DU Poll on Attitudes toward Rape

[mistertrickster]

The polling feature has not been programmed on DU3 yet.

For simplicity sake, please vote YES if you agree with any of the following (starred) statements:

Vote NO if you disagree with all the statements:


A woman is responsible for forced, unwanted sex against her will if she

* dresses in skimpy or tight clothes that show off her body.

* drinks at a bar and flirts with one or more men.

* goes to a man's apartment after a date or after drinking with a man at a bar.

* gets so drunk that she passes out.

* crawls into bed with a man.



******

I'm trying to get a feeling for attitudes toward rape among the DU community and contrast them with a study that was conducted in London.

Thank you.

[atreides1]

1. Let me be the first

NO!!!

[rfranklin]

2. I would say she isn't too intelligent about her well-being if she does 4, 5 and 6...

Just like it's not too smart to walk through a Nigerian slum wearing a Rolex.

[mistertrickster]

4. That wasn't the question . . . is she responsible? yes or no?

Great sig line, btw.

[rfranklin]

8. I think there is a difference between "she deserved it" and she was tempting fate...

I don't support the former or the latter.

[roguevalley]

88. it is a testiment to the way somw men think that any time a woman acts

in a way that isn't perfectly thought out concerning her own safety that her well being is in jeopardy. Men are the problem with rape (a nod at the women who do the same-a nod that they are a tiny fraction of the problem) not the women. No woman anywhere is surrendering her consent because she has a stupid moment. Rape is about men, not women.

[mistertrickster]

3. I too vote NO. for the record. nt

[Brickbat]

5. No.

[hlthe2b]

6. NO.... the one responsible is the rapist.

TO say otherwise is like saying those who are murdered at he hands of strangers are responsible for having left the house (or if killed in the home, for failing to have
a totally sealed and secured home).

[Cleita]

7. No.

I don't agree with any of the statements.

[msongs]

9. Yes if you agree with ANY, No if u disagree with all? wierd poll methodology nt

[mistertrickster]

10. I agree, but it was the best way I could think of to try

to match the important results of the London study, given the technology available.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

11. If she says "No" or "Stop" etc at any time and he continues - it's rape.

Even if stupid or naive or provocative behavior precedes it.

[HockeyMom]

12. Men don't have BRAINS and cannot control themselves?

Damn, aren't you men insulted by that? If not, you SHOULD be. As humans our BRAINS are what separate us from animals. Do you men consider yourself more animal than human? THINK about that.

[mistertrickster]

15. I'll count that as NO.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

[11 Bravo]

13. FUCK NO, in every example!

[Nye Bevan]

14. No (nt)

[Scuba]

16. A woman is never responsible for "forced, unwanted sex against her will."

[cyberswede]

17. ^ this. nt

[mistertrickster]

24. You're agreeing with ^ this?

I'll count that as a NO vote.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

[Dokkie]

18. No to 1 and 2

But is a man partially responsible for his stolen money if he leaves the cash exposed, half way out of his pocket, wearing blindfolds while walking around drunk down a dark ally in the middle of the night?

In the eyes of the law, shes not responsible for anything that happens to her, she can even agree to sex, tease the man until his balls are dark blue, pull out and then tease him again with agreement that there will be sex and can still pull just at the last second again and still not be responsible for anything that happened to her. A man has to control his urges no matter what and we all know how easy it is to control our raging hormones

[mistertrickster]

22. Right. I think that's where the controversy comes in.

How do you define "responsible for" something?

Obviously, someone who falls 100 feet while rock climbing is not responsible for their death as a suicide would be.

But they put themselves into a riskier position, so some responsibility must be taken for that.

On the other hand, the inexorable laws of physics are not the same as the behavior of the man in the situation, who has a clear choice.

*****

On edit, I think it's incorrect to say that a woman can agree to sex and then claim she was raped--legally that wouldn't hold.

[Dokkie]

25. On the other hand we are talking about

raging hormones(especially for the young ones) running through your system, as crazy as it may sound I think hormones have a more powerful pull than gravity Its very fortunate that 99.99999% of the men out there have full control of sexual urges because if men were any weaker.

[Lunacee2012]

85. I wish 99.99999% of men had that much control over themselves.

It would make women's lives a hell of a lot easier.

[Solly Mack]

19. No victim is ever responsible for "forced, unwanted sex against" their will.

[hifiguy]

20. No, but 3-5 are not intelligent ways to proceed

in terms of one's personal safety, especially 4.

[Chorophyll]

37. And yet none of those examples are the same as giving consent.

The onus is still on the other person to understand what rape is and NOT DO IT.

[hifiguy]

41. I agree completely. It isn't consent.

But I don't get staggering drunk and stumble around in certain parts of town with my pockets full of money, either. It isn't consent, but it isn't wise, either. That doesn't relieve the assaulting party of their responsibility, but the best thing for any person, man or woman, to do in any sketchy situation, is look out for their own well being.

[Chorophyll]

49. I know people who have been mugged WITHOUT being drunk or carrying lots of money.

And I sure as hell know people who've been raped without being drunk or dressed provocatively. Old women get raped, children get raped, and even men get raped.

Yes it's important for everyone to look out for their own well-being, but when a crime is committed -- any crime -- the only person to blame is the criminal.

[hifiguy]

57. On that we agree completely.

[tledford]

21. No. eom

[qb]

23. no

[Nikia]

26. No

The victim should never be blamed.

[Ohio Joe]

27. I did not even get to the starred statements...

"A woman is responsible for forced, unwanted sex"

I was able to stop right there because any forced, unwated sex is rape and never... Under any circumstances the fault of the victim.

[JHB]

28. None of the above

[Chorophyll]

29. NO.

Men are responsible for rape if they rape.

I feel that it really insults the intelligence of men when we assume they can't control themselves because a woman is drunk or dressed skimpily. I think they can.

Also, your wording ("crawls into bed," for example) already implies judgment on the woman.

Again, NO to all of the above.

[mistertrickster]

31. I used that wording because the original study

apparently used that wording.

I voted NO too, remember?

[Chorophyll]

34. Eek! Tell ya what,

I'm just a teensy bit on edge from all the abortion and rape threads of the last 48 hours.

Just a teensy bit, mind you.

On edit: you didn't include a link to the study in your OP, so I kind of blew by that and just answered.

[mistertrickster]

38. I know the feeling!

That was the point actually. I believe that it's not fair to say "people at DU are just as bad" about blaming the victim of rape as everybody else or even worse, "just as bad" as Cons about it.

I wanted some actual evidence to test this belief.

The original study is linked below . . .

[likesmountains 52]

32. Check out this poster from Stop Rape UK. Kind of explains who is responsible for rape

[mistertrickster]

43. This kinda steamed me off when I first saw it

on DU awhile back, because it seemed to imply that all men were just looking to take advantage of women.

But . . . on the other hand, some people (in this case, men) are really dumb. Look at all the McCain voters for instance.

So, it never hurts to make things clear. I like it fine now.

[kenfrequed]

33. No

No all the way.


I don't know why anyone would bother with the situations.

"A woman is responsible for forced, unwanted sex against her will if she..."

In no case is someone responsible for being the victim of violence or violent crime.

[Dokkie]

42. how about if a man/woman is

playing rape fantasy with another person and they happen to forget the safe word. In that scenario he/she is definitely responsible for being the victim of rape. Never say never. This is why I hate absolute laws like in NY where a man is responsible for rape if he has sex with a minor. It doesn't matter if she showed him a state issued license stating that she is 18yrs plus. He is thrown to jail, no if ands or buts.

Laws like these are designed to entrap men and men only

[kenfrequed]

60. Uhm...

Idiotic examples.

Whether or not there are exceptions, you didn't hit on one.

Statutory sexual offense was not what the OP was talking about. The definitions of this vary from state to state and entering this into the debate is a red herring. The OP was talking about violent and forced encounters.

Fantasy roleplay is an entirely different concern. No one I know that indulges in this behavoir has an 'always on' rule with regard to playing out their scenes. The initiation of the scenes is such that they prepare in advance so the other scenario you describe is entirely implausible and does not affect my opnion about consent and force and violence.

Violence is wrong. Done. End of friggin sentence.

[StopTheNeoCons]

35. No

No

[mistertrickster]

36. Here's the original survey results and link--

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8515592.stm

According to a London study on attitudes toward rape (linked above)

Almost three quarters of the women. . . said if a victim got into bed with the assailant before an attack they should accept some responsibility.

One-third blamed victims who had dressed provocatively or gone back to the attacker's house for a drink.

The survey of more than 1,000 people in London marked the 10th anniversary of the Haven service for rape victims.
More than half of those of both sexes questioned said there were some circumstances when a rape victim should accept responsibility for an attack.


I wanted some quantitative evidence that the oft expressed belief that "DUers would be no different than people like this" (who responded to this poll) was wrong

Looks like I got it.

Thank you to all those who responded.

[Ohio Joe]

46. WTF?

Are we reading different threads?

"I wanted some quantitative evidence that "DUers would be no different" than the people who responded to this poll . . .

Looks like I got it."

I'm not seeing any such thing... Which are the "One-third blamed victims who had dressed provocatively or gone back to the attacker's house for a drink."?

[mistertrickster]

48. That was in the original study

from London.

Sorry if I didn't make that clear before . . .

[Ohio Joe]

51. The link is from the study, I get that... It is your words I question...

You wrote:

"I wanted some quantitative evidence that "DUers would be no different" than the people who responded to this poll . . .

Looks like I got it."

How exactly is DU no different then the study? The results look a lot different to me based on the replies.

[mistertrickster]

55. Okay, right.

I was responding to those vociferous few who claim that "DUers would be no different . . . "

My DOH!

Let me try to clean that up, heh.

[Ohio Joe]

56. OK, sorry, I mis-understood

I thought you were drawing that conclusion based on what was here and did not get any connection to anything else.

[mistertrickster]

59. No, you were right.

Thanks for pointing that out.

Note to self: people can't see what one means, only what one writes.

[Dokkie]

50. I wish you would have asked

every responder to state their gender. I would love to know how it breaks down between the genders.

[mistertrickster]

52. Surprisingly, in the original study, women blamed the victim

more than men did.

Probably not what most people would have expected . . .

[OriginalGeek]

39. No and furthermore

She can say "NO" in the middle of it after previously having been agreeable to it.

If she says STOP, you stop and get the fuck out of her vagina.


If you keep going you are raping. And if I'm her daddy and she tells me about it, you have more problems.
If I am friends with her mom or dad and one of them tells me about it and asks for my help, you have more problems.
If I am a passerby and hear her holler you will have problems.

Don't. Fucking. Rape.



I know it's easy to sit here and keyboard warrior so you will just have to either take my word on my sincerity or don't. I have a wife and a daughter and 2 granddaughters. I am fucking sincere.

[Spazito]

40. Non-consensual sex is rape....

full stop, imo.

[mistertrickster]

45. Yup, I totally agree with that actually.

I just wanted to get an idea how common that concept was here at DU.

[lapislzi]

44. None of the above.

We can talk about poor judgment all we want, and how it sometimes leads to very bad outcomes.

But, when did wrong stop being wrong? No matter what level of impaired judgment is shown by a victim (of any crime), the responsibility lies with the criminal who chose to exploit the poor judgment of the victim.

Up to and including drunk people falling into bed with people who might be predisposed to try to have sex with them.

Like it or not, there are moral absolutes in this world, and nothing excuses rape.

[malaise]

47. No n/t

[UrbScotty]

53. No.

[Liberal_in_LA]

54. NO

[geardaddy]

58. That would be a NO.

[Muskypundit]

61. No to all of it

Being an easy Target does not make you less of a victim, or the criminal any less... But excercise common sense.

[mistertrickster]

62. Right . . . I wonder how much of this

"shocking" conclusion (of the survey) was just how one defines "responsible for."

A woman putting herself into a situation that makes rape more likely is a decision could be interpreted as irresponsible behavior by some, while at the same time it would not, as the study concludes, be blaming the victim for her rape.

[MrScorpio]

63. There's no excuse for rape

None whatsoever

[bigwillq]

64. No (nt)

[RebelOne]

65. No, no, no, a thousand times no! n/t

[saras]

66. An easy and obvious no - by definition, not by judgment.

"A woman is responsible for forced, unwanted sex against her will..."

Never. By definition. A man either. Or a child. Or someone of more complex gender. Or an animal, for that matter. Or even a watermelon, or a cucumber, or a manufactured silicone device.

It would lead to a logical contradiction, that is, if she were responsible for it then it would not be against her will, by definition. Unless you hold certain religious beliefs, in which case there is a divine order opposed to the natural order your will evolved to function in, and you must obey THAT order and not this one to avoid 'responsibility', and all of the 'correct' life is against your will. But that's a whole 'nother story.

Sex aside, the question of how much force you can legally use on someone is pretty ugly and nearly always settled in court, not by contract or common-law agreement. But threatening someone with any weapon or physical harm for any reason is usually criminal and I don't see why sex should be an exception.

So, no, as I've said before, I don't think there are any appropriate circumstances anywhere for forced, unwanted, against his/her will sex. And if I thought there were such, it would be as punishment for some heinous crime, not a risk that everyone takes while dating.

An example - a heterosexual couple is having joyful, voluntary, loving sex, and the guy is five seconds from orgasm when her back goes out, but she doesn't, or can't explicitly explain in words - should he finish?

Aside from the mass media lying about them, apparently every single time, what's so hard to get about "no means no" and "stop means stop"?

Personally I think that if you're too drunk to fuck that you shouldn't, but I also understand that if this were enforced, the quantity of sex in America would drop by some depressingly large proportion. So maybe part of the answer lies in separating "too-drunk-to-fuck" issues from the other rape cases. Discrimination against women is intolerable (and illegal) but discrimination against drunks I can live with.

[provis99]

67. flamebait.

[mistertrickster]

68. That wasn't my intention, and after 60 posts

I don't see any flame posts.

[Vincardog]

69. NO

[LeftishBrit]

70. No.

[curlyred]

71. What the hell?!? NO

Why even ask such flamebait nonsense?

[Snarkoleptic]

72. NO

Imagine the creepy responses if this were posted over at freeperville?

[LadyHawkAZ]

73. "A woman is responsible for forced, unwanted sex against her will if"... NO

Any statement after this phrase is NO. It doesn't matter what the statement is, it's still NO.

[Prophet 451]

74. None of them

Number four demonstrates making a poor decision (getting passing out drunk is almost always a bad idea) but that's all and a poor decision doesn't mean the victim is responsible for being raped, in whole or in part.

Sex without consent (or where either party is incapable of giving consent) is both morally wrong and a crime. Always. It is morally wrong for a man to rape a woman, for a man to rape a man, for a woman to rape a man (yes, that's possible) or for a woman to rape a woman.

And I'm a guy, if it matters.

[libodem]

75. No

[Withywindle]

76. No, no, and HELL NO. n/t

[TriMera]

77. No to all of the above. n/t

[Boombaby]

78. I'm against it

Rape is Wrong. And I don't care how many flames I get for this, dammit!

[DuaneBidoux]

79. No..never RESPONSIBLE under those circumstances but...(I may get creamed for this)

there are indeed actions that any adult (see last paragraph) can take in analyzing any situation that may either increase or decrease risk.

You might choose to walk down a dark alley in a bad neighborhood and you will increase your likelyhood of being mugged but if you stuck to a lighted pathway with lots of people you might be less likely to be attacked. No matter which of the two situations occurs you are never responsible for the criminal actions of another.

There is no way no how a women under the circumstances listed is ever responsible in the sense of to blame. But I don't care whether you are a man, woman, straight, gay or whatever going home with someone you barely know is more risky than if you decided not to go home with that stranger.

There it is. I'm ready for the onslaught.

Oh and by the way anyone, man, woman or child can be raped (there have been plenty of boys who have discovered this and for them not only are they not responsible one cannot say they made "wise" or "unwise" decisions because a child cannot make such decisions by virtue of being a child).

[WhoIsNumberNone]

80. Definitely No on 1 & 2

The others I don't think she deserves to get raped, but she should have sense enough not to put herself into those situations. You've got to take some measure of responsibility for your own safety. Take pedestrians vs cars for example; The law holds drivers responsible for not hitting pedestrians in pretty much any circumstance, but it doesn't make you any less of a dumbass if you step into the street against the light.

A final thought on number 4- While I do think it's asking for trouble when a woman gets herself passed out drunk, I have particular contempt for any man that has sex with an unconscious woman- an act which I consider only a heartbeat away from necrophilia- but it's also a particularly cowardly way of forcing oneself on a woman.

[NashvilleLefty]

81. WTH? BAD "poll" question!

First of all, you prejudice the poll by stating "forced, unwanted sex against her will" when that is the whole question. "forced, unwanted sex against her will " is NEVER ok, but the real question as presented by your poll is when a guy recognizes that it is "forced, unwanted sex against her will".

First of all, I want to say that I am a strong believer in "NO means NO". But I also want to point out that many of us in the older generation were "your lips say No, but your eyes say Yes" generation. The point I'm trying to make here is that many guys are confused by conflicting signals.

I'm going to try to be clear here, but I'm guessing many people will still misinterpret what I am trying to say. But somehow I still feel the need to try.

Gentlemen, NO means NO. But Ladies, you have to tell us NO, and repeat it!

Many of the options given in this poll are pretty plain NO - but I have to take issue with the last option. If a woman crawls into bed with a man, then she should make it clear to him up front before she crawls into bed NO SEX.

Drinking can lead to lowered inhibitions and bad decisions. For BOTH sexes! If 2 people are drunk and have sex, I can't honestly say that either of them "deserved" any consequences. If, however, a guy purposely got a woman drunk so as to take advantage of her, then he is guilty of rape.


Bottom line, this is NOT a "black and white issue" and needs to be decided on an individual basis. Polls like this are contra-productive.

OK, flame me. I'll probably be in bed and won't be able to respond, but my postition is "it's complicated" and I'm NOT trying to denigrate women or women's rights in any way, shape, form, or fashion. I'm just trying to point out that there is more than one way to look at any issue.

[lapislzi]

89. The questionable wisdom of my mother

Who belonged to the generation of which you speak.

First off, I commend you for at least trying to address the nuances of this issue.

My mother was part of the "hard to get" set. We never saw eye to eye on this issue. She was horrified by my sexual forthrightness, which I come by naturally (no thanks to mom!) I always thought that game-playing, false modesty, and coyness just muddied the waters--exactly as you point out in your post. But, in my mom's day, heaven forfend that a woman come out and say that she wanted sex. That would automatically brand her a slut, a nympho, a fast gal, or any other pejorative moniker from back in the day. Even married women couldn't "want" sex. It just wasn't done, at least that was the way I learned it.

My mother's other piece of precious wisdom--a corollary to the first was (and I quote): "a stiff prick has no conscience." That is, men cannot be held responsible for their sexual behavior, especially if the woman failed to exhibit the required demureness and timidity. Men! They're just animals, you see.

In my mother's dysfunctional little universe, women bore all the responsibility for what occurred in a sexual encounter.

So, I can see where that mind-set lingers. But we know better now, don't we?

As for bad judgment...well, sometimes bad judgment does lead to bad outcomes, especially when one of the parties lacks sufficient morality to act correctly in the situation. But that doesn't erase the wrongness of having sex with an partner unwilling or unable to consent to the act. That outcome is never the fault of the unwilling or unable party.

Am I making sense?

[Son of Gob]

82. No.

[totodeinhere]

83. I vote no. But having said that, obvioulsy a woman should not be getting so drunk that she passes

out. That's just stupid. And it's not wise to go to a stranger's apartment after drinking at a bar. But that doesn't mean that she deserves to be raped. No woman ever deserves that no matter how careless she is.

[Lunacee2012]

84. No! A woman is never at fault if she is raped. EVER. nt

Last edited Wed Feb 8, 2012, 04:16 AM - Edit history (1)

ETA: it really is that black and white. If you are not sure if she wants to have sex, then just ask her! It's not that hard and you will be so glad you did in the morning. Even if she says no and you don't get laid, at least you avoided raping a woman.

[Zalatix]

86. No nyet nay nein!

[ZombieHorde]

87. No. nt

[varelse]

90. NO

It's not that complicated. Really.