Law would stop Tesla electric car sales in NC

[JeffHead]

To date, 80 North Carolina residents have squeezed their savings for the bragging right of owning the Tesla Model S electric car, some paying more than $100,000 for their g-force ride, but they may be among the last.

A legislative proposal, backed by the N.C. Automobile Dealers Association, would make it illegal for Tesla, or any other car maker, to bypass dealerships and sell directly in the state. The proposal cuts at the heart of Tesla’s business model: selling luxury cars over the phone or Internet and then delivering them to the front door of high-net-worth customers.

Still, the proposal was unanimously approved by the state Senate’s Commerce Committee on Thursday, despite concerns about the state dictating who should be allowed to sell an automobile. North Carolina is the latest forum for the clash as auto dealers around the country have mobilized, mostly without success, in legislatures and in the courts to block Tesla’s direct car sales.

*snip*

http://www.newsobserver.com/2013/05/09/2883125/law-would-stop-tesla-electric.html

[Egalitarian Thug]

1. After a century of buying legislation in 50 states, never underestimate the power of the

automobile industry to force you to pay too much for an ongoing liability. Next to the NADA, the NRA is equivalent to the Black Panthers in their power to dictate the law.

[naaman fletcher]

53. "Automobile industry" is inaccurate

It's the car dealers. The manufacturers would be perfectly fine getting rid of the dealers.

[longship]

2. All new NC cars now have to be 60's muscle cars.

No ferriner stuff no more. Volvos are right out. It's all Stingrays and Dodge Challengers (rear wing mandatory) from now on. No engine smaller than 400 cu inch V-8 allowed, dual quads mandatory.

Welcome to NC.

[n2doc]

8. You forgot the F-350 dualies and Suburbans

No MPG larger than 20 allowed.

[longship]

12. 20 MPG??? What are ya, a communist?

I git 8 MPG in my Chevy 396. If that ain't good enuf fer you, ya can take yer Volvo back to Russia.

I'm savin' fer one dem HumVees. Now that's a real car.

[n2doc]

13. Diesel

I just like the sound of them and the big black clouds of soot they put out. But they do sometimes get 20 mpg....even the big 'uns

[longship]

14. Diesel? In a car?????

If gasoline and dual quads was good enuf fer Jesus, it's good enuf fer 'merka.



Fun, ain't this.

(Myself, I drive a 17 year old Volvo four cylinder. Rock solid and lasts forever. Still no rattles, even on my dirt road.)

[Thor_MN]

66. Diesel's a bastard fuel.

It ain't proper veehicle less'n it gots sparkplugs.

[Jamastiene]

71. And all the Humvees I see all over the place in my county.

I live in one of the poorest counties in NC. Yet, there are Humvees just about everywhere you look.

[rucky]

9. ...on blocks

in the front lawn

[frodoland]

35. i want one

i wad 16 in 1972

"Stingrays and Dodge Challengers (rear wing mandatory) ....... No engine smaller than 400 cu inch V-8 allowed, dual quads mandatory."

I wish I had one back then!!

[TeamPooka]

37. I had a 65 Mustang back in the day it was the late 70-early 80's when I had it

Maroon with a black interior
straight 6 engine
no radio
no seat belts
and yet my favorite car ever and I wish I still had it
Welcome to DU!

[malthaussen]

55. I hate you.

Damn, I wanted a Mustang so bad... of course, I was only 9 when they came out.

-- Mal

[TeamPooka]

56. I looked good in that car too.

[rickford66]

88. Get another one

I had a 66 GT 4-speed 289 225 HP back in1971. Now I have a 65 coupe I'm restoring, 302 bored out, 3 speed (4 speed if I can find a cheap one). You can get a real nice 6 cyl coupe for a few thousand. The V8's, manuals, convertibles and fastbacks get pricey. Insurance is less than $200 / year. I'm putting seat belts for sure. Half the fun so far is tracking down affordable new and used parts.

[hrmjustin]

40. Welcome to DU my friend!

[dogknob]

49. Yayyy! Welcome! n/t

[AverageJoe90]

44. TBH, I don't think so, man. In fact, they'd probably have outlawed those, too, if given the chance.

Many conservatives back in those days generally didn't like performance cars of any sort; if you've read up about hot rods, you'll know social reactionaries in the '50s hated them, not just because of their early association with rock and roll, but because they gave younger people a sense of freedom, as well; muscle cars had the same effect. In fact, if it hadn't been for NASCAR's significant popularity amongst those working-class Southerners too busy having fun with their lives to get pissed off at "Red Commies" or People of Color, I betcha they would have tried to pull a trick like this back then, too.

Poking fun at these idiots would have been more effective if you'd instead that "All new N.C. cars now have to be '70s & '80s jalopies, preferably not made with union labor. No engine with more than 6 cylinders allowed, poor performance & poor reliability + build quality mandatory. Pintos & Vegas only for blacks." A Dixiecrat's dream.....

[longship]

50. You may have something there, my friend. ;)

[naaman fletcher]

54. This has nothing to do with it being an electric car

It has to do with the dealers wanting to preserve their ability to gouge the customers by forcing every car sale to go through them whether necessary or not.

[paleotn]

81. Exactly.....

...this day and time, the conventional dealership model is a superfluous waste and manufacturers know it. A very politically connected dinosaur, unfortunately.

[L0oniX]

59. Re-issue the blue metalic 1968 Plymouth GTX w/440w ...only a Super Bee beat me...

damned tri power shit!

[RKP5637]

76. And NO car is permitted to get better than 4.5 mpg. n/t

[Apophis]

94. I was thinking NC's state car would be the El Camino.

[Laurian]

3. Since the last election, North Carolina

has gone backwards. The new Governor there is a real piece of work and apparently the North Carolina legislature wants to compete with South Carolina for Tea Party bragging rights.

[Jamastiene]

72. You can say that again.

McCrory is the worst governor of NC in my lifetime. You forgot to mention that this legislature in NC also wants to make an official state religion in NC too.

[ljm2002]

4. Interesting how businesses want less government interference...

...unless the government can interfere to prevent another business from engaging in competition with them.

What gives government the right to dictate a business model? Other than public safety, prevention of fraud, or things like that?

And how does this fit in with their preferred "small government" approach to governance?

[Lunacee_2013]

36. I've noticed that too.

And why is it always "sink or swim" for the little guy, but not for big business?

[silverweb]

5. Stupidity reigns in the Carolina legislatures.

[font color="navy" face="Verdana"]But this bit is no big deal.

Anyone who can afford a Tesla can afford to buy whatever they want wherever they want.

[gateley]

7. That's a good point.

[gateley]

6. An S costs $100K? I know the Roadster did, but I thought this model was

less.

Anyway, it sucks. This is an American company who has achieved a LOT in helping overcome the "golf cart" image of electric cars.

Their business model is to keep introducing less expensive models and eventually be able to produce an all electric vehicle that is priced competitively with other automobiles.

[joshcryer]

29. The long distance battery brings it up to $90k.

I can imagine a few other optional things taking it up to $100k.

http://www.teslamotors.com/models/options

[gateley]

33. Ah, I guess I was thinking of the "entry level" model.

[joshcryer]

48. Yeah, it's going to be interesting if they can bring the price down.

As it stands now it's only meager at most. A consumer level car needs to be able to go 200+ miles on a charge. So they have to be considering that.

[gateley]

51. I wish them success!

[kenny blankenship]

10. Tesla will shoot it out in federal court.

Constitutional issue: Illegal restraint of trade.

http://evworld.com/news.cfm?newsid=30034

[elleng]

27. and win;

clearly unconstitutional.

[happyslug]

95. How? Each state has the right to regulate trade within its borders

A State can NOT forbid the importation of items made outside the state, if the same item made in the state is legal to sell. On the other hand a State can FORBID the sale of items within its borders, if such a law applies to both sellers within the state and sellers outside the state.

Alcohol is a big exception, when Prohibition was repealed, the repeal also redefined how alcohol can be sold within the states. Here is the appeal of Prohibition Amendment:

AMENDMENT XXI
Passed by Congress February 20, 1933. Ratified December 5, 1933.

Section 1.
The eighteenth article of amendment to the Constitution of the United States is hereby repealed.

Section 2.
The transportation or importation into any State, Territory, or Possession of the United States for delivery or use therein of intoxicating liquors, in violation of the laws thereof, is hereby prohibited.

Notice the language of Section 2, previous to Prohibition the Federal Courts had ruled it was unconstitutional for a State to make it illegal to import alcohol into the borders of a State, even if that State made such importation, possession, and use illegal. The Federal Courts had ruled if it was legal in a "Wet" State to make and ship Alcohol, the fact it was being shipped to a "Dry" State, which forbade Alcohol could NOT be made a crime for all acts were done in the "Wet" State not the "Dry" State. The courts did rule once in the "Dry" State the "Dry" State could confiscate the Alcohol, but only if it was clearly for use within the "Dry" State. Section 2 of the Repeal of Prohibition was to address this problem, a problem that had been one of reason for passing Federal Prohibition in the first place. Thus a state can make it a crime to IMPORT alcohol to into that state, even if the importers NEVER stepped into that state.

Notice, this is a narrow exception to the previous rule. applying only to Alcohol.

On the other hand, the Federal Courts that had ruled that it was unconstitutional for a State to forbid the importation of Alcohol into that same State, had also ruled against other forms of State Economic Regulation, a position reversed in the 1930s when the Courts started to permit the States to better regulate commerce.

Thus today, States have more leeway in regulation of commerce then the State had prior to the Great Depression. In many ways, Section 2 of the Repeal of Prohibition, while itself restricted to Alcohol, became the general rule from the Great Depression onward.

This gets to be complicated when it comes to large ticket items, like cars. If a regulation is clearly intended to favor in state car sellers, it violates the rights of sellers in other states. On the other hand, if a state just passes a law that all cars, sold to residence, must be through a dealer, even of the dealer is NOT within the borders of the State, that is a "Neutral" meant to regulate commerce not favor in state businesses over out of state businesses.

In the case of Tesla, this is an issue Car Dealers have fought since the end of WWII, i.e. trying to force all new car sales through dealers instead of through other means of commerce. Can the States regulate Commerce? The answer is clearly yes, UNLESS the regulation has more to do with discriminating against sellers of the item who happen to be from other States then with protecting consumers. The Federal Court will defer to the State Legislature when it comes to such determination UNLESS it can be clearly shown protection of in state interests was more important then protecting consumers.

Tesla is the largest seller of high price items whose business model do NOT use local dealers (Computers are no longer high price, even when home computers cost a couple of thousand dollars, no one considered them a true high price item like an automobile, computers could be purchased locally, but also shipped in, thus no push for special laws to protect sellers of Computers, unlike Automobile dealers who have fought for such laws since WWII).

Tesla has a valid constitutional argument, that such a law restricts out of state "dealers" from doing business within those states with such restrictions. Please note that is an argument not the law. The States also have a valid constitutional argument, the State's right to regulate commerce to protect consumers permit them to require all Automobile sale occur through dealers. It will be interesting how the courts will rule.

[HooptieWagon]

87. Agreed.

Higher courts should find such a law unconstitutional.
Tesla could also sidestep the law by setting up a one-man storefront "dealership"...a kiosk in a mall even.

[baldguy]

11. Communist bastards!

[moondust]

15. Government picking the winners.

And the losers.

[rdharma]

16. I'll have to run that offer by the sales manager..........

Oops! There IS no sales manager.

How are they going to play these games when you're dealing directly with the manufacturer?

Dang! I'll miss that!

[IDemo]

26. I like you folks, tell ya' what I'm gonna do. Now, the boss ain't gonna like it..

Haven't purchased a car in 20 years. Man, do I miss those stealerships!

[Canuckistanian]

17. NC again?

These days whenever I hear something outrageous or downright incredible, I find it's from NC.

What is it about that state? Some collective insanity?

They're seriously challenging Florida as the most f***ed-up state since Independence.

[rdharma]

28. At least we're not Mississippi!

That used to be Alabama's state motto.... but I'm ripping it off for NC!

[Jamastiene]

73. My, how far we have fallen in NC.

I was proud of it turning blue in 2008...then McCrory and all his tea party asshole buddies took it all.

[GeorgeGist]

18. fucking with interstate commerce?

I don't think so.

[mbperrin]

19. There ya go with that pesky Constitution again!

I swear, every time they violate the Constitution, you start up with that "they're violating the Constitution" stuff!

[GiaGiovanni]

21. :)

[Jamastiene]

74. Well, basically, this current legislature in NC is totally eschewing the US Constitution

in favor of going by the state constitution only. They want to mandate an official state religion and basically say the US Constitution no longer applies in NC.

[mbperrin]

80. The Texas Legislature just passed a bill that makes it a felony for state or local law enforcement

to allow federal laws on gun control to be enforced.

I gotta admit, you got me topped on the state religion, though! Never thought I'd see the day the Texas Lege could be out-dumbed!

[dsc]

84. in fairness the religion thing didn't pass

so texas keeps its crown for now.

[mbperrin]

85. Well, all righty then!

[paleotn]

82. much less that mucho fabulous, God given gift

...the so called "free market." I guess their theology goes only skin deep.

[dembotoz]

20. years ago dune buggies were all the rage--put a new body on an old drivetrain

would they be illegal to sell too.

what about used cars/??

[mick063]

22. It doesn't matter anyway.

We have passed the threshold for saving the planet from greenhouse gases.

You can't stop the locomotive pulling a hundreds cars soon enough to stop the collision at the intersection.

The train wreck is imminent.

[Junkdrawer]

25. As I've said: we're not going to just crash the ship into the dock....

We're going to drive this puppy to Des Moines

[Junkdrawer]

23. Didn't NC "legislate" maximum sea level rise a few years ago....

Seriously. I think there's a law that the ocean can only rise so much.

Don't remember what the the punishment is or who has to do time in the stir if it does.

[Trajan]

30. Xerxes ...

According to the Greek historian Herodotus, Xerxes's first attempt to bridge the Hellespont ended in failure when a storm destroyed the flaxand papyrus cables of the bridges: Xerxes ordered the Hellespont (the strait itself) whipped three hundred times and had fetters thrown into the water. Xerxes's second attempt to bridge the Hellespont was successful

[Junkdrawer]

32. Silly me. It's a successful strategy after all.

[sofa king]

60. "That'll show it!"

[Junkdrawer]

90. THAT is a keeper!!!

At the Man vs Nature soccer match, the score is:

Nature: 10,000

Man: 2

and we break our arms patting ourselves on the back because we put 2 points on the board.

[Junkdrawer]

91. Reposted as an OP here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022836519

[sofa king]

92. Very cool!

[Dash87]

89. You're under arrest, God.

Take him out in cuff- erm... We'll just let you off with a warning this time.

[ThoughtCriminal]

24. I'd love to hear them explain

how this works with their free market capitalism religious dogma.

[Trajan]

31. Easy answer ..

BENGHAZI!

[TeamPooka]

39. lol - you just gave me a vision of Abbott & Costello doing a Benghazi version of Who's on 1st

[freshwest]

46. Yep! BENGHAZI = LIBERTY & FREEDUMB! Just do as they tell you!

[ruffburr]

34. Why is it I'm not surprised?

[TeamPooka]

38. They should call it the "we want our piece of the action" law

[dballance]

41. I Foresee a Commerce Clause Court Case in NC's Future

I'm not an attorney, but I'm going to bet Tesla's legal team will be filing a case that the law is unconstitutional under the commerce clause (as in, the Feds, not the states, have the right to regulate interstate commerce).

Anybody who's smarter than me, which leaves a whole lot of open territory chime in. Any real attorneys out there please comment.

[freshwest]

47. Sounds reasonable. They can only prohibit intrastate. *Not an attorney*

[ZRT2209]

42. that is F'D up

[ZRT2209]

43. FREE MARKET HYPOCRITES

[AverageJoe90]

45. Not surprised at this kind of stupidity.

Hell, I betcha these same people woulda done the same to muscle cars and hot rods back in the '60s if they thought they could get away with it; the only major difference there was NASCAR was hugely popular amongst working-class people too busy to make a fuss about "them culluds" or "Red Caumies", and the Big Three woulda thrown a major hissy fit if they even thought about it. Unfortunately, Tesla may not be so lucky.....

Somebody seriously needs to petition Raleigh and tell them to take this ridiculous proposal off the table.....and not to mention the crass hypocrisy as well!

[riverbendviewgal]

52. There should be a NASCAR for Electric cars only

That would be so cool...!!!!

[Spitfire of ATJ]

57. Next we will hear them claim all USED cars must be from a dealer...

They will claim it's a "safety" issue because someone purchased a car with bad brakes.

As if used car dealers can all be trusted to give you a top notch product.

[adieu]

58. They may or may not be trusted

but there will be documentation that you may not have with a private transaction, which are usually "as is" to remove liability from the seller.

[msskwesq]

61. Unconstitutional

Violates the Commerse Clause of the Constitution.

[Demoiselle]

96. The phrase "restraint of trade" came into my head when I read this.

I have no idea whether it's relevant or not...but it seems to me that the right to "trade" is a pretty basic common law right.
I can't believe that this legislation could make it through the courts...(?)

[20score]

62. They believe in Freedom Smog!

[bluemarkers]

63. my home state legislature is doin'

good working, fixing the libural mess from the past 50 or so years.....

if only the sate religion bill had made it out of committee


omg, seriously, totally mortifying these tea baggers. They owe their allegiance to the Koch brothers and are cranking out pieces of bs like clock work. I don't recall any of these bills being part of any campaign... so hard to believe, eh?

[jmowreader]

64. They will probably use their business licensing laws to justify this

"If y'all can't give someone a $10 haircut without a license from the state, why should y'all be allowed to sell that same person a $100,000 car without one?"

The best part of all this is the Republicans have, once again, proven that business shouldn't have to suffer any government intrusion unless a businessman wants the government to intrude on another businessman...and then watch out.

[gopiscrap]

65. I can't fathom why

we have so many ignorant fucks in elected positions in this country?

[Monk06]

67. RWers, "Let the market decide. Except when it desides agin us!!" Plus what are the chances that

any millionaire car dealer, "and they are all millionaires", is a Republican. Can we say 100%? Plus the so called free market Repugs hate competition and do the best to rig the market in their favor.

[lrellok]

68. Free the markets!

From the horrors of meaningful competition.

It has always amused me the extent to which the republican party will stoop, abandoning any pretense of caring about anything other then the interests of the .01%. Markets must be free, until a competitive product starts costing our campaign donor's money. Regulations must go, except those that force people to continue buy overpriced products. Freedom is sacred, except that of women to control their own bodies. The constitution must be followed to the letter, except the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 14th, 15th, 16th, 17th, 19th, 24th and 26th amendments. ect, ect.

[WCGreen]

69. Isn't that interfearnce in the free flow of commerce...

fuck these people.

I bet their grandpappies were making it hard on the horseless carriage because the buggy whip industry would flounder.

[nikto]

70. North Carolina is not allowed...

To defy Corporate desires.

[mwooldri]

75. Yes, this proposed NC law is crass ... but ...

... is there a law that would prevent a vehicle manufacturer from owning its dealerships? Failing that, I suppose Tesla can get a dealers' license from somewhere (hopefully one that doesn't tax car sales) and then deliver this out-of-state dealer sold vehicle into NC. A nice Tesla agent can then help the new owner with the NC tax and registration process.

Or let things be the way they are now... since this would be against inter-state commerce. Just because the auto dealers are unhappy that Tesla is doing business differently... sorry they can lump it. Now if Ford or GM or Chrysler/Fiat want to go direct then the dealers have a valid point.

[Bay Boy]

77. Of course this has nothing to do with the Tesla...

...and everything to do with the car dealers not wanting direct sales.
Reminds me of Michigan when they wanted to have evening and weekend hours at dealerships. The salesmen practically rioted.

[GETPLANING]

78. It's not that the Tesla is an electric car.

Car dealerships are increasingly owned by large corporations who hate competition. If Tesla sold gas and diesel pickup trucks direct, the dealer associations would still protest, because they want control of the market.

Car dealership groups like Group 1 Auto and Sonic Automotive buy up and control dealerships so they can enage in price-fixing, both on the sales side and the employee cost side. Retail customers end up paying far more than retail prices, and employee pay is kept below certain limits. This guarantees profits for the shareholders and enormous pay packages for upper management.

And the only industry more right wing than oil and gas is car and truck sales. There is literally no one they will not screw over for a buck.

[Autumn Colors]

79. Someone from NC can fly to CA to buy

At this point, Tesla's are so expensive than anyone who can actually afford one, probably has the money to fly to CA, buy and register the car there, and then pay to have it transported it back to NC and reregister it there.

What a dumb law. Maybe in the future, the cost of the car will come down, but at this point, the class of consumer who is able to buy them probably can fly out there on their own private jet.

[bobclark86]

83. So?

Sure, it sucks to go through a dealer... but so do Teslas... Oh, and they get half of the sale price in carbon credits from California, as well as other subsidies (which are the reason it's still around). Why do we have to give out so much so some 1%ers can have new toys?

This sums up my feelings about this one:

That said, this is what lobbying does to you (dealers pay a crapload in sales and property tax, so they spend a crapload of money on state and local lobbying).

[Tab]

86. There's no need for a law for this

If the dealers provide a better value, they will win. Someone springing for a Tesla might want a nearby dealer anyway. But if you're going to plunk down $100k or whatever it is for a Tesla, no little law is going to stop you - you just get it from the next state over. Hey, same thing with guns!

[EC]

93. Well, those who could afford a Tesla

likely have out of state residences where they can order their car from.