Spanking kids can cause long-term harm

[DemocratSinceBirth]

TORONTO (Reuters) - Spanking children can cause long-term developmental damage and may even lower a child's IQ, according to a new Canadian analysis that seeks to shift the ethical debate over corporal punishment into the medical sphere.

The study, published this week in the Canadian Medical Association Journal, reached its conclusion after examining 20 years of published research on the issue. The authors say the medical finding have been largely overlooked and overshadowed by concerns that parents should have the right to determine how their children are disciplined.


http://www.sun-sentinel.com/health/sns-rt-us-spankingtre8161r2-20120207,0,903633.story

[Lionessa]

1. Well, they offer no indication of how they come to this conclusion, so I have doubts.

Furthermore, a spank (which in my mind is a quick swat on the bum for the tot that once again forgot not to cross a street without looking or slap of an errant hand like one that's reaching for a hot stove) is not the same as "corporal punishment".

My children had a choice with discipline. Either a certain # of swats with a wooden spoon or equal # of days room restriction. My daughter hated to be kept from living her life, so even as early as 4yo she chose swats. My son was more of a loner and a very bony bum, so he chose room restriction.

I think we all need to allow our children to understand some discipline is required, and let them opt to what they feel is best for them in circumstances where immediate response isn't needed as it might be in my above examples. And unfortunately in this day and age with everyone seeming to require two working parents, much of the suggested disciplines simply require too much time and oversight that isn't available. Like trying to keep a 6th grader on room restriction after and before school is a tad difficult when you're not there to assure it.

[Puzzledtraveller]

2. Agreed

Additionally, I have seen the opposite, where the parent(s) never set boundaries on their children and they turned into little terrors, then big ones, then adult ones.

[trumad]

4. So a boundry is created by hitting them...

[kenfrequed]

58. violence tends to teach little...

...save that violence is an accepted means for solving problems and disputes and is a mechanism for expressing your power and authority over another human being.

[Kellerfeller]

65. Actually it teaches

that those in authority do, at times, have the right and ability to reprimand and control you physically.

Anyone who has every been arrested knows this.

Just as grounding a kid to his/her room teaches them that they can also have their freedom restrained by authority.

[kenfrequed]

78. "Actually..."

Seriously I don't think that is much of an argument. Most people accept there are rules and social boundaries without beatings.

Maybe you could tell me why the majority of screwed up people I know all happen to have had some varying level of corporeal punishment. Or perhaps you could explain to me why prisons are so packed with people that were abused as children.

Is there a right amount of beating or spanking? A golden zone? Some kind of absurd Laffer curve for the belt? (as if the Laffer curve isn't already ridiculous)

[Kellerfeller]

81. The majority of people in prisons also smoked

Until they prohibited it in many states.

Does that mean smoking leads to criminal behavior? Of course not.

I work (and have worked) primarily with high achieving people who are well educated (Master's and above). In every discussion were the issue came up, all were spanked.

I was spanked occasionally and don't believe it impacted me negatively at all. I have no evidence it was a positive impact but that would be even more difficult to show.

[kenfrequed]

107. That is a wooly analogy and you know it.

Suggesting there is a connection between violent upbringing and violent antisocial behavoir is logically consistent.

I will take a decent study over your illogical analogies and anecdotes any day of the week.

[Kellerfeller]

119. Speaking of studies, care to back up your claim

that "Maybe you could tell me why the majority of screwed up people I know all happen to have had some varying level of corporeal punishment."

I couldn't find any studies showing that kids who were spanked are more likely to end up in prison.

I can show the the data showing that 80% of the prison population smoked (compared to 20% of the general population). And yet I will not try to jump to the "logically consistent" claim that smoking causes one to end up in prison.

Considering most of our parents, or at least grandparents wer spanked but yet they didn't all end up violent and imprision makes your claim logically inconsistent.

[kenfrequed]

120. Feh

I can see your not planning to be reasonable about this.

Considering the original post contains an actual scientific study about the results of corporeal punishment on children I think your demanding further studies is silly. I think the onus of providing a 'spank-your-way-to-success' study is actually on you.

Are you seriously asking me for a study for my anecdotal experiences in my hometown? That seems sort of silly. Again, the trouble is that the only thing you had were anecdotes whereas my anecdotes were merely providing real world support in my experiences for the study the OP presented.

And no one has made the case that all people spanked turn into homocidal maniacs. I have made the case that it makes violence more acceptable as a solution to problems but that is not the same thing, and your reliance on hyperbole also undercuts any argument you are trying to make.

[Kellerfeller]

122. "No" would have been much more concise.

http://theweek.com/article/index/104745/will-spanking-make-your-child-successful

"According to Calvin College psychology professor Dr. Marjorie Gunnoe, spanking children under the age of 6 can make them happier and more successful later in life. "

http://www.examiner.com/public-policy-in-louisville/smacking-your-kid-is-good-for-him
"Professor Gunnoe questioned 2,600 people about being smacked, of whom a quarter had never been physically chastised.

The participants' answers then were compared with their behaviour, such as academic success, optimism about the future, antisocial behaviour, violence and bouts of depression.

Teenagers in the survey who had been smacked only between the ages of two and six performed best on all the positive measures."
Same study: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/6926823/Smacked-children-more-successful-later-in-life-study-finds.html

"In a Mulvaney and Meberts (2007) longitudinal research study that examined several cultures in an attempt to find adverse effects on the spanking of children, the research findings were not conclusive and did not have strong correlations. In fact, researchers, like McLoyd & Smith (2002), found that in African American families, spanking, when done in a nurturing home environment, can reduce problem behaviors of children;"
http://www.examiner.com/parenting-education-in-los-angeles/spanking-vs-academic-success

[countryjake]

128. Linking to anything that Gunnoe "researched" is questionable...

she did not use 2600 people to conduct that study of hers, her findings were based on questioning less than 100 people, and nothing that she concluded has ever been picked up by any reputable org. that publishes important findings on medical, psychological, or child development research.

That "professor" should be asked why she thinks that the children of the US deserve less human rights and protection under the law than any other citizen of this country!

[Kellerfeller]

129. Which is why I made sure to include references to other studies as well (nt)

[JDPriestly]

141. When my first child was about three months old, a dear friend who had raised a family of five

said to me in German something to the effect of, "Remember. Whatever you give your child, your child will give to you."

That is the best rule.

Children do need self-discipline. They do need to learn their boundaries, their limits and that actions have consequences.

They do not need to be hit or spanked. Learn to talk to your child. Learn to listen to your child. That is how children learn how to think.

Why does a child have to go to bed at night? Explain that to the child. Ask the child to explain why to you. If the child does not get enough sleep and is tired the next day. Explain quietly that the tiredness is the consequence of not getting enough sleep.

Teach your child to think for himself. Teach your child to figure out the natural consequences of actions for himself.

When you hit or spank a child, you take from that child the opportunity to think about or experience the consequences of the child's misconduct.

Spanking is strictly for the satisfaction of the parent. It does absolutely nothing to make the child wiser, more intelligent, more capable of figuring out right from wrong. Nothing is learned from spanking other than that daddy or mommy is angry and it's best to stay out of their way when they are angry.

A parent who cannot control his or her anger well enough to restrain him or herself from hitting or spanking (or beating) his child needs to take anger management classes. Children are not whipping posts.

[trumad]

3. You hit your kid with a wooden spoon?

Why? Seriously---why?

Why would you hit another human being, let alone your own kid?

On edit---do you hit your pets as well?

[alcibiades_mystery]

5. It's incredible how cavalierly these people discuss beating their children

Oh, in their opinion, it's just a quick swat when they beat their own small children with household items!



You wonder why our world is so irretrievably fucked.

[trumad]

6. Stunned by it---

21st fucking century and people still act all 19th century.

[CreekDog]

17. I don't normally agree with your anger and swearing

but here, it's well placed.



the idea of intentionally hitting a child while one is angry with that child in hopes that their fear of pain will do something is disgusting.

[trumad]

23. Well I'm trying to soften and have even taken to wearing sweater vests.

Kidding about the sweater vests.

[CreekDog]

101. sociopathic evangelizing of hitting children (in this case with weapons)

these people live in the dream world that allows them to think that their hitting is okay because they perceive it to be less severe than people who hit their kids so hard they end up in the hospital. that's bullshit.

spanking should be illegal, likewise hitting with an object.

and now that i think about it, since hitting an adult is illegal, my interpretation of the law is that it's not legal to hit a child either.

unless the laws that protect adults from being hit don't apply to protect children as well. now that would be f- up.

[Lionessa]

9. Why?, because it was her choice. Serious behavior issues need serious response.

It isn't like my children needed anything akin to constant discipline, and given some other logical discipline, we'd use that. For example, the most standard discipline was writing sentences like "whoever is angrier is the loser, because being angry gives away your personal power," for my son who had anger mgmt issues (note he was never spanked).

Hmm, that aside really does bring up a good point. My son who was never spanked, and the younger, is the one who had more anger mgmt issues. My daughter who chose spanking and was disciplined this way from 4yo till 16yo, has absolutely no anger mgmt issues, no issues whatsoever.

My son changes jobs every 5-10 months because of difficulties with the management, my daughter is completing her Masters, is in a dept head position, and been with the company for 6 years and the industry for 10 years.

My small personal world does not uphold the supposed findings in this report.

[trumad]

15. So do you hit your pets?

[d_r]

16. I used to ride my bike without a helmet

rode in the back of a truck, and I don't even know if we had seat belts.

No head injuries for me, here I am able to type on the internet. Surely that means that bike helmets, seat belts and so on are not needed.

[trumad]

20. I hit my daughter---she is getting her Masters...

I didn't hit my son and he's trouble.


Weird.

[Lionessa]

38. My daughter made a choice, should I have dishonored her choice?

My son made a choice, and though it doesn't seem to have worked as well, I honored that choice.

If you think a parent should be 100% in charge of all discipline, then no matter what type you choose, imo you're wrong. For discipline to even half work to the CHILD's benefit, (as opposed to for the parents' whim), the child needs to participate.

[CreekDog]

102. she was 4 years old, you said yourself --freaking warped

that's what that behavior was.

we're not here to build up your self-esteem. however well your children turned out was in spite of, not because of, the spankings you inflected on them, which you compounded by making them "choose" them.

but nobody can tell you you're wrong. if there's one thing people who defend corporal punishment of children can be counted on to do, is to never EVER admit that this particular parenting they did was dead wrong.

when you're taught not to hit people, that applies to kids, moreso.

you wouldn't hit me (or would you?), but you'd hit your child?

yikes. seriously, will any of us get through to you?

[YellowRubberDuckie]

117. I might be able to defend you if you had swatted them with a hand...

...but giving a child a choice between a prolonged punishment or something that will be over in a few seconds (hopefully) is just ridiculous. You are supposed to be an adult. You should act like it.
Speaking from experience, spanking, once I was able to be logical and rational, did nothing more than make me HATE my parents. They should NEVER have had children. EVER.
Participation is putting creative punishments in a jar and making them pull something out when they've done something wrong, not a choice between beating them with a wooden spoon and say cleaning the entire house or three weeks of grounding. You have lost your mind if you think the excuse that she chose it is going to excuse the fact that you ABUSED your kid.
Duckie

[Luminous Animal]

86. Her choice at age four!?!?!? Presumably you were hitting her at an even earlier age in order for

Last edited Tue Feb 7, 2012, 10:41 PM - Edit history (1)

her to decide by age four that she preferred physical abuse over incarceration.

[geardaddy]

127. being angry gives away your personal power?

That's fucked up.

It's healthy to be angry. It's how one expresses it that can be the problem.

[geardaddy]

123. My brother, sister, and I were all hit with a wooden spoon.

That's one of the reasons I'm in therapy.

[d_r]

11. " Well, they offer no indication of how they come to this conclusion, so I have doubts."

"... reached its conclusion after examining 20 years of published research on the issue."

[Lionessa]

43. So what did they examine in those published research.

How did that research determine the position? How many were involved in the study? Was it questionnaires? Was it parents giving the "answers" the research is based on or the children? How long was the child's life tracked, if it was only tracked to teen years, I'd bet the opinion data would be different with the same children in their mid-20s.

If they examined 20 years of research, I'd like to see some links to those research studies so I can fairly evaluate whether my children are just a couple of exceptions to the rule, or whether the rule is improperly gleaned.

[CreekDog]

103. do all these questions help you rationalize your choices?

[2ndAmForComputers]

14. I dodged a bullet

by not having a mom like you.

[trumad]

18. Unfortunately I had a father who gave me the belt quite often...

And I resent him for that to this day.

[Lionessa]

45. Me too, and that is different. That's beatings, not spankings.

That's careless parenting and would be even if he'd chosen other discipline. "Quite often," shouldn't happen with proper parenting.

[2ndAmForComputers]

68. The definitions of spanking and beating:

Spanking: What I do or less violent.
Beating: Anything that's more violent than what I do.

[Lionessa]

72. You could simplify to that if you want to for morons with limited ability to think critically.

[MattBaggins]

108. NY state law

if you use an object it is abuse and you have a nice long investigation with CPS.

[obamanut2012]

34. Using a wooden spoon isn't spanking

Spanking a child is done with your hand. You can call it that all you want, but it isn't spanking.

[trumad]

39. then what about a switch from a tree

Or a spatula...of a belt?

[obamanut2012]

64. Also not spanking

That's a beating as well.

I'm also against spanking, btw.

[Lionessa]

47. I didn't lie, cheat, or steal, why should my hand hurt?

Spoon is the same size and having no air openings (which hands do) actually lands more gently than a hand. We tested it, daughter said use spoon not hand. So we did. She said the spoon stings, while the hand hurts.

[alcibiades_mystery]

54. You're a real sicko

Disgusting.

[Lionessa]

57. No I'm actually not, but if it helps your twist on the subject,

feel free to be incorrect.

[obamanut2012]

66. Doing "comparison tests" of hitting methods

On your kids.

Interesting.

[Alexander]

83. Sick people almost never realize they're sick.

The more I see your posts, the more I get the impression that you don't belong here.

[Number23]

85. + a million

[WCIL]

61. Wow

In no universe does a wooden spoon hurt less than a hand. I was "swatted" with a wooden spoon, and make no mistake, they were beatings. Call them whatever makes you feel better, but you gave your daughter beatings. Our "swats" with the wooden spoon raised so many bruises my mother was afraid to let us go to school.

[obamanut2012]

62. My my

[2ndAmForComputers]

82. I take back my post 14. I didn't dodge a bullet.

I dodged an ICBM.

[Luminous Animal]

76. Both the spanking and room restricitons that last for days during the toddler years are abusive.

Toddlers time outs should start off for a few minutes only (and never in isolation) when they are quite small and leading up to more than 15-20 minutes by the time they are four.

[roguevalley]

94. it didn't hurt us, a simple swat. This study sounds fucked.

[LanternWaste]

121. I imagine we often project that line of though...

"This study sounds fucked...."

I imagine we often project that line of thought onto a study if it counters our own, personal, anecdotal evidence.

[roguevalley]

134. perhaps but then I've been in teaching and rode the waves of

studies that were fucked. Show me the data. I tell you from experience that way too many studies are fucked.

[CreekDog]

100. how was prison?

hitting your kids with a weapon?

a 4 year old?



do you have any idea what would happen to you today if you had kids and tried that BS?

[LeftyMom]

105. You hit a four year old with a spoon? If I knew where you lived I'd call the cops.

Absolutely disgusting.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

106. At Least It Wasn't A Frying Pan

.

[JDPriestly]

140. GOOD HEAVENS. UGHHH.

[yellowcanine]

7. I think that anyone who really pays attention sees that hitting children or dogs has a net negative

effect. Yes, physical punishment certainly works in the short term. But all you have to do is see a child or a dog flinch from someone's hand to know that physical punishment has lasting negative results. Children and dogs should see a hand reaching out as a positive movement, not a negative one.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

8. I Had This Conversation With A Friend.

Why can't you hit an adult that does something you find violated a norm?

[Lionessa]

10. Well, shit, NO ONE of ANY AGE should be disciplined for not being normal.

[yellowcanine]

29. "violated a norm" is not the same as "not normal"

"Violated a norm" is a fancy way of saying misbehaved, according to the standards (norms) of wherever one happens to be.

[Lionessa]

33. Nonetheless, that would not be a reason for spanking, that's when

writing sentences is better, imo.

Spankings around ours was as mentioned optional, and only for the three serious things: lying, cheating, or stealing.

For example, my children sometimes called me a bitch. No discipline. Why? Because I can be a bitch, I'm not disciplining them for being smart and for commenting on what they accurately see. Though I regularly saw other children disciplined for similar, whether by spank or whatever, they got disciplined for seeing their mothers realistically.

For example, the kids used to (and most do from time to time) say, "I don't love you anymore!" because of some thing or another they didn't like. Did I discipline them with swats? no. Did I discipline them with tears and broken heart and all kinds of guilt laid upon them? no Very simply, "Yeah, but you don't love me any less either." And off we go.

Perhaps you all here make the assumption that a spanking parent is spanking all the time for every reason. Perhaps some do, but it isn't the spanking, it IS the carelessness of inappropriate discipline, no matter what type, imo.

[kenfrequed]

69. Uhm... I don't think you understand the term 'norm'

A norm is a term referring to what is culturally acceptable. Lying, cheating, and stealing would be considered violations of the norm.

[Lionessa]

73. A very small subset of "norm," as opposed to everything that might not be considered "norm".

Where my kids grew up, if I was to react to every culturally unacceptable thing, I've had to discipline them for being staunch and verbal atheists, or for refusing to honor the school library's restrictions on who could check out what, or any number of other anti-cultural perspectives and actions that my children displayed.

Three things were swat/restriction worthy, and only three things, not everything that was contrary to this country's totally screwed up cultural norms.

[vanlassie]

97. AT FOUR YEARS OLD?????

[trumad]

13. Because the adult will knock the shit out of you...

Oh such bravery with hitting someone who won't hit back.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

21. Why Can't A Nation Just Drop A Bomb On Another Nation That Did Something It Didn't Like?

The only thing that is different is the force of the negative sanction.

[Lionessa]

28. So I'm curious do you advocate vaccines?

I ask because I use the same logic to sensible discipline, like giving children a choice of disciplines, one of which was spanking.

The logic is, better a hurtful stab in the arm or leg now, than the more serious illness or death later.

Same here, for some serious behaviors, better a spanking or days on room restriction than to risk serious injury or other serious issues later.

Again, doing it TO a child, not a great idea in my book. But disciplining WITH the child by allowing the child to pick their discipline, not whether or not they'll be disciplined, but pick how they are disciplined as well as thoroughly conversing about both the problem and potential solutions. . . not a bad thing.

Random, anger stoked, mostly silent discipline... even room restrictions under these circumstances will f' up a child as they have little or no understanding of what aspect was wrong or what they might have done to isolate the offending step of the behavior from the okay aspects that generally surround it.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

48. I've never thought of a vaccination as a violent loss of control of one's own feelings

I have, however, thought that very thing about the way my dad spanked me with a belt.

[Lionessa]

53. Sounds like your dad and mine had issues. I never disciplined in anger, no matter the type.

I recognized that tie to discipline of any sort is contrary to the goal of parenting. The goal to me was to assure my children as adults would be able to make the choices they desired with the skills and wherewithall to accomplish those choices. With that in mind, disciplining because or while I was angry would be entirely counter to that concept. But I stand by the furthering of that idea to say, ANY discipline done in anger is likely to be inappropriately harsh, and of no value to the child.

[kctim]

124. I know you won't like this

especially coming from me, but some people don't believe it is possible to spank or swat not in anger. They also don't have a clue as to the difference between a spanking and a beating.
I'm sure you have seen them, they are the ones who let their brats run around acting like jackasses, or who blame the teacher when their little angel calls the teacher a bitch.

[kenfrequed]

71. Corporeal punishment is not a vaccine.

And there is no logical or scientific data that supports corporeal punishment. Just a whole mess of people with vauge anecdotal data based on their own expectations, impressions, and beliefs.

You really cannot analogize a vaccine to spanking, or even suggest that they serve the same function.

[obamanut2012]

75. So, if you don;t spank, the child will die?

Or be in horrible physical pain, and maybe disabled for life?

THAT is what you're saying?

Wut.

[Lionessa]

74. This is only partially accurate.

True, while she (since only my daughter opted for swats) was not allowed to hit ever, or swat me back at the time of her discipline.

False, what's good for the goose and all... there were the occasional times when in fact, I didn't live up to my own rules. Guess who got to give me swats, since it was completely impossible for Mom to be on room restriction? Both of my kids.

Yep, I never held my children to a higher standard than myself. And yes, they knew how to swing a spoon to make it sting.

[vanlassie]

99. Wait- you had your kids spank you??????????

Are you kidding?

[MattBaggins]

110. It just keeps getting wierder

[Matariki]

116. sounds like non-consensual sado-masochism

needs to be called what it is - NOT responsible child rearing.

[obamanut2012]

36. EXACTLY -- becaus eit is ASSAULT

And you would be arrested,

[yellowcanine]

19. I would add that I taught school for 6 years and some of the angriest kids I ever saw were the ones

who were regularly being hit. I just don't see any upside to it. A child will often perceive the hitting to be unfair and carry that feeling for a long time. It still pisses me that my second grade teacher gave me a paddling solely on the word of a fellow student (the teacher's pet put in charge of the room) who tattled on me saying that I had been TALKING while the teacher was out of the room. I had not been and it was not as if I would have been the only one talking anyway. I was 7 years old. And the injustice of it still hurts over 50 years later. I have forgotten what I am sure were the many positive attributes of that particular teacher because of that one very negative interaction. And I normally got along with my teachers. Most of them I have fond memories of, even the ones who were pretty tough and made us toe the line. But not that one.

[Lionessa]

31. I agree, having been that, exactly, but regularly being hit, and responsible spanking are not equal

I will more than happily agree that spanking is sometime utilized carelessly and angrily by those adults that chose it as an only option and in the "I'm an adult and I can beat it into/out of you if I want."

[obamanut2012]

40. Uisng a wooden spoon to hit a child isn't spanking

I am also against hitting a child with a hand, but using anything other than a hand sure as hell ain't spanking. How about if someone holds you down and hits you with a wooden spoon a few times the next time you do something someone else doesn't like.

[yellowcanine]

92. Sorry but I think the line between "responsible spanking" and "beating" is very thin and frequently

crossed by frustrated parents who start out with good intentions but lose control all too frequently. I would be particularly concerned with a parent who has a background of being severely punished/abused themselves. I think it is best that such persons not use spanking at all because their latent anger may come out when they least expect it on their children. The research suggesting that abused children become abusive parents is too convincing to take lightly.

[AverageJoe90]

91. I never once heard of a 'pampered' kid who was that angry.....

....that didn't have other issues in their lives.

[PotatoChip]

25. +1

Exactly.

I find it suprising how many parents believe spanking is appropriate. Not only is it not effective, but there is so much irony in the act- I remember one time overhearing 2 women in a discussion about how one of them was called to her child's school regarding the aggressive behavior of her son. He was hitting other children apparently. The other woman then asked how she addressed the problem. Woman w/unruly child replied that her boy got a major "a** whoopin" when he arrived home from school that day.

[obamanut2012]

42. Supernanny aka Jo Frost is anti spanking

So is Dr. Phil, which surprises me, since he's a wingnut.

[Lionessa]

27. If done regularly for silly little reasons, or for reasons they don't fully comprehend,

then I agree the ducking and cringing can occur, as that was my childhood and I definitely had reactions to any movement my father made.

However I both spanked children and pets, and none of mine have ever flinched from me, even when they know I'm pissed at them, because being pissed was never the reason I swatted my kids or my dogs.

One thing I did determine was that discipline to be useful needs to be understood by the receiver, and as mentioned in a post above, anger gets in the way of everything useful. So this type of discipline for the kids was not spontaneous where is was a spanking or room restriction, and the quick smack on the hand or swat on the but in the process of a nearly harmful activity like the stove or road mentioned above, was of course also never out of anger, but out of concern.

Furthermore, after any discipline, we always had a follow up conversation to be sure they knew what the discipline was for since children can sway things in their mind a bit, and to discuss better options for next time something similar happened.

When the kids know they're in trouble, they aren't listening anymore, so the follow up was important regardless of spanks or room restriction. For example, my daughter mouthed off to a woman who totally deserved it when I wasn't around. The woman threw a fit, and my daughter got disciplined... not because she mouthed off, but because when I asked her if she did, she lied. Lying, cheating, and stealing were the three things the kids knew were discipline required. Afterwards during our after conversation, the only thing she needed to change of her ways was telling the truth, I explained that she had every right to have mouthed off to whom she did and with the words she used. If I had just disciplined, she would probably have thought that adults could do or say anything to her and she couldn't respond, I didn't want that. Or as in my case as a child, ..."why were you beaten?" "Because mommy told daddy a lie and he got mad a beat us."

I don't think all swats, all spankings are equal. I know what I call a spanking is just that, some swats on the bum. What my parents called spanking was strip naked, grab your ankles, out comes the doubled up military belt, and 15 minutes be "spanked" with the two loose ends, one with a buckle on it, till me butt and thighs were blistered and bloody. No conversation before or after, sometimes we were quite literally pulled out of bed from a sound sleep for these. So excuse me if I don't consider giving my children the option of 10 swats, fully clothed, fully on the bum only, and with an option to choose room restriction as bad parenting.

[SalviaBlue]

41. I'm sorry, but this makes absolutely no sense to me.

They don't flinch?? Is this a point to be proud of?

So you're hitting your kids with a wooden spoon 10 times, but not to cause pain. Is it to cause humiliation then?

You seem to really believe you are reasonable, but it sounds insane to me.

[Lionessa]

56. The point is that they never feared my anger, because anger didn't cause me to discipline.

Not to discipline in any manner. There were no sudden or unexpected spankings. First discussion, then they get to choose, then we would have a follow up discussion. While actively angry about anything, one should not discipline at all, it surely guarantees confusion for the child because the parent won't be "in the mood" to discuss and offer better alternatives to the offending behavior. Angry hitters, are just satisfying themselves, not attempting to raise children.


So you think I should have discounted my daughter''s choice to have her bum sting for 15 minutes after rather than be stuck in her room for 10 days? So I should start her young life telling her she's too stupid to make her own choices? Wow, couldn't have done that.

[Liquorice]

63. How do you have a discussion with you pets? You said you

spanked your pets too. Did you discuss their options beforehand, or just let them have it? And did you wait until you weren't angry with the dog and then go over and start hitting the poor thing? It's illegal to hit animals. It's called animal abuse. I don't think you should get any more animals. JMO

As for giving your daughter a choice. I think it's a phony choice. You made the alternative to the hitting so unappealing that you knew she would choose the physical pain. 10 days locked in a room is unacceptable punishment for any child. And so is hitting them, especially with objects. Two terrible choices doesn't equal a choice at all.

[Lionessa]

70. Two things.

Again, swatting isn't the same as hitting, imo, and that isn't going to change no matter how hard you try to equate the two. However, you are correct in that an animal swat needs to be immediate or they don't get it. But I assure you, no one seems to have minded when I swatted my 126# german shepherd mix for jumping up on company entering to the door to give them a huge loving kisses right on their faces. And I assure you, the swat didn't cause any pain through all that fur, but it still worked within three swats, or three incidents as it were.

Secondly, if the alternative so awful, why was it the one my son chose? Makes no sense. She thought room restriction was unappealing, but my son didn't at all. He thought swats were unappealing, but my daughter didn't at all. How strange that a parent would actually allow their children to work with them in discipline rather than lording over them, but hey, it worked.

[MattBaggins]

111. I don't believe that choking some one is assualt

like punching them is and that not going to change no matter how much you try to equate the two.

[obamanut2012]

46. I cannot believe you also hit your pets

Wow of wow.

You know this literally does nothing for their training, right? Except create either mean or scared animals.

Bragging about your kids and pets not flinching while you hit them is something I cannot even wrap my mind around. I would NEVER hit a child or a pet. If for some reason I went crazy for a minute and did, I would carry guilt about it until the end of my days for having done so.

I honestly cannot comprehend thinking this way.

[yellowcanine]

49. Sorry but I think the difference in power between a child and an adult is too great for a child to

truly comprehend why they are getting spanked or to make an informed decision to choose a spanking over some kind of alternative. And I don't think there is any good reason for hitting a pet. A pet that is hit will learn not to trust people. For both children and pets, there are more effective ways of training, so why do it and take the chance of harm?

[Lionessa]

60. I never have nor never will treat my children as stupid as you suggest.

Probably helps though that both of mine are geniuses, reading fully by kindergarten. Not learning to read, but able to read Harry Potter, or Ramona, or DragonsGate series, as well as standard math and very basic science.

Additionally, my daughter actually did have room restriction till she was 4, so she had some definite comparative data.

[CreekDog]

104. perhaps you'll hit the road and become a missionary for child spanking

and all the wonders it works.

you won't actually help any children.

but it will make *you* feel better.

[Alexander]

84. So you're abusive to both your kids and your pets.

No wonder your kids call you a bitch.

You should be locked up.

[AverageJoe90]

90. They beat you that badly, huh?

I'd have gotten back at them eventually. I don't think you'd wanna know the kinds of revenge I'd have in mind. Trust me.

[geardaddy]

126. ^ this

[2ndAmForComputers]

12. Well, duh.

[CreekDog]

22. I once asked on DU how much pain were spankers advocating

one of the clearest responses advocating spanking was sociopathic. the part that was sociopathic was the detailed description of how to do it and when it was too much. but it looked more like a tip sheet for hitting your kid without leaving a mark.

compared spanking to raising a puppy too.

[NNN0LHI]

24. Just what I have been saying for years

Being on an anonymous public website we have to have at least one of everything here.

And I mean everything.

Don

[CreekDog]

26. i think you were one of the voices of reason in that thread

good.

[NNN0LHI]

67. Not sure if I was involved in the thread you are talking about?

But when it comes to an adult hitting on little kids there is no excuse for it. None.



Don

[MissB]

93. Yet another reason why you

Are one of my favorite DUers.

[E-Z-B]

30. I was spanked as a child. I'm doing great as an adult making a great living now

I have no mental issues either. Looking back on it, I probably deserved those spankings, and thank my parents for disciplining me. Sure beats most parents today who either try to be the kid's friend or are too busy to get involved with their kid's lives because their smartphone is more interesting or wanting to go out boozing after work.

However, we're talking about a spanking on the butt every now and then, and not beyond that.

[obamanut2012]

52. I am tired of the "parents today are too permissive with their kids"

No, they're not. There are good parents and bad parents, just like they have always been. There are no more brats than there used to be. Kids used to make a game of beating up the schoolteacher and breaking up the school 100-150 years ago. All of my friends and relatives are great, engaged parents, some better than others. None spank.

If a coworker hits me because they don't like something I did, but I'm still able to do my job and not go to therapy, does that make the fact of their hitting me okay? And, yes, it is the same thing, except that I can defend myself against my coworker to an extent, as well as get them arrested and also fired.

[AverageJoe90]

89. I don't like that claim, either.

I've always noticed that happens to be a very popular meme with the far right in this country.

[yellowcanine]

55. "Sure beats most parents today who either try to be the kid's friend..." That is a false choice.

Not spanking does not equal no boundaries or no discipline or ignoring a child. And spanking does not equal consistent discipline and paying attention. In fact I would wager that more spanking is done by parents who are inconsistent in discipline and who regularly ignore the child than by parents who are consistent and who pay attention. A typical pattern is a thoughtless parent who lets the child get away with all kinds of crap and then when things get out of hand they try to reign the child back in by spanking them. These parents are often the "deal makers" also - essentially using negative reinforcement or bribes to get them to behave. What it does is teaches the child to be manipulative.

[bullwinkle428]

32. Was I spanked regularly as a kid? Yes. Did it affect my decision to not have kids when

I grew up, became an adult, and got married? Quite possibly yes, so in that sense, could that be considered long-term psychological damage? The jury is still out on that, but evidence sure points in that direction, in my own humble opinion, of course.

[laundry_queen]

87. I was spanked regularly as a kid as well.

I still remember the humiliation and the pain, and the loss of trust in my parents, the people I most needed to depend on.

It fucked me up.

Oh, I'm still a productive member of society - I've never had so much as a speeding ticket, I'm not in prison, I don't beat my kids. I'm in school full time with a 3.9 GPA.

BUT - because of how I was treated, I married someone who was emotionally abusive (and now I"m getting a divorce, trying to raise 4 kids on my own). Because of how I was treated, I was okay with being treated like dirt. Sure, on the 'outside' I'm great. On the inside, I'm a mess. There are so many issues I have (PTSD is one) from the way I was raised.

A therapist once described it to me like this - as a child you are preprogrammed to trust in your parents 100% because they are literally your lifeline. The first time you get smacked, that trust is broken. And, in any relationship, once trust is broken, it must be earned back. If it was a one time smack, chances are you will trust your parent again eventually. If you are smacked again, then again, before you can learn to trust again, then you are unable to follow your instinct regarding your parent. Your instinct is to trust, but you learn you cannot trust. This is where the individuality of the child comes in.

Some children, unable to accept they cannot trust the people they must depend upon, keep on trusting - blindly. They will follow/trust/obey that parent to the ends of the earth. They will try to be the perfect child, the perfect person. And when that child grows up, he/she will be the perfect prey for predators because he/she is unable to read their own instincts on who to trust.

Other children lose trust in everyone. They become angry, they rebel, they learn they can only depend on themselves. They become 'problem children'. They don't trust anybody, even those who want to help. They often end up addicted, or in jail. They end up with a PD.

In both cases, the children are seriously damaged, but only in the second case is it visible. Just because someone is 'successful' doesn't mean anything. I've known 'successful' sociopaths. I've known 'successful' abused women. You'd be surprised at what goes on behind closed doors - even within your own family (like grown children). And I don't buy the bullshit about "It's okay if it's not done in anger". Either way, trust is broken. If it's not done in anger, then it just seems more calculated and the mental backflips a child has to do to reconcile in their mind about why a parent would CHOOSE to hurt them is often why children blame themselves and internalize the family's issues.

Now, this scenario is possible in people who don't spank as well - throw in some emotional abuse, or manipulation and you can mess up a child as well - this is why it's difficult to get a clear picture from just studying spanking. My mother didn't spank me much, but she was very good at manipulating me into thinking certain ways or lying for her or whatever. That is equally damaging and is also a breach of trust. However, spanking is an easier 'control' to study than 'emotional manipulation' which is why we get these spanking studies - which by the way have been VERY clear from the start that it's never a good idea and even if done 'right' (in quotes for a reason) has a chance of great harm.

[bullwinkle428]

95. Wow - thank you so much for sharing that part of your life. Like you, I ended up marrying

someone who was emotionally abusive as well. There were some early red flags in terms of emotional manipulation, but I guess I somehow rationalized that as something typical of every marriage. Went through a lot of shit over the last few years of the marriage, with the underlying feeling that to divorce would have simply given me a label of "permanent fuck-up", so I didn't want to just throw in the towel. It wasn't until the revelation of an affair on the part of my wife that I had the complete realization that things had to end.

I honestly believe I have aspects of both eventual outcomes you described, and this internal fight has almost certainly prevented me from achieving everything I'm capable of, despite the fact that I'm doing very well by many standards, and have a pretty fulfilling life by my own set of definitions. I still look back at some events of my childhood and think WHY did they choose to handle it that way, and the fact that I continue to do this at age 47 really indicates how impressionable kids are, and how things stay with them through their entire lives.

[laundry_queen]

98. It's amazing isn't it?

I'm 36 and I still have issues I deal with every day that are a direct result of the way I was raised (not all my issues are spanking related - both my parents have NPD qualities as well). Kids are so very impressionable. I'm raising mine pretty much the opposite of what I grew up with, hoping that they will grow up with, at a minimum, the feeling that they are a valuable human being - something I still don't *feel* about myself to this day...

BTW, I could've written your first paragraph. I tried so hard, didn't want a divorce (you are so right - there is a huge stigma) and hung on, until I found out about the affair. At that point I knew it was over, but I can really relate to the rationalizing of events that, in retrospect, were not normal. I was raised to think that being mistreated like that was OK (after all, that's how my parents - who were supposed to love me - treated me), and that mentality continued into my marriage. I had friends say things like, "I would never put up with THAT" and even though on some level I knew it was wrong, the way you allow yourself to be treated is ingrained in you from a very young age and it is something that is difficult to change without loads of therapy. right back at you.

[obamanut2012]

35. You would be arrested for striking another adult

But, doing it to your own child is okay. I have never understood this. (I am excluding consensual adult sex play.)

And, spanking is striking someone.

[Kellerfeller]

80. You would also be arrested for imprisoning an adult

in their bedroom.

Or taking away their car keys.

Children are not adults.

[MattBaggins]

112. What is your point?

[Kellerfeller]

118. Simply that the argument of "Well you can't do that to an adult"

is not a good one since there are lots of things we can (and in some cases, should) do to kids that we can't to other adults.

[Still Blue in PDX]

37. Gosh, I've always wondered why I'm neurotic as hell.

Must have been that "lickin'" I got when I lost my report card in the excavation that was to become I-5 in North Portland.

My mom apologized when she discovered that my grades were totally awesome and it was an accident, but the damage was done.

I started out writing this ironically, but I now realize that fifty years later I am still pissed over that.

[Major Hogwash]

44. Good Christ, I wish she would have only used a freakin' wooden spoon!!

One time when I was a kid and I was out in my back yard, I said something bad, I don't remember what now, and my mom yelled at me and she reached up to break off a twig from the bush that was growing by the house because she wanted to get a switch to beat my ass with, and she wound up pulling down a whole branch about 3 feet long and she beat my ass with it!!

Right in front of all the neighbor kids that were outside in their back yard next door! They all ran into their house laughing and told their mom that I had just got beaten half to death by my mom who used a freakin' tree branch to beat me with!

[Still Blue in PDX]

77. I think your trauma trumps my trauma! nt

[onlyadream]

50. Another thing I can blame on my parents

The strap, the spoon, the hand... To think, I could've been a whole lot smarter.

[Still Blue in PDX]

79. I got it with a yardstick.

Only once that I remember, but I'm sure that knocked a bunch of points off my IQ.

[mrs_p]

51. Man, I could have been a genius.

Damn, you, mama! (fist in air)

No really, I love my mother. But she was young and raised me like she was raised. There was lots of spankings. I'm trying not to ever spank because (1) I don't want to hurt my kids and (2) it just teaches them to be violent to get their way. Trying to figure out the alternatives.

[tawadi]

59. I'm screwed

[renie408]

88. I don't know about the IQ thing, but it will certainly fuck you up emotionally.

That I can personally attest to.

[2labslib]

96. I was spanked and all it taught me

was to be terrified of my father. I still remember the fear I felt when I got off the bus and saw his car outside our house. (He had a job where he was often away for days at a time.)

And it was open hand swat on the bottom.... Always used as a discipline technique.... Completely allowed by today's standards.

[Bonobo]

109. Same thing for monkeys. nt

[BlueIris]

113. What a shock. Spanking creates future sociopaths. It's also WEAK and LAZY parenting.

Only monsters and cowards hit children.

[renate]

114. I am blessed to have fantastic parents--and I was spanked

Not very often and certainly not hard. And I am happy to say that my husband and I have never spanked our children--after I started reading parenting books that pointed out that spanking is hitting (duh!), I was never even tempted. But when I was growing up, just about everybody did it; my parents were practically hippies and they did it.

I think it's all about intention and control. Their intentions were good and they weren't ever, ever out of control--they didn't use the opportunity of a spanking to vent their anger. It didn't hurt, either, at least not that I remember--I would describe it as a swat. They would explain that I had done something wrong and then I might get a little swat and then life went on. Grounding was actually their discipline of choice, and I would have preferred a spanking, frankly.

My husband, on the other hand, was beaten rather than "spanked." He ended up having basically no relationship with his father as soon as he could get out of the house. My parents and I are very close.

I can honestly say that, although I would never spank a child, in the context of a loving family an occasional swat on the bum never did me any harm. I do want to emphasize that I wouldn't do it myself and don't think it's an acceptable method of discipline, but in terms of this study's findings, I think there's a world of difference between a slap on the butt and a beating that's intended to inflict pain.

[Kellerfeller]

125. +100 (nt)

[uponit7771]

136. +1, I was spanked also. Saw 18yr olds in the military who didn't pay attention do push ups...

...and they all of a sudden had some of the best attention spans you could think of.

One size fits all seems thoughtless

[Go Vols]

130. spanking young children can help them grow into better-functioning adults

Last edited Wed Feb 8, 2012, 07:52 PM - Edit history (1)

According to Calvin College psychology professor Dr. Marjorie Gunnoe, spanking children under the age of 6 can make them happier and more successful later in life.

http://theweek.com/article/index/104745/will-spanking-make-your-child-successful

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/blogs/nurture-shock/2009/12/30/some-kids-are-never-spanked-do-they-turn-out-better.html

[countryjake]

132. Ah yes, the xtian "scientist", touted by Focus on the Family...

and the No Greater Joy Ministries for her studies on the "God Concept" and her unproven, mishandled research on corporal punishment in the US.

[trumad]

133. Yeah---

And they could also turn into serial killers.

What a dumb Professor.

[Arkana]

131. I was spanked as a kid and I have a 140 IQ.

It's not an empirical truth.

[redqueen]

135. Here's the clue you missed: The title says "can," not "will".

Hope that clears things up.

[uponit7771]

137. Possibility goes without saying, the article doesn't state PROBABILITY...

...and allows for too much subjective assumptions in that area

[redqueen]

138. Which study allows for "too much subjective assumptions"?

Do you have a link to the 20-year study's methodology and results?

The study, published this week in the Canadian Medical Association Journal, reached its conclusion after examining 20 years of published research on the issue. The authors say the medical finding have been largely overlooked and overshadowed by concerns that parents should have the right to determine how their children are disciplined.

(snip)

"We're really past the point of calling this a controversy. That's a word that's used and I don't know why, because in the research there really is no controversy," she said in an interview.

(snip)

While banned in 32 countries, corporal punishment of children retains at least partial social acceptance in much of the world. Debates on the issue typically revolve around the ethics of using violence to enforce discipline.

(snip)

"Here, we have more than 80 studies, I would say more than 100, that show the same thing (about corporal punishment), and yet we keep calling it controversial."

[Kingofalldems]

139. What about getting slapped in the face?

That's what I got, never a spanking.