Another sex poll

[BainsBane]

Do you think it's okay for a 16 year old to have sex with a 12 year old.

If your vote is different in this poll from the other two, please explain why below.

17 votes, 1 pass | Time left: Unlimited
	Yes
	1 (6%)
	No
	16 (94%)
	It\'s complicated, explain below
	0 (0%)
	1 DU member did not wish to select any of the options provided.
Show usernames Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll

[Nye Bevan]

1. I sincerely hope that DUers vote 100% "no" on this.

The other thread where DUers were arguing that it should be legal for 13 year olds to have sex with adults was getting majorly creepy. (Although Roman Polanski would probably beg to differ).

[BainsBane]

4. Woah

I didn't read that stuff. Which thread is it in? The 14 to 18 one or the 16 to 23?

[Nye Bevan]

10. 14-18. (nt)

[MattBaggins]

2. Is it ok for my female cat to dry hump my male dog?

[BainsBane]

3. make a poll and find out

[Cali_Democrat]

48. No please don't

[davidpdx]

59. I'm going to go with yes on that one

As long as it is a three way with Rick Santorum.

[Warren DeMontague]

5. No.

But given that both are minors, I question as to what ought to be "done" about it.

How about 16 and 15?

[BainsBane]

6. I'd say that depends on the 15 and 16 year old

I don't see the age difference as a problem, but it depends if both are mature enough to be having sex. Just because you have sex doesn't mean you're ready for it.

I have no idea what the law is for sex between minors.

[Warren DeMontague]

8. I ask about 16 and 15 because that was a pretty standard occurrence when I was growing up.

So much so as to be a pretty big part of the norm. I lost my virginity at 16, and I was hardly an outlier.

I think as people get older, they want to believe teenagers aren't having sex, but they did, we certainly did, and they still do.

I understand the rationale for age of consent laws, particularly when you're talking about over 18 and under... but the reality is that teenagers do have sex. In the example in your op, I think 12 is too young. But by the time kids are in high school, a lot of them are doing it. At least that's how it was in my day, and I can't imagine it's changed.

[BainsBane]

12. I think they have sex younger now

that's my general impression. No statutory rape law would apply to a one year age difference. They set a minimum or two years between partners, some states three or four years.

[Warren DeMontague]

43. But was your poll about the law, or about the "okayness" of the act?

As I said upthread, regarding the example in your poll, I don't think it's okay but I'm not sure what the law would have to say about it, particularly given the fact that they're both juveniles.

I also recognize the need for age of consent laws while believing there is an obvious fundamental difference between an 18 year old having sex with a 16 year old and a 40 year old having sex with a 16 year old, despite the fact that both involve a technical adult.

[BainsBane]

45. since someone accused me of trying to entrap

DUers by betting them to admit to violating the law , I looked it up. Firstly, the poll was about views, not the law. As in the case of the other two polls, the law and what people think is right can differ, and people were free to make that distinction as they did in other polls. As for the law, it turns out states vary a great deal on sex between minors, and 12 is one year too young for most. Many states have laws that say having sex with someone younger than thirteen is against the law, and they differ in how many years must separate the person charged, generally three to four. There are various degrees of charges in any state. For example, in MN a 15 yr old can legally have sex with a 12 year old but a 16 yr old cannot. In California, sex with anyone under 18 is illegal. http://aspe.hhs.gov/hsp/08/sr/statelaws/statelaws.shtml
Most states, however, differentiate culpability based on the age of the older person. Some have worse penalties for someone ten years older than the young teenager. Some of the Southern states like MS wave statutory rape charges in the event of marriage. The legal age for marriage must be low there.

After having looked at some of those laws, I should have set the lower age of the poll at 13.

[Warren DeMontague]

46. I know it certainly was in Jerry Lee Lewis's day, not that that's right either.

Anyway, my point in asking wasn't to impugn your motives on posting the poll, just to get a little clarification.

I think all these cases- the so-called "romeo and juliet" cases- are tough from a legal standpoint. I think when you're talking about the 18 year old girl and her 14 year old girlfriend, it's vitally important to make sure that the law isn't treating their relationship different than it would a hetero one, and that she's not being singled out for prosecution in a conservative area based upon the same-sex aspect of the relationship.

[BainsBane]

50. They are treating it differently in one key sense

They are prosecuting a woman, which rarely happens in cases where a male is the victim. This has something that has bothered me a long time, even when male friends laughed about cases like Debra LeFavre, the Florida teacher who had sex with a 14 year old but never did jail time. Much of the media attention and public comments focused on how beautiful she was, so the boy couldn't have minded having sex. This kind of attitude prevails when boys are victim to older female predators, despite the fact that psychological studies show that male victims share much of the same negative effects than female victims do.

If the older person had been male in this case, I believe they would have prosecuted, but not if the younger person had been male and the older female. Someone mentioned that 95% of statutory rape prosecutions are against men. While I can agree than males are more likely than females to engage in that conduct, I think it unlikely the gap is as different as those statistics suggest.

[Warren DeMontague]

52. I agree that the law needs to be consistent in enforcement and prosecution.

The genders and orientations should not be a factor, any which way.

[Ms. Toad]

71. Actually - there are statutory rape laws

which apply regardless of the difference. An 18 year old adult whose birthday is today could be charged with statutory rape of a 17 year old whose 18th birthday is tomorrow in some states.

[NightWatcher]

7. Why is everyone so concerned with teen sex

Put you kid in braces and make them march in the band and you won't have to deal with it until they're 25.

But then there's the drugs and booze on band trips... Nevermind.

[BainsBane]

9. because of the case about the 18 yr old

women in Florida charged with statutory rape for having sex with a 14 year old girl. That's what got all this going.

[morningfog]

11. I don't get the obssession with teen sex either.

It has always happened, it always will. Hopefully more and more will use appropriate protection and less and less will be the product of force or coercion.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

13. i also dont think 20 year olds should date 30 year olds

but i am not about to make it illegal

[Nye Bevan]

14. Seriously? Why on earth not? (nt)

[morningfog]

16. I assume the same reason the others are against the 14 and 18 year olds.

Arbitrary age differential.

[BainsBane]

15. What would you make illegal?

If you were drawing up laws about age of consent and statutory rape, what do you think would be best?

[morningfog]

17. I think you are getting to the greater point. What should and should not happen is different

than what should or should not be a felony.

[Warren DeMontague]

44. I don't think 65 year olds should date 68 year olds.

Too much potential for Manilow.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1018&pid=394862

[XemaSab]

47. When I was 25

I dated a guy who was 45.

Guys in their 20s are assholes.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

63. guys in their 40's who date girls in their 20's by and large are no gems either

usually obvi your case might have been different

[galileoreloaded]

64. my experience is that women in their 20's hunt men in their 40's like prey

at least around ASU and Scottsdale.

its open season on wallets from friday 5PM to sunday at 9pm.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

65. LOL. yes someone half your age/wisdom and power is clearly taking advantage

again, people in their 40's who date 20 year old in my experience are no great moral gems

[galileoreloaded]

66. i dont think morals play really

it just the nature of the transactional relationship.

its interesting to watch our culture groan and vibrate apart like a rickety windmill in a hurricane.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

67. depends on your definition of morality. to me treating someone else

as a transaction is a lack in morality

[galileoreloaded]

68. well then every human interaction you or anyone ever has is by your definition

immoral, because they are ALL transactional by their very nature.

thats why morality is such a touchy subject sometimes. understanding your humanity and its true nature can be depressing for a bit, but you can't hide from it for ever although damn people do try.

systems of control thrive on morality and the deep human desire to see yourself as something much more than what you are. gurgling biology in a chemical, emotional matrix.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

69. no, i dont see other people's bodies merely transactionally

i dont see how my buying them drinks translates to them giving me sex

i have never had a problem with sex workers, but i do have a huge moral problem with johns

power differences and status differences to me matter a lot and i would never date someone who wasn't in a very similar power/status bracket

[ZombieHorde]

18. I don't know for certain, but it seems off to me.

Twelve is very young, and I am skeptical that a twelve year old can consent in the same way as a sixteen year old, but I am not sure if there are any recent psychological studies that confirm or contradict my skepticism.

[morningfog]

19. I voted other. I can't rationalize any arbitrary cut-off ages.

Although, I certainly believe 12 is too young for someone to give consent, it is the criminalizing consensual acts that I have a problem with. I also think there are many 16 year olds who are not all that more mature than 12 year olds. I don't think the scenario listed is "okay" but I don't think it should necessarily warrant criminal charges.

With a wide range of when people go through and complete puberty and socially mature at different ages, I can't say who should and should not be permitted to make decisions regarding their bodies, and when, to the point of making acts a crime.

[BainsBane]

20. Do you know what the laws are about this sort of thing?

Would sex between minors of that age gap currently be illegal?

[morningfog]

23. I don't know off hand. I know there are laws that

make illegal sexual acts or even lewd acts between someone under 14 where the other is 10 years older. I don't know what other age gaps at this age are illegal. I think in most places, under 14 or under 12 is always a crime though.

[sarisataka]

21. Are we talking about chimpanzees?

[BainsBane]

22. no, AR-15s

[sarisataka]

24. I have never understood how to differentiate between male and female

AR-15s

Pitbulls are pretty easy to tell but usually don't live to 16

[BainsBane]

25. Silly

the female AR-15 is pink https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&authuser=0&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1024&bih=643&q=pink+ar15&oq=pink+ar15&gs_l=img.12..0l5j0i5l2j0i24l2j0i10i24.1118.3783.0.5471.9.9.0.0.0.0.226.975.6j2j1.9.0.cpsugrccggmnoe..0.0.0..1.1.12.img._3otrC4iyps

[sarisataka]

27. Well that certainly does simplify things

[BainsBane]

26. There is even a Hello Kitty one

Mon dieu

[Historic NY]

28. Why are we even polling this?

[BainsBane]

29. There are two other polls

about this kind of thing with different age spreads. The whole thing got started following the case of the 18 yr old woman charged with having sex with a 14 yr old girl.

[quinnox]

30. I think this poll is inappropriate

Since you know in the United States that 12 years old is considered way too young and it is illegal, this thread is almost like asking "would you approve of a crime?"

[BainsBane]

31. Is it a crime?

Statutory rape laws apply to adults. Are there laws regulating this particular age spread? It the person were an adult, clearly. I've looked a bit online and haven't yet found a discussion of laws about sex between minors.

[quinnox]

32. oh come on, you are being coy

you know just by common sense and knowledge that nowhere in the United States is having sexual intercourse with a 12 year old won't be considered a crime and illegal!

It is a crime and this poll is asking people (at least in the U.S., which is most of us) to potentially admit to approving a crime. That is, or should be, out of bounds in my opinion.

[BainsBane]

34. it varies

I found a list of laws by state. In MN, sex between a 12 yr old and 15 yr old would be legal, but not a 16 year old. http://aspe.hhs.gov/hsp/08/sr/statelaws/statelaws.shtml

[quinnox]

36. whatever, you know what I'm saying

I don't like the coyness and pretending you don't understand my point!

[BainsBane]

37. how about you stop attributing nefarious motives to me?

The other poll surveyed illegal activity as well. It most jurisdictions sex between a 14 and an 18 yr old is illegal.

I'm not a lawyer. I did not know what the law was for sex between minors. We are talking about minors here. Not an adult and a minor.

[BainsBane]

38. In California it's illegal to have sex with anyone under 18

so both previous polls asked about activity illegal there.
http://aspe.hhs.gov/hsp/08/sr/statelaws/statelaws.shtml#California

[quinnox]

40. I think your motives were pretty clear and it was a poll to get duers in trouble

I think this poll was in very bad taste. I said my opinion and I'm tired of posting back and forth about it, and especially with you keep quoting state laws at me.

[BainsBane]

42. when you accuse me of promoting illegal activity

or trying to trap people, the law is indeed relevant. It's not like voting in an online poll is evidence of sexual assault.

[BainsBane]

35. Look at MD

http://aspe.hhs.gov/hsp/08/sr/statelaws/statelaws.shtml The statute says "at least 4 yrs older" so 16 would be the cut off. It's not as clear cut as you think.

[lumberjack_jeff]

33. "Okay?" probably little controversy. A better question would be the appropriate consequences. n/t

[LWolf]

39. I think its not okay

for their to be an imbalance of power in any sexual relationship. Age is certainly part of that.

I think the repetitive asking of this question with various ages attached is a waste of time. I didn't vote in any of the polls.

If you really want to get to the core of the issue, address the imbalance of power. If you are attempting to justify a position on a current event, state your position and stand behind it.

People have sex. Relationships, whether serious or casual, regardless of the duration, are unhealthy and undesirable when there is an imbalance of power between the people. That's what I think.

[Blaukraut]

41. It's less the age than the age DIFFERENCE at their current age

A 4 year age difference between a 12 and a 16 year old is huge. We're talking 1/3 and 1/4 of their lifetimes, respectively. The older the couple, the less a 4 year age difference matters.

There are 12 year olds who have sex. Personally, I would have been appalled if either of my daughters had been sexually active at that age, but it happens. It's not ok, and it's especially not ok if the partner is 4 years older. In the case of the 14 and 18 year old, again, the age difference is what I find troublesome.

[Cali_Democrat]

51. It should be illegal to date anyone outside of your age

This should apply to children AND adults.

In fact, it should be mandatory for people to only date other people born on their own birthday to avoid this situation.

Problem solved.

[BainsBane]

53. I've had two boyfriends with my same birthday

oddly enough. Scorpio on Scorpio can be rough going.

[Cali_Democrat]

58. Boom!

[davidpdx]

60. So is Gemini on Gemini

Hence my parent's divorce. My mom is 9 days older than my dad was.

[Scootaloo]

54. I voted "other"

It will be my only vote in any of these polls. And the reason is, I'd like to see something "other" than these polls.

[BainsBane]

55. I sympathize

I get sick of stupid polls myself, but then I went and did one.

[defacto7]

56. How about 14 1/4 and 15 7/8?

[BainsBane]

57. legal most places

http://aspe.hhs.gov/hsp/08/sr/statelaws/statelaws.shtml

[davidpdx]

61. In scenario most of the time I think it would be safe to assume the male was 16 and female was 12

It would rarely be the other way around. Personally I don't care, but if I knew the 16 yo male the advice I'd give him not to do it just because of the way prosecutors are in some areas. Also the female's parents could press the issue no matter what the laws are even if it was consensual. Now if it were the other way around I don't know. As I said, I think that is a little more rare.

[Kablooie]

62. *Anyone* having sex with a 12 year old isn't a great idea.

As Humbert Humbert can tell you.

[Ms. Toad]

70. Same request I made to the posters of the other two polls

Please distinguish "not OK" from "criminal."

There are lots and lots of things I believe are not ok that I do not believe should be criminal.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

72. yup. i think lying is not ok. hardly going to criminalize lying.

[BainsBane]

73. Ok is what you think is okay

You can make your own judgment and distinguish between the two. That is one of the reasons I included the it's complicated option.

[Ms. Toad]

74. Unfortunately,

This question is being asked in the context of a young woman charged with a crime. A lot of people are not distinguishing between the understandable angst they feel about their (or anyone else's) 14 year old being sexually active, and whether there should be criminal consequences for that activity.

[BainsBane]

75. That's true

I myself am not comfortable determining what should be criminal. I am more comfortable saying what I think it right.

[Ms. Toad]

77. In another context,

I wouldn't have reacted the same way - it is just that we are in the middle of heated discussion about very real people, and people seem unable to separate bad idea from criminal.

[BainsBane]

78. You always raise good points

I appreciate hearing. I'm glad you voice those concerns.

[LostOne4Ever]

79. Im waiting for the poll

Im waiting for the poll in which you have kids of two different ages both moving at different speeds (near the speed of light) causing their age range to be in a constant state of flux and changing at an exponential rate so that everyone has to use a differential equation to determine if it was appropriate or not.