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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsI'm sorry but where have the parents been?
Little kids cling to chairs and desks as their "shelter" while the high school up the street enjoys a multi-million dollar football stadium.
What's wrong with this picture?
Where are the parents?
Why haven't the parents been storming the school board at least since 1999?
Was everyone asleep?
Sitting back and blaming the government when they should be proactively involved is no way to go through life. This is "tornado alley". They have had repeated monster tornados cross deadly paths in Moore. This is their own children for god's sake.
Unbelievable to me that they have no bunkers built.
Agnosticsherbet
(11,619 posts)behind sports.
SharonAnn
(13,772 posts)at Homeland Security because of the sequester. He says it's Obama's fault. I must admit I have a little bit of schadenfreud about his situation.
Cha
(297,137 posts)brainwashing goes.
JaneyVee
(19,877 posts)SHRED
(28,136 posts)They have zero excuses in Moore:
"And then in 2012, the district will get around $2.2 million to build a new press box and improve the bleachers on the home side of the field."
http://www.mooremonthly.com/index.php?news&action=view_news&news_id=164&a=1
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Rosa Luxemburg
(28,627 posts)SHRED
(28,136 posts)Ask them if it's fair that they cling to chairs without a shelter while the high school stadium gets a multi-million dollar makeover.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)SHRED
(28,136 posts)...can turn a school board and also make the news.
Even a vocal minority could raise hell.
Rosa Luxemburg
(28,627 posts)SHRED
(28,136 posts)...and are the ones who vote.
Rosa Luxemburg
(28,627 posts)dlwickham
(3,316 posts)if the parents and taxpayers had demanded that the schools been built with tornado shelters
Dorian Gray
(13,490 posts)the people who lost their loved ones.
Awesome.
Sometimes I read something here that is truly hateful and shocking. It makes me very sad.
dlwickham
(3,316 posts)I feel sorry for you
sorefeet
(1,241 posts)How many lessons do they need before they take action
Rosa Luxemburg
(28,627 posts)truedelphi
(32,324 posts)School for a mere eight months should be blamed? Jeesh!
For their child's death? Can I ask where it is that you live that you have no need to worry about your child's safety?
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)If it ever gets to the point in which I blame all the consequences of an F-5 tornado on nothing other than local politics and local parents, I'll consider myself an under-educated, sub-literate political hack with a vulgar streak.
But I imagine you'd rationalize it...
ananda
(28,858 posts)Every damm school district I've come in contact with puts athletics above everything. that's what brings in the money and elites.
earthside
(6,960 posts)... they expect god to protect them from the ill effects of heathenish weather.
On the other hand, god doesn't play football, although he/she will let your kid's team win if parents pray hard enough. That's why it is more important to build football stadiums.
treestar
(82,383 posts)they could deal with it with no help from the evil feds.
They ought to have state of the art tornado protection in Tornado Alley. All based on their personal will.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)at all. Why did shrub invade Iraq? Where were those protesters? Was everyone asleep? See, it doesn't work that way either.
winter is coming
(11,785 posts)SHRED
(28,136 posts)Local school board elections and meetings are much easier to influence.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)actively at? I am just curious.
ETA, I understand the desire to find blame, to figure out who was at fault, but also do not think you are being fair.
SHRED
(28,136 posts)Volunteered and elected Chief Steward with the Teamsters Union at work. I have and do make a difference in people's lives.
I should have been clearer in my OP. It's not just placing responsibility on the parents although as a parent myself I cannot imagine living there and not raising hell about shelters. I question the entire community there in Moore and their priorities.
Lady Freedom Returns
(14,120 posts)SHRED
(28,136 posts)I live in California which has strict building construction codes for earthquakes.
Lady Freedom Returns
(14,120 posts)So you are willing to roll the dice?
http://www.accuweather.com/en/weather-news/rare-october-tornadoes-touch-d/571920
Several tornadoes touched down in northern California on Monday, some causing damage to towns around the state's capital, Sacramento.
According to the Associated Press, any damage was minor and no injuries were reported.
The first tornado was reported near Yuba City shortly after 3:00 p.m. local time. Sutter County Sheriff and the fire department reported downed power lines and damage to structures.
A witness even described the tornado lifting up her barn and boat, according to KXTV-TV.
SHRED
(28,136 posts)Comparing SoCal with Moore, Oklahoma?
Really?
You're joking.
Lady Freedom Returns
(14,120 posts)It is a dice game.
And the odds for a EF-5 to hit Moore was small. Even smaller since they were hit in 1999.
So don't judge. You are just as likely to get hit as they are. Maybe not a EF-5, but there is not much of a difference to your nerves when you are in one.
SHRED
(28,136 posts)I live in San Diego north coastal region. My grandkids live here also. If their schools were in danger of yearly tornados I would be demanding shelters.
Nice try.
Lady Freedom Returns
(14,120 posts)In the same place. This was a fluke.
Just like a tornado hitting you.
SHRED
(28,136 posts)Lady Freedom Returns
(14,120 posts)SHRED
(28,136 posts)Lady Freedom Returns
(14,120 posts)This was a beyond belief fluke. Just like you say about you getting hit.
Demo_Chris
(6,234 posts)...and other issues that are more likely to impact the children in your area. Good call.
As for Oklahoma, odds are good that they are investing in their children as best they can and in the projects that they think will benefit their communities the most. Like everyone does.
progressoid
(49,978 posts)Its stupid, said John de Beck. Weve got a high-rise building in an earthquake zone thats supposed to handle kids.
http://voiceofsandiego.org/2011/11/14/south-bay-schools-flagged-for-earthquake-risk-getting-inspected/
That means that children go to school in about 200 buildings across the county where earthquake safety is still an unanswered question, the result of a long string of shortcomings in how California and its school districts have handled seismic safety.
brush
(53,764 posts)That should have been the first thing they did after the '99 storms. You don't roll the dice that the storms may not hit the schools. Once it's done, it's done. Then maybe put up the big fancy football stadium. Talk about misguided priorities.
Lady Freedom Returns
(14,120 posts)EF-5 even less.
To be hit twice are odds even the highest high roller would not try for. You have a better chance a the super big lottery AND being hit by lighting than to be hit by a EF-5 again.
brush
(53,764 posts)They're in tornado alley where the storms occur every year. They know that. Public schools should have storm shelters. Rolling the dice that the chances of getting are too high is just irresponsible when school childrens' safety is at issue. That's just a no-brainer. And I've read that a couple of other schools in the area had them and suffered no casualties. Bet they'll put them in the rebuilt schools.
Sissyk
(12,665 posts)If you don't live there, it has to be good enough. Not your call. Where is it you live, btw?
brush
(53,764 posts)You're right, it's not my call but the community sure should have made that call. Especially after getting hit in 1999. Guess it's about priorities. I understand their high school has a state-of-the-art football stadium. Wonder if they could've made the stadium a little less fancy and built a couple of storm shelters for the kids? Just sayin'.
And as I said in my earlier post, bet they put storm shelters in the rebuilt school.
Dorian Gray
(13,490 posts)We got hit by a tornado here in Brooklyn almost three years ago. I certainly never planned nor expected that to happen.
brush
(53,764 posts)Dorian Gray
(13,490 posts)nobody could have foreseen this.
What a hateful OP. Blaming the very people who lost their loved ones and their homes.
Response to uppityperson (Reply #6)
Renew Deal This message was self-deleted by its author.
Lady Freedom Returns
(14,120 posts)This is not an everyday event. To blame them for this is wrong, cruel and over the top.
TalkingDog
(9,001 posts)Climate Change is (duh) changing the climate. I will guarantee that this won't be the last F5 the area sees in the next few years. Adapt or die.
Life Long Dem
(8,582 posts)http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/05/21/18394047-search-and-rescue-winds-down-a-day-after-deadly-oklahoma-tornado?lite
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)And they have a new gymnasium because the F5 tornado tore right though the town the year before.
I went there, great people, great kids, and I was pleased to see the bunkers and even went inside of one.
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)pacalo
(24,721 posts)That corrugated metal worries me.
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)Even F5 200 mph winds won't take out an above ground sturdy steel structure properly anchored to a thick slab.
And they tend to be cheaper than below grade solutions.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)Cars, depends on the girders. Trees and other projectiles? I'd like to see tests that a 2 X 4 flung at 200 mph can't penetrate.
They do need to do something though, I agree.
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)First, my engineering background and instincts are such that I would trust these things and almost feel better than being underground with a house on top of me, but in any event good sturdy corrugated steel, (nearly 1/4 inch thick) would make me feel safe and I think withstand what you're describing.
Check out this video:
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)They threw some lumber end on to get the psi up. Research needs to be done for sure, the whole thing is awful.
After the tornado I was in as a kid, our diningroom was filled with a tree that came through the screen in a one inch tear. They firgured it cAme in butt first really fast then expanded out. Argh for ipad.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)laundry_queen
(8,646 posts)defacto7
(13,485 posts)Entertainment is in and makes for excellent income for business.
And... reasonable forethought and prudence is boring.
The American dream isn't about safety and welfare, it's about havin' a good time and feeling rich!
(sarcasm)
laundry_queen
(8,646 posts)that humans have a tendency to believe it can't happen to them. And I believe that the people in Moore, because they already HAD it happen to them, and were told it probably would NEVER happen again in their lifetimes, became complacent and decided to roll the dice and kick the can down the road. The mindset of "we've already seen the worst of mother nature, how bad could it be next time?" not thinking that it doesn't have to be a tornado with the highest wind speeds ever recorded to cause destruction and death.
Plus, people have a tendency to believe that larger buildings are safer. They are actually more vulnerable, especially in rooms with large roof spans like gymnasiums. Maybe parents figured the buildings were 'sturdy enough' or large enough that interior rooms would be safe. Or maybe they did voice concern, but were placated with platitudes like the '99 tornado was a 'once in a 400 year event' and that it was 'unlikely to ever reoccur in the same area' and that the school itself should withstand most tornadoes.
Oh and also 'big gubmint'. The mayor was on CNN today saying they had 'discussed' making hurricane clips required for new buildings in Moore over the last few years, but decided it was too much 'big brother and all that' but that now they would revisit it. There's your attitude that prevailed in this instance.
SHRED
(28,136 posts)SCVDem
(5,103 posts)for being prepared for seismic events?
Overly regulated my ass! I live 5 miles north of the 5/14 interchange which collapsed.
I am happy for the regs and to hell with the haters!
We will survive!
cynatnite
(31,011 posts)Are you really sorry that you are blaming the parents for the deaths and injuries to their children?
Is it easier to blame people based on where they live and who you think they may have voted for. How do you know they did nothing? Do you have any evidence to support your contention?
It is rather easy to look at something from a distance and make snap judgments.
Lady Freedom Returns
(14,120 posts)SHRED
(28,136 posts)...there were parents who did indeed raise concerns.
I can't find any evidence yet.
Lady Freedom Returns
(14,120 posts)You know, you live in an earthquake zone. In a way your throwing stones while living in a glass house!
cynatnite
(31,011 posts)do you think their children should be taken away from them...those that still have their kids and living in tornado prone Oklahoma?
Lady Freedom Returns
(14,120 posts)Living in a glass house and throwing stones.
#31 "I live in San Diego north coastal region. My grandkids live here also."
cynatnite
(31,011 posts)potential for tsunamis, Mexican border very close by with all kinds of drug violence and all that.
I'm sure there are more dangers that's not coming to mind.
Seems to me that living in tornado alley is far safer than where this person lives.
2naSalit
(86,534 posts)Actually, they WERE trying to do something in Moore and around the state... and I think the hold-up and blame circles back around to the usual suspects, Congress and their hatred of FEMA... the following piece doesn't actually blame Congress but it's all that came to mind as the reason for the delays.
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/26315908/#51959570
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)I imagine some were trying, can not imagine what theybare going through now.
Inkfreak
(1,695 posts)drive me batshit crazy. And you are correct.
Nanjing to Seoul
(2,088 posts)Little Suzie is failing math. . .the parent now cares because people will say they aren't doing a good job. But the parents will deflect the blame and say the teacher isn't good.
Little Johnny is an amazing football player. the parent now cares because they can point to their "star" and say "see, he's my kid. I taught him." And the other parents will admire the parent.
Carlin put it best. When a kid succeeds, a parent is out there doing everything to lap up the credit. When a kid fails, they had nothing to do with that. It was Marilyn Manson, Butter Pecan Ice Cream, the school, violent video games, his friends, Johnny Knoxville or A Catcher in the Rye.
Parents are bullshit and full of shit. I agree with Carlin.
cynatnite
(31,011 posts)And you know this how?
That's a mighty big brush you have there.
Parents have lost their children in this tragedy. Would you say this garbage to their faces?
Lady Freedom Returns
(14,120 posts)They have these "Hind Sight Goggles". Add to that, many can't understand that the math was in favor of this not hitting Moore.
This was a huge super fluke. Tornados do not hit a town every year. The huge area that are prone to tornados is like a roulette wheel. The towns are like the numbers. A tornado in a storm, IF the storm is tornadic , is the ball. Good chance you don't get hit.
Many a time when the Doppler pick one up, it might not make ground.
So since they were hit once, the math was good for them not to ever see it again.
People just can't get that this was a FLUKE!
cynatnite
(31,011 posts)That's how it was most of the time during my growing up in Oklahoma. I don't know if this was a fluke or if it's related to climate change. It'll take some time before we know for sure.
I do know that when I was a kid, we usually only had a few minutes to get to shelter when a tornado was close.
Today, there is more time. It's still not enough. If we can somehow predict direction, scope, and intensity it will save even more lives. An EF-5 is as powerful of a tornado as it gets and not much can withstand it.
I am tired of reading the post-storm judgments that seems to be prevalent among expert Google searchers.
Lady Freedom Returns
(14,120 posts)But the frequency of 5's are, I think (not a scientist), are due to climate change.
And I'm getting sick of the judgments too.
Sissyk
(12,665 posts)It's part of their lives, I guess.
Gives them something to cause a stir over the internet with.
laundry_queen
(8,646 posts)Yes it's like roulette, but it's not a fluke. In areas that are tornado prone, the chances are actually high that a tornado will hit the same spot twice in 50 years. Some Moore official even said during any given spring day, Moore has a 1-2% chance of getting hit by a tornado. That's 1 or 2 tornadoes every hundred days. And - this may come as news - it's not just EF5 tornadoes that kill people. An EF2 will demolish a well built home so you need to be underground or in a reinforced shelter. When you go to EF2-EF5 chances, that's 20% of all tornadoes. So chances are that Moore would get hit with an EF2 or greater every 500- 1000 spring days, or once every 5.5-11 years. That's high risk and not a fluke at all. It's a bit of a fluke that it's an EF5 yet again, but tornadoes in Moore are NOT a fluke, and it doesn't take an EF5 to kill people and destroy buildings. The math actually says there is a significant risk. There are plenty of places in the US that have been hit twice since the 1950's (when they started keeping track of tornado tracks).
Where I live, EF5 tornadoes were supposed to never happen - the chances were statistically zero. Except we had an F4 roll through (would've been an EF5 today if using the enhanced Fujita scale, but Canada still uses the old Fujita scale and this was a long time ago anyway) that was on the ground for over an *hour* and had a 40 km long path of destruction. While we haven't had anything like that happen in the same city, we regularly get small tornadoes and tons of tornado warnings in the summer. Guess what? People PREPARE for tornadoes in the summer! Even though our entire province only gets like 15 a year (1 deadly F3 or greater only happens on average every 10 years). And my child's school has tornado drills.
Here's the page for that tornado. Remember, statistically, the chances of this happening in any given year was a big fat zero (check out how far north that is):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmonton_tornado
Yet it happened.
Where Moore is located, it is really unbelievable to me that there aren't more shelters. We have basements here, so all the deaths with our F4 were people in cars, or in the industrial area or the trailer park (where the tornado had weakened to an F2). In areas where the tornado hit residential areas there were NO deaths, because we have basements. Rebuilding without a shelter after the '99 tornado was simply tempting fate and was extremely foolish, IMO.
Nanjing to Seoul
(2,088 posts)This tornado was a fluke. These same parents, mostly, would blame the school for everything. I'm sure there will be lawsuits against the school for NOT having a safe place for the kids to stay.
At the same time, these people would vote down the allocation to build the safe haven for tornadoes because it would raise their taxes 0.0000003% and "we're poor simple folk. We aren't made of money."
And again, I'm just quoting George Carlin.
cynatnite
(31,011 posts)Nanjing to Seoul
(2,088 posts)I gave my opinion. Whether you like it or not mean little to me. Football fields mean more than keep kids safe or educating them.
cynatnite
(31,011 posts)And your opinion is cold, heartless and idiotic.
Parents are not bullshit. They love their kids.
Where was the outrage when it was being built? It sure as hell wasn't at DU.
It's easy to look back and point to every thing that can fit your narrative. You sit in easy judgment because you have the benefit of hindsight. You aren't the only one either. It's disgusting.
To make it worse, you denigrate parents in the worst possible way.
Response to Nanjing to Seoul (Reply #53)
Inkfreak This message was self-deleted by its author.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)Hit by Camille, they thought they would never again be hit by a hurricane as bad. Then they got hit by Katrina, which was much worse. Its called denial.
There is also a lack of understanding of the laws of probability. Just because a 1 in million chance of an event happened a few years ago, doesn't mean you get 999,999 passes before it happens again. Take a coin flip...each flip, the probability is 50/50. If the coin comes up heads four flips in a row, the probability of the fifth flip is still 50/50.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)is that no one alive could reasonably be expected to anticipate it.
When the tsunami hits the west coast, people will say the same thing. "Houses at 50' above sea level??? What were they thinking!"
dem in texas
(2,674 posts)I live in Texas and see the large football stadiums with press boxes built for high schools, same as Moore, OK. Every time I drive up Hwy 114, I see that big stadium built by Northwest ISD. The towns and schools go without many things so they can have these fancy stadiums. Haven't you heard about Friday Night Lights, it is an illness that affects many towns in this area.
SCVDem
(5,103 posts)you can appreciate that the hhistorical weather patterns are shifting.
The Sahara wasn't always a desert ya know!
Tornado alley may also be shifting.
Why do people believe in invisible sky beings but ignore scientific data. Yeah, then call the scientists crooked.
Let's take a breath. We are all upset at the death and destruction and are showing it.
No Vested Interest
(5,166 posts)in fact, the children drowned in the basement. Supposedly, persons were thought to be safe in a basement, but it didn't work out that way this time.
Oklahoma put money into safe rooms for some of their schools, but the schools in Moore were not included. You have to believe that these red states are low-tax states, and don't wish to increase their municipal or state taxes for this purpose.
When disasters strike, the local district says they can't afford repair, so its pushed to the next level, the state. the state, especially a red low-tax state says they can't afford repair & rebuild, so relief is pushed to the federal level, and that's when many red-state politicians refuse to allocate funding for disaster relief without offsets.
Another problem plaguing local school districts re funding is the graying of America. In many jurisdictions, older adults who have raised their family, or those who never had children refuse to vote for increased school levies. There often are not enough families with school-age children or with an interest in schools to vote for what is best for children.
Niceguy1
(2,467 posts)It doesn't matter right now... nobody has the money for such a massive project.
SCVDem
(5,103 posts)Could you find the attribution for that 'fact' please?
Or we end it here and now.
A Little Weird
(1,754 posts)jeff47
(26,549 posts)A local reporter claimed kids drowned, and presumed they must have been in a basement. Other reports said the kids were buried under a wall.
SCVDem
(5,103 posts)Every report mentions collapsed inner hall walls. No basement, no drowning.
I just want us to be accurate. Thanks.
jtuck004
(15,882 posts)pay, say, the head football coach at OU $6 million a year, ($8 million or so in 2008, btw). And if we didn't do that where would drunken college students shoot the propane-fired shoulder guns fired during the games? In the woods scaring poor birdies? And the damn horses that pull the wagon would probably poop all over the streets.
And, sheesh, there HAD to be better uses for that bit of money and time it cost my dad to build the cellar behind our house, as did our neighbors, and the ones next door to them. I am sure we could have survived all the storms we sat out inside, and I am sure the other neighbors that joined us could have sat in their bathtubs and survived. Most of them anyway.
And I am sure the developers and politicians enjoyed the money and votes they garnered from not insisting that they build community shelters when erecting the hundreds of thousands of homes, and their associated schools and other structures, starting in the 60's, when building a structure on a 4'" slab became cheaper and more popular. Unlike my uncle, of course, when he built the trailer park in Moore, OK, and wasted the money providing a community shelter for the residents. That cost his family a few trips to Disneyland, I am sure. And anyway, those people might have been able to get their cars running and get away in time.
And the simple fact that of the 60 or so F5's that have hit since I was born, or the thousands of f3's, or the tens of thousands of lesser storms that strike there and around North Texas more frequently than any other place in the country I am sure has nothing to do with how important it might be for people to re-order their priorities, such as building a string of ponds near downtown so developers can make more money, or attract a pro basketball franchise.
I only spent 50+ years living with those storms in Oklahoma City, having moved away 8 years ago, but I am quite sure there were better things to spend money on than, say, safety.
SoCalDem
(103,856 posts)The parents have probably been voting NO on school bond issues, and they have been electing "fiscal conservatives".
B Calm
(28,762 posts)storm shelter bunkers too? Why do some always have to blame football?
SCVDem
(5,103 posts)A Little Weird
(1,754 posts)There are a lot of factors that go into what gets done at different schools.
pipi_k
(21,020 posts)as one woman said yesterday on the news, she's lived there in Moore for 40 years and nothing like this has ever happened.
I would imagine that the longer that sort of thing goes on, the less urgency people have, as opposed to somewhere along the Eastern Seaboard where hurricane season always brings the risk of a hit based on past history.
I personally would not live in Tornado Alley. I was living in TN back during that big tornado outbreak in April of 1974 and would never again want to live in an area so prone to tornadoes.
Nay
(12,051 posts)about?
pipi_k
(21,020 posts)I wasn't paying full attention and only heard her say that while she was standing there surrounded by tornado wreckage...
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)I hope you are enjoying your feeling of effortless superiority.
Logical
(22,457 posts)Junkpet
(40 posts)...or we'd have taken action on climate change. We wait until things become a problem and then through our "ingenuity" <sarcasm> come to action. Unless you're Al Gore or Bill McKibben, you're as much at fault for the death of the children in OK as their parents are.
gopiscrap
(23,756 posts)it's always about fucking money!
applegrove
(118,614 posts)Now they know it is wrong. A tiny underground bunker costs $3000. A big, 'one pour seamless' concrete above ground tornado shelter costs $8000.