Foreign kings' names

[Bucky]

Why say German Kaiser, but Austrian Emperor? Why say Russian Czar, but Spanish King? Why is the current Spanish monarch "Juan Carlos" if he's named after Kings "John" and "Charles"?
Is this dude the Tenno? ==>

Do you prefer to say Kaiser Wilhelm or William? Wikipedia lists the German Kaisers in this order:
William I => Frederick III => Wilhelm II

Do you prefer to refer to use the foriegn name or the anglicized name?

11 votes, 0 passes | Time left: Unlimited
	Use the names as pronounced in the language of the country
	8 (73%)
	I'm happy with the inconsistancy - not worth worrying about
	3 (27%)
	Anglicizing the names make for more clarity
	0 (0%)
	0 DU members did not wish to select any of the options provided.
Show usernames Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll

[Drale]

1. Kaiser and Czar come from Ceaser and Emperor

is English for the Latin Imperator, meaning leader. We usually use what they use in the country of origin.

[Bucky]

6. We use Emperor for what the Austrians called Kaiser. So that's one exception.

We say "Sultan of Turkey" but "King of France" even though sultan is the Turkish word for roi. There really is no consistancy.

[Bad Thoughts]

57. The Bonapartes were empereur, not roi

Neither Napoleon Ier or IIIer were kings, but emperors. The monarchs who followed Napoleon were kings. It described their relationship with France, and the title shift was not inconsequential. Indeed, the Bourbons, who returned to power in 1815, were anxious to define their authority in terms of traditional aristocratic authority, distancing themselves from the relationship between ruler and people that Napoleon cultivated.

[Canuckistanian]

2. Both "Kaiser" and "Czar" were derived from "Caesar"

Just some useless trivia.....

[Cleita]

3. English is a messy language with many languages at its roots.

I prefer to go with whatever the common usage of the day is. btw Kaiser and Czar stem from Caesar. King comes from Khan and the German version is König.

[Bucky]

9. I'm pretty sure King doesn't come from Khan.

King is a protoGermanic term meaning ruler. Khan is probably Turkic. I'd be pretty surprised if they weren't from entirely separate etymologies, even if there's an ancient Indoeuropean link.

[Cleita]

29. Khan is a derivative of a Indo-Aryan language. Qatun is the female

or what we would call Queen. It's very tangled and yes the turks and mongols adopted the word for their chieftains which they took from much older Indi.

[muriel_volestrangler]

59. No, it's Turkic

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khan_%28title%29

[Cleita]

62. It's up for debate. Even linguists aren't sure but

khan is a Sanskrit word although in context, it doesn't mean king. Believe what you like and I will believe what I like considering Turkic seems to have evolved later than Sanskrit.

[muriel_volestrangler]

63. If you can show a single linguist who considers it, fine

We will, in the mean time, stick with the dictionaries that say it's Turkic.

If you're tying it to Sanskrit, what is the Sanskrit word you think it's related to? And at what point do you think Germanic languages picked up 'khan' from a Turkic one to transform it into 'könig' etc., and in what area?

[Cleita]

64. Frankly, who really cares. It's related to our words king and konig and it

actually seems to have come from the ancient Scythians who were some of the first Indo-Europeans.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4f/IndoEuropeanTree.svg

It's in the above chart. But I'm not getting into a pissing match with you about it because there are various theories about it. This is the one I accept.

You might be interested in this too.

http://www.science20.com/news_articles/not_just_genghis_khan_scythians_show_genetic_blending_europe_2000_years_ago-96314

[muriel_volestrangler]

65. Not a Turk in sight in that chart

which rather seems to go against your personal hypothesis, doesn't it? And why should Scythians meeting Mongols in the Altai mountains only 2,500 years ago cause a Turkic word to turn up in all the Germanic languages a few thousand miles to the west? Or why would it even indicate that 'khan' comes from a still unidentified Sanskrit word? Scythians weren't Germanic; they weren't Indian. They're typically held to be associated with the Iranians (and that's where the language chart you accept puts them).

Calling the Scythians "some of the first Indo-Europeans" is ridiculous. The chart doesn't claim that; indeed, it shows only four languages coming from Scythian - of which only 1 is still alive - Ossetian. The Scythians seem to be a complete red herring. Your claim is that 'king' can be traced back from Germanic languages to the Turkic 'khan', and from there to Sanskrit - but you have not yet divulged the Sankrit word. So far, you've shown no evidence, just said "because Scythians".

[Posteritatis]

39. Khan's definitely Turkic, not Indo-European. (nt)

[The Magistrate]

4. Both 'Kaiser' And 'Czar', Sir, Derive From 'Caeser'

The man had a lasting influence.

Referring to an Austro-Hungarian Emperor is a convenience of English; in the official correspondence of the time, Kaiser was employed, the full title being 'Imperial and Royal', as he was emperor of Austria and King of Hungary.

The foreign titles are more accurate, but the English are easier, and I expect that is how the thing is mostly decided....

[Bucky]

10. Interesting. I'm still not sure why the courtesy was extended to Germany but not Austria.

Both nations were "Imperial and Royal". The German Emperor/Kaiser was also the Konig/King of Prussia.

[The Magistrate]

15. No Idea, Sir

Place names often have the same sort of substitutions, and that is without getting into extreme differences in pronunciation that can arise from consistent spellings across languages.

[Posteritatis]

40. A lot of it's how those nations refer to the terms themselves

There's also a bit of the divergence in the terms themselves. "Tsar" basically means "Emperor," for instance, but a small pile of centuries have added enough connotations to the term that it carries a different meaning than the original "we're a Roman emperor, too!"

Something similar for the German kaiser, though more quickly and dramatically because of how Reich II showed up like that. They were also trying to draw parallels to the Roman throne and had been for centuries, too. The Austro-Hungarian emperor was 'just' an emperor in the traditional sense of "ruler of multiple kingdoms" - while the term was still "kaiser" he didn't have the Rome-specific baggage that was historically a bigger deal in Germany before its unification.

On a more human level, I don't think Franz Josef as an individual would have been that much about aggrandizing himself to that extent in the first place.

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. Tenno is Emperor, reserved for the descendant of Amaterasu

The western terms come Caesar, and in Spain Compound names are common. the tittle of King Juan Carlos, is Rey Juan Carlos.

[OldEurope]

7. Rey like the French roi is from

the Latin rex = king.

Edited to add: Regina means queen.

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. Yup

[Bucky]

11. My favorite royal title is the feminine form of "assistant monarch"

Male: Viceroy
Female: Vicereine

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. That is a good one

[Recursion]

36. And marquess is male, weirdly

The feminine is marchionette

[muriel_volestrangler]

60. 'Marchioness', not '-ette' (nt)

[Recursion]

61. d'oh Thank you (nt)

[hrmjustin]

12. Saying the name in their launguage seems proper to me.

[OldEurope]

18. But how do you know how to pronounce them?

Take the some Polish or Hungarian king, Kazimiersz, Hunyadi Mátyás.
Or the Chinese...
How could you possibly pronounce all languages correctly?

[hrmjustin]

19. Research and luck.

[Posteritatis]

42. Many of us already meet a staggering variety of names and do alright.

I'm comfortable with expanding that a little, particularly if the people being referred to insist on it.

[MichaelMcGuire]

14. Refer 'Ri' or modern usage in my native tongue 'Righ'

[Bucky]

16. Oh. So that's why it's called a "Royal Sandwich"

A Big Cheese on Rye

[Bucky]

17. Or, as the French pronounced it...

"Henri"

[MichaelMcGuire]

21. It's pronounced 'ree'

Variety of rí or rank of is used. A king over other kings i.e.

[LibertyLover]

28. In Ireland

the High King, or king over kings, is the Ard Ri.

[Bucky]

31. I can Ard Ri believe it!

Or as the French pronounce it "Ahh can Henri believe eet!"

[Posteritatis]

44. [wail of anguish] (nt)

[MichaelMcGuire]

48. Rí ruirech

Rí benn ruler of a single túath

Ri buiden ruler of many túath (ruiri)

Ri ruirech ruler of many ruiri i.e. king of over kings

Ard Rí na hÉireann (High Kings of Ireland) its full title (Ard means High in Irish)

Scotland and Ireland share similar Gaelic traditions, translated to English many of these 'petty kings' would become Lords however proper usage/styled Ri as in their native tongues. MacBheatha mac Fhionnlaigh was a ruiri (king) of Moray, ruiri (king) of Fortriu (pictland) and of Alba (Scots)

[MichaelMcGuire]

20. haha unrelated sadly

[Nye Bevan]

22. Why say "Par-iss" and not "Par-eee"?

If we are going to start worrying about this kind of inconsistency we will be here a long time.

[uppityperson]

25. Paris is a city, not a king.

[Nye Bevan]

26. Thanks. That's very helpful (nt)

[LooseWilly]

50. Pedantry is a two-edged sword.

And irony makes me giggle.

[Bucky]

32. Right. Plus there's only one *real* Paris (and this is a Texan saying this)

But all those Charleses and Williams get confusing, which is something that can be taken care of if you allow for Wilhelms and Guillaums and Carloses and Karls into the mix.

[Spider Jerusalem]

37. Because the English pronunciation hasn't changed as much as the French one has

it was pronounced as it is now in English in the Middle Ages, or very close to it; word-final "s" was voiced and not silent in Old French (and "Paris" is from from Latin "Parisi&quot .

[Tx4obama]

45. Also the word: Italy in Italy is Italia. Prounounced: E-tah-lee-ah

And in Italy - United States is: Stati Uniti

I've always thought it is strange that names of countries are referred to differently outside of country of origin.

[Orrex]

23. Let's call the whole thing off.

[Retrograde]

24. I don't talk about them enough to worry about it

Now, why in the US we anglicize the names of some countries but not others...

[Fearless]

27. It has to do with importance historically

The more important someone or something is the more likely we give it an Anglicanized word or terminology.

If the actual home language is closely related to English/Germanic or a Romance language we are more likely to let it stand.

Or when in doubt, if it's easy to say we keep it. If not we don't.

[Bucky]

38. I'm not sure either of those proposed rules work out in practice

The more important someone or something is the more likely we give it an Anglicanized word or terminology.

I think the root of Anglicizing the names comes from the medieval practice of first Latinizing all names for official or legal documents. But the practice of Anglicizing seems more to be tied to older names. For instance Kaiser Wilhelm II, as monarch during WW1, is significantly more important to history than the guy we call "Kaiser William I"--a mere figurehead for Bismark's consolidation of a pan-German empire. The less significant character is historically recounted in English. The line of Russian potentates are never translated as "Czar John the Great" or "Tsar John the Terrible"--it's always Ivan. But the ancient obscure legend of "Prester John", the supposed sovereign of the mythical Christendom beyond the Turks (either Africa or India or Eden, depending on the retelling) was always rendered into the local Christian language. I think the rule is that in moderner times, the tradition of anglicizing has been dropped.

If the actual home language is closely related to English/Germanic or a Romance language we are more likely to let it stand.

Again, we stay with Czar and Sultan and Bey and Maharaja for the faraway titles, but switch over to "king" for the French (roi), Spanish (rey), German (konig), Dutch (koning), and Italian (re). So in terms of titles, the closer titles are translated and the more exotic ones embraced. And yet there's a limit. The furthest cultures in the Far East (wang, tenno), Africa (malik, mfalme), and the Americas (tlatoani) saw their foreign titles ignored in lieu of English ones.

So perhaps the rule here is that the closer ones get anglicized, the "exotic but recognizable" ones don't get translated, but the globally distant cultures are so extreme that translated titles need be rendered in a form that English-language readers can comprehend.

[Bad Thoughts]

58. The extent to which a concept can be argued to be unique matters

First, the discussion should be different for concepts and proper names. Wilhelm II probably became preeminent in order to emphasize his Germanness during WWI.

Second, the titles you refer to probably hold because of the sense that they are sui generis. Medieval and Early Modern kings emerged via feudal relationships: they might be recognized anywhere. However, in larger, more complex entities, power was conceptualized in other terms, like the uniting of the realm (Reich) or the people of the country (peuple or nation). Kaiser and Tsar probably hold because of the influence that those countries held at the time. The same could be said about Victoria: why did she not adopt an Indian title instead of being named Empress of India?

[Posteritatis]

41. The opposite's often the case: tsar, reich, sultan... (nt)

[Fearless]

56. All easy to say.

[Art_from_Ark]

30. Well, today's Japanese Tenno

is usually called "Emperor" in English, although at one time Japanese emperor/tenno was called the Mikado.

[Bucky]

33. I used to make that mistake too.

I've since learned that "Mikado" only means "gate" and the English inaccurately exported that name to the Tenno much in the way the Egyptians called their emperor pharaoh, meaning "house" or the Texans called their governor slick, meaning "good hair."

[Art_from_Ark]

34. I don't know where you learned that "mikado" means "gate"

but you may be confusing it with "kado" (門 , which does mean "gate". The character for "mikado" is 帝, which is also pronounced as "tei" when it is used in words like "teikoku" (帝国 , which means "empire".

[Recursion]

35. The emperor was also king of Hungary and Bohemia

Or, the Kaiser was also Koenig. He had to be a Kaiser to outrank the King of Saxony.

[Posteritatis]

43. When in doubt I try to go by what's officially used in other languages

If Japan referred to Akihito as Tenno in English-language statements, for instance, then I'd use that title. As it is, however, the Imperial Household Agency uses the term "Emperor" in English, and so that's that for me. That general pattern holds for most of the titles you're thinking about - we call the Spanish monarch "King Juan Carlos" because that's how the Spanish refer to him when speaking English. With that sort of thing the would-be-translatee is the final arbiter - especially at that level, where diplomatic niceties are going to make it effectively mandatory anyway.

If I have no indication at all I enjoy trying to learn and use (or at least just know) the local names and titles. I run across lots of translated names historically (I'm a Roman history geek) and have always found going by the 'true names' does a lot to humanize societies that are a bit more off the mental radar. It's a fun challenge in particular when digging really far back in history, and tends to humanize some of the guys we only ever really knew of in terms of a few dusty names.

[LostOne4Ever]

46. I try to avoid anglicizing names if I know better

If the people of the home country use one name, I think we should try and use that name too. For Example, I try to use the term Nihon instead of Japan.

[Nye Bevan]

47. Me too. I always say "zhong guo" (pronounced "jum gwoo") instead of China, for example.

And "Deutschland" instead of Germany. "Espana" instead of "Spain". And "Sverige" (pronounced "sveryeah&quot instead of Sweden.

[pampango]

51. Do the Kims in North Korea count as 'kings' - grandfather - father - son - sounds like royalty.

[NYC Liberal]

52. I dunno. I go with what's common, and popular usage of words/terms isn't always logical

or consistent.

I would guess almost all Germans call Obama "Präsident", or Spainiards "Presidente", instead of the English "President".

It's like the silliness at the Olympics a few years ago where the news networks were calling Turin "Torino" but they weren't saying "Italia" or "Roma".

[WinkyDink]

53. I think this is where "potato--potahto" come in.

[Bad Thoughts]

54. German: Imperator and Kaiser are different concepts

The emperor exercises certain types of power. The Kaiser unites the realm. It is often assumed that the two are one in the same. However, the first Kaisers of Germany (Holy Roman Empire) did not exercise imperial authority outside of their own realms (what would come to be known as the Austrian side of Austria-Hungary).

[Recursion]

55. And yet they were also Kings in their own right, as a separate question

So much of the 30 Years War was based around the fact that "King of Bohemia" and "Holy Roman Emperor" were not officially equivalent.