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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsIs it okay for a 18 year old to have sex with a 14 year old
we'll keep it simple-
| 50 votes, 3 passes | Time left: Unlimited | |
| Yes, it's okay | |
12 (24%) |
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| No, it's not okay | |
38 (76%) |
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| 3 DU members did not wish to select any of the options provided. | |
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HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)However, I think that in the case of consensual sex, a great deal of restraint should be had before involving police and criminal court. Its possible that involving a 14 yo in a criminal case would do far more psychological damage to them, and damage to the family relationship, than the consensual sex would.
Revanchist
(1,375 posts)On one hand, today's society looks down on an adult (18 and older) dating someone that young. On the other hand, my Great-Grandmother (Italian immigrant) was married at the age of 13 so I wouldn't be here if they had the same views back then so this type of question is difficult for me. I feel that I would be a hypocrite if I choose no and slightly slimy if I pick yes.
sammytko
(2,480 posts)My ex mother in law was 13 when she married her 22 year old husband.
I guess its okay if marriage is involved? I don't know.
yurbud
(39,405 posts)sammytko
(2,480 posts)yurbud
(39,405 posts)
DrDan
(20,411 posts)
Ed Suspicious
(8,879 posts)achieve some rudimentary state of maturity before they're to be paired off in a wildly unequal partnership where 13 year old girls are to bend to the whims of 30 year old men is a real step forward toward equal rights. We live in slightly more enlightened times. You can feel good voting for progress while still understanding and accepting your history for whatever it might be or not be.
DrDan
(20,411 posts)Revanchist
(1,375 posts)Like I said, really don't think that it's appropriate in today's age, but on the other hand, if they held those beliefs 100 years ago, I know of about 75 people that wouldn't exist, including myself.
If I'm not mistaken it was also an arranged marriage, possibly for passage to America, and I don't believe in those also.
Edit:
In case anyone is wondering, this was in Rhode Island sometime in the 1920s.
Boomerproud
(7,943 posts)So no, it's not okay.
DrDan
(20,411 posts)
MADem
(135,425 posts)Even today's 24 and 25 year olds are like 18 year olds were fifty or so years ago.
People are maturing (mentally, not physically) slower, even though they have the outward appearance of being more sophisticated on the surface. Children are dependent upon their parents longer these days, and they often don't leave the nest as quickly.
When your 13 year old grandmother got married, there was no such thing as a "teen ager." Children went to work as soon as they were old enough to sit up at the loom, the sewing machine, the factory press, what-have-you. There was no childhood, no "teen years," no coddling along by indulgent parents, except for the very, very rich.
merrily
(45,251 posts)100 years ago, a 17 year old who had sex outside of marriage with a 13 year old ran the risk of being killed, never mind charged with statutory rape.
Hekate
(90,564 posts)The world has changed hugely since your great-grandma's day. I don't know when she was born, but in most of the US it was considered progress that girls had more options and could stay in school awhile longer, or possibly work awhile to save some money.
My grandma was born in the 1880s in Nebraska and grew up to be a schoolteacher like her mother before her. It's interesting that both my grandfathers had an 8th grade education, but they were not married at that age and saddled with children, instead having years in which to learn a trade and become successful before marriage. In other words, a male option.
Anyway, I've come to think of marrying off girls at 12 to 14 years of age as being rather tribal-- it used to be a workable strategy at one time in our development. We're not there any more.
tblue
(16,350 posts)Not if it was consensual.
sibelian
(7,804 posts)
merrily
(45,251 posts)There is not the maturity to make important decisions.
If 14 is not the right cut off age, what is? 10? 8? At what age should children be protected, even if they agree?
Kids are not considered able to contract for similar reasons.
cali
(114,904 posts)you realize that it's perfectly legal for kids that age to get both in many jurisdictions, right?
Kids are often tried as adults in criminal court.
merrily
(45,251 posts)At what age would you draw the line for a minor to have sex with an adult?
Sex between a minor and an adult does happen to be the topic of the thread, not minors tried as adults or joining the military or signing leases or thousands of other things minors are or are not considered able to do in this country.
cali
(114,904 posts)be a criminal matter- in most situations.
merrily
(45,251 posts)We'll have to agree to disagree.
ETA: In which post had you already answered me?
merrily
(45,251 posts)I saw Ms. Toad's answer, but not yours.
Hekate
(90,564 posts)A person does not transform to adulthood overnight when they turn 18, either physically, psychologically, or emotionally. Nor should they in legal terms. Our society has gotten so punitive that sentencing is out of control.
If we can recognize that an 18 y.o. shouldn't be legally drinking alcohol, yet can vote and enter military service, why can't we recognize that both boys and girls MAY become sexually active earlier than their parents would like, and yet try to prevent the underaged from exploitation by older people?
Acknowledging sexual activity and allowing girls to obtain reproductive services is not the same thing as saying a girl (and a 14 y.o. is still a girl) is fair game for older men. We can haggle over the age of consent and the age of culpability, and indeed the courts should not use that damned one-size-fits-all mandate, but it is still a fact that the human brain is not finished developing until about the age of 21. In other words, it really is true that teenagers do not think like adults, and for physiological reasons.
So I do not accept the fact that kids are often tried as adults as any good reason for the rest of the legal system to lay every fact of life on that Procrustean bed.
well-reasoned response.
Ms. Toad
(33,999 posts)the presumption should be that it was consensual (rather than an irrebuttable statutory presumption that it was forced. A 10 year old is unlikely to be in classes, on varsity sports teams, or cheerleading squads with an 18 year old - so that would still be some flavor of statutory rape.)
merrily
(45,251 posts)You'd really have to come up with a great definition of the "same peer group."
Ms. Toad
(33,999 posts)Middle school would be a peer group. High school would be a second one. College would be a third (for those 17 year old minor college students in states where the age of consent is 18, who end up dating 18-22 year old peers).
The only real question in my mind would be fraternization with students in other schools which draw the line differently. For example, an 18 year old senior in one high school dating a 9th grader in a middle school. There really is a change in maturity that is derived from who you associate with. A 9th grader in middle school is generally much less mature than one in high school, just because you tend toward the middle maturity level of your peer group.
merrily
(45,251 posts)Some grade school, middle school girls and high school girls seek to hang out with and to date older guys. It would be odd to say that someone with whom you socialize regularly is not in your peer group.
When you break it down into grade school, middle school and high school, that is a lot closer to an age group than a peer group. Then, you are back to drawing lines based on age.
Ms. Toad
(33,999 posts)which is moderately elastic to acknowledge the socialization which arises based on how kids are actually grouped for education in a particular community.
And - yes, I am deliberately putting middle school girls or high school girls who like to hang out with older guys in different peer groups from the older guys. If they are close in age, they are unlikely to trigger statutory rape laws (using the term generically). In other words, an 8th grade middle school student fraternizing with a 10th grade high school student is unlikely to trigger a statutory rape law. If they are far apart in age - e.g. that 8th grader dating an 18 year old high school senior - that is precisely when I believe such laws are useful. High school students are in a whole different world from middle school students (as they are, as well, from college students). If you have an adult, who is also in a different peer group from the minor (as I've defined them), I think statutory rape laws have their place
When I don't believe they should be triggered is when we put them together (e.g. 9th grade through 12th grade) and encourage them to fraternize on mock trial team, sports, band, the cheerleading squad, etc., and sometimes even in classes - and then criminalize the relationships which happen to become romantic - and far too often become sexual - merely because one of them is technically an adult.
I don't have a particular problem with including general cutoffs for adults-child relationships, as long as there is an exception if the legal adult happens to be in the same school cluster as the child (most likely either high school - like this case, or college - with 17 year old freshman and an legally adult classmate who may actually only be a few days or weeks older than the legal minor, since not too many adults attend middle school).
onenote
(42,602 posts)Line drawing will always produce results that, viewed individually, appear arbitrary. The question is whether there is an age at which a person should be considered too young to consent to sexual activity, an age at which someone is considered mature enough to know that if they engage in sexual activity with someone of a certain age or younger, they could be in deep trouble, and what those particular ages should be.
Ms. Toad
(33,999 posts)They are in the same peer group (and there is at least one state law which draws the line that way). That is a far less arbitrary line than an age.
I taught high school for 11 years, so I have spent a lot of time hanging out with kids in this age range in order to be able to judge their relative maturities. And my first year teaching I had at least one high school student who was older than I was - and often in the first few years I had legally adult students who were 1-3 years separated from me by age.
I would not criminalize their activity with other high school students (even up through the student who turned 22 before I did that first year).
I would criminalize a sexual relationship between me and my students who were 18-22, regardless of the small age difference (and even if they were older than I was), because I was in a position of authority over them - not to mention having spent 4 years in college which gives me a very different level of maturity than my age-mate who was still a high school student.
That doesn't mean I think those high school relationships are a good idea - I just don't think they should be criminal.
ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)counts of lascivious acts with a minor 12-16, wherein the accused is a high school senior at the same school.
Ms. Toad
(33,999 posts)including activities which involve sexual intercourse. That is a remnant of when most such statutes used that label (and a formal name for a few states which still actually use that label).
It is a law based on the principle of statutory rape laws. Sexual activity which may have been freely engaged in and welcomed by both parties is made into a criminal assault based solely on the ages of the participants.
(In some cases that is appropriate, and a useful way to permit the prosecution of people who abused their position of power (age, position, family relationship, etc.) because the survivor could not realistically say "no" - I do not believe that is universally the case within a peer group, merely based on the ages of the people involved.)
Ilsa
(61,690 posts)shouldn't ruin the rest of their lives when both of the teens wanted this, and both are more traumatized by the police and media than by the sex.
ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)
Spike89
(1,569 posts)Although no child can truly "consent" there is still a huge, huge difference between an encounter between two inappropriate, but mutually willing people and an encounter that is not consensual. There is also a huge, and sliding scale for "inappropriate" - a 19 year old and a 15 year old is wrong, but not as serious as a 20-14 difference.
18-14 is too much of an age difference to be legally acceptable, but it isn't enough to make it clear that the 18 year old is a predator and should be labeled a sex offender and felon for life. If there is clear evidence that an 18 year old is a predator, then they could (and should) be prosecuted even if the age difference is less.
It is as much about context as anything. When you make mandatory punishments based on worse-case scenarios, you pretty much force the system to either ignore borderline cases (happens all the time) or pursue the law at the expense of justice (what is happening in this case).
A 14 year old can be just as smart and capable of making decisions as an 18 year old. Sometimes they can't. Sometimes a 14 year old can be more mature than an 18 year old. It's hard to draw a fine line. But a line has to be drawn somewhere. I can't disagree with a felony charge for an 18 year old sleeping with a 10 year old, even if it is consensual. Should 14 be the limit, what about 13, 12? What if the 13 year old turns 14 the next day? I hate to see kids lives ruined over rape charges for consensual sex and the current laws need tweaking. But there has to be some limit.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)
FreeState
(10,570 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)In any case, I don't think an 18 year old who has consensual sex with a 14 year old should be dragged through the criminal court system, let alone be labeled a pedophile.
At 14, I was more mature than most 20 year olds - I had 2 jobs, played several sports, was an honors student, was very well informed on many subjects (during spares in high school I'd go to the library and read encyclopedias) and heck, I looked 20 and had no issues getting into bars (drinking age is 18 here). I dated guys that were 18, 19 and 20. It was the crowd I hung around with. My best friend was 16, and the other girls I hung out with were all 18+. I was just one of those kids - 14 going on 40.
I'll say one thing - those guys didn't take advantage of me like my 14 and 15 year old male classmates did or tried to. I didn't have sex with any of the 'older' guys but I might as well have, we had many fun nights. And it was all consensual. And let me tell you, if my parents would've decided to arrest my boyfriends and dragged us through a trial, it would've completely ruined my life and caused much more damage than dating older guys could have EVER done. My parents did know about the relationships and didn't like it (if only because they didn't like 'how it looked', because they didn't really care about ME) but at the time the age of consent here was 14, so they were out of luck. Those 18-20 year olds treated me better than my parents ever did anyhow. The age of consent here is now 16. I think an age of consent of 18 is too high. To me, 14-16 is about right.
I have a 15 year old bi daughter that hangs out with a lot of 18 year old girls (women, really, they are adults here), because they are all in the same afterschool drama club. If one of those 18 year olds dated my daughter, it wouldn't bother me one bit - they are in the same peer group. Those consent laws should be enforced only to keep 40 year olds away from 12 year olds, not to persecute older boyfriends and girlfriends from the same peer group because the parents "don't like" the relationship.
closeupready
(29,503 posts)I'm pretty sure in the vast majority of cases where this occurs, it's not like two people who've known each other for a long time. Really can't approve of that - 14 is just too young to be sleeping with someone who is 18.
treestar
(82,383 posts)It should not be that simple. Kids still in HS turn 18. There's nothing magic about that, so when is it OK, 15/29, 16/20, 17/21 - the rule should be consistent or there should be an allowed gap that trumps the over/under 18 distinction.
Should two 14 year olds even be OK, age difference or not? There should be a bottom line age, and maybe it should be older than 14.
LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)I'm not bothered by consensual, non-violent sex.
Prosecuting that girl is a travesty, and yes I'd say the same whether it's a straight or gay relationship.
deaniac21
(6,747 posts)I don't see a problem.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Last edited Sat May 25, 2013, 10:40 AM - Edit history (3)
to sex with an adult.
I disagreed with this position at the time of the Roman Polanski debate and I disagree with it today.
It is some consolation, however, that 80% of DUers concur with me on this.
cynatnite
(31,011 posts)Just because a child can say yes doesn't mean they understand what they're saying yes to or are able to cope with the repercussions.
Drale
(7,932 posts)14 is the teenage years, your body is changed, your having urges. Whats the difference between an 18 year old and a 14 year old and two 14 year old's physically? There's a difference mentally but at 18 your still not thinking like an adult and to charge them with being a sex criminal when they didn't do anything to hard to other person is completely out of line and against the spirit of the law especially when the 18 year old is still in high schools
Response to Drale (Reply #12)
Post removed
HockeyMom
(14,337 posts)than 18 and 14. 18 and 25 are both adults. No, not at all. I say that from my own exprience, and even my now adult daughters (29 and 34) say the same thing.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)HockeyMom
(14,337 posts)Your average 18 year old is far less mature than a 25 year old.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)HockeyMom
(14,337 posts)I raised two daughters who were 5 years apart. My younger daughter at 14 was far more mature than her sister at 19. It took my older daughter longer to mature than her sister.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)Ms. Toad
(33,999 posts)and all similar laws - don't account for those atypical cases. They don't permit any exceptions for the mature 14 year old and the immature 18 year old - their sexual activity is criminal. Period.
I don't think it is a particularly good thing - but I don't think it should be criminal.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)Ms. Toad
(33,999 posts)Maturity at age 18 is more closely related to whether the 18 year old is still in high school - or has graduated. The maturity of 18 year olds in high school much closer to the maturity of their peers than it is to students the same age who are in college.
There is often a dramatic change in maturity associated with leaving high school (especially with beginning college). But even more there studies which demonstrate that it is mid 20s before thinking really becomes mature.
markpkessinger
(8,392 posts)There is a point in development at which we recognize a person as being fully adult, having the ability both to think through and understand the consequences of his or her decisions, as well as to take responsibility for those decisions. Mammals protect their young, but at a certain point those young are expected to fend for themselves against predators (be they predators looking for lunch or predators looking to take sexual advantage). That's why we don't let people under 18 contract in their own name. Emotional/psychological maturity does not rise at a constant rate over our lifetimes. The rate of maturation in childhood, adolescence and early adulthood rises on a very steep curve, and then tends to level off as one becomes an adult. A 39-year-old, other than having a few more years of experience, isn't necessarily significantly more mature emotionally than a 30-year-old. There is no serious power differential between a 39-year-old and a 30-year old. such that will place the 30-year-old at any kind of unfair disadvantage relative to the 39-year-old. But with a 20-year-old and an 11-year-old, there clearly IS a major power differential, and the younger party clearly IS at a disadvantage.
ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)A college graduate and high-schooler? No way. I would agree with 16-19, 16-20 is pushing it.
pnwmom
(108,959 posts)Ter
(4,281 posts)Some would hate me for that, but I am not some kind of sex starved pervert. I get along great with her.
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)There isn't as much a brain difference between 21 and 39 as there is between 14 and 21, I should think.
21 is a legal age. A person can get a loan, buy a house, die for his country, leave home & not tell anyone, etc.
Still....18 years' difference is quite a difference. She might think you're hot stuff now, but she likely wouldn't in 20 yrs, when you're 59 and she's a sprightly & still hot 41 yr old. Unless you're rich so that you'll die while she still has the youth and years to enjoy your estate. Still...that's a fair bargain. You get the young bod & face...she gets money and not having to work, etc. A good trade.
merrily
(45,251 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)merrily
(45,251 posts)
MattBaggins
(7,897 posts)Adolescence is a 20 century invention.
cali
(114,904 posts)teenagers have sex. I'm shocked by the people that think that should be criminalized.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Last edited Fri May 24, 2013, 08:37 PM - Edit history (1)
to sex with adults.
If Roman Polanski is reading this thread today he is nodding with approval.
cali
(114,904 posts)first of all, you're stretching things as far as you can by designating the 18 year old an adult and the 14 year old a "middle schooler".
and you didn't answer my question.
teenagers are sexual beings by definition. they are going to have sex. they always have and they always will. An 18 year old and a 14 year old having sex may not be optimal (or it may be) but it is not pedophelia- if, of course, it's consensual.
And yes, a 14 or 15 year old may well be able to consent.
merrily
(45,251 posts)Ms. Toad
(33,999 posts)Age of consent laws criminalize all sexual activity by kids under an arbitrary age - even between peers of the same age. Kids who have sex before that age can typically be adjudicated delinquent by reason of engaging in sexual activity.
I would also not criminalize voluntary sexual activity among kids in the same peer group (high school, for example).
That is not the same thing as believing it is appropriate - I think there is far too much sexual activity among minors who are not ready for all of the consequences of it, and that parents and schools need to spend far more time in sex positive conversations with kids as they grow up so that they both embrace the good that sex adds to life - but also understand the consequences and have the skills to make good choices about when and with whom to engage in sexual activity.
merrily
(45,251 posts)the situation of this thread.
So, you would not criminalize sex between a 50 year old and a 4 year old, as long as the four year old agreed?
ETA. Yes, the age, which also can differ from state to state, is relatively arbitrary. Legislators draw arbitrary lines every day. That is the nature of legislation.
Ms. Toad
(33,999 posts)1. criminalization of sexual activity by minors (generally - i.e. I don't believe a minor should be able to be adjudicated delinquent merely because s/he engages in voluntary sexual activity)
and (as relevant to your 50 year old/4 year old question)
2. criminalization of sexual activity based on presumed power relationships: Here's what I wrote: "I would also not criminalize voluntary sexual activity among kids in the same peer group.(high school, for example)"
A 50 year old and a 4 year old are not kids in the same peer group.
markpkessinger
(8,392 posts). . . is that kids mature == sexually, socially, psychologically and emotionally -- at very different rates. Ideally, the age of legal consent for any individual person would be exactly at the age when that person is psychologically and emotionally mature enough to be able to fully think through, and prepare himself/herself, for all the potential ramifications of a sexual encounter. The trouble is, that age can be very different from person to person. So, in the interest of protecting vulnerable kids from the wiles of predatory adults, we are left with having to draw a rather bright line at a particular age, and apply it to everyone. It's not a perfect solution -- but then, I'm not sure a perfect solution exists.
Ms. Toad
(33,999 posts)not middle school - and is in classes with upper classmen because she is in an accelerated program.
And the 18 year old is in the same high school.
They are peers who developed a relationship with each other in the context of being part of the same peer group - a relationship which ultimately became sexual.
ecstatic
(32,653 posts)Not quite middle school... I made a lot of bad decisions, but I wasn't a helpless child who didn't realize what the consequences of my actions would be.
There are some cases where a 14 year old can consent: When it comes to dating another student in high school, I think a 14 year old is capable of giving consent (assuming a comparable level of maturity and cognitive functioning in both participants). While it's a terrible decision, I don't consider two teens having 100% consensual sex rape (unless one party is disabled or impaired in some way that prevents him/her from understanding what's going on).
That being said, I think 14 is too young to consent to sex with an 18 year old who already graduated high school prior to the start of the relationship. If the "18 year old" is not a student when a consensual sexual relationship begins, then s/he should probably spend a couple nights in jail. Don't have sex with anyone without checking ID first.
KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)of answering a question with a question.
cali
(114,904 posts)and sorry, I fail to see how that is relevant.
HappyMe
(20,277 posts)think someone can make up their mind and give consent to have sex?
But what if it is a couple of 14 year olds? Or a 14 yr old and a 16 yr old? I'm not sure where the line should be drawn.
The fact of the matter is, is kids in high school have sex.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)Can't consent to sex, but can be responsible enought to be tried as an adult. Hmmm...
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)a fact my parents were fully aware of. My mother took her to get bc pills.
RKP5637
(67,088 posts)at 17 it did, and it was hot!
HappyMe
(20,277 posts)and abortions be okay?
LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)It's probably why we're #1 and #2 in teen pregnancy among developed countries. That good old sexual shame never seems to die in our countries.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)Of a 14 and 18 yr old. It is far easier, in general, for a 14 yr old to be coerced, controlled, misled, by someone 4 yrs older. That is the reason for stat rape laws between ages like this. Not if they should be sexually active. Not of they are mature. But the potential for abuse, etc.
Schema Thing
(10,283 posts)would most definitely have been giving her "consent".
She thankfully waited till she was 16 before having consensual sex with her boyfriend. Who, btw was 19 at the time and, at least it seemed to me, no where near as mature as my daughter at their respective stages in life.
We use the word "consent" as a legal definition very differently than the actual meaning of the word, and we do that not because we are defining right and wrong morally, but because lines have to be drawn somewhere.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)Do you know how many have gone through puberty?
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)OldEurope
(1,273 posts)I voted no.
I was 13 and he was 15. It was no good experience although it was consensual. You may argue that he was to young, too. I don't think so.
But then my daughter was 15 and her boyfriend was 18, and they are beeing together now for 5 years.
So I think it depends.
LadyHawkAZ
(6,199 posts)and abortion. Apparently there's still a few folks out there that don't get the connection between the two.
18 and 14 is within the high school peer group. This isn't rocket science.
cbdo2007
(9,213 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)with your belief that they shouldn't be having sex? Or do you draw some arbitrary line, like it's OK for a 14 year old to have sex with a 17 year old but not an 18 year old.
It may not be optimal, but I sure as shit don't think that teenagers having consensual sex should be criminalized.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)Is it ok for a teacher to have consensual sex with a student? Most places and laws say no because of the power differential and potential for abuse. Same as between a 14 and 18 yr old.
cali
(114,904 posts)4 years apart in age.
So is 14 and 17 equally onerous to you?
Ed Suspicious
(8,879 posts)uppityperson
(115,677 posts)Power differential and abuse is there, whether you want to face it or not. If see a 14 and 18 yr old as being comparable, why the problem with a teacher nd student?
merrily
(45,251 posts)If they have sex anyway, they should not get pregnant. There is no inconsistency at all.
But statutory rape laws are not only about having sex. They are about an adult having sex with a minor. Again, at what age would draw line? How young is too young to give informed consent to both sex with an adult and any pregnancy that may result?
cali
(114,904 posts)if it's consensual- in most circumstances.
And I disagree about teenagers having sex. they have always had sex and they always will. the important thing to me is that they practice safe sex.
onpatrol98
(1,989 posts)You do have some really mature 14 year olds and some really immature 18 year olds.
But, if consent simply means a kid said, yes...that seems a bit empty if the 14 year old said yes because they were clueless and somehow manipulated by the 18 year old.
There's a lot of growing up that can happen in 4 years. Kids mentally mature at different ages.
True consent implies an understanding of consequences. I think many parents who have had a 14 year old would readily admit their child was fairly clueless about consequences. Now, maybe you're still clueless at 18, but at least you've had the benefit of 4 more years to get it together.
So, I say, yes. Keep it criminal and alert all kids. If you're 18 years old, go find someone else closer to your own age and understanding. And, if I'm a parent of an 18 year old interested in hooking up with a 14 year old, I want to understand the attraction. Because, to my mind, a 14 year old is a child. I want to make sure you're developmentally where you need to be. Maybe it's a normal attraction. But, maybe it's not. Even if it wasn't criminal, I would discourage it all cost. If the fascination is that strong, it'll still be there in 2 years. But, often it's not, and they'll be attracted to someone else in a month.
Ed Suspicious
(8,879 posts)My daughters are 12/14 are both about to start on the pill with the help of our family doctor who believes that in addition to the impact of the reduced likelihood of unwanted pregnancy, they will be served by ancillary effects the pill offers such as that of reducing acne, regulating menstrual cycle, and even stabilizing mood and helping to guard against some types of cancer.
cali
(114,904 posts)they have always had sex and they always will, so it may not be about approval, but it is often about recognizing the reality that teens have sex.
Approval has nothing to do with it.
Teens have sex, whether people like it or not.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)That question would have been, 'Are 14-year-olds having sex?'
So yeah, making birth control available IS about acknowledging reality. This OP IS ABOUT APPROVAL.
No fucking clue how the acknowledgment of reality (via bc or abortion) is conflated in some peoples' minds with approval, but then I'm not the one making that argument.
cbdo2007
(9,213 posts)Just because I don't think it's ok doesn't think I don't think people will do it. I don't think murder is ok but people still do it irregardless of what I think.
quinnox
(20,600 posts)It depends on the people involved of course. But people forget that girls used to routinely get married beginning at age 12 in times past, it was common at one time.
Also, this still happens in parts of Africa and other cultures in Asia, girls are very young and get married, even today in some traditional cultures.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Just because something is common, or used to be common, doesn't mean it's harmless or should automatically be considered acceptable.
Read up on the global push to end the practice of child marriage, and why people are working to stop it.
merrily
(45,251 posts)onenote
(42,602 posts)I am sympathetic to the point of view of those that don't like the idea of criminalizing "consensual" sex between a 14 year old and an 18 year old. But line drawing is hard. What if its a 14 year old and a 19 year old? 21 year old? 25 year old? At what point should it be a criminal issue and why? If its consensual on the part of a 14 year old with an 18 year old, at what point does it become not consensual? Is it the difference in ages? But isn't that simply another way of saying that a 14 year old's "consent" is less than that of a fully developed adult? We certainly don't think that 35 year old and a 25 year old can't enter into a fully consensual relationship. So if we don't think a 25 year old and 14 year old can do so, doesn't that suggest that a 14 year old's consent is tenuous?
loyalsister
(13,390 posts)Yes. It's about the power differential. There is a great deal of variation in maturity among adolescents. Suppose the mother has an 18 yr. old boyfriend? Suppose it was only identified as "consensual" under threat?
The situations vary and in order to protect the common vulnerability of young adolescents, there should be a well defined line. If there is obvious consent in any given situation, parents can work that out with the justice system.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)Problem is not sex or just an age difference but the power differential between a 14 and 18 yr old. Same power differential exists between a teacher and a 18 yr old highschool student. Or between a doctor and a patient.
THAT is the reason for age differential laws for teens. 4 yrs can give the older much more power over the younger, the younger can easily be taken advantage of.
NewJeffCT
(56,828 posts)18 is an adult when it comes to most things. A 14 year old could still be in middle school. Big difference.
Two 14 year olds experimenting together, I can understand, or even a 14 and a 15 year old. But 18 vs 14 is too big a difference in maturity levels.
HockeyMom
(14,337 posts)when the relationship started, not in MIDDLE SCHOOL. Your average Middle Schooler is not 14 years old. In fact, my husband started HS at 12, and both myself and my older daughter were 13 starting HS. You can have a very WIDE range of ages, for differerent ages (skipping/left back/birth month) in HS.
LuvNewcastle
(16,835 posts)If I had a child, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be comfortable with it, but I'm not going to go so far as condemn it, either. Even though 18 is legally adulthood, most 18 year-olds (especially guys) aren't very mature. I would be a lot less comfortable with a 14 year-old and 20 year-old. I also don't think I could tolerate a sexual relationship where one is less than 14. There's something that makes my skin crawl about 13 year-olds having sex.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)I think adults in this country are completely lost on this issue. Most 14 year olds THEMSELVES will admit that they're not ready, and though they're curious, they're not seriously interested. But the pressure to be 'grown up' makes many put on an act. I'm astounded more adults don't see through this. Sure, some are ready, and some are gonna do it anyway even if they're not.
Yes, they're peers. Yes, they're in high school. But there is a whole lot of growing up kids do in those four years. And peer pressure is, you know, actually a thing.
Then there's also the 'but you're giving them birth control!' And 'but you want them to be able to have abortions!' framing, which is ludicrous and suitable only for use by logic-challenged republicans.
And no, before I get any any ridiculous replies, it shouldn't be a crime 
but that doesn't automatically make it ok.
olddots
(10,237 posts)even though the OP doesn't mention it our minds go to this recent case .
FreeState
(10,570 posts)the girl is 15, 14 when they met. She is in High School not middle school. They are 3 years and some months apart - not 4 years. The OP is stretching the facts if indeed the OP is referring to the two teenagers in FL.
War Horse
(931 posts)I don't get it. 18 year old me wouldn't even have entertained the thought. A 14 yr old was a kid to me, even back then.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)This is a glaring issue.
I know that when I was 18, I didn't see 14 year olds as even makeout material, let alone potential sex partners.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)Not in all cases, but there are enough older kids who pick a younger one because they are new, fresh, not their claasmate who knows all about them but is impressed that ( omg a senior!) picked them.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)That coupling is very common. And it's frequently an 18-year-old and a 14-year-old.
HockeyMom
(14,337 posts)They were were 17 and 14. How did it suddenly get to be 18 and 14? The other girl is now 15. So it sounds like a 3 year age difference, not 4 years. Freshman/Junior and now Sophomore/Senior. That is NOT an unusual age difference in HS. The younger girls parents ONLY brought charges AFTER she turned 18, not while she was still 17.
So the relationship at 17 and 14 was fine with them, but 18 and 15 isn't? AGENDA. That is the bottom line with this. Do not FORGET this fact. One day the relationship was perfect legal, but the day after NO?
FreeState
(10,570 posts)HappyMe
(20,277 posts)They do seem to have a big, glaring agenda here. What it is, I don't know.
HockeyMom
(14,337 posts)I suppose I have some insight into this both in having a lesbian daughter, and another daughter who turned 18 as Senior who dated a 15 Sophomore boy. They started seeing each other as 17 year old Junior and 14 year old Freshman. Would that boy's parents be HORRIFIED at their son dating an "adult"? Hardly, his Dad used to BRAG about his son seeing an older woman (sic).
There was nothing sexual going on, but it sounded like his Dad WISHED there were. My daughter said they were just friends and enjoyed each other's company. I believed her, and it proved true. He came out in college and is now engaged to be married, to a man. Double standards I suppose when the male is younger, at least in a straight relationship.
FreeState
(10,570 posts)This is from yesterday. Watch the mothers emotion and where she places emphasis - she is not normal.
Edit, better link:
http://www.cbs12.com/news/top-stories/stories/vid_7597.shtml
RockaFowler
(7,429 posts)I really despise that station. This proves it even more to me. Again more lies from this family and the reporter is pushing an agenda (this is a Sinclair station after all).
Why is the mother calling the reporter by name?? Do they know each other personally?? Yeah Jana you are a real great reporter there. The most one-sided story I have ever seen in my life.
HappyMe
(20,277 posts)
Ms. Toad
(33,999 posts)That would have been over the summer when the two may have been involved in the summer school related activities together (cheerleading, varsity sports, band are three things which come to mind which typically start before school does). Her father said their relationship started with 17, and I have not seen anything to contradict statement.
But she was 18 when sexual activity became part of the relationship.
FreeState
(10,570 posts)Im part of the families facebook group - she was 17.
This is from her mother:
"Kelley Hunt Smith
It's been a crazy morning already. Its EXTREMELY important to me that everything is above board and truthful. I know with anything that goes viral, the facts will be twisted or confused. Clarity is important. Kate and her gf met, were friends, acquaintances, whatever you want to call it when they were 14 and 17. Kate turned 18 once her senior year began, and her gf was 2 months shy of 15. Those ages and time frames are really petty to me personally because bottom line there is a 3 year 7 month age difference period, the girls were both in high school period, the relationship was consensual and mutual period. To charge fellow classmates that are dating or sexually active is wrong GAY OR STRAIGHT. I want to go on record saying if Kate was a MALE i would feel the EXACT same way i do now. THIS IS NOT RIGHT! Its not about sexual preference, although that's is what has fueled the opposing side, its about what is right. The laws need to change! These laws are to protect children from adults predators, not their same age classmates!"
Ms. Toad
(33,999 posts)The father's statement says their relationship began when she was 17. The affidavit identifies the sexual activity as beginning in November or December.
So I still don't see any clarity as to whether a romantic relationship began when they were 17 or after Kaitlyn turned 18.
FreeState
(10,570 posts)when Kate turned 18. Not her friend, her girlfriend. They were already dating when she turned 18.
"Kate turned 18 once her senior year began, and her gf was 2 months shy of 15."
Ms. Toad
(33,999 posts)It says Kate was 18 when school started and her girlfriend was 2 months shy of 15. It wasn't establishing when the relationship changed from being non-romantic to romantic.
My sister (who is about as straight as they come) refers to her female friends as "girlfriend" all the time. Girlfriend doesn't necessarily mean a romantic relationship (and in every LGBT community I've been part of, lover or partner are more commonly used terms).
They may have been romantic partners before school started or not - I still haven't seen a clear statement. The affidavit, based on the recorded phone call, identifies the start of the sexual aspects of the relationship as November or December, when Kaitlyn was 18 (I don't remember which, without going to hunt for it).
ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)case), the mom seems to have the daughter living with her for the most part.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)RockaFowler
(7,429 posts)The girls were both in High School.
The older girl was 17 when they started dating and having consensual sex.
The younger girl was 14. She is now 15.
Katlyn is (or was) still in High School at th age of 18.
They are 3 years apart from each other. I dated guys older than that. Heck I'm married to a guy 17 years older than me and we met when I was 20!
This case stinks. And if it were a boy and a girl I would think the same way. They were both in High School. That should end the case right ther!!
randome
(34,845 posts)The line is not there to cover every possible circumstance. It's there to cover the vast majority of cases.
Prosecuting someone after they turn 18 is bullshit, though.
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RockaFowler
(7,429 posts)They were both in High School. Shouldn't that stop the case from proceeding??
randome
(34,845 posts)Not all relationships are alike simply because both are in High School. Bullying and less subtle forms of bullying, coercion and domination, can still occur.
I think the law should be more flexible about such relationships but right now it isn't and I'm not sure how it could be given the hundreds of thousands of teenagers in the country.
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RockaFowler
(7,429 posts)So, I guess that should change everything
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)She turned 18 in August, before school started. Younger girl was a freshman, its unlikely they met before school started.
RockaFowler
(7,429 posts)When Kaitlyn was in the 11th Grade and the younger girl was in 9th Grade
She's a Senior (or was) now and the younger girl is in 10th grade.
They were on the same team together - so yeah they met before her 18th birthday
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)RockaFowler
(7,429 posts)HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)uppityperson
(115,677 posts)Ms. Toad
(33,999 posts)is to require the same kind of proof which is required in every other sexual assault case - an evaluation of what actually occurred to determine whether the sexual activity was unwanted by the "victim."
This case is treated differently from all other sexual assault cases solely because of the age of the two involved. If Kaitlyn had been a young kindergartner, rather than an old one, their actions would not have been criminal. If Kaitlyn's birthday had been in March, rather than August, their actions would not have been criminal.
In some cases, that different treatment is warranted to protect very young victims. I don't believe it is warranted for peers in the same high school. Coercion and bullying within a high school are not based on the age of the participants - there is no reason to believe that the relative age of the participants created a coercive or bullying relationship here. If there was such a relationship, it should really not be that hard to establish in court.
The problem I have with laws of this nature in a high school or college setting (for minors in college) is that it makes absolutely no difference whether these two were just kids who hit it off together in their interactions in the activities they engaged in just as part of being in high school together - or whether the older one took advantage of the younger one.
randome
(34,845 posts)With children, it's probably doubly difficult. And what happens if someone decides the sexual relationship was 'proper'? Let it continue? Do we want high schools to be in the business of making decisions about sex for their pupils?
What if one of the parents does not want her son or daughter in a sexual relationship?
They are still children.
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Ms. Toad
(33,999 posts)about sex for their students?
I am talking about the legal standard. A criminal conviction for rape or sexual assault between high school peers (or college peers) should not be based solely on the mere fact of sexual activity, which - in most instances - was freely chosen by both parties. I think the percentage of high school students engaged in sexual relationships is around 25%. I don't think that is a good thing - but I don't think it should be criminal just because it took place and one of the kids (in the same peer group) had crossed the magic age barrier before s/he graduated from high school.
As for the parents -
There are a lot of things kids do (including dating or having sexual relationships) that parents don't approve of, or that violate family rules. They should be free to use whatever parenting tools they have to enforce the family rules as long as their child is a minor. Ground the child. Require double dates with a trusted adult. Prohibit the child from seeing the partner. Impose curfews. There are all sorts of things a parent can do to address what they believe to be inappropriate behavior. But my bottom line is that if the relationship is consensual between the kids, but the parents do not approve of it, resolving it should be a parenting matter, not a criminal one.
If truly isn't consensual, that can still be proven in court.
LadyHawkAZ
(6,199 posts)and I appreciate the thought you've put into it.
I have among my acquaintances right now a young lady of 17 (daughter of a friend) who is in a relationship with a transgender boy of 19. They've been living together since she was 16 and he 18, and started dating when they were 15 and 17. This case is really breaking my heart- every time I see a news report about Kaitlyn Hunt, what I see in my mind is the faces of those two kids. If my friend were not such an accepting and loving parent, it could so easily be those two in this same situation, with her boyfriend facing felony charges and being bashed as a pedophile or a rapist- and yet those two adore each other, and he's nothing of the kind.
It's sheer cruelty to tell a teenager they need to either abandon someone they love or face prison time because they have just passed an arbitrary marker and their loved one has not.
Ms. Toad
(33,999 posts)I have been astounded at how many people on DU seem to have sprung into adulthood without ever passing through the messy teenage years.
LadyHawkAZ
(6,199 posts)I wish I had had their time machine- I could have happily skipped a couple of my teen years. 
merrily
(45,251 posts)HockeyMom
(14,337 posts)Not that much difference between the differenent grades, but when they graduate and go off to college or the working world, a whole lot changes. I know since I graduated young, worked, and went to college nights. If you told me back then that I could only date HS kids because I was underage, I would have told you you were nuts. I had nothing in commom with them, but I couldn't date someone in college since I was only 17?????
merrily
(45,251 posts)The more experiences people have, the better their judgment gets.
cali
(114,904 posts)merrily
(45,251 posts)Your point about the brain not being fully developed at 20 is more correct for males than females, but, in any event, it argues against your position, not for it.
Pragdem
(233 posts)merrily
(45,251 posts)Ms. Toad
(33,999 posts)is not whether it is OK (I would answer that no - I don't think it is OK for two 14 year olds to have sex either - most teenagers are not ready for everything that sexual activity brings with it)
versus:
should it be a criminal act (particularly when the two are in high school together). And I don't believe it should be criminal.
Thinking something is not ok is not the same thing as being opposed to treating this as a criminal matter.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)1. I think the couple this is about was 17 and 14, and then 18 and 15. So only 3 years apart.
2. There has to be some kind of "romeo and juliet" allowance, or juliet and juliet as the case may be, and maybe it should be a 4-year instead of a 3-year difference? I don't know. I guess I can see an argument for that though.
Ter
(4,281 posts)...And the 18 year old is a virgin Call of Duty super geek? A damn shame that the 18 year old is now a sex offender for life.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)is most likely a rape victim and deserves empathy and not shame.
Ter
(4,281 posts)But when I was a freshman in HS in the late 80's, there was a girl who bragged about having her count up to 40. I know many were my classmates (also 14 year olds). No idea if some were over 18, I'm just saying if one happens to be an 18 year old Call of Duty (or in 1989, a Super Mario Bros virgin lol) virgin, it would be a shame to make him a sex offender for life.
But I understand, there must be a line drawn.
La Lioness Priyanka
(53,866 posts)to drink.
fitman
(482 posts)I graduated HS in 1980.. Many of the senior boys were dating(and having sex) with Freshman and sophmore girls who were 15..When I was a Freshman quite a few of the good looking girls in my class were dating seniors..
When I was a senior I double dated with my best friend and he took a Freshman girl to the prom..her dad was the mayor of our little town and we went to their house and he and the mom took prom pics..
NO ONE THOUGHT THIS WAS IMMORAL OR NOT NORMAL BACK THEN!!!!
I also remember guys who were seniors dating Sop/junior girls and graduating and coming home from college taking their gf's to the prom or homecoming..no one thought this was strange..this is how it was 30 years go.
Prison time/sex offender status for this girl Kaitlyn? No!!!!!!!!!!!.. What should have done was her dad(both set of parents actually) laid down the law, pulled her from school and send her to another or expell her form school.
To compare what happened here to an actual rape or assault is nuts.
Ed Suspicious
(8,879 posts)Ed Suspicious
(8,879 posts)And 11th and 12th are allowed to socialize. Freshmen girls often still hug their childhood stuffed animals at night while being pressured by older boys for blowjobs during the day. This time of transition should be allowed/encouraged to happen less violently than it is today. The peer group should be narrowed.
RKP5637
(67,088 posts)there is more to it IMO than just age. Some are mature at 14 and 18, others are never mature. To me, sex was never a big deal ... unless not consensual, then that is a whole different thing. So, I did a Pass.
Donald Ian Rankin
(13,598 posts)I absolutely don't think it's OK for an 18 year old to have sex with a 14 year old.
I'm not certain that a jail term isn't appropriate, but I'm also far from certain that one is.
And I'm *absolutely* certain that it being a lesbian couple should not be treated as an aggravating factor, which it looks as though it may well have been.
Rex
(65,616 posts)Just a slow day?
Electric Monk
(13,869 posts)wedding anniversary, still happy together.
It worked out better than fine for them, fwiw.
brewens
(13,545 posts)I'd say we shouldn't go after a kid that turns 18 that was already in a relationship like that. Exactly that happened to a kid I know. I think it was 15 and 18. Her parents didn't like him and as soon as he turned 18, he was busted for it.
He's a pretty good guy too. I and another neighbor both wrote letters to the court on his mothers request.
I'd say a high school senior shouldn't be dating a freshman but I went to a 10-12 school. I guess that might be a little different where freshmen are included. I'd be willing to bet senior girls don't date freshman boys very often.
DreamGypsy
(2,252 posts)A child under 16 years of age cannot consent to sexual activity, regardless of the age of the defendant. A child who is at least 16 years of age and less than 18 years of age cannot consent to sexual activity if the defendant is 24 years of age or older.
State laws vary considerably.
tridim
(45,358 posts)18/2+7 = 16.
It works all the way up to death.
Rex
(65,616 posts)nt.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)Its always made sense to me, as a guideline.
Rex
(65,616 posts)this sort of thing.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)And I've found it to be a good guideline since. I think its especially sensible in that if two people fall just outside the guideline, by waiting a few years as friends they then fall within the guideline and can get more serious. Waiting a little never hurts.
Rex
(65,616 posts)Waiting makes the heart grow fonder.
LadyHawkAZ
(6,199 posts)you MIGHT (if your doctor is convinced of your maturity level) qualify for a tubal ligation.
These random equations are bullshit. People are more than numbers.
Warpy
(111,169 posts)Maturity advances at different ages in different people.
If the 14 year old girl has gone out and gotten her own birth control, whether by asking the family doctor for it or just buying a pack of condoms at the drug store, then I'd suggest she has the maturity to consent.
That's where my line is, in other words. I wouldn't have been ready at 14. Some of my friends were.
Tx4obama
(36,974 posts)
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)The younger girl didn't turn 15 until a few months later. The younger girl was a freshman, didn't enter into relationship until schoolyear started, when Kaitlyn was already 18.
HockeyMom
(14,337 posts)I worked in a cafe when I was 17 (out of HS). The place had bands and there was one with 14 and 17 year old brothers. The 17 year old was involved in a relationship with an 18 year old waitress. Perfectly legal since the age of consent in NY is 17.
The waitress got pregnant but claimed the father was not the 17 year old, but his 14 year old brother. She said she was raped by him. Consensual relationship with the older brother, but not the younger one. Tests proved the younger brother was the father.
The brothers parents brought her up on Felony charges. I was only friends with the brothers, but they both talked to me. The old brother said he "egged on" his younger brother to have sex with her for the experience. The younger brother told me that he just wanted to have sex. The waitress told me that she loved the older brother and that the younger one attacked her.
It was a big mess. The older brother considered it all his fault and eventually convinced his parents to just drop the whole thing. The waitress agreed to not seek child support and put the baby up for adoption. They all came to this agreement without going to court.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)quinnox
(20,600 posts)people thought differently and voted it is ok. You sound shocked or something. 
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)quinnox
(20,600 posts)
Electric Monk
(13,869 posts)darkangel218
(13,985 posts)I know me at 14. Sex can cause pregnencies, emotional trauma, stds. 14 is hella young for that.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)
hunter
(38,303 posts)When I quit high school I was eight inches shorter than my adult height and sexually immature. It would have been really creepy if a sexually mature high school senior was having sex with me.
I don't think it's possible to "keep it simple." Human beings reach sexual maturity at different rates. If there's no exceptional differences in sexual maturity or "power" between the 14 year old and the 18 year old, no coercion of any sort, then I think legally we have to overlook the age difference. Given two high school students, of equal sexual maturity, neither one dominating the other by age, physical strength, or sexual experience, then the law ought to dismiss the case as non of the people's business.
Iggo
(47,535 posts) KamaAina
(78,249 posts)My approach to age of consent laws would be that one party must be under 16, and the other must be over 21, to constitute statutory rape. The present system invites selective enforcement, like we're seeing right now in Sebastian, Fla. (You don't seriously believe the parents of the 15-year-old would have turned her 18-year-old boyfriend in the cops, do you?)
Hekate
(90,564 posts)The law takes a dim view of the age of consent issue.
My advice -- same as always -- is to tell boys and girls about the birds and the bees and the law, too. (Not that either one of them asked me, mind you, but at least they knew the facts of life.)
Adolescents are not known for using their heads all the time when it comes to hormonal urges. But if my 18 year old son was ogling a 14 year old and I knew about it, I'd tell him to look for someone his own age, and I'd tell him why. If my daughter was all googly-eyed over an 18 y.o. while she was still in middle school, I'd tell her the same thing. Both parties are vulnerable -- a 14 y.o. is exploitable, and an 18 y.o. is still not quite an adult but will be treated like one by the law.
So glad to be a grandma now,
Hekate
P.S. As to the comments about age of consent for marriage in the US: I hope to God it is no longer 13 y.o. in any state in the Union, the way it was when I was a girl. I remember reading about that when I was 12, and I sat with that and thought about an entire possible life being cut short. That's just wrong.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Normally, kids turn 15 their freshman year of high school. That means they're 14 for at least some of that year.
Apophis
(1,407 posts)It wasn't a big deal. I knew what I was getting myself into and I didn't care.
Response to snooper2 (Original post)
Post removed
ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)
cyberswede
(26,117 posts) 
Quantess
(27,630 posts)As if there isn't anything else going on? 
You're all a bunch of crotch sniffers, obsessed with other people's sex lives.
ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)with two felony counts of lascivious acts with a minor 12-16, with her 14 (now 15)-year-old girlfriend.
I'd rather we weren't "sniffing crotches" in this case because it should have been taken care of out of the courts and before it got this far.
And this is why polls like these make DU suck. No context.
Quantess
(27,630 posts)RC
(25,592 posts)3rd Way, Blue Dog, DLC, "ex-Republican", Right-of -Center, etc. posters here It shows in all the hard line stances in what should be grey areas, or areas where more information would be nice before condemning someone. i.e., black and white thinking. And in personal areas (stuff involving SEX!), that are really nobody's business
The current topic, the real root of the problem is the younger girl's parents, not the age difference. The younger girl was most likely rebelling because of the heavy thumb of her parents. Has anyone even tried to determine the younger girl's sex preference? I kind of doubt it. I think that is kinda important.
This girl was taking advanced classes. That should be noted, too.
That said, what harm has been done and by who in this relationship? If this relationship was consensual, the only harm done was by the younger girl's parents. The worst that should have happened is that the parents, if they didn't like it, was to get together and break it up. No one outside the two families need know. But here we are on DU clucking like hens over the back fence.
Ms. Toad
(33,999 posts)At least as to how it should have been handled, we agree (and as to whether such laws ought to exist).
ThoughtCriminal
(14,046 posts)If (AgeOlder/2)+7 < Age Youger then Relation=Creepy
muriel_volestrangler
(101,271 posts)Just think of it this way - if the age of the older person is very large, and the age of the younger is very small, then the relationship is creepy. So it should read "is greater than the age of the younger, then relationship is creepy". In this case, (18/2)+7 > 14.
ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)
MineralMan
(146,262 posts)There is not enough information in the OP for me to make a complete judgment. I assumed this was about those two girls, but that was not stated.
Also, the difference between OK and illegal is a large difference. I think it is poor judgment for 18 year olds to have sex with 14 year olds, but I wouldn't criminalize it, as long as both were still in high school. I didn't turn 18 until the summer after my senior year, but some kids were 18 during that senior year.
At 17, I was sexually active with my 15 year old girlfriend, and I know of several other couples with the same age difference who were also sexually active. Some are still married, and I graduated in 1963. My girlfriend and I had already been a couple for a year before we engaged in actual intercourse.
Was it a good idea? I dunno, frankly. Probably not. But, it happened nevertheless. A couple of years ago, I heard from my old high school girlfriend. We discussed our early sexual activity in emails, almost 50 years after the fact. As she put it, "I was as eager to have sex as you were. It was a lovely, gentle relationship. No problems as far as I'm concerned."
So, there's one point of data. It happened. It happens a lot in that high school age group, even back then. I guess it depends on the people involved, really.
ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)I don't know very much.
defacto7
(13,485 posts)n/t
H2O Man
(73,510 posts)on a variety of circumstances that "18 and 14" do not fully shed light upon.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)I don't pretend to know one way or the other.
We create imaginary and arbitrary lines for so many things; it's completely legal to drink on the day of one's 21st birthday, but try it 24 hours earlier, and one may be in quite a bit of legal trouble. Engage in sex with a person who turns 18 in three hours and it could be statutory rape... wait three hours and it's perfectly fine.
I don't disagree with the emplacement by a society of arbitrary standards as they allow us to better define the social mores that all cultures depend upon, but if, or when those arbitrary standards no longer reflect our culture, they should be re-evaluated.
Loving v. the state of VA in 1966 (?) and the issue of gay marriage in the here and now illustrate that far too often, the state may lag rather far behind the current evolution of social mores.
So I play it safe, and avoid any sweeping indictments of a statute or a law, and rather focus on how that statute or law applies to a specific and particular case. In the specific and particular case I imagine is being alluded to, I have no negative judgment.
Note for idiots: as qualified in the last three grafs, does not mean I think X is fine or Y is horrible... X and Y being whatever imaginary or non-fictional case you may bring up to contrast and compare... and validate your own opinions with.
dkf
(37,305 posts)That is why the younger person being 14 is a problem. The reason we don't prosecute peers is because they both may be under age.
The power argument exists in many other relationships regardless of age, and most psychological vulnerabilities aren't given as reasons to prosecute unless it was coercion.
Because we can't take individual situations into account we need to create laws based on a number that works. A 14 year old and an adult of any age seems a problem to me.
And equality means even if there isn't a chance of pregnancy of the younger person, it must all be treated the same. All 18 year olds should be sensitive to the fact that they have taken on the new risk of being tried and treated as an adult and that they are now fully responsible for their actions.
Really, if we were being sensible we would restrict this to underaged girls and older men, but being gender neutral means same sex and younger males must also be added to the equation.
FreeState
(10,570 posts)jeff47
(26,549 posts)After all, they won't be producing any kids via sex.
dkf
(37,305 posts)jeff47
(26,549 posts)They're about balance-of-power.
Any kids produced by an underage coupling are protected via other methods. Such as making the grandparents guardians.
The comment about 10-year-old gays was intended for you to figure out you're wrong.
dkf
(37,305 posts)Just like sex with siblings and family members started with too many genetic problems.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,271 posts)with a child of any age. They'd also get a pass if they got the girl to have an abortion, wouldn't they? Just as long as the girl doesn't have to bring up a baby.
I think most people would reject your 'sense' as having little knowledge of the emotional aspects of sexual relationships.
Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)SHOULD a 14-year-old be exposed to fundamentalist religion? If it is a matter of SHOULD - I would say no they SHOULD not be. But should attempting to proselytize a 14-year-old with a fundamentalist religion be a criminal offense considering that exposure to fundamentalist religion especially at such an impressionable age might cause lasting psychological damage? I would say, No it should not be a matter for the criminal justice system. But it is something that perhaps should be discouraged.
DrDan
(20,411 posts)
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)And it shouldn't be a sex-offense felony. They call it "statutory rape", but it's not the same as violently violating a person.
This sort of thing really shouldn't be in the criminal justice system at all.
DrDan
(20,411 posts)do you not draw any lines?
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)DrDan
(20,411 posts)ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)DrDan
(20,411 posts)is 4 years older represent "common sense"?
and how did you interpret "This sort of thing really shouldn't be in the criminal justice system at all."?
ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)Last edited Fri May 24, 2013, 06:21 PM - Edit history (1)
Allowed to play sports together. Allowed to attend school... Common sense.
On edit: Stupid phone!
DrDan
(20,411 posts)FreeState
(10,570 posts)FreeState
(10,570 posts)DrDan
(20,411 posts)that was what I was responding to - I guess that means the poster thinks a difference of 6 years is ok
but I am not really sure - could mean something else
FreeState
(10,570 posts)ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)Apologies. I've only recently gotten a stupid phone. I mean a smart phone. It should also have read play sports together and attend classes together.
davidn3600
(6,342 posts)Is that if two teens are together within the same peer group, this should not be a crime.
Teens that are sharing the same classes, the same sports teams, the same lunch periods, the same buses to and from school, etc... they are going to interact. Bonds are going to form. They are going to form friendships, relationships, and yes some of these may get intimate.
And I dont think you can draw up any law that is going to stop this. Unless you want the schools to segregate everyone by age. Do you want the schools to set up zones where only seniors can go or freshman can go? Is that the answer?
DrDan
(20,411 posts)very different things.
Having taught both age groups, I think there are VERY different levels of maturity between a 14 year old and an 18 year old.
justiceischeap
(14,040 posts)Basically, this case is hard because it's between 2 high school students. So basically, as this law stands, no one in high school can date (have sex with) anyone younger without the risk of a felony conviction. I think this case is about more than though, I do think there are elements of homophobia going on here and if the daughter were dating an older boy, there *probably* wouldn't have been a case brought against him.
I don't think the issue here is so much the legality, it's obvious what was done is illegal if you follow the law. It's that this case seems to be being pushed further because of the 18 yr. olds sexuality. The parents seem more concerned that she *turned* their daughter gay than the fact they had sex.
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)However, they are both too emotionally immature to handle sex, serious relationships and all the trauma that it brings.
DrDan
(20,411 posts)I don't see them "emotionally pretty close to the same age" at all
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)In a teen's freshman year, they are suddenly thrust from being a top dog to low person on the totem pole. There is a strong desire to fit in, to be accepted. While in the case that is the hot topic the sex and relationship was consensual, in a general sense (since that's what the OP posits) there is likely to be peer pressure or a subconcious coercion that exists. One way to be accepted by older students is to have a relationship or sex with one. That is why a 14 yo is deemed to be too young to have consensual sex.
FreeState
(10,570 posts)according to the police report (the recorded conversation). I highly doubt that the 18 year old used peer pressure to have sex with her.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)It is certainly possible that a 14yo would consent to a relationship or sex in a subconcious desire to be accepted and fit in with with the other students...approx 75% of whom are older. Seems very likely to me, and also seems like a poor reason to enter into a relationship or have sex...yet 14 yos might not be able to distinguish the difference.
BlueStreak
(8,377 posts)For horses, that's a bit old for the stud.
Same for dogs and cats, but if he can get it up, go for it.
For turtles and panda bears, no problem.
For camels and elephants, I'd say 18 on 14 is ideal.
Can you be any more specific?
Yo_Mama
(8,303 posts)is that in some cases it might be. Some kids mature pretty early in comparison to others, and there's often a pretty big difference in emotional/psychological maturity levels.
As a general rule, I don't think it is proper or all that healthy. There's usually too much disparity between the two.
burnodo
(2,017 posts)That's debateable I guess. But it happens every day, all over the world.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)davidn3600
(6,342 posts)Age of consent in Europe varies wildely... but many on this list may shock you....
13
Spain
14
Albania
Austria
Bosnia
Bulgaria
Estonia
Germany
Italy
Macedonia
Montenegro
Portugal
San Marino
Serbia
15
Croatia
Czech Republic
Denmark
France
Greece
Hungary
Iceland
Monaco
Poland
Romania
Slovenia
Sweden
16
Azerbaijan
Armenia
Belarus
Belgium
England
Finland
Georgia
Latvia
Lithuania
Luxembourg
Moldova
Netherlands
Norway
Russia
Scotland
Switzerland
Ukraine
Wales
17
Cyprus
Ireland
18
Malta
Turkey
Enforcement also varies. In Russia for example, enforcement of these laws is very selective. In Spain, age of consent is 13 but there are many provisions that protect a child under 16. So technically the age of consent is 16, but it can be as low as 13 depending on the situation.
DesertFlower
(11,649 posts)14 year old girls had sex with their 17 and 18 year old boyfriends. most got pregnant and got married. if that happened today, it would be against the law.
kentuck
(111,052 posts)would never stop bragging if they could bed the 18 year old cheerleader... 
Vogon_Glory
(9,109 posts)I don't believe it's OK for 18 (or 17 or 16 16 year-old) year old gets or gays to have sex with 14-year olds.
The majority of 14 year olds are too emotionally immature to add sex to a relationship. I realize that love and desire may exist, but I think that the older party ought to wait at least three years more before consuming the relationship here in the US, in enlightened Europe, or in someplace like Afghanistan.
moobu2
(4,822 posts)one for it unless the younger person was forced or otherwise coerced.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)Certainly in the case that has recently been discussed on DU, I would not prosecute.