For those who insist on bringing up past legal troubles of people like Charles Ramsey or Neil Heslin

[Tommy_Carcetti]

If what you are best known for is what you have done on your best day, and not your worst, you rightfully deserve all the accolades you receive.

John 8: 7 rings true, whether you are religious or not.

[hobbit709]

1. There's lots of casters here.

Along with plenty who won't forgive past sins that are no more.

[cali]

2. Ramsay did a good thing. that doesn't excuse the fear and misery he inflicted on his family

I'm sorry, but I've lived through domestic violence and it leaves a lasting mark. I've forgiven my ex and actually get along with him, but the kindnesses he's shown me over the years- and he has- don't excuse the damage done.

[demmiblue]

5. Wow

[Puzzledtraveller]

6. Seriously

[boston bean]

7. holy fuck!

[randome]

8. You need to delete this post.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[zerosumgame0005]

12. why?

because it does not go along with the meme you try to push?

[randome]

16. Because it unfairly blames a victim of domestic abuse.

There are no extenuating circumstances to justify beating one's spouse. None.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[boston bean]

20. No it goes against the meme the poster and now you seem to be pushing.

That someone might have deserved to be beaten and abused.

[zerosumgame0005]

27. who deserves to be beaten?

From the post we are replying to the woman was doing the beating, no clue if the guy was being a passive-aggressive prick or not. but just like a woman being a nagging shrew (no not ALL women) does not mean she deserves to be beaten, that does not make it the guys fault for being abused either. you don't seem to be too good at that reading thing...

[boston bean]

29. The poster said to an abused woman

did she ever think she may have been the reason she was beaten. Right in the first sentence. not sure how you missed that.

Get a clue, get lost, and leave me alone creep.

[madokie]

34. I simply made a statement to maybe let someone see that spousal abuse sometimes is a two way

street and gave examples of that. I had no intention of implying that the person being hit is the cause simply that that there could be a reason they were hit to begin with. My apologies if I came across as suggesting what you are accusing me of. I gave an explanation of why I see spousal abuse as I do. Not all times what I said is true but sometimes as I said it is.

I just came back in from unloading a pickup load of dirt for my garden or I would have responded earlier.

I'm 65 years old and I had to remove myself from a situation where I was hit by my, at the time, girlfriend. We weren't meant for each other and as soon as I realized that, when she hit me, I left the relationship rather than try to hang on to the point where I was being abused. I loved the girl and it was hard for me to walk away but that was the right thing to do before it escalated to more serious abuse. We're still friends to this day BTW

Now I be leaving to forage for Morel mushrooms as we've had a few days of rain and they should be up if it isn't too late. why I'm telling you this is in case you expect me to add to what I've said and I don't respond in the time frame you might expect me too.
Have a good day
Please pay attention to the entirety of what someone writes the next time.

[boston bean]

42. I read what you wrote.

Your first line was disgusting and off putting. How dare you insinuate a victim of domestic violence may be responsible for the actions of their abuser.

[bravenak]

46. No, you say maybe she was the reason......

You need more experience with victims of abuse. There are a whole lot of us around to help educate you so you can be more sensitive in the future.
Now, pay attention to what you are writing next time to a victim of abuse.
There is a lot of trauma associated with abuse that lasts for the rest of your life.
It's scary when the man you love is cool one minute and flashes on you for no damn reason the next! When you never know what might set him off.
She don't need you to be tellin her maybe it was her fault. She's been through enough, obviously.

[madokie]

50. My apologies

I had no intention of being taken as what I wrote was, again I apologize

[cali]

59. so you think I deserved it.

it's funny, because like a lot of women, I tried to modify my behavior. I walked on egg shells. That helped nothing.

Do you think I deserved my ex-husband going to a prostitute and having unprotected sex while I was pregnant and then having unprotected sex with me? And telling me this just after I got out of the hospital for bleeding and while we were visiting my parents?

Do you think I deserved being spat on?

Do you think I deserved having my breasts grabbed and twisted so hard you could see every fingerprint in bruise form?

[CreekDog]

64. no, here's what you said

madokie (36,332 posts)
4. Could you have been a part of the reason that you're ex did as he did?

and within that you said:

My experience with being a witness to domestic violence indicates to me that it takes two to tangle.

deleting your statement was a good idea, but misrepresenting what you said in it is wrong.

[bullwinkle428]

9. So you're saying the majority of abusers are women, but female victims had

it coming for the most part?

I really hope there's some kind of explanation for this post.

[redqueen]

10. That's a popular MRA talking point, actually.

Does this look familiar to anyone here?

Feminism needs domestic violence
...

Professional feminists, that’s who. Without DV victims, feminists would have no rallying cry, and they would lose political power. Here’s how it works:
...

Who commits a substantial proportion of DV? Past victims or witnesses of DV. Who committed the DV that they experienced or witnessed? In too many cases to count, it is women. Women commit far more than half of all DV. Among the vast majority of violent couples, the violence is mutual. Additionally, women commit the majority of child abuse. Yes, women are responsible for most DV.

...

http://www.avoiceformen.com/mens-rights/domestic-violence-industry/feminism-needs-domestic-violence/

And this article is MUST READ stuff.

Attack of the 50-Foot Feminist Agenda

...

Aptaker’s story underscores a disturbing trend: Men’s rights groups, convinced that men are the biggest victims of modern society, have been busy attacking, defunding, and repealing laws that have been very effective at protecting women and lowering rates of domestic violence. And rather than just ranting and raving on the Internet, these men have been pulling political levers to change both state and federal laws. That they’ve done so with remarkable success ought to make everyone very, very scared.

...

Nationally, groups like Stop Abusive and Violent Environments (SAVE) and A Voice for Men have helped slow the renewal of the Violence Against Women Act—which would provide $660 million in funding for shelters, legal aid, and other programs to protect battered women—by convincing conservative House Republicans that the law shouldn’t include immigrants, Native Americans, and LGBT victims. SAVE claims the law is biased, noting in a fact sheet titled “Seven Key Facts About Domestic Violence” that “female initiation of partner violence is the leading reason for the woman becoming a victim of subsequent violence.” In other words: She was asking for it, officer.

...

And men’s groups are having successes like this all over the country. Rita Smith of the National Coalition Against Domestic Violence told the Southern Poverty Law Center’s Intelligence Report that such groups have “taken over the courts,” and that they have “been able to get custody evaluators, mediators, guardians ad litem, and child protective service workers to believe that women and children lie about abuse.”

...

But that’s all the more reason that civil rights and women’s groups need to wake up and get involved, something they’ve been slow to do. When I spoke to Toni Troop of Jane Doe Inc., a Massachusetts sexual assault and domestic violence advocacy group, she assured me that “People see through their rhetoric and their repeated attempts to undermine safety for the real victims of domestic violence.” Really? Then why have they been so successful at changing the law? More women’s and mothers’ groups need to start attending these meetings and demanding a seat at the table.

...

http://www.bostonmagazine.com/2012/08/angry-men-feminist-agenda/

[zerosumgame0005]

18. so you are blaming all men

for those reactions?

[boston bean]

22. No, blaming men who abuse and the men who make excuses for the abuser.

[redqueen]

24. WTF? How the hell did you get that from my post?

I'm pointing out that this is a talking point used by MRAs as part of their propaganda campaign to roll back women's rights.

[zerosumgame0005]

28. oh so what you are saying is

If someone objects to you they are abusers? Thanks for that clarification Mr. Cheney...

[boston bean]

32. No saying that someone who defends someone who says the abused

may have deserved what happened to them, is possibly sick in the head.

[redqueen]

36. ...

[bravenak]

41. LOL.

No really, you made me spit my cereal!

[zerosumgame0005]

13. where does it say anything close to that?

ONE case is told and no condemnation of all women is in it at all.

[redqueen]

30. Here:

My experience with being a witness to domestic violence indicates to me that it takes two to tangle.

That's not one case. He's talking about EVERYONE he's known that's been in any situation which involves domestic violence.

He's real careful to word salad around it elsewhere in the post, but this stands out like a flashing neon light.

[madokie]

48. Bullshit

You are reading a lot more into this than I intended
I guess this is the post du jour of the day at du.
I'll delete my post as it is being taken totally wrong by most who've replied

[redqueen]

49. No. It's nothing "du jour", it's just another sad example of victim blaming.

Your subject line and the part I quoted don't leave much to the imagination.

[CreekDog]

65. those were your words and the other words blamed Cali for what happened to her

you can change your mind now that we've taken you to task, but you can't deny what you wrote.

[bullwinkle428]

63. Re-read his post. Some of us have finely tuned bullshit detectors,

and can sort through it quite nicely.

[madokie]

35. Read what i wrote

I did not imply that at all.

[leftynyc]

15. What a nauseating post

You should be embarrassed and ashamed to post that here. Blaming the victim is something the other side of the aisle does and unless you've actually had someone you love kick the crap out of you, you are speaking out of your ass. Pacifist, my ass.

[madokie]

37. I'm not blaming the victim I'm simply pointing out that this sometimes is a two way street

and gave examples of where that was coming from.

Yes pacifist, me, you bet

[cali]

62. you insinuated that I deserved it. You have no fucking clue

none. and furthermore my kid sure as shit didn't deserve it.

[CreekDog]

66. you did blame: "Could you have been a part of the reason that you're ex as he did?"

My experience with being a witness to domestic violence indicates to me that it takes two to tangle.

maybe you are arguing some technicality (that is just as offensive) which blames the victim, partially, but not wholly, for getting abused.

if you seek vindication based on that, you don't get it.

[cali]

68. you are not telling the truth about what you said to me. PERIOD.

lying doesn't make it any fucking better.

[boston bean]

69. What he wrote to you was disgusting.

I can't apologize for him, but know that it is he who bears the shame of his words, if he has any at all.

[bravenak]

21. Whoa!

No, please don't say things like this to a victim of abuse.
You are giving the abusers an easy excuse.
Stop it.
Not all people can afford to just leave. Really. They have no money. Have been kept on a tight leash physically, and financially.
Of course she is not the reason he did what he did!
Why the heck would that thought even come into your head?
That's like saying she made him do it.

[ljm2002]

23. I'm going to go out on a limb here...

...and answer with my own experience.

I too have lived through domestic violence.

And no, I was not "part of the reason" that my own ex did as he did.

It took me a very, very long time to realize that it would never change. If he was in "one of his moods", there was NOTHING that I could do, or not do, that would change what was going to happen. NOTHING.

Now as for not being right for one another: well, yes. It's hard to be "right for" someone who has a Jekyll and Hyde personality.

By the way: have you stopped beating your wife? or in other words: fuck off.

[madokie]

40. fuck off to you

I've never struck a woman and further more I won't ever.
Read what I wrote and not read into it something I had no intention of saying and didn't say.

[ljm2002]

53. Oh I read what you wrote...

...and it was a standard screed of blame the victim. A victim who you have never met, but you decided to lecture on how she should think about whether or not she caused her own victimization. Because you, as an outside observer, saw other people who broke up and by golly, that abuser never abused again!

What a crock.

On edit: BTW, you obviously took my question personally. Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the fact that this is a rhetorical device often used by lawyers. "Have you stopped (insert unpleasant act here)?" is phrased such that the person can not answer "yes" or "no" without validating the premise that they engaged in the unpleasant act. I used it on you precisely because you were engaging in a form of that.

But in your case it is appropriate that you take it personally. The unpleasant act that you DID engage in was to blame the victim, in a very insidious way. So yes, fuck off.

[Nye Bevan]

43. "Maybe you had it coming", in other words.

Nice.

[madokie]

45. simply pointing out that sometimes this is a two way street

sorry I trampled on your sensitivities
I did not imply what you are saying at all but being you're going to read into what I wrote to suit what you want to believe I can't help that

[bravenak]

51. Sometimes it is. Most times it isn't.

Last man who hit me ended up with two black eyes and a broken nose.
I finally reacted violently instead of curling up into a ball waiting for it to end.
He never struck me again.
I even let him use my concealer, the one I usually used to cover up my bruises.
Watch what you say to victims. You may end up further victimizing someone.
Our abusers always place the blame on us, so that we feel partially responsible for their actions.
My mouth was what got me beat up. Let him tell it.
You can always delete your post.

[madokie]

52. I deleted it

Again my apologies

[bravenak]

56. I'm sorry for riding you so hard.

I get a little worked up.

[randome]

58. Kudos for staying harmonious on this thread!

[Democracyinkind]

44. Most dishusting post I've read so far on DU.

You should really really edit your first line, at the very least.

[madokie]

47. Did you read all of what I wrote?

If you had you would see its not as bad as you imply

[Democracyinkind]

57. I'ven read it all...

And even something equivalent to the sermon on the mount could not redeem the vileness of that first sentence. You could have framed that as a passive, indirect question.

[bravenak]

11. I'm sorry for what you have experienced.

His wife has truly forgiven him.
He does not make excuses for his past. At all.
He says he was a piece of shit.
His wife left him.
He also said if he could beat a woman in the past, then he could save a woman now.
He is trying to make up for the damage he has done to women. What more can he do as a man to show he has changed?
Why must we judge his past?

[boston bean]

17. Of course the two incidences can be separated out in ones mind.

One was a very good thing.

One was a very bad thing.

I don't see why both can't be discussed, do you?

[bravenak]

26. Of course they can.

His past made him more aware of things.
He thought he was saving a woman from domestic violence. His previous crime. He was trying to make up for his abuse of his wife by helping a lady.
He ended up saving 3 ladies and a child from a madman.
A man who beat 4 children out of their mothers womb, starved them, raped them, tortured them, and may have eventually killed them.
In this case, the good outweighs the bad.
I hope my former abuser would do the same in that situation.
He could have ignored her cries for help and finished his Big Mac.

[boston bean]

31. You can say the good outweighs the bad, you won't get an argument from me.

However, the woman he beat, at the time it was happening was a bad thing.

It's not something that should just be swept under the rug. I don't see a problem in pointing it out. Pointing it out does not necessarily mean one feels it takes away from his good deeds. But it shines a light on an all too common occurrence.

[bravenak]

38. Exactly!

This is his redemption song.
No longer an abuser of women, now he rescues the ladies.
The woman he beat forgives him.
And he spoke freely about his terrible past himself. Never does he even attempt to hide his crimes.
And he freely admits that he would have murdered the man and went on with his life.
Most abusers are liars too. Will never own up to anything.
I'll allow his victim to judge him if she so chooses.
I'll not do any judging, I'm so happy that the little birds have been let out of their cage and freed from that rapist before he got a chance to rape the little girl.
If you save me from a sicko, baby murdering pedo rape torturer, I'll call you a hero too.
And I won't even glance at your rap sheet.

[Bake]

60. People change. The power of forgiveness is incredible.

Funny how those who need forgiveness the most are often the ones least able to forgive others. Not you, necessarily, just in general.

Bake

[randome]

3. Much of the bringing up of past troubles has to do with the over-the-top reaction to Ramsay.

At least here on a message board, the tendency is to idolize someone who has done good. Ramsay did a great thing and he should be congratulated on that but some of the armchair psychologists here have made him out to be a saint.

No one is privy to his inner thoughts.

It's good to keep in mind that all saints are also sinners, that's all.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[zerosumgame0005]

14. so you figure it's your "job"

to make sure every man is condemned?

[randome]

19. I'm not condemning anyone.

I'm also not idolizing anyone.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[zerosumgame0005]

25. you're grumbling and mumbling

about what other people say that you object to. Not presenting any evidence except your OUTRAGE, just like Innsanity

[boston bean]

33. No, they are objecting to an obscene idea and thought

that some here are defending, like an victim of abuse may have done something to deserve it.

[BlueToTheBone]

39. wha?

[snooper2]

54. Man this thread went off the tracks quick

[randome]

55. No kidding! Some kind of perfect storm, I guess.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[Bake]

61. Good people sometimes do bad things.

Forgiveness is a powerful thing. Incredibly powerful.

I don't know much about Ramsey, but I know he did a very good thing recently. A VERY good thing.

Bake

[Blecht]

67. Strange -- I only see three responses

But at the time I write this DU reports that there are 66 responses.

THANK YOU, IGNORE BUTTON!

ON EDIT: Oops! I meant to respond to Snooper2 at #54. Sorry, Bake.