and very little critical thinking.

And, don't get me started about the cultural biases built into these crappy 'tests'!

I last taught at a community college, where I discovered that the vast majority of our incoming students lacked even the most fundamental math skills--a fact that flies in the face of all those standardized test results for our area high schools, proudly displaying their 'recognized' (or higher) statuses conferred because their students performed so well on their tests. As if!

Our system of education has been co-opted for decades now, intended to create factory fodder and service industry drones. It's past time to recognize this, and rescue our children from a lifetime of ignorance and servitude.