I've known a LOT of cops

[jazzimov]

a couple were guys I went to school with and ran into later. A lot of them I got to know because I worked in several Convenience Stores, many times during 2nd and 3rd shift (free coffee, free food, anything to keep a cop car parked in your lot as long as possible...).

A couple were "run-ins" (and, yes, there was usually a girl involved - ).

One thing I have learned, is that Cops are PEOPLE. some are complete a-holes who only wanted a badge to make them feel "big". Some are the nicest folks you'd ever want to meet. And everything in the middle.

I've seen a few posts here trying to broad-brush "cops" as face-less puppets of a Police State. But they are PEOPLE. They are only doing what they have been ordered to do, by the people that they trust. Yes, some of them relish in asserting their authority by beating up defenseless victims. Some of them care enough to bring milk to babies, or stop a high-speed chase to lead ducklings out of the middle of the road. Some of them react out of fear. Most of them are over-worked. Many of them suffer from PTSD but just "shake it off" because that's what they perceive is expected of them.

But, bottom line - they are PEOPLE.

[MannyGoldstein]

1. Here's one of my local inhuman cyborgs

Fascist!

[onehandle]

2. Clearly on his way to waterboard a perp with milk. nt

[Common Sense Party]

68. Milkboard.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

5. Notice the expression. Is he out of breath? Or pissed because he's bringing milk to someone?

[MannyGoldstein]

13. He totally volunteered, and was cool with it

Watertown resident tells story behind viral photo of Brookline officer delivering milk

Watertown resident tells story behind viral photo of Brookline officer delivering milk

"Bradley came running down to see if everything was O.K., McKenzie said. Sommers assured him it was no emergency, just that they were almost out of milk and they had a small child in the house.

“He said, ‘No problem, I’ll get you milk,’” McKenzie said. “I’d say in less than an hour he was back.

“It was super sweet, we didn’t expect that to happen,” she added. “We offered to pay him for the milk, but he wouldn’t take our money.”

That's a mile from my house. The cops are really like that. I swear.

[telclaven]

110. Faith in humanity

Restoring

[alittlelark]

15. He looks tired and worn-out to me

[Downtown Hound]

55. If people took random pictures of me throughout the day

I'm sure I'd have more than a few questionable expressions on my face. LOL.

[mokawanis]

26. I knew someone would post that pic

I guess all cops are good, cuz one of them delivered milk in Boston.

[JaneyVee]

59. How do we know he's not confiscating the milk?

[FrodosPet]

79. Who said that?

Is anyone here saying "ALL cops are good?"

[sibelian]

83. I think the point is more that

Cops are able to act on generous motivs as well as sinister ones.

Like the OP I've known many cops - including the total jerks.

[bahrbearian]

106. Lots of Media in Boston at that time. They took advantage of the Free PR

[Bonobo]

3. IMO, this is just a massive misunderstanding of the issue.

No one thinks they are not people individually.

But the role being played by, and the collective impact of, the police; and their relationship to the citizens of the people of the US is a different issue.

In Japan, people feel comforted when a policeman is around. In the US, many feel threatened even law-abiding citizens.

THAT is enough reason to question the relationship, the CONTRACT. that exists between the people and the police. It is not good enough. They are not doing good enough. The complaints are not meaningless. They are meaningful. Hear them and do not play them off.

[MannyGoldstein]

8. Maybe I live in Japan?

I absolutely get what you're saying, but I think that it some parts of America, we also feel comforted or otherwise fine when a local cop is nearby. *I* do, living on the Boston border.

This sounds like a key issue - if we can't feel good around local LEOs, then something bad has happened.

[Bonobo]

16. Yes, I think there is a contract implied.

They have power, guns, weapons AND they are charged with the task of serving and protecting in return.

The relationship with the public must be first and foremost. It cannot play second fiddle. They must serve, protect and make us FEEL served and protected. That relates DIRECTLY to the public mood and feeling of liberty, security. It is a NATIONAL SECURITY issue.

[MannyGoldstein]

19. I put up a poll.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022924947

Curious to see the results.

I guess I'm fortunate to live where I do.

[Bonobo]

23. I think there are subcultures within the police

that DO vary tremendously.

The end of community policing was probably a sea change in a bad direction. Walking, or even biking, in an area gives a very different us/them dynamic.

When protected and shielded inside a car, everyone looks like a perp or asshole through the windshield.

[Dragonfli]

37. In poor areas, at least where I grew up, they hate the poor and call us "scumbags"

Really, that was how they referred to us, they always talked to us like we were guilty of something and just hiding it.

Had my ass kicked a few times as a teanager, not for doing anything, just hanging out near where they thought something happened. I am glad people here like and trust the ones they know, but try being visibly poor, black, or hispanic on the lower west side or east side of Buffalo and you learn not to call them for anything, if you call because someone broke in, the first thing they do is search your house and look for a reason to bust you.

They are really good at beatings, I'll keep my distance thank you.
I had severely fucked up wrists and shoulders and shoved face first from a full stand into the concrete received three broken ribs from kicking then got charged with assaulting an officer for the crime of saying I wasn't lying about having drugs on me when I was 17 (they searched after the group beating and found nothing. full strip search downtown) so I guess I just never saw the humanity and good guy nature of those thugs, my fault I'm sure.

Now that I have a great deal of grey in my hair they leave me be, but they still sneer.

[Bonobo]

39. Yes, that was it. Scumbags.

That was the word I was searching and it is indeed the very word that my karate sensei, a longtime policeman TOLD us that they call all non-cops.

[Dragonfli]

42. I guess it's not just the Buffalo Cops that hate us for breathing and use that term of endearment.

What city was that? I wonder how many Departments use that same word to describe those they protect by beating up?

[Bonobo]

44. Northampton, MA

One of the most liberal and safest places to live.

That is cop culture and NOT restricted to one place. But there were many NY transplants, so it COULD be an East Coast thing, I guess.

[Dragonfli]

45. The weird thing is Buffalo is a very liberal City, even if it is growing poorer each year

The people here are much better than the cops (we are known as the city of good neighbors and it's true, we help each other and are generally friendly and nice to each other).

The cops here hate everyone but the rich few and we mostly just fear them.

[Bonobo]

46. It is the attitude, not the facts on the ground.

If there were dangerous drug addicted offenders all over, they would be the scumbags. In their absence, the bar is lowered because they need to rationalize and come up with a reason for their existence even in a safe town.

Thus, every potential criminal (aka everyone) is a scumbag.

Oh, they make fun of people basically constantly as they drive through town too. That's the truth. Wouldn't most people? "Look at that pathetic scumbag?" "Look at that old fuck." etc, etc.

It comes down to professionalism. There is little of it in US in general. No offense meant, but in general compared to other places. Better than some, worse than others.

[LooseWilly]

76. Even if there are dangerous drug addicted offenders all over, "they" are at best apathetic about ...

us "Scumbags".

Lived and worked (driving a taxi) for plenty of years in Oakland, CA. I've chauffeured drug dealers, pimps, hookers and assorted hustlers all over the place, and never gotten treated as shitty by any of them as I have been by the police— especially while on the job.

On the street I was just a strange tattooed blue-hair... hassled only when there was some spare time. On the job, I was once pulled over just because taxi detail "didn't recognize me" (— as if those cops knew every cab driver by sight, bullshit).

I got lucky though, having never rated being handcuffed and having my head slammed on a squad car doorjamb while being shoved into the car (as I saw the cops doing to one poor young black dude as I drove by in some random crappy neighborhood, gratuitously). Neitherwise though, of course, did I ever have the cops respond to a call or ever render any assistance except as a theoretical threat I was once able to use to pressure a dealer into paying the cab fare of a run-out neighbor by conning him into believing that the police were liable to actually respond to a 911 call (& by spooking the buyers by loudly proclaiming the cops were on the way).

Ironically, when I got paid and held up my end by calling 911 to cancel my call for the police— I got 911's voicemail. By the time they called me back I'd nearly forgotten why I'd called in the first place.

The cops? At best they're a threat to use against the paranoid (though, dealers have every reason to believe they will get police attention... it's only everyone else that gets ignored, at best, by those fuckers). At worst, they're a hassle for everyone who isn't "plugged in" to whatever circles of local power exist... or a serious threat to the well being of anyone who's obviously not a part of that nepotistic network.

To be honest, I trust Mexican Police more than US Police. At least they'll treat me with some respect as a probable tourist.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

153. I grew up in Burlington and had two cops living on our street.

One was a fine example of what a policeman should be. The other was nasty to the core SOB. I later found out he abused not only his emaciated German Sheppard (poor thing...I really felt bad for that person), but he also was pretty good at taking it out on his kids.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

98. Chicago cops refer to poor black people as "mules".

Older black men are "silver-backs".

I have a friend from high school who became a Chicago cop.

Racism and corruption are ingrained in the Chicago police system.

Obviously I no longer associate with this person. The 2008 election put him (and me) over the edge.

[gopiscrap]

152. Exactly every fucking cop I have ever encountered

has been a fucking arrogant scumbag. Power hungry and on steroids. And fucking tv doesn't help by glorifying the cops disrespect for suspects they arrest.

[MannyGoldstein]

21. I don't think that's a real photo

But I get your point.

Vote.

[Bonobo]

25. In all honesty...

He PROBABLY got some very positive high fives.

[Dash87]

51. "New World Police?" lol

Has Ron Paul being using Photoshop?

[zeemike]

31. Something bad has happened.

The militarization of the police.

And when that happens it turns out badly for freedom every time....just look at Germany in the 30s...or any number of other tyrannical governments in the past.
And frankly we are not that far from them now.

[peace13]

50. +1000

[villager]

54. +1

That's right. It's what the relationship of "the police" is, en toto, to the citizenry, and what is the owners of society are expecting those police to do, or be, viz. keeping those citizens the hell away from the owners.

[Kablooie]

72. A friend of mine was burglarized while living in Japan.

The cops caught the burglar.
They brought him to the door where he returned the stolen money and then they made him bow down on the floor and apologize.
My friend said it was very embarrassing.
Before the police left they gave him a box of chocolate for his trouble.

That's why people feel comforted by the police in Japan.

[Bonobo]

73. That's a really funny story!

It sounds weird even to me, but I know it's true.

It just makes me laugh.

A different world.

[Kablooie]

74. It was back around 1985.

He lived right below me.
There were 4 of us American families living in the apartment building.

One more weird thing was the burglar had kept records of how much he stole and from who.
The police used the list to take him around to all the victims.

[Bonobo]

78. Japanese attention to detail is impressive.

Even among petty thieves! LOL.

[SwissTony]

77. I was in Jordan and was amazed at the attitude of the police

and the attitude of the people towards them. Very positive on both sides.

A (Tourist-)policeman even offered us some water when we were at Petra. Just trying to help the tourists.

I come from Australia and live in Holland. Both countries have pretty good relationships with the cops. My indigenous friends in Oz have a few horror stories to tell, so there are a few a'holes as well.

[sibelian]

84. I think the OP is more of a counterpoint to the "all cops are pigs" thing...

I agree with you - there are some seriously problematic policeman - but broad -specturm anti-police sentiment doesn't actually end up doing anything about them. It just encourages the whole structure to clam up.

If the good cops had better tools to help their workplace get rid of the bad ones...

[gopiscrap]

151. Excellent

[Fumesucker]

4. People with a badge, a gun and often virtually no oversight on what they do with those things n/t

[xtraxritical]

58. The blue wall of silence, go along to get along. The good cops are scared and keep quiet.

[tabasco]

6. The Waffen SS was people, too.

What's your point?

[AnotherMcIntosh]

7. You say, "Some of them care enough to bring milk to babies". One did. ONE did.

And if you look at the photo, even he looks angry while doing so.

[MannyGoldstein]

9. He *volunteered* to do it.

I don't think he had a problem with it, at all.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

10. Only ONE volunteer? The OP seems to think that "some" (meaning more than one) do this.

[Logical]

24. He was getting paid as part of his job. Not volunteer work. n-t

[MannyGoldstein]

28. It wasn't a requirement of his job, AFAIK

I'm sure he could have been doing lots of other things.

[bhikkhu]

11. I've known a lot of cops, and I agree

they are definitely people. Not perfect, not right 100% of the time, but overall good people. Most of the ones I knew went in because they wanted to protect people and make things right, about the same reason most people got into the military.

[arely staircase]

12. agreed, they are generally no better or no worse than anyone else

nt

[Logical]

27. Which is the biggest problem. They have a lot of power to be average. n-t

[arely staircase]

35. no argument here

nt

[Bonobo]

40. Until they get the badge and gun perhaps.

I think you are either very, very naive or very, very disingenuous.

[arely staircase]

47. i will accept always the possiblity that I am being naive - about anything

you will just have to take me at my word (or not) that I am sincere.

selah,
as

[Bonobo]

48. OK, I absolutely take your word for that. nt

[niyad]

14. they are people who are not policing the ones who are giving all of them a bad name, for one

thing. read norm stamper's book, "breaking rank", about what has happened with those who are supposed to "serve and protect". a real eye-opener.

[rustydog]

17. Good post...you can replace cops with: Waiter/waitress-RN, Doctor, salesman

housekeeper...there are asshats in every single profession, pedophile priests anyone?

To say all cops are bad, or corrupt is a very broad brushstroke. I always wanted to be a cop. Two cousins and a nephew are police officers.

I've worked with law enforcement since 1976. the vast majority are honorable, hard-working Joes. They are my heroes.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

30. "you can replace cops with: Waiter/waitress-RN, Doctor, salesman"? In such occupations, they will

all suppress freedom of speech and peaceful protestors with unnecessary and excessive violence, or silently assent to their fellow employees who are doing so?

In such occupations, they will all needlessly electrocute people, and sometimes electrocute them multiple times as punishment, or silently assent to their fellow employees who are doing so?

In such occupations, they will all needlessly shoot people, including innocent people, or silently assent to their fellow employees who are doing so?

In such occupations, they will all plant evidence to obtain convictions, or silently assent to their fellow employees who are doing so?

The LEOs who cover up for their fellow criminals in Blue are just as guilty. The one who remain silent, and who effectively approve of the criminality, are just as guilty. Waiter, waitresses, RNs, doctors, salesmen, and housekeepers don't do that.

[backscatter712]

32. Yeah, but the waitress won't shoot you if you spill your coffee at her restaurant. n/t

[pipi_k]

109. Spill coffee? Maybe

not.

But complain about the service?

Yeah. Some of them will.

MANNING, S.C. —
A waitress at a South Carolina Waffle House has been arrested and accused of shooting a customer who complained about the service.

The Clarendon County Sheriff's Office says 29-year-old Yakeisha Ward of Manning is charged with assault and battery within intent to kill.

http://www.wsbtv.com/news/news/police-sc-waffle-house-waitress-shoots-customer-af/nD9fd/

[Heidi]

80. As a favor to DU, would you poll your law enforcement friends

as to why they don't just drum out the officers who give all law enforcement a bad name? With the good cops far outweighing the "bad cops," I would think that your heroes would make easy work sweeping out those who abuse the powers entrusted to them.

[sibelian]

86. That's what I want, too... but...

I think the thing is workplaces in general just don't work like that.

Right now I'm sitting next to a PA that has no clue what she's paying at from one minute to the next. I could go and rat on her...

(shrug)

If you spend every minute of your working life with a jerk, you knid of just end up accommodating them, I think it's just human nautre. For most people It requires a colossal amount of willpower and focus to get over your own version to "making waves". Cops will be no exception to this...

You're right, though. It is what should happen.

Given the way humans behave towards each other in the workplace, though, I'm finding it really difficult to imagine how you could implement any kind of toolkit or "ratting" system that wouldn't severly disrupt the ordinarily non-sinister interpersonal relations between individual officers. Imagine facing armed druggies one day, losing your temper because one of them got his kid to sell heroin to another kid to make a quick buck and then getting ratted out for going over the line by your buddy. You simply would not WANT to imagine it, and I'm willing to bet the mere presence of any kind of officially sanctioned ratting system would screw with your performance. You'd be so tempted to fuck up in other ways, probably in the form of NOT going after the crooks as enthusiastically as you could. I'm also willing to bet that departmental heads are easily smart enough to see for themselves that this would inescapably be the case.

Principle meets the fog of humanity... again...



There does need to be a solution. People are getting killed by fucked up policemen... The priority should be the safety of the general public, and I think in most cases that prioritisation is honoured.

In a sense it's kind of easy for us to focus on the incidents where the contract has fallen over and look for systemic flaws.

I think one of the reasons cops are getting so out of hand is largely related to the fact that human beings in general are getting out of hand, losing sight of what's important, and we can only select from the applicants we're given...

Rambling...

[damnedifIknow]

18. People with guns and tazers

who have authority over you. Just people? No, they need to to weed out the corrupt and mentally ill among them and make damn sure they never work in law enforcement again. No more paid time off it's time for meaningful punishment.

[Logical]

22. Cops, who have the power to shoot and arrest people need to be held to a much higher standard. I....

don't want to treat them like any other job. They should be better. not assholes.

[backscatter712]

33. A-fucking-men! These people literally have the power of life and death.

I want them held to extremely high standards.

Every time they fuck up, I want to see the ones responsible fired, jailed and shot. But that's not what happens.

[Logical]

36. So true. Normal people get fired. Cops do not. n-t

[Niceguy1]

136. mainly due to government unions

I know that for a fact is I am a government union worker. Unfortunately civil service/union rules make it really hard to get rid of bad apples.

[sibelian]

87. Then there needs to be a mechanism to hold them to it

That doesn't also damage the actual work of policing.

[tabasco]

97. In my parts, they'll take any dumbass off the streets to be a sheriff's deputy

They just have to sign a loyalty oath to the sheriff.

The people - "Fuck 'em, they're a bunch of criminals."

One of these deputies is facing over 40 felony charges for rape, etc.

[Robb]

29. All cops are people. Some people are assholes.

I've known nice people who were crappy cops, and assholes who were good, fair cops.

But assholes who are also bad cops leave so big of a wake it's almost impossible to notice any effect the good ones next to them have. It's just an awful, awful place for bad actors to find themselves; everyone suffers for it.

[backscatter712]

34. 99% of police officers give the good ones a bad name. n/t

[wundermaus]

38. bottom line...

Cops are animals... just like us.
Or better yet, they are carbon based life forms, just like us.
Was that your point?
Or are you trying to make excuses for abuse of unchecked power and privilege?
Hell, Jack the Ripper was a person?
Is that your point?
Poor use of logic. Sorry.

[thesquanderer]

41. Cops can be good or idiots, like everyone else. The problem is...

...that unlike other professions, the idiot ones in this case are armed and otherwise capable of doing an inordinate amount of damage.

[LadyHawkAZ]

56. ^this n/t

[Shankapotomus]

43. garbage in, garbage out

You get what you put in. If you fill the ranks with nothing but hired thugs, thuggery is what you'll get. While I wouldn't say a four year degree is a guarantee of a good cop, I think a four year degree should be required of all police officers. However, I'm sure this has been discussed before and many reasons presented as to why this would not work.

[Dash87]

49. My local police are corrupt doofs that constantly break their own laws.

And no, I haven't had any run-ins with them. They've made the news more than a couple of times for being idiots.

I wouldn't trust them with a spatula cooking my hamburger let alone a gun.

[kag]

69. I think you must be my next door neighbor.

I actually had an "experience" with a cop that has colored my view, but I've also read local news reports of many others. In my own case, I was given a speeding ticket. I wouldn't have thought twice about it, except that I knew for a fact that I wasn't speeding. When I showed up at court to fight it, and was shown the ticket, the cop had written down that I had said something that implied that I had admitted guilt. I was furious, but it was my word against his and his partner's. Who's a judge gonna believe? I actually fought the ticket in court and won, but I had to spend a lot more money fighting it than I would have paying the ticket. My husband, who supported me through the whole ordeal, said it was a matter of my mental health, and it truly was. To this day I don't trust this city's cops any further than I can throw them.

Our county sheriffs are great. State troopers--I've had great experiences. Cops in surrounding smaller towns, I've been helped by several. But in this particular city, I steer WAAAAAYYYYY clear.

I think there are some departments that just generate a culture of "Anyone who isn't a cop is a criminal."

[damnedifIknow]

52. I agree with the FBI

" ethical misconduct cannot be tolerated.

To ensure the ethical behavior of their officers, agencies must possess three basic tenets. First, they must have a policy in existence that spells out their ethical mission and sets standards that officers must live up to. Second, strong and ethical leadership must exist and be in place. These executives set the tone for the department and lead by example, never choosing the easy route in lieu of the ethical one. Third, agencies must ensure that they hire ethical people and appropriately deal with those onboard who are not. In short, an ethical police organization "will require the scrupulous adherence to existing policies and standards, the ability to detect an individual or collective pattern of performance which falls short of that expectation, and the courage to deal with those who are responsible for those failures."

http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/law-enforcement-bulletin/may_2011/law_enforcement_professionalism

[Spitfire of ATJ]

53. I miss this show...

It got people with intelligence and human decency to consider becoming a cop for a living.

[Egalitarian Thug]

57. Yes, they are people. People that cover for the crimes committed by other people that wear

a badge. I don't understand the desire so many seem to have to excuse institutional, systemic corruption.

Accessory after the fact is, I believe, the legal term.

[rl6214]

60. As in every demographic there are good ones and bad ones.

[Iggo]

61. First and foremost they are cops.

Ignore that at your own peril.

[99th_Monkey]

62. The Gestapo were "just people" too. If it oinks like a pig,

is fat, and has a curly tail, then it's probably a pig.

[Savannahmann]

63. Agree, they are people.

But even the "nicest folks you'd ever want to meet" are part of the problem. The problem is the defense of the "a-holes who only wanted a badge to make them feel 'big'" and the silence that core of defense entails.

Those same people decide, often daily, to ignore, and remain silent about excessive violence used by their fellow officers. Those same people stay quiet while lies are told under oath because Cops don't rat out other cops. To those of us in the civilian world, Frank Serpico is a hero who stood up for what is right. For cops, Serpico was a traitor who betrayed the faith.

While corruption may not be as egregious as it was in the time of Serpico, it is still present today. It is present because those nice cops you mention, keep their mouths shut when the see, or hear, something about a brother officer. They stay silent, and leave us, the public, as the victims of the bad officers. Edmond Burke said that all evil needs is for good men to do nothing, he might as well have been talking about the Police. While there are certainly officers who would never personally choke a child out, as was the case just this week in Miami. Or would not be so trigger happy as to shoot a Grandfather without first giving the potential suspect time to comply. They participate in the evil, by not speaking up against it. They enable those bad officers, until the entire force is not only suspect, but as bad if not worse than the criminals they supposedly protect us from.

Even when a bad cop is caught, with overwhelming evidence. The other cops in that department will often talk about what a great guy he was, and isn't it a shame his family has to suffer this for one mistake? They know good and well that the bad cop made plenty of other mistakes, and those good nice guys you mention revel in the double standard that makes many of us resent them.

Do those nice guys you mention wear their seat-belts? I bet they don't, because I never see a cop wearing one. Yet, if I don't wear mine, I am subjected to a lecture from the officer about the danger I am putting myself in, and a ticket which results in a hefty fine for so endangering myself. Hypocrite leaves a bad taste in everyones mouth, but many cheerleaders will tell us the hard job the cops have, making life and death decisions in split seconds.

The problem is that they make the wrong decision, and the innocent dies. Oh we're told how awful the police officer feels about it. But that never works the other way. If I hear a sound that I suspect is an intruder, and upon seeing someone, take a shot because I believe my life is in danger. God help me, because feeling awful about it won't cut it with those same police.

If a baddie kills a police dog, that is murder of a police officer by law in most states. Yet, when a cop kills a police dog by leaving him in the car to die of heat exhaustion, well the officer feels bad about that, so all is forgiven. If I did that to my dog, I would be charged with animal cruelty.

The Police officer may be the nicest guy you'd ever want to meet as an individual. But he is part of an oppressive system which protects liars, abusers, thugs, and those aforementioned a-holes who victimize us, the people.

[Cronus Protagonist]

64. THey are people, yes, only people. People should not act like angry petulant Gods.

You're right. And the God-like thinking is the problem, not the fact that they're people. They need to be taken down a peg or two, given a chill pill, smoke a joint for lunch and let other people be people.

[MsPithy]

65. Except, these "people" universally cover for the crimes

committed by their fellows, and get away with it. In no other profession is that acceptable, except for catholic priests.

[Savannahmann]

66. +1

[TekGryphon]

67. The day I see cops start arresting their own is the day I'll stop broad brushing them

If they all choose to stand together and protect the very worst among their ranks from justice, then I will judge all of them for it.

[Laelth]

101. Well said. n/t

-Laelth

[mahina]

70. Problem is the disconnect between what people think they are for and what they are really for.

The difference between what people who don't have much reason to interact with police think they can do, and what they can actually do...here at least, they exist to file insurance reports.

I know they put their lives on the line, and I respect and appreciate that very much.

I also have had the misfortune to come into working contact with at least one crackhead cop, another who asked me what I did to make a domestic abuser mad, (he almost killed me that night btw), and several really good cops too.

At some point in the fairly recent past, the department decided to narrow the scope of what they were willing to do. Forget about catching bad guys- just fill out the report and move on.

I don't know how it is on the continent, but here, if we want a bad guy caught, we have to figure out who did it, we have to tell them who did it, where they live, where they work, and then they MAY pick them up. Unreal. I am not exaggerating by the way.

What we really need are community conversations where the community determines their priorities, and assigns the mayor to execute them.

[Heidi]

71. jassimov, I'm _so_ glad you're here! Would you ask your many law enforcement friends

why they as a group don't just drum out those cops who abuse their power ("beating up defenseless victims," etc.? It's obvious, with good LE officers far outweighing the bad ones, that this could be done.

I'll look forward to your LE friends' responses! Thanks in advance!

[RedCappedBandit]

75. Yeah, people with power over other people

duh

[avebury]

81. Yes, you will find the good, the bad, and the

ugly with any police force just like you will any other group in society. However, if the good cops don't stand up against the bad cops then they will be painted with the same brush as the bad cops. They become guilty by association. More and more people are becoming scared of and do not trust police officers because there are way to many stories of cops that are shooting family pets and/or family members or just flat out being bullies and abusing their authority.

We live in a society where more laws are being passed trying to make it illegal to video police officers in action. Videos posted on the internet sometimes become the only means to document illegal acts committed by the vary people who are tasked to protect society. Too many police forces coverup police misdeeds to the point where the assumption is made that justice will not be served and bad cops will not be prosecuted. The Pope and the Vatican for decades have covered up priests who are child molesters just as police departments far to often cover up crime by police officer(s). The concept is the same.

Until Police Administration, state/city officials, and fellow cops begin to treat bad cops like the criminals that they are, then the good cops have no right to complain about they way they are viewed by society because they in fact are not protecting the people they were hired to serve.

Edit to add: That is just the plain hard facts of life.

[Nay]

99. Gotta agree here. ANY police dept. that supports a law that makes it illegal for citizens

to videotape police is, in my mind, a corrupt organization by definition. It knows it has plenty to hide and is actively trying to hide it. That's a BIG red flag.

[sibelian]

82. Certainly deserves to be re-iterated.

I've also had a lot of dealings with these folk. The majority were totally straighforward people who were doing their job.

I think I might post a leetle thread about this, too...

[justiceischeap]

85. I think the problem with modern law enforcement is that it's being militarized

and that brings a special kind of attitude to the job. It seems more and more police departments aren't about protect and serve, they're about end the situation as quickly as possible. That isn't to say all cops are like that but it seems it's becoming rarer that they aren't.

That said, law enforcement as an institution has been historically corrupt from its inception and it will always draw those that aren't really fit for community policing. I agree that cops are people too but you have to consider what kinda people that job draws these days.

[Heidi]

89. "...one criminologist found a 1,500 percent increase in the use of SWAT...teams

in the United States in roughly the last two decades."

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/04/sunday-review/have-american-police-become-militarized.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

[justiceischeap]

90. Thanks for providing data for my comment, appreciate the leg work. nt

[Heidi]

92. Good morning, justiceischeap!

A friend and I were recently discussing when we first noticed the outward signs of militarization of local police. It was in the late 1980s/early 90s that we noticed the uniforms of our local police officers and sheriff's deputies becoming darker in color (and more menacing in appearance).

Here's some more data* for you.

https://www.rutherford.org/files_images/general/Rise-of-the-American-Police-State-2010.pdf

*The Rutherford Institute is a civil liberties organization that provides free legal services to people whose constitutional and human rights have been threatened or violated.

The Rutherford Institute has emerged as one of the nation's leading advocates of civil liberties and human rights, litigating in the courts and educating the public on a wide spectrum of issues affecting individual freedom in the United States and around the world.

[justiceischeap]

93. It makes me wonder if the militarization is tied to ex-military

coming home from the war but if you noticed it starting in the late 80s, that wouldn't make much sense. Granted, if I recall my history correctly, we'd been through the Gulf War by then but the one thing I agreed with Poppy Bush about was how quickly we got in and out of there.

I find the rhetoric funny after 9/11...you know, how we weren't going to let the terrorists win, etc. They must be laughing their asses off looking at what this country is becoming. Of course, maybe this was the goal of Reagan's repubs all along. Or maybe I need more coffee this morning for my disjointed thoughts.

Good morning back!

[Heidi]

114. There are plenty of ex-military folks getting out all the time,

and it isn't just confined to war time. I suspect, but cannot confirm empirically, that there are links between the authoritarianism of the military and law enforcement systems in the US. I've lived in Switzerland since the late 1990s, and LE here is an entirely different thing, but I do not for a minute believe that my recollections are colored by having lived abroad for nearly 15 years.

Wishing you a good weekend, justiceischeap, and wishing our US law enforcement system were more about "serve and protect" than "monitor and enforce."

[steve2470]

88. I used to have a 100% positive attitude towards the cops until about 6 months ago

I've gotten speeding tickets and without fail, I've been treated with respect and professionalism. Yes, I'm a Caucasian male, which helps with being treated well.

The incident I went through with the local cops made me understand WHY some do not like the police. We are all supposedly innocent until proven guilty, but in this incident I was made, IMHO, to feel guilty until proven innocent. I won't elaborate on the incident, except to say I was truly innocent and was deemed a person of interest solely because of the color of my vehicle in the parking lot.

They are people, both good and not so good. Somehow the good ones, and we as a society, need to weed out the ones on a power trip or who abuse their authority. It really does give the police as a whole a bad name.

[B Calm]

91. I've learned one thing about ALL COPS,

each and everyone of them are on an ego trip. Say something to build up their ego even more and it's a sure fire way of getting a warning ticket instead of a real ticket.

[lame54]

94. So are corporations

[MrScorpio]

95. Ninety percent of cops make the other ten percent look bad.

Yay, cops!

They're the best.

[yellowwoodII]

96. I don't even like the term "cops."

Usually, the word "cops" is used in a critical context.
It's a hard job. It must take a lot of patience.
Sure, like in every profession, there are some bad examples.
And, if I'm speeding, I might be irritated to get a ticket, but when some hotshot is speeding through my neighborhood, endangering my family, I want him stopped.
And, if I need protection, I would be very glad to see a policeman.

[damnedifIknow]

105. Many "Hard" and more dangerous jobs out there

10 of the Most Dangerous Jobs in the U.S.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/10-of-the-most-dangerous-jobs-in-the-u-s--191643548.html

A police officer failed to make the list.

[RedRocco]

150. I have worked 6 of the jobs on that list.....

[sorefeet]

100. One bad apple does spoil the bag

if it is not removed quickly, the rot will spread until all the apples are bad. The bad apples in the police department are protected, not removed, allowing the corruption to spread. The people who do not remove the bad apples are complicate in the rot and their own demise of any kind of respect.

[Orsino]

102. They're not just following orders.

However, they are generally trying to follow both orders and the law, which often conflict. Meanwhile, they are also trying not to die, and can be forgiven for a certain amount of demanding our respect and compliance. It's always a juggling act, and one that requires a cop to be able to improvise in terrible situations that may go down quickly. They do these things for pitiful salaries unworthy of the heroics we like to expect from them.

And those are just the honest ones.

We don't pay them enough to ensure we hire honest cops, and certainly not enough to keep them honest. A cop who's dishonest, or lazy, or PTSDed out of his/her empathy, is empowered to do terrible things.

I don't want to deny the experiences of DUers who have faced terrible abuse at the hands of multiple cops--but it should always be remembered that most of law enforcement is mostly trying to do what they believe is right. Cut the majority a little slack, and if you want better policing, lobby your governments to spend wisely and make them better.

[Savannahmann]

104. Nuts

How much does it cost to tell the truth? When a "good" officer sees a fellow cop going too far, does he say anything? No. That can't be chalked up to anything other than a code of silence which is all the environment that the "bad" ones need to continue victimizing the populace.

Second, the system itself. Even when presented with overwhelming evidence of police abuses, 99 times out of 100, the officer will be kept on the force, by the very system that wraps itself in the flag of protecting us, the citizens.

The police are their own worst problem, the fact that nobody watches the watchers is how the culture of abuse flourished. The culture of silence, when finally a bad cop is identified, and finally reluctantly punished, usually because of outraged howls from the populace, nobody who worked with him is in any way tarnished. Nobody who saw him perform other equally egregious acts and remained silent is punished in any way, shape, or form.

The idea of police may be good, and necessary for society to function. The reality is another story entirely. From blatant hypocrisy and double standards, to the abuse of and even murder of citizens. There is not a single police force anywhere in this nation that is not corrupt to some extent. As the good officers are if nothing else, silent about these abuses, then they can't claim to be blameless.

The argument that we need to pay more for those who are abusing us, is asinine. The idea that if we did pay more, the honest ones would come forward more frequently is also asinine. It cost nothing to tell the truth, and that is the problem, the Police, even the good ones, regularly tell lies to protect one another. Look at all those who have been harassed, arrested, and even sued because they dared to video the police in public, to show the world the daily abuses that the citizens endure. Honesty cost nothing, and the lack of honesty in the police means that they are deserving of no respect, and should not be forgiven as long as they maintain that code of silence.

[Orsino]

107. It can cost a *lot* to tell the truth.

And we don't pay them enough to expect every one of them to risk his/her job, even when the moral stakes are high. The cop who bucks the system still has a need to be able to work with and depend on the fellow officers s/he would be betraying. I may feel outrage, but no, I don't expect every cop to make the "right" (IMO) choice every time...and the first little compromise probably leads to more and bigger ones.

At its worst, such pressure does result in a code of silence, made worse by our repeated cheaping out on police budgets. Police forces aren't generally large enough to keep up with all the crime, much less to support a cop who isn't tightly integrated with his/her team. Cops work in war zones that can heat up at any moment.

We will have better and more honest policing as soon as we make up our minds to pay for it.

[Savannahmann]

108. The German Defense at Nuremberg

I was only following orders. The operators of the Concentration Camps claimed, rightly, that they could have been killed for refusing to do what was expected of them. We sentenced them to prison, and death, claiming that it is the moral responsibility of every man to do the right thing, period.

I didn't have a choice is the battle cry of the weak, those who would turn their heads and stick their heads in the sand. Who does history lionize? Not the meek who turn their faces and hide from the truth. Those people are labeled by history as cowards.

Again, how much do we have to pay to have honest police? If we double the salaries of police, and we continue to have have abuses and hypocrisy and lies from the police, do we need to double it again, and again? Honesty and integrity should not be something that we get from police if we pay them enough, it should be first among the attributes that the police have. Anything less is not only unacceptable, but despicable.

I mentioned before that Serpico was a hero to the citizens, and a traitor to the police. If a vast majority of the police officers would betray a fellow officer who told the truth, then that vast majority of officers are just as corrupt as the ones who had the truth told about them. They do not deserve respect, but our disdain, and we as citizens, when called to serve on the jury, should take any statement or claim made by the police and look at it through the light of the culture of lies, and the code of silence.

Again, I have no respect for the police, because they have not done anything that is deserving of respect. It is said that respect is earned, and all they have is a well earned reputation for abuses.

[Orsino]

113. You think no police officer has ever done anything worthy of respect?

That's ludicrous. I will not be further trolled today.

[Savannahmann]

117. Trolled?

First, I specifically mentioned Frank Serpico, and I might add called him a hero to the citizenry.

You are unable to argue the logic, and the rightness of my arguments.

[Orsino]

119. Are you walking this back?

"I have no respect for the police, because they have not done anything that is deserving of respect. It is said that respect is earned, and all they have is a well earned reputation for abuses" is unambiguous.

If you meant instead to acknowledge that there have been other decent cops since Serpico, and that perhaps there are still some today, that's a basis for discussion. Until then, you're being argumentative rather than making an argument, and your repeated Godwins aren't persuasive.

[Savannahmann]

122. Not at all.

As I have maintained in many posts in this thread, those so called good cops, who turn a blind eye to the abuses, excesses, and crimes of other cops are themselves guilty. They are not deserving of respect, and should receive none.

In another post, I put a scenario, where I see my neighbor strike his wife. If I fail to report this, I am in fact committing a crime. If a police officer sees a fellow officer strike someone, they don't report it. They back the other officer, and nobody is ever charged.

Another example I used was Rodney King. Where the ones charged after the Video came out was the five who were involved in the abuse. Yet there were other cops, who also wrote reports, and none of those reports matched the events we all saw on the video. None of those officers were charged, only the five they HAD to charge to placate the outraged public. That's the only time that the so called bad cops are charged, when overwhelming evidence coupled with public outrage requires the system to take notice and prosecute the bad cops. Then we're given the platitudes about the bad apples in any bunch etc.

Yet how many times has that bad apple done this sort of thing? We are expected to believe it was the one time they got caught, which is laughable to say the least. So those fellow officers knew that Bob was like that, and did nothing to protect us from him. Not until someone shot video showing Bob in all his glory.

Because they remain silent, and maintain that code of silence, they are NOT GOOD COPS. I am most certainly not walking that back. Any cop who maintains that silence is as guilty as the ones who committed the crime, accessory after, and before the fact would be the charge for we civilians. So no, I have NO RESPECT for the police. Because they have done nothing to earn my respect.

The arguments about the few bad apples are beyond reprehensible. Because those boys and girls wearing badges know who the bad apples are, and know what they're doing, they've seen it, heard about it, and done nothing to stop it. If I obstructed justice by remaining silent when I knew of a crime, I'd be charged, but nobody with a badge ever is. That is the hypocrisy, the double standard that makes many of us hold the police in such contempt.

[Orsino]

139. That's still coming across as rather confused.

Do you believe that there are still any good cops on duty?

[Savannahmann]

140. No, I don't.

The argument is that the good cops are the majority, some folks say that 99% of the cops are good, and it's the 1%, the bad apples that give them all a bad name. Those same people argue that the good cops are kept silent by the system, which would leave them without backup, or possibly accidentally shot by the bad ones in a situation. The good cops are ostracized, so nobody speaks up against the abuses of the bad 1%.

Yet, here is the flaw in the argument. If the good cops are the 99%, why are they all afraid of the 1%? Why aren't the bad cops more afraid of their peers than the good cops are? The obvious answer is that not even half of the cops can possibly be good. They are in such a minority that they claim they are afraid of the repercussions of their fellow officers if they dare break the code of silence. So by choosing to remain silent, by choosing to remain in the system that punishes those who tell the truth, they join the system, and are part of the problem, instead of the solution.

The good cops would speak out, the good cops would testify against those bad officers who abuse the citizens, and who plant evidence, or lie about an investigation. Instead, they write the reports to back up the bad cops, committing lies to paper, and later swearing that the lie is the truth. They have become the bad cops they claim to oppose, if only the system would allow them to.

Find a time in history where I was only following orders was an acceptable excuse. The National Guardsman including Lynndie England tried that defense, and it was rejected in the media, and in the courtroom.

The bad cops are the majority, and anyone who puts on a badge, and joins them on the force, is a bad guy too. The only good ones are the ones who have left the force because they could not, would not stomach the corruption, or those who like Frank Serpico, speak out and tell the citizens what is going on. So no, there are no good cops. I know your next argument, there are lots of small town departments with one or two officers who are good. Really? They never lied under oath about the probable cause rule to justify a search? They never lied to back up another officer who conducted such a search?

The argument that cops have to lie to do their jobs is one where the ends justify the means, and it has never been true. There are no cops who don't lie, and therefor there are no good cops.

[Orsino]

142. Thank you. That is very clear.

Simplistic and bigoted, too.

[zipplewrath]

143. Very clear

And much better thought out than your response.

The only thing I would have added was that in truth we are guilty as a society of one thing here. Creating a job so bad, that it is almost impossible to do "well". Part meter maid, part soldier, part social worker, part tax collector, and part crossing guard. In too many situations they enter not knowing which hat their going to have to wear. So one can understand that they quickly get to a point where they don't feel constrained by the expectations of the society that created this crazy job, but only by those who are also caught figuring out how to do this poorly defined job.

[Orsino]

145. That second paragraph is a good one.

We could make the job more possible to do well, if we hire enough cops to police themselves as we'll as us, and elect representatives who will regulate law enforcement and appoint judiciary who will police the police.

We can do better, and in doing so would force the police to do better.

[zipplewrath]

146. Citizen review boards

The first solution is citizen review boards. They generally do work fairly well, as long as they are manned with actual civilians and not politicians and retired cops (well not exclusively). The police, and to some extent certain portions of the population don't necessarily like the direction these boards will push their procedures. Generally they tend to try to restrain the police and suggest less confrontation and more backing off. That conflicts with alot of departments procedures, at least in the larger scope, which tend to be more focused on getting an maintaining control over situations.

[Zorra]

103. "They are only doing what they have been ordered to do, by the people that they trust."

That can be very dangerous, whenever subservience to authority overrides common ethics and morality.

[leftyladyfrommo]

111. I think it depends on what kind of cop they are.

Around Kansas City the officers for the smaller towns are pretty nice. They give out a lot of traffic tickets because that is a major source of income for these little towns.

Now, the KC officers that work the bad areas of town can be real bad asses. But they kind of have to be to deal with the awful stuff they deal with every day. It's very dangerous in some parts of this town.

I don't have a problem with police. I just stay the hell out of their way if I can. If I get stopped I just agree with everything they say. And I'm always polite.

[Savannahmann]

112. Look, let's cut to the chase here.

The argument is that there are good cops, trapped in a bad system. A corrupt system. They don't dare speak out, because in doing so they would be ostracized, and betrayed by the others, who are just as trapped in the system that supports bad cops.

The truth is that if those people, the majority of the cops, would betray an officer who told the truth about corruption or abuse, then they themselves are corrupt. By remaining in the system, those "nice guys" who are trapped, are willing participants in the corrupt and abusive system they claim they are powerless to change.

By refusing to tell the truth, that "nice good officer" is in fact, just as bad as the worst in the department. QED, there are no good cops.

[datasuspect]

115. they are PIGS and they are the enemy

unless they stand on the side of the people.

[datasuspect]

116. before i forget:

fuck da police

[Savannahmann]

118. Let's look at cases shall we?

If I see my neighbor smack his wife, and I say nothing, I am guilty of suppressing evidence of a crime. If my neighbor, after a few drinks, tells me that he is going to kill his wife, I could be forgiven if I think this is a boastful statement made while impaired. I would not be forgiven if I failed to report this to the Police when I hear the wife was murdered.

Remember, the first arrests after they got the Boston Bomber from the boat was his friends, who destroyed evidence that they knew the suspect, and failed to call in and identify the suspect for the Police. They didn't bomb anyone, but they suppressed and destroyed evidence, and will almost certainly be found guilty of that crime.

Yet, which Police Officers are charged with suppressing evidence by not reporting crimes committed by other cops? Which Police Officers are charged as accessories before, or after the fact? The answer, none. Rodney King, who was charged? The five who did the beatings. Were any of the others, who stood there and watched, and wrote their reports which were in complete agreement with the abusers charged in any way? Nope, the department reluctantly charged the five, after incontrovertible evidence in the form of the famous video tape was provided. Every cop there was guilty, and only those closest were charged.

There are no good cops who keep their silence and turn a blind eye to the abuses and crimes of their "brother officers". Since none ever come forward, there are no good cops.

[Cleita]

120. I think people forget they are working class just like

the firemen and postal workers are and the first two are also doing a dangerous job. They are also civil servants and I believe we the taxpayers do have a right to demand that the police chief and other supervisors be made accountable for the actions of those under them. I believe guys like that sheriff Arpaio's actions need to be questioned. He actually isn't typical but makes the rest of them look bad.

[Rex]

121. Yes and people commit murders and other horrible crimes.

Some cops are monsters, some are just assholes and then some are the nicest people you will ever know. Just like PEOPLE.

[Savannahmann]

123. But those nice people we mention, enable the monsters with their silence.

So how nice can they be when they won't act to protect the citizens from the abuses of the badge wearing monsters?

[Rex]

124. Well it really warps the meaning, 'TO protect AND serve".

Seem like in a lot of cases, they fail at both. I agree, if police do not self-police then there is no way for us to tell if it a monster or a saint showing up at our door.

[One_Life_To_Give]

125. Depends where you are

What types of calls they routinely respond to probably has a huge affect. When number 1 call is people who have fallen and can't get up. You will likely find a kinder gentler police force. Being in the Volunteer Fire Dept I have known many officers in the town. As any sort of violent crime was highly unusual that probably shaped how the local officers viewed the world and their job.

Now at the University I attended they had their own police force who amongst their duties was to act as a buffer between the city cops and the students. So I think it depends very much on just where you are standing as to how the cops behave. Although it's also apparent that they are becoming more militarized and paranoid. Much of that I blame on couterterrorism, FEMA and DHS. Too much everything being a threat.

[Skittles]

126. CORRECT

and you could not pay me enough to do that job, to take those kind of risks and see what they see

[Rex]

130. And even if you follow the rule of law your entire career

some deputy dipshit in another state is ruining the professions rep by doing egregious shit like handcuffing, tazing then murdering a kid that was depressed and sitting on a couch.


Could not pay me a million dollars to be a cop. No thanks.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

127. I have known some as well, and all but a couple were decent, ordinary people.

But I think the job tends to attract authoritarian (and sometimes racist) types who enjoy exercising power over others, and it's up to police department management to screen out the ones who are likely to abuse their authority. In some departments, unfortunately, management also has the same outlook. And, since all human institutions are like fish - they rot from the head - if management encourages or even allows a culture that permits their officers to be abusive, the ones who lean in that direction anyhow will take full advantage. And even the "nice" ones can be corrupted, so that even if they don't misbehave themselves they won't try to stop the ones who do.

My own experiences with the local police have been only positive. But I'm a white, middle class person with no criminal record, not even a parking ticket. I am very well aware that this department has some officers who would not be quite so pleasant and helpful if I didn't fall within that demographic.

[noiretextatique]

128. they are people who WE pay to do a job

and they are people who can (and do) kill people and get away with it.

[L0oniX]

129. Let me know when they start arresting each other for breaking the law. n/t

[Mojo Electro]

131. I don't doubt that many cops are good people...

The problem is that the bad cops are never held accountable. There is no system in place to reliably weed out the bad ones. Cops are never held accountable for all the killings, beatings and abuse committed by officers. What good does it do to let them investigate themselves? They will always remain loyal to their own. Here in South Florida we've recently had several people killed at the hands of police officers, usually unarmed, and the results of the investigation are invariably "the officer followed proper procedure". If the officers are "following procedure" and unarmed citizens are being gunned down by half-wit cops, then something is seriously fucked up.

This is why people get frustrated and the broad brush comes out out. I'd be a liar if I said I couldn't relate to the sentiment. Or it's just that 95% of the cops are giving the rest a bad name?

What would a good solution be to better hold cops accountable? A civilian oversight board that has no dog in the race? Scaling back the immunity from prosecution somewhat? I'd be in favor of both.

I'm also of the opinion that the Taser only be used for self defense, or only in very extreme circumstances, not to shock some poor 350lb asthmatic man to death (in his own home) while on a fishing expedition for some small amount of cocaine they never found.

I understand there has to be some leeway with prosecutions for those times when things really do go terribly wrong, that's the nature of the beast. But if the cops had a real chance of facing criminal charges for gross abuses of power and negligence, they might think twice before they victimize people. Toss a few of them fuckers in jail and the rest of them will probably chill out some, I'm sure Kelley Thomas would agree if he hadn't been beaten to death by cops.

A nationwide campaign to aggressively fire/prosecute bad cops might help to restore some faith in, and respect for, the police.

[Savannahmann]

132. I'd agree with most of your sentiment.

I'd add one suggestion. Not just prosecutions for the abuses the so called "bad cops" do, but punish the silence. Those who have turned their heads, and ignored the abuses should be prosecuted for obstruction of justice. Think about it, if you and I were friends, neighbors or whatever. If I was a criminal, and you knew about it, and did not report me, you would be prosecuted too as an accessory, or at the minimum obstruction of justice. You withheld information on criminal activity.

This doesn't apply to the so called "good cops" who personally did not beat the poor bugger half to death, but they agreed when the "bad cop" reported that he had no choice in the matter.

Prosecute those who sit on the information, make it impossible for the code of silence that has always existed to continue, and we can, we will take back our police force. Then we could have a police force we could be respectful of.

[Mojo Electro]

134. Most definitely!

I agree 100 percent. That is obstruction of justice the clearest sense.

Hold them to the same standards as they hold the rest of us to, I don't think that's too much to ask.

The "blue wall of silence" is a terribly dangerous thing. Cops are often ostracized by their peers if they speak out. It's a huge problem.

[Savannahmann]

135. Thank you

I normally have no difficulty coalescing my thoughts into cognizant arguments. Today, I've had trouble pinning down my thoughts into a final argument so to speak. Then I read your line.

The "blue wall of silence" is a terribly dangerous thing. Cops are often ostracized by their peers if they speak out. It's a huge problem.

That has been what I've been saying, but suddenly I understood what I wanted to say. So thank you.

Why is it that the bad cops are the ones who are NOT OSTRACIZED? We are told that it is a few bad apples, and the good cops can't speak out, despite being in the vast majority, because they face problems from their peers, and the word you used was ostracized. The word always conjures up an image from school, of the Amish ostracizing one who had broken the rules. This punishment was less than banishment, and would continue until the elders felt the individual had been punished enough.

So why would the good cops risk being ostracized for obeying the laws, and living up to the oath that they took as police? Because they broke the rules, and broke the code of us versus them that the code of silence entails.

Therefore we can clearly show that the majority of "good cops" are in fact nothing of the sort. The majority must be bad, if the one good cop is the one being ostracized, or worse. Those so called bad apples are apparently the majority, because the bad cop does not fear ostracizing, he is supported by those who enable his abuses. Those brother officers who would punish, ostracize the good cop who took his oath seriously.

[Mojo Electro]

137. You're welcome

Happy to help with the discourse.

You said:

Those so called bad apples are apparently the majority, because the bad cop does not fear ostracizing, he is supported by those who enable his abuses.

Hello!! Nail on the head right there.

They act with impunity because they know that their asses will be covered by their fellow good ol' boys on the force.

I would bet there are a lot of times where a person who is a regular decent cop just doing his/her job watches a fellow officer engage in flagrant abuse and criminal activity and things to himself "This is wrong" and may be upset/angry over it, but "no way am I going to say something, I have a family and bills to pay, I just want to do my job".

It's sad really. I'm sure they could make life an absolute living hell for anyone with a conscience who dares speak out against them, so I can't even say I blame them for not wanting to speak out. They harass regular citizens who raise complaints about them too.

I'm sure a lot of cops who might have started out as "good guys" get more and more jaded, and become more and more violent and uncaring after spending years immersed in jackbooted thuggery.

I say the more cameras we can get on the police, recording police activity, the better. We need cameras and phones that upload video in real time to somewhere else, that way when the cops slam you on the ground and confiscate/smash your phone, the video is preserved somewhere. The cops who murdered Kelley Thomas would have gotten off scott-free had there not been a person recording the crime. Surveillance can go both ways, assholes.

[gollygee]

133. I know some very, very nice cops

but honestly most I know just like the idea of being able to carry a gun around and have power. I think the job attracts some people with some character flaws, in addition to the good people who take the job to serve and protect.

[dionysus]

138. i think it all depends on where, and what neighborhood you live.

in a quiet area where nothing happens, you won't see people being harassed.

the police who patrol the ghettos are more probably to get violent with people. policework attracts some people with an authoritarian streak in them, and some law and order types like Serpico. the larger the urban area, the bigger the problem

in the small town where I grew up, the most you'd see was a cop wrestling with a local drunk... I don't think they even had tasers or batons... but they'd sometimes have to wrestle a belligerent drunk to the ground, take him to the drunk tank, and release him the next morning.

[Initech]

141. My cousin is a former police officer and now works private security.

He said the guys who are on power trips are very few and very far in between, but they're definitely out there and make most departments look bad.

[zipplewrath]

144. Define power trip

Not alot of people can do what I do, and it frequently impresses other people. Is that a power trip?

It isn't just the jack asses that want to push people around that are on the power trip. It is the person that things that they are "extolling some tough love" that are on it too. Anyone that finds "using their judgement" is an important part of the job, is probably on a bit of a power trip. Alot of judges LIKE being "the decider".

I've found very few cops, including all of the ones I knew personally, that weren't cops who enjoyed the power. Some tempered it better than others. Some got out because they realized that the power came with real personal and professional risks and it just wasn't worth it.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

147. Agree - some are simply wonderful people while some are completely nuts

We seem to remember the nuts and not the cop who was right to pull us over because we were speeding and just gave us a warning.

When I was an attorney in a law office practicing insurance defense, one of the associate attorneys was a former policeman who had gone to law night school. He was very politically liberal for a cop and decried police abuse of minorities. But he was also a raving lunatic completely out of his mind. He would tell me stories about missing the police as a member of the LAPD, saying he never felt more excited to be alive when he was responding to a shooting or some other violent crime and he could turn on his siren and his gumball flasher. He was convinced he had powers of extrasensory perception. He said one day he woke up knowing that a certain bank would be held up and he spent a couple of hours near the bank in his car and, sure enough he caught the robbers when they tried to hold it up. He said it was only one of several incidents in which he'd used his esp powers to solve crimes.

Another cop was one I'd represented in his work comp case against the city of Los Angeles. He went nuts on the witness stand in the courtroom and came after the judge with a cane while shouting and screaming. He was in the middle of describing the physical and mental injuries he'd suffered after years on the force including being shot at several times, handling decomposing bodies, and being physically assaulted when responding to domestic violence situations. It was clear that it wasn't his fault and he was almost out of his mind and suffering from bad post-traumatic stress. Unfortunately, the city didn't want to pay for any therapy or rehabilitation.

[alarimer]

148. It's a profession that tends to attract authoritarians.

People who love being able to throw their weight around and boss people around.

There's is probably a lot of dehumanization that goes on in their training or their day-to-day work, which means they see everyone as the enemy, including some kid carrying a puppy.

[Lady Freedom Returns]

149. +1, K & R

People keep forgetting this.

But sadly, we as people, will forever put all eggs in the same basket. We will also happily, as the old saying goes, let one bad apple spoil the whole batch.