Question: Can an employer fire you for telling other coworkers how much you make?

[Massacure]

I have a job that I have been in for a little more than a year. When I was first hired I was told that salaries are extremely confidential, that you can even be fired for discussing it. I recently just got a pay raise, and my boss mentioned again that salaries are confidential.

I think there is some funny business going on. Can a company take action if people discuss how much they make?

[Dreamer Tatum]

1. You can generally get fired for whatever they say.

So I would avoid discussing salary with colleagues, which no good can come from, anyway.

[no_hypocrisy]

2. Unless you have a collective bargaining agreement or another employment

contract, you're an At Will employee.

And under the doctrine of At Will Employment, you can be lawfully discharged/fired/sacked for any reason or no reason at all, save for being fired in violation of civil rights or another publicly protected right.

[alphafemale]

3. "Right to Work" states.

They can fire you fir any reason they please. They don't even have to have a reason.

[Brickbat]

11. "Firing for any reason" is being an at-will employee.

"Right to work" =/= "at-will employee."

[quakerboy]

21. Go framing

"Right to work" is right up there with "clean air act" or "patriot act" or NCLB. Etc.

Technically you are right. Right to work actually refers to anti-union legislation. But they get conflated a lot, and coexist.

[LiberalFighter]

19. Right to Work does not have anything to do with working conditions.

[bowens43]

4. Unless you're in a union or have a contract

you can be fired for anything including no reason at all.

[sarcasmo]

10. +1

[jody]

5. Ditto above (a) employer can fire you for any reason and (b) employee can quit for any reason,

all that without a contract setting forth the terms and conditions of work.

[unblock]

6. in most states, it's more a matter of what CAN'T they fire you for

they CAN'T fire you for reasons of religion, race, color, gender, disability, national original, or genetic information.

even for that, there are exceptions, for instance, for companies with fewer than 15 employees. also if the job really, really can't be done, they can fire or refuse to hire you (e.g., if you've become wheel-chair bound, they can fire you from a job as a furniture mover.)

other than that, they can generally fire you for any reason. they don't even need a reason, in fact. the boss can fire you because he doesn't like your tie, because he was in a foul mood, or because he noticed you had a democratic bumber sticker on your car.

this is the republican idea of freedom: where the government doesn't interfere with the boss's ability to restrict your freedom.

[CC]

7. Unless you have a contract sayng different

yes you can. I know W.L.Gore used to have very strict rules on keeping your salary confidential even down to the janitors. Not sure of their reasoning but people rarely ever quit there, their turnover is low and it is hard to get a job with them because they rarely having entry level openings. When they do it is usually because someone was promoted or they have expanded.

[dmallind]

8. The "funny business" is most likely merit increases

Since this means people doing same or same level work get different raises based on performance (how well that is measured or assessed is another issue), it is only common sense for the workplace to not have you antagonize co-workers who may have received less, or risk demotivating yourself if others received more.

[Matariki]

20. The "funny business" is often wildly divergent pay rates for the same job

Often based on gender, H1B visa status, or salary negotiation skills.

[HubertHeaver]

9. They will take action. It may be for a trumped-up time infraction

or some other such silliness but they will take action.

The bosses' goal is to get you to work for as little as possible. If you find out how much he is willing to pay others who have lesser ability and or experience you may begin to feel like a real chump.

[NJCher]

12. I agree with post 8

and also would add that the practical outcome of this situation is that people become demoralized if they learn another co-worker is being paid more for what might be considered the same type of work. As dmmilind (sp) points out, this can be affected by any number of items such as longevity, etc.

The biggest problem, however, is it results in employees coming in to complain about and ask for the differential to be equalized. This results in a lot of wasted time on everyone's part.

The easiest and best policy is to just prohibit discussion of the matter.

Finally, I would add that for your own benefit, don't ask and don't tell. Someone will fail to keep their mouth shut and when they find out you didn't respect the policy, there will be some counter-action, none of which will be particularly pleasant for you.

Sometimes ignorance is bliss.


Cher

[Sanity Claws]

13. Let's be frank

They can fire you for whatever they damn well like. The question that follows is whether the fired employer has a lawsuit that he is likely to win and there is enough money at issue to make it worth pursuing.

There is an argument that divulging wage information is part of collective action and thus protected.

[jody]

14. "fire you for whatever they damn well like" & you can quit for whatever you damn well like. nt

[Sanity Claws]

15. How does this help the Original Poster?

Are you telling him to quit?

I'm just trying to figure out the point of your post.

[jody]

18. Without a contract, both employer & employee can terminate the work arrangement at will at any time.

I agree with all other posts in this thread that confirmed the first and added the other side.

[Sanity Claws]

23. There are exceptions to the at-will general rule

For example, an employer can not terminate on the basis of race, color, creed, national origin, gender, or age, whether or not there is a contract between the parties.

[jody]

25. Understood but a cautious employer may avoid those things that attract EEOC and their lawyers. Even

then federal lawyers with unlimited taxpayer dollars can make innocent employers settle out of court rather than keep paying defense lawyers.

[Sanity Claws]

26. "federal lawyers with unlimited taxpayer dollars can make.."

Where did you ever form that idea? I ask because it is not based on facts.

EEOC has very limited funds. Its budget is so limited that it doesn't even investigate most charges filed with them. Even when it investigates and finds cause that discrimination was involved, its budget is so tight that it won't even file suit on many of those charges. Instead, it issues a right to sue letter and the aggrieved employee has to find an attorney to bring suit on his behalf.

[jody]

27. EEOC has more than enough taxes to persecute any employer. Try running a business and exchange

experiences with your peers and then get back to me.

Obviously we have different opinions and I can live with that because my opinions are shaped by having been an employer and counting among my close friends many small business owners.

If you look carefully, you will find thousands of Democrats who are employers, a fact that seems to escape many who post on DU apparently believing that only employees and the unemployed make up the Democratic Party.

Have a great evening.

[Sanity Claws]

28. My experience is shaped from being an attorney

I helped discharged employees file EEOC charges. I know exactly what I'm talking about. I know exactly how hard it is to get the EEOC to investigate or file charges. I also have personal experience where I had to file suit on behalf of the employee because the EEOC did not have the budget to file suit.

Are you saying you were an employer against whom an employee filed a charge? If you are, then you know that the EEOC offers mediation services even before it begins any kind of investigation. It also offers conciliation services even after it finds cause for the employee. It has many procedures set up to conserve its limited financial resources.

I simply don't understand the last full paragraph. It is apparently an emotional response and, like others you wrote, not based on facts.

I wish you a great evening too.

[coalition_unwilling]

39. Are you channeling your inner Ronald Reagan? jeesh, talk

about a right-wing talking point. Next you'll be saying there really are people driving Cadillacs and getting welfare.

[Zalatix]

43. Well, there really are people driving Cadillacs and getting welfare. Actually, more like Bentleys.

Although they're not welfare moms. They're called banksters.

[coalition_unwilling]

46. Hah! Good one. - n/t

[Proud Liberal Dem]

45. Not to mention the seemingly forgotten notion of "free speech"

Of course, nowawdays that seems to mostly refer to a corporation's ability/inability to help buy candidates for public office.

[usrbs]

16. Of course employers don't want employees to discuss salaries

How will the employee find out he or she is being screwed without being able to compare their bonus or pay or rating to other employees?

I always try to find out where I stand in relation to my associates, and the more I know, the better I can negotiate, or in some cases, change jobs when it's clear I'm not being sufficiently valued.

So my advice is that if you can compare your pay, do so, but obviously you have to be discreet about it and not let management find out about your inquiries.

[HockeyMom]

17. I had a strange experience with this many years ago

I dated a man in the same office. We got engaged. OF COURSE, we knew how much each other made. We had to budget our finances for our future lives together based on how much we each made. The company did not like this. Hello? Excuse me? Actually, they did not like the idea of a husband and wife working in the same office, PERIOD.

I didn't want to put up with all the BS, quit, and got another (better) job.

Ironically, the job I got was doing the fixed budgets for the entire division of a corporation. I not only knew the salary of everyone from the President to the Janitor, but I knew who was getting a raise, and who wasn't. Absolutely, I couldn't talk about salaries. No Brainer.

[Zhade]

22. No, legally they can't. The US labor code protects your right to discuss salaries.

It's illegal for them to terminate you for doing so -- not that they wouldn't try. But there are well-established protections in place. Check out the DLSE for details.

[Rex]

24. Yes. Did you read your contract when you went to work for

said company?

[Lucky Luciano]

29. At my place of business compensation is top top secret and you absolutely will be fired

...for disclosing pay. It will create extreme jealousies and those who feel they are getting the shaft will explode.

I always thought that an interesting project for Anonymous would be to hack into the HR departments at all the investment banks and find the total compensation for all of the employees and puclicize this on the web. Mark my words: There will be riots on the trading floor when people figure out people they view as less intelligent might get paid much more. Absolute fucking riots. Computer smashing and all kinds of other stuff.

[Ron Obvious]

30. What's not "at-will" then in non-"at-will" states?

I used to work for a well-known software company here in Washington State that had this policy also and I know of at least one case where someone did get fired for it.

As far as I know, Washington is not an "at-will" state, but apparently you can nevertheless get fired for any reason whatsoever with some specifically listed exceptions such as race, religion, etc.

I'm sincerely confused now. How does this differ from "at-will" states then?

[xmas74]

31. Here's your answer:

Many businesses and corporations have gone so far as to establish rules forbidding employees from discussing their wages, on pain of disciplinary action.

It turns out that in most cases these regulations are actually against the law.

The National Labor Relations Board (NLRB) has ruled on many occasions that businesses and corporations cannot legally prevent employees from sharing their salaries or the salaries of their co-workers. In most cases, employers are not required to publicize the wages of their employees, but neither can they bar them from giving that information to each other or the media. When disgruntled employees bring these regulations to the attention of the NLRB, the employer is required to remove the language from their employee manuals. (This doesn’t apply to managers, supervisors and other employees not under the jurisdiction of the NLRB.)

http://nakedlaw.avvo.com/2010/10/can-you-be-fired-for-discussing-your-salary/

Of course, if you're an "at will" employee or in a "right to work" state no reason is needed to terminate your contract.

[Honeycombe8]

33. NLRB can't prevent employer from firing you just because they want to or for no good reason.

Isn't the thing about reasons in the NLRB about claiming unemployment compensation because the termination was not for good cause? It's not against the law for the employer to fire you for any reason that is not protected by statute (race, gender, etc.).

Is that not correct?

(assuming there's no union or other contract covering the terms of employment)

[xmas74]

34. If it' an at-will then yes,

you can be fired for almost any reason. What NLRB stated is that an employer cannot tell you that you will be fired for discussing salary at work and that they've ruled against employers for doing just that.

In other words, if you're fired for doing so you probably have a lawsuit.

[Honeycombe8]

32. Yes. Your employer can fire you for any reason that's not protected by statute (race, age, etc.).

Same as you can quit for any reason.

Assuming you don't have an agreement covering your employment.

[Honeycombe8]

35. It may not be a good idea for you to talk wages w co-workers, anyway...

I've worked at the same place a looooong time. Over the yrs some of us has figured out, sort of, who gets paid what, among a certain job title. That can be good, but I don't really like us knowing that, really. It adds a "who is more valuable" or "who is more powerful" in the office among the same job title. But wages and raises are given for all sorts of reasons over the years that have nothing to do with value or productivity. Could be you negotiated better when you first got there, or the economy was better for more years while one was there but not others, or one has more education or experience.

Watch out for co-workers who try to get info out of you, but they are scarce with coughing up info themselves. I was tricked into giving my salary many years ago (a different company than where I am now)...she asked, I said, I asked...oops, she got interrupted and never told me. Not that it would have been the truth, because once she knew mine (which was low), she probably would've lied to indicate she also had a low salary, or I would've maybe complained to HR. So it's probably best, I've decided, not to discuss wages and raises.

Still, having info can be a good thing. So, I don't know.

They wouldn't fire us for discussing wages, though. Most employees don't like to discuss that. Who wants to be sitting at the table at lunch, and when you all disclose what raise you got that year, you find out that you got the lowest raise? And if you got the biggest raise, the others will resent you.

[SoCalDem]

36. If you signed a confidentiality clause, or as an acceptance of the company

policy papers when you were hired...yes!

Companies that are not union, often hire people at very different wages, depending on their perceived "worth" to the company.

This is one benefit of working union. You know exactly how much everyone makes, and what you have to do to advance to the next pay level.

[WillowTree]

37. I've seen it happen more than once.

[Liquorice]

38. That's a very interesting question and you've gotten

some good answers. I think it should be illegal and it sounds like it might be, but they will probably find a way to get rid of you if you do start announcing how much you make to your coworkers. In the government, EVERYBODY knows what everybody else makes and therefore pay/bonuses are openly discussed among colleagues.

[quaker bill]

40. Where I work they can fire you for anything

or nothing at all. It is called being an "at will" employee.

[lapislzi]

41. I work for an extremely open-minded company

Policies are very liberal regarding work hours, dress code, etc. Our employer pays 100% of our health plan. Crazy, I know.

But the one thing they're iron-clad about is compensation. It is not discussed. It is a matter between you and the company president, who personally reviews every employee annually. I'm a department manager and I don't even know what my staff makes, nor do I want to.

An employee was recently fired--the first firing in a decade--for very vocally complaining about the amount of that person's annual bonus and raise. Numbers were actually spoken. It made every person in the company very uncomfortable to have these numbers spoken aloud. Whether your bonus was larger or smaller than this person's, the general feeling was that this was extremely inappropriate discussion for the workplace.

The only people who know my salary, other than in the most general of terms, are my employer, my spouse, and my accountant. It is nobody else's business.

I can understand that things might be very different in a large organization or union shop, where these things matter in a different way.

[haele]

42. short answer- yes

In non-unionshops or shops that have negotiated pay scales, Management doesn't want workers to try and "leverage" their pay raise off somone else's pay. They also don't want to deal with possible legal implications if, say, Jack, Jane, and Marcus all have the same time at the company, qualifications, and job positions and responsibilities, but don't have the same pay, or if one got a bonus and the others didn't. Better just to make it a company rule not to discuss pay.
The other possible issue, as always, is that if for some reason, they ever want to look for a reason get rid of you, silly little rules like this are the ones they use to justify letting you go.

Haele

[dionysus]

44. if it's in your contract or it's a "right to work" state