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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWhy American Kids Are Brats
Amidst all the talk this past week about Pamela Druckermans new book, Bringing Up Bébé: One American Mother Discovers the Wisdom of French Parenting, there was one phrase that immediately lodged itself in my mind. It was in a sidebar that ran with the Wall Street Journal adaptation of her book, Why French Parents Are Superior, and it said this: Children should say hello, goodbye, thank you and please. It helps them to learn that they arent the only ones with feelings and needs.
That statement points directly to what I see as one of the most meaningful differences between the French and (contemporary) American style of parenting. I dont happen to believe, as the Journal pushed Druckermans argument to say, that French parenting is necessarily superior, overall, to what we do in America. I dont think French children are, overall, better or happier people such generalizations are silly. But it is true that French kids can be a whole lot more pleasant to be around than our own. Theyre more polite. Theyre better socialized. They generally get with the program; they help out when called upon to do so, and they dont demand special treatment. And that comes directly from being taught, from the earliest age, that theyre not the only ones with feelings and needs.
I say all this based on many years of extended hanging out time with French families, both before and after my own girls who, like Druckermans children, were born in France came along. In fact, that experience and the contrast with the American way of parenting I discovered when I moved back to the States inspired my book Perfect Madness: Motherhood in the Age of Anxiety, the main argument of which Druckerman recapitulates at the very beginning of Bringing Up Bébé. (Fuller disclosure: she interviewed me for the book as well.)
Like Druckerman, Ive often noted wistfully how French children know how to handle themselves in restaurants. Ive envied how French children eat whats put in front of them, put themselves to bed when instructed to, and, generally, tend to help keep the wheels of family life moving pretty smoothly. But the difference that struck me the most deeply, when my family moved to Washington, D.C., from Paris and my older daughter began preschool, was how much more basically respectful French children were of other people. Indeed, how much emphasis French parents put on demanding they behave respectfully toward other people. And how that respect helped make life more enjoyable.
Read more: http://ideas.time.com/2012/02/10/why-american-kids-are-brats/?hpt=hp_t3#ixzz1m7JimGki
treestar
(82,383 posts)There might be such parents, but what justifies equaling their behavior to that of all Americans? And there are competitive parents in other countries, too.
TheWraith
(24,331 posts)Even though in people's haste to talk about how totally ruined the next generation is, spoiled, immoral, whatever, they tend to forget that people said all the exact same things about THEM.
rfranklin
(13,200 posts)Maryse Vaillant claims French men should stop being castigated for being serial womanisers and that keeping a mistress can actually improve their marriage.
In a controversial new book on the effects of infidelity on married life, Men, Love, Fidelity, Miss Vaillant says her aim is to "re-habilitate infidelity".
According to figures cited in the book, an estimated 39 per cent of French men cheat on their wives at some stage in their life.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/6908022/Husbands-affairs-are-good-for-marriage-claims-French-psychologist.html
Response to TheWraith (Reply #3)
Tesha This message was self-deleted by its author.
Kellerfeller
(397 posts)to another part of the next generation.
that is praising the next generation as much as it is bashing it.
roguevalley
(40,656 posts)let a kid stew and counted the time. "Can I go to the bathroom?" lasted over TEN MINUTES before he remembered please. It was instructive to all my kids. Please, thank you, etc. are the GOLDEN WORDS I taught them every year. It would blow your mind how many don't know to do that. GO, FRENCH PARENTS!
It really is important. Also, TRAIN YOUR DAMNED KIDS PROPER PHONE ETTIQUETTE and when to get up and let someone else sit and when to shut up and wait your turn to talk. All of this matters and will help your kid be welcomed anywhere.
Matariki
(18,775 posts)"Excuse me" to leave a room, sure. "Please" when asking for a *thing* (like a piece of cake or some glue), sure. But requiring someone say "please" in order to urinate is asserting a creepy control over their basic bodily functions.
dionysus
(26,467 posts)"mr\mrs so and so, may i please go to the bathroom"
jr high and high school weren't like that.
Matariki
(18,775 posts)high school as well. I understand that it would be disruptive to let kids just jump up and leave the room without saying anything, but when I think back on it, it seems kind of controlling and sometimes even sadistic to make kids beg to go relieve themselves.
I think perhaps something modeled after the way polite adults behave would be the best. Adults don't ask "may I please go to the bathroom", they say "excuse me, I need to go use the restroom" - and then get up and go.
dionysus
(26,467 posts)unless the teacher knew the kid was gonna go smoke in the bathroom or something...
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)See, this is an example of what the author of the article was talking about.
Kellerfeller
(397 posts)at all?
Matariki
(18,775 posts)just teaching useful ones that a child would carry over to adulthood. Would you ask permission to urinate? It's appropriate to politely ask if you can use someone's bathroom if you are a guest in their home, it's appropriate to excuse yourself from a meal or a meeting to use the bathroom. It's not appropriate to expect to hold your urine until someone allows you to relieve yourself.
Kellerfeller
(397 posts)If you are in a setting where you are not free to come and go as you want, then you ask permission.
For a recent example, I attended a classified conference where much of the building was at a higher classification that I was read into at the time. So I had to ask permission (and be escorted) to places like--the bathroom. And I always used please when I asked.
Matariki
(18,775 posts)plus would anyone use it as an opportunity to assert their power over you and make you wait? I'm assuming you expect to be 'allowed' to use the toilet when you need to.
Kellerfeller
(397 posts)But it was a non-issue as I used manners. I've never heard of anyone being chastised for being too polite. Teaching the kids to default to being overly polite can't hurt.
Same with using sir/ma'am.
roguevalley
(40,656 posts)Manners make you fit in. They show your quality and if there were more who used them then this world might be less a cesspool then a garden. Its my damned job.
proud2BlibKansan
(96,793 posts)"He's so polite when he talks to you. I wish I could get him to be that polite at home."
I felt sorry for the mom and just smiled. But I wanted to scream (impolitely) that it's not that hard, they rise to the level of your expectations rather quickly.
roguevalley
(40,656 posts)of their kids and be their parents. i got every jailbait hard headed boy in our school. I got one that had an IEP an inch thick and had been removed from his school the year before in handcuffs. I was warned. When he pitched his first boo boo in my room I asked him out in the hall and told him he had to be a gentleman, work hard and have manners. I asked him if he could do that and he said yes. Fifth grade, same height as me, 'jailbait' he said yes. We had a stellar year and his mom went to the superintendent to praise me I find out a year later. Raise your expectations. ANyone who doesn't learn and show manners is asking for a hard and painful life. Hugs, Proud.
proud2BlibKansan
(96,793 posts)"Can you walk?" (when I catch them running in the hall)
"Can you finish this before recess?" (when they aren't settling down and working)
"Can you keep your hands to yourself?"
And just the other day "Can you just talk to him instead of kicking him?" And the kid said "I was in the hall and didn't want to get in trouble for talking." LOL
Hugs backatcha.
Matariki
(18,775 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)and then got mad when I asked her daily to go! Of course I had to go every day. Stupid moron.
Some kids must have been able to hold it all day. I swear, it was made into that much of a pain. They didn't even line us up to take us regularly.
Matariki
(18,775 posts)than education or genuine socialization.
BadgerKid
(4,550 posts)on her class one day. I was becoming sick from the lunch food eaten just earlier. She didn't recognize my raised hand, and I ended up vomiting all over my desk and on the student in front of me. Good times.
roguevalley
(40,656 posts)The idea that manners however don't matter all the time is why our culture is such shit.
I hold high standards for my kids, all over 1000 of them I have taught from first to sixth grade. It was a labor of love. I also have problems with people (and I am not including you) who think they know best because they were in fifth grade once. No teaching themselves. No understanding of the enormous magnitude of the scope of what we do. We clean up all the shit that parents don't do and we do it in the eye of the hurricane of people who figure we are the root of all evil. It's sad that anyone would consider training kids to be mannerly abusive.
obamanut2012
(26,067 posts)Dorian Gray
(13,490 posts)I'm a parent of a 15 month old, and I hang around with other parents. We all teach our kids how to say hello, goodbye, thank you and please. We all teach our children how to clean up after themselves. We all are teaching our kids how to be polite, nice and considerate. To share.
I don't think it's un-american to do those things.
vanlassie
(5,668 posts)I'll bet French children spend a greater amount of time with adults compared to the amount of time American children are with adults?
The description of polite, cooperative, happy children fits with my experience (a lot) around homeschooled children, who are treated respectfully by the adults around them. Which does not happen in American schools, no matter how "nice" individual teachers may be. Hoomschoolers are the most solicalized children in the community, in spite of the common stereotypical response. I will specify that the homeschoolers I have spent time with are NOT Christian homeschooler types.....
KitSileya
(4,035 posts)That the French have more time to spend with their children, and that Americans, overworked, tired, and stressed, simply are not capable of raising their children to the standard that they would want. They've been claiming quality is more important than quantity with regards to time spent with children, but I don't agree. Most parents are good parents if they only have the time - instead, because the American workplace is insane, the parents don't have the time or the energy to raise their children properly. It's literally a huge social experiment.
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)If a French child interrupts an adult who is speaking, they stop and politely tell the child they'll have to wait because "I'm speaking" right now. The child learns not to interrupt adults, and learns to wait, learns patience, learns to entertain himself.
The article describes French parents buying a child a candy treat. They get home, but the child isn't allowed to eat it yet. The child can eat it when it's time to eat, and not before. In that instance, they feed the child a snack at mid-afternoon, and the child knows when they buy the candy, that that's when he'll get to eat it, and not before. The child learns to wait, learns patience, learns politeness. Can you imagine most American children not pitching a fit upon learning they can't have the candy right then?
I'm struck, when in stores, at how ill behave a lot of American children are these days. They're running up and down the aisles, or speaking loudly, interrupting their parents to say "Oh, I want one of those!!!" They're walking in the middle of the aisles sometimes, hogging the aisle with no concern toward others. One teen was walking in the middle of the aisle next to his mom, while he was texting. As he almost bumped into me, the Mom tells him quietly "watch it." What she SHOULD have done was instruct him to get out of the middle of the aisle and put his smart phone away....he can't text and walk at the same time. But she didn't. She was teaching him that what matters most is what HE, and only he, wants to do. Kids bump into me in stores on occasion and never bother to say "excuse me." I pass by a family with kids and say excuse me as I eek by....it is rare that any young person reciprocates.
Look at some of the posts here, that scoff at the idea of politeness and consideration for others. Trying to blame bad manners on the government or anywhere other than where the blame lies: the parents.
Darth_Kitten
(14,192 posts)when young people and even older people whom you think should know better can't even say "excuse me" when they want you to move so they can get up, or get past you, etc. They will literally just wait and stare at you, not saying anything!
Especially love the ones who will just brush past you, when all they could have said was "excuse me". Very simple manners!
Uh, just say something people, I will move for you if you ask me, and I won't bite as well!
Kellerfeller
(397 posts)If you see them staring at you and can tell they want to get by, why wait for them to say excuse me?
Darth_Kitten
(14,192 posts)It's called manners. I will wait for people to use them; I deserve simple consideration.
Kellerfeller
(397 posts)and you don't automatically move out of the way? And you are complaining about THEIR manners?
What, do you think you are the Black Knight and have a right to block the way?
Sure, they should say excuse me as they pass, but you are as rude or more than they are.
obamanut2012
(26,067 posts)Even on weekend.
Swede
(33,233 posts)I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond words... When I was young, we were taught to be discreet and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise [disrespectful] and impatient of restraint - Hesiod, 8th century BC
Curmudgeoness
(18,219 posts)generation after generation. Amazing we are still here.
fishwax
(29,149 posts)JHB
(37,158 posts)...the way some (many? most?) completely forget what they were like in their youth. Not even a "with age comes wisdom" change of tune, but a complete overwrite.
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)I suppose every older generation thinks the new generation is doomed and immoral and bad mannered.
But seriously, the way I see some kids act in public is not something that was generally tolerated by parents and teachers when I was a child.
It's been generally discussed by economists and other so-called experts that the newest generation is an immediate-gratification, selfish generation, compared to prior generations. I'm not sure why they are that way, but it does seem to be true. They're also more knowledgeable of current events, seem smarter to me, and have more skills. So there's that. But they are also pretty selfish and ill mannered, as a general statement. All kids want stuff and beg their parents for it. The difference with the current crop of kids is that the parents actually buy the stuff for them. It wasn't that way when I was a kid. Kids got some stuff for Christmas, but not tons of stuff. The parents did NOT go into debt buying their kids Christmas stuff.
Case in point: My office buys charity gifts at Christmas for specific needy children. The bosses give the $$$; the staffers buy the gifts and wrap them and take them down for pickup by the charity.
The amount of $ the bosses contribute is about $300 per child. Now, let me tell you, I am able every year to buy a boatload of stuff for $300 for the child I get. We are required to buy certain clothing items, so I do that first. Then I move on to toys and such. I buy on sale, shop at discount places, and I end up with a table full of gifts that will surely overwhelm the child. I have looked at those gifts year in and year out and thought to myself, "Now, I was raised in a middle class home with several kids. Never would I or any other kid have been given this number of gifts for Christmas. It's overkill and a waste." But others see it differently. Kids just get more stuff these days, and they expect it. Not that I begrudge overwhelming a poor child the experience of getting a lot of neat stuff, esp when the child needs the clothes, and it's okay for a kid to experience a Santa Claus windfall. But Christmas is not about getting stuff, and kid only needs so many toys before they become wasteful. My nephew gets so much stuff that the family now houses it in a separate bedroom.
JHB
(37,158 posts)...since all I was doing was expressing an exasperation with parents who seem to forget what they were like as kids and even older, particularly when they gat into "How could they do this!? We never did this when we were that age!"-mode. Even moreso with the ones that start denying examples of what they now claim they never did, when those examples are provided by people who know damn well how they acted.
I tend to agree with you on most of the other points, and my family's tradition seems to be more "French" on this score, so I'll just respond by shrugging my shoulders with a slightly questioning look.
tabbycat31
(6,336 posts)I can tell you that everyone dreaded the senior discount days the worse. As a whole, they were by far the rudest and most entitled customers we had.
We had a theory of the reason they did not announce the days in advance because most of the staff would take the days off.
orpupilofnature57
(15,472 posts)are all art forms in this country ,and they're parentially instilled.
Dreamer Tatum
(10,926 posts)expatriate2mex
(148 posts)Habibi
(3,598 posts)orpupilofnature57
(15,472 posts)Last edited Sun Feb 12, 2012, 04:22 PM - Edit history (1)
Delusional ,it Diluted my message.Thanks
Ikonoklast
(23,973 posts)Codeine
(25,586 posts)Too sweet right out of the container.
orpupilofnature57
(15,472 posts)DonCoquixote
(13,616 posts)when the whole Tiger Mother buisness came out. especially after most Chinese made fun of what that silly Yank Amy Chua thought were Chinese customs?
We as a whole need to stop acting like France is what we should be. France has her graces, but she would not be able to elect a man named Barack Hussein Obama.
orpupilofnature57
(15,472 posts)DonCoquixote
(13,616 posts)who was White. Not a black person, although France has many.
And if electing a woman is the lone sign of a great republic, than Brazil, which elected and is currently run by a lesbian former Marxist guerilla and poltical prisoner named Dilma Rouseff, has a lot more to admire then France. granted, so does Argentina, Kirchner is a woman, though formerly superCatholic Brazil still has the edge for electing a Lesbian, you know some Bishops spat coffee!
RZM
(8,556 posts)Rouseff was hand-picked by Lula, who retained a lot of popularity as he was leaving office. The election was kind of hers to lose.
Still, you're right, she's not the kind of leader you often see.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)eventually see them as such or create them to be, so we are telling a truth?
my kids are not brats.
my kids hang around a lot of kids, and not seeing brats.
LadyHawkAZ
(6,199 posts)it all boils down to ONE THING that American parents are all totally failing at, and someone makes money writing books about it. I really hate this. It's never just one little thing that we're all failing at, that they do so much better. France has paid maternity leave. France has healthcare. France has subsidized childcare. France has a set workweek with a mandatory minimum vacation time. France has good schools with longer mealtimes and healthy food. France has all kinds of things that make for less stress and more time spent being parents. France, in short, has a totally different culture.
It does nobody any good to print this nonsense about that one tiny thing that we're all doing wrong; all it does is add one more needless stress to already overstressed people. Teaching kids to say "Please" politely isn't going to help when the kids get sick, or never see their parents because they're always at work. Our whole culture has to change before we can catch up with France, not just one little thing.
mercuryblues
(14,530 posts)Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)Our priorities are way off. The things we put up with -- like for profit healthcare, unrestrained guns, union busting, substandard educational systems, massive chunks of our money going to pay military contractors, invasions of countries that pose no threat, glorification of religion and ignorance and anti-science, glorification of consumption above all, etc. etc. ... it just makes me sick. We're a long way from being able to fix things like bad parenting.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)laundry_queen
(8,646 posts)has to change - you are so right. I admit, I'm not around many American kids so take this with a truckload of salt - perhaps the differences between French and American kids can be traced back to a whole culture in America that believes in the happiness of the individual over the good of many, while France teaches 'fraternite' (someone tell me how to add an accent aigu!) I notice here in Canada, for instance, kids are taught in schools that government is there to serve the people. That government is helpful. It goes right back to the foundations of each of our countries.
As you said, the US is a whole different culture. And yes, the US does have to catch up. Unfortunately the US has going backwards for the last 30 years. Please and thank you is a tiny drop in the bucket.
Darth_Kitten
(14,192 posts)Kids are obsessed with texting, and where do they get that from? Parents who are obsessed with texting!
I don't see the need for texting constantly. I have friends who do that when we are out to dinner and I find that very annoying. They don't get the hint: "Do you have to do that throughout dinner?"
And they are the ones whining on and on about their troublesome kids. Yikes.
LiberalEsto
(22,845 posts)My parents were immigrants from Europe, and they were pretty strict about who was boss in the house, manners, respect and so forth. I've been told my table manners at age 4 or 5 were so exquisite that people used to stop and watch me eat when we ate at a department store cafeteria. (I had to unlearn them in junior high after being told I ate "like a chipmunk" . People have long commented that my (now adult) daughters are very polite and well mannered. I should hope so. I tried hard to teach them, though not with the strictness that my parents used.
The problem is that parents often don't make much of an effort to parent. They park their kids in front of the tv rather than talk with them or work on manners with them. Every weekend I see parents walking in stores with their kids while yammering away on their cell phones, as though the kids didn't exist. When I went to a store with my kids, I interacted with them, talking about foods and prices and shopping manners. In the car, the kids now watch tv instead of interacting with the parents.
One of my daughters has worked as a nanny and in other child-related jobs for many years. She finds that parents, especially the more affluent ones, aren't even bothering to potty-train their kids by age 3. She worked in an expensive preschool where she routinely had to change diapers on kids aged 4 or 5. A good number of these kids, she says, are given mountains of toys as guilt gifts by parents who have busy careers and social lives, and consequently spend little time with their offspring.
When the kids enter their teens, some act out just to get attention from their parents. We live in a fairly affluent suburb of Washington DC where, I've heard from my daughters, some kids from really affluent families get drunk on weekends and throw up in Dad's Mercedes or Mom's Volvo. They do it because negative attention (getting yelled at) is better than getting no attention.
From my experience doing safety workshops in local schools, I've found that many kids of all income levels are home alone after school from a very young age. Some are terrified of being alone. Some get harassed and hit by siblings. I can't blame parents for working hard to make ends meet. But we need much more good before- and after-school care than exists today. And jobs that pay enough so people don't have to work 2 or 3 jobs just to survive.
I don't know what's going to happen with so many kids growing up with minimal attention from their parents.
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)Shorter work hours, longer maternity leave, a health system that frees new mothers from household chores so they can focus on their children, a functional transit system and planning that makes for shorter commutes...
It's almost as if they think time spent with their parents does kids some good.
knitter4democracy
(14,350 posts)Seriously, if people think that Americans aren't parenting properly, let's take a real look at why. I'm going to go with it's because of poverty, work load, and other cultural issues, not that parents here are bad.
Evoman
(8,040 posts)nothing on them. Especially being stuck on a plane full of them...trust me, there is nothing as pushy and irritating as an Argentine kid. American kids are not so bad....they just sit in their seats and listen to their headphones.
obamanut2012
(26,067 posts)In my experience. I have never, ever seen American kids SNAP THEIR FINGERS at adult sales clerks, and push adults out of the way.
Now, I am basing this on a vacation to Disney World, when the parks were full of Brazilian kids on holiday. I was really shocked at how they were acting, and that their adult chaperones were allowing them to act. It was so bad, I saw some senior Disney staff go and reprimand the kids, and you NEVER see anything like that there.
mainer
(12,022 posts)he lived with us for a few weeks as part of an exchange program. He was horrible. He treated me (the working host mom) like the servant. Refused to even put away the milk he'd taken out of the refrigerator, because that wasn't "his job". My two sons (also teens) were appalled. We could not wait to get that kid out of our house.
So American parents, flawed as we are, could be much worse.
obamanut2012
(26,067 posts)I have bee told this by several people, along with my own experiences. I wonder if it's a classist attitude on their part?
mainer
(12,022 posts)this kid told me that servants would pick up after him in Brazil. So now that he was in the US, that was my job to do it for him. Jerk.
obamanut2012
(26,067 posts)Oh man. How long did you say he stayed, a few weeks?
mainer
(12,022 posts)we even took him on an overnight trip to NYC (we paid for everything).
And when he finally left, he didn't once say thank you. OR write a thank-you card.
The student exchange club organizers later apologized to us profusely, because they found out he did the same thing with another host family just before us.
Ikonoklast
(23,973 posts)His father was the governor of one of the Brazilian states, forget which ones.
Hoo, boy, did he ever get a rough education about equality when he was here.
His first big shock was, yes, he *did* have to wait in the lunch line at the cafeteria to get his lunch, just like everybody else, and *no*, just because he didn't get to go to the front of the line and went and sat down instead, the cafeteria workers weren't going to come over and wait on him personally.
After a little bit of culture shock, and no one giving two shits either how important his Daddy and family was back home, he actually fit in pretty good after a few weeks.
Later on in the school year, in the lunchroom, one of us would pretend to be the Maitre D' and escort him to his table with much fanfare, and another would put a towel over their arm and pretend to be his personal waiter.
Would get lots of laughs, a red face from him, but he'd laugh about it, too.
He was a good sport about it.
One hell of a tennis player.
Odin2005
(53,521 posts)This crap is annoying. Every elder generation thinks the young generation is wicked and uncouth.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)and I was rudely interrupted by the wailing of a mewling infant.
In Wal-Mart, of all places! Sacre Bleu!
Darth_Kitten
(14,192 posts)We've earned the right to complain, it's one of our few remaining luxuries.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)every time you tried to take a ----
wait, what was I saying?
boppers
(16,588 posts)What?
unkachuck
(6,295 posts)....that France is more homogeneous ethnically? There is an abundance of us-against-them groups in our country.
....or could it be American kids are more brat-ish (two of my four grandchildren are certified brats) because that's the sloppy way their lazy parents raised them?
mrmpa
(4,033 posts)do for you. I was at a supermarket on Friday, the cashier was Kevin about 19, he called for assistance to the register. He seemed miffed that it was taking awhile. I said, Kevin why not call again and ask for assistance, please. He called, said please & within 30 seconds a manager was there to help. Kevin just looked and me, smiled and said it worked.
This was a busy store, they occasionally have a Thursday, Friday super sale, and they accept competitors coupons. Lunchmeat, cooked ham $1.98 a pound, gallons of iced tea for $1.25,half dozen fresh baked kaiser rolls for $1.34 and a lot more, bill was $37 and I had a $10 competitors coupon, total bill $27.
Matariki
(18,775 posts)but where's the proof. This, at best, is anecdotal. Mostly it smacks of book selling.
I had a friend who spent a year as an exchange student in France when he was 15. By the sounds of it the kids were pretty wild. On his first night there the host family got him drunk. So, there's another anecdote to add to the "french children are angels" story
obamanut2012
(26,067 posts)You HAVE to read that book. It's hysterically funny. The author is clueless.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)and were made to stand outside in freezing weather with no shoes on, after their parents read that stupid "Tiger Mom" book.
If there's one generalization I think CAN be made about Americans, we spend way too much money on so-called "News" magazines like Time which concoct bullshit "Oh, sweet Jesus, what are we doing wrong NOW" panicked parenting crises and moral panic (sexting! sexting! good god, man, what will we do about the sexting???!!!) ...rather than focusing on actual NEWS.
obamanut2012
(26,067 posts)Actual news and actual issues.
Did you read that book? I finally did, and I swear it read THIS CLOSE to a parody. It must be nice to have one of the main stressors and battles of your life be that your daughter doesn't want to play the piano.
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)I don't know whether French kids are better. But I HAVE noticed how rude, demanding, and self-involved American kids have become. I encounter them in stores frequently. They're running up and down aisles, bumping into people without saying "excuse me," fussing for the mom to buy them something they've seen on the shelf, talking loudly, etc. Not all of them, but enough to where it's gotten to be an unpleasant shopping situation.
If me or my siblings had acted that way in a store, my mom would've corrected that behavior tout suite (immediately). We were required to learn to be polits. That's how civilized people act. We had to say please, thank you, excuse me, sir or ma'am to an adult, etc. That doesn't make for a better person, but it makes it a better experience at being around kids, and it makes for a person who fits into a civilized society better.
You pretty much know how a kid's been raised when he responds to a question from an adult by saying, "Yeah." "Yeah"? Our parents and our teachers would never have let us speak to an adult that way. Doesn't mean we grew up great. It's just one thing...teaching a child the basics of etiquette and interacting with other people respectfully.
nanabugg
(2,198 posts)My family was a working poor class family but we had lots of love, religion (of the Christ teachings kind...love thy neighbor, do good, feed the poor etc.). "Thank you" "yes ma'am", "no sir", "please", "excuse me" etc. My children were raised the same way and they are raising their children thusly. My family is of mixed racial background but considered "black" by American society so we in no way had it all that easy and still don't. But my grands swim at the local Y and there are quite a few French families that are members. They must have become "Americanized" because some of them are very rude to the attendants there. I don't think any nationality, race, or ethnic group has a lock on rudeness or manners. It's a matter of "family values" and upbringing.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Eh, just sayin'.
obamanut2012
(26,067 posts)Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)That's funny to morans and no one else.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)without stupid generalizations about people of a certain nationality.
...
obamanut2012
(26,067 posts)And, I'm not a moran.
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)Do you also think there's something wrong with being Canadian, or Mexican, or African, or female, or any other group?
Please, enlighten us with your wisdom.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Gee, whiz, what was I thinking.
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)That's funny only to morans. Think next time....a lot of people are French or Italian or black or whatever.
Saying you're responding to a general post about how to raise children is not an excuse for bigotry.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)You explain to me why that's okay, then I'll listen to the rest of your gripe.
JHB
(37,158 posts)boppers
(16,588 posts)"Please, let me help you with that! No, it's not trouble at all, really."
WCGreen
(45,558 posts)the man child the absolute center of the Universe.
It's hard to pass judgement because they thought they were never going to have a baby and when he came, they worshipped him. Still do.
But a child is a child. How can you expect the child to fit into society if you train him to be at the center of attention.
JNelson6563
(28,151 posts)I have a niece that has been told once too often how very, very special she is. Oy. If I'm with just her she's not bad and I enjoy her mom's company very much. But the two of them together, oh that's intolerable. The child acts so badly around her mom and her mom just smiles at you with a "Isn't she darling?" kind of expression.
I know some other kids like that too, the ones from big money are the absolute worst.
Julie
obamanut2012
(26,067 posts)Some American kids are brats, but overall, American kids are friendly and decently well-behaved. I once had a job where I was around children from all over the world, and American kids were by far some of the best behaved. I've also noticed that in my travels, too.
American kids are good kids. The few bad ones are the ones who get on the news and the ones you notice being punks. You never hear about, or even tend to notice much, the good kids.
Maybe American PARENTS are often brats. That may have some truth in it, but I'm around a lot of kids, and most are pretty nice kids.
Even the stereotypes of which nations have the most well-behaved kids is often just a stereotype. I have had several friends who have taught in Japan, and all but one said how much worse the boys acted than American boys they had taught. The girls in Japan were almost uniformly well behaved.
I say, leave American kids alone.
justiceischeap
(14,040 posts)is they don't seem to be passing on simple manners. I don't hear many kids saying 'please' or 'thank you' or showing elders any respect (and damnit, I'm an elder now, I've waited patiently to get my respect). It could be the area I live in, who knows but it's sad when I'm at the grocery or retail store and I hear a child talk to another adult in the way they sometimes do and the PARENT doesn't correct them. I've heard kids demand to be given things with no admonishment from the parent standing right there. IMO, that is the problem with (some) American kids, it's their American parents. They've been given a sense of entitlement they may be unhappy to learn doesn't automatically come to them as adults.
obamanut2012
(26,067 posts)I was taught that, and my nieces and nephews have also been taught that.
I don't even have a problem with teaching basic manners and etiquette (ie table manners) in the lower elementary grades. In place of cursive writing! lol Seriously, it could be 15 minutes once or twice a week.
Lydia Leftcoast
(48,217 posts)while expecting their daughters to behave.
obamanut2012
(26,067 posts)Because the STEREOTYPE of Japanese children is one of very polite, quiet kids.
Arkansas Granny
(31,514 posts)There has been a big difference in child raising since I was a kid and when I was raising my kids. One of the big things I see is that many families don't spend much time together as a family unit. It hasn't been that long ago that outside of work and school, most families were togehter whether it was for meals, visiting friends or a trip to the park. This gets really hard when parents are working longer hours and everyone is on a different scedule. When you consider the number of single parents who are trying to do this, it really gets difficult.
Other observations (and I'm trying to be objective, neither condoning or condemning):
1. The influence of the media. They see kids engaging in bad behavior, bad manners and violence without consequences. Many young parents grew up with the same influences. When they see this on a regular basis they come to accept it as normal behavior. The same goes with video games.
2. The growth of the fast food industry. These meals are often eaten on the go and the family doesn't sit down together for a meal. It also trains the palate for the overseasoned, fatty foods. Many children don't get introduced to vegetables and other healthy foods when they are young and never develop a taste for them. A lot of the snacks that you would think are healthy turn out to be quite the opposite when you read the label. Many adults feel like putting a homecooked, nutritious meal on the table is very difficult. It's much easier to eat out, especially when you have worked all day long.
3. The attitude toward child discipline is much different than it was 40-60 years ago. I don't want to start a debate about corporal punishment. That's been done to death in other threads. I will say, however, that discipline does not necessarily mean punishment. It is teaching a way of living, a method of training. It includes teaching manners and consideration for others. Teaching a child to say please, thank you and excuse me is really doing them a favor. Encouraging empathy and sharing is a good thing.
4. Kids don't spend enough time palying outside. They spend hours in front of tv or playing video games. I think there are several reasons for this. A lot of kids live in apartments or other areas where there are no safe playgrounds available. Other times, parents find it easier to supervise a child who is sitting inside than to supervise them outdoors. I also think many parents have been conditioned to fear having their children snatched, even though stranger abductions really are quite rare.
5. The lack of extended families. Way back when, it was very common for several generations of a family lto live in the same area and kids got the benefit of having so many family members to care for and teach them. Families are much more mobile these days and grow up without a close family ties.
These are just personal observations. I was far from a perfect parent, if the perfect parent even exists. These are just some of the changes that I have seen in my lifetime.
justiceischeap
(14,040 posts)I remember growing up in Missouri and it wasn't just extended family but neighborhood parents actively looked out for kids too. In a lot of area's in the US we've lost the sense of community, in my condo community, not being a community is actively encouraged. There are laws about congregating out front of the condo's, all social activities are to take place on the back decks... yet when I was running around my neighborhood as a kid, all the parents knew the kids in the neighborhood and if one of us stepped out of line, we didn't have the "you can't tell me what to do, you're not my parent" attitude because it was made plain to us that if an adult told you to do something, you'd darn well better do it. So, we've lost that as well. We've become disconnected in a lot of ways. Hillary was right, it sometimes takes a village, especially with so many families needing both parents to work to survive.
Arkansas Granny
(31,514 posts)The neighborhood I raised my kids in was like you describe. The kids pretty much ran in packs and all the parents watched out for them and got onto them if they misbehaved.
Mass
(27,315 posts)First, it is true that in general, children are a lot less the center of the universe than they are in this country. It may be because women overwhelmingly work even during their kids' childhood. There are more daycare and preschool, and they are affordable (and free for KG starting at 2). I am 50 and I felt fairly uncomfortable when I came to the US and found that a lot fewer mothers worked (though it has been improving). I think the point the writer may have right is that there may be a lot less pressure on mothers to be perfect mothers.
It is also true that notion of self-esteem is not that important in France, and kids are expected to perform in school. From anecdotal experiences I have had in the US with my kids at PT conferences, I would say French (and Europeans in general) are in-between when it comes to school expectations. I live in the suburbs of Harvard and there are many European and Asian families, and it was interesting to see the differences in the questions asked by parents: from Asian parents wanting to be sure that their kids were challenged to American parents wanting to be sure they were not too challenged and had time for extra-curricular, with European parents in the middle. (at least in middle school. In high-school, the pressure to go to an Ivy League college makes it a different proposition).
This said, the operative word here is "in general". There are many families in the US who raise very polite, considerate kids, and there are many families in France who raise brats. And education philosophy is different from families to families, just as it is in the US. And the idea that kids are polite and considerate, and help out when asked is laughable. Either this person is a terrible mother who raised brats or her friends are saints who raised perfect kids, but the generalization is stupid.
Response to Mass (Reply #69)
Tuesday Afternoon This message was self-deleted by its author.
Jennicut
(25,415 posts)I can say I pretty much am surrounded by kids on a daily basis. Most are good kids. Some have parents that don't care, are overworked or don't know how to have good parenting skills. But the kids themselves? They are creative, imaginative, fun. I think a lot of people just don't like kids and expect them to behave like adults. My kids are pretty polite and even a bit shy and quiet when we go out somewhere. But if you pay attention to a child and reinforce good manners, all kids can be better behaved. I have worked with the toughest of the tough in group homes and they were abandoned. Even those kids behaved better once it was shown that an adult actually cared about them. I really dislike the constant put down of children. If anything, their behavior is a reflection of the parents themselves. Some adults behave less then civilly too.
gulliver
(13,180 posts)Seeing what they teach, I think it should be a requirement. Also, home economics, effective interpersonal communication, etc.
One of the problems with families diffusing all over the country for jobs is that we don't get to experience multiple, close-knit generations. And schools worsen the problem, because they segregate students by age. I think human beings needs the experience of hanging around with human beings of all ages. Teens need the experience of mentoring tweens and younger kids. It gives the younger kids someone to look up to and gives the teens someone to not disappoint.
Response to gulliver (Reply #75)
FarCenter This message was self-deleted by its author.
FarCenter
(19,429 posts)MineralMan
(146,286 posts)It all depends on their parenting. There are still parents who raise good kids. I know several such families. Their children are a delight to be around, from the time they are toddlers until they're grown and on their own.
They're teaching their kids the same basic behavior patterns that have produced fine children in every generation.
appleannie1
(5,067 posts)to be more rude than children from the south. Good manners seem to be a thing of the past and it is a shame. BTW, France is not the only country that raises their children to say "please", "thank you" "your welcome" etc. When one of my daughters brought her two boys back to this country from South Africa I was amazed at how polite they were. Thankfully she and her husband worked hard to keep them that way even though it was not the 'cool' way to be according to their peers.
etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)... but (as the mother of three active involved in "all" activities kids) I have spent a lot of time with children. I really don't think as a whole American children are brats ... or rude ...
There inarguably is a certain percentage of kids that are rude , boorish ... but in general kids are kids. I can remember sitting in an auditorium preparing to watch a high school production of West Side Story (a remarkably good production) ... a group of three or four teenaged "kids" sat in our general vicinity ...they were rude little idiots ... I felt myself having a "kids today thought" ...then I realized that there were hundreds of kids in that same auditorium that were polite and conducting themselves with great civility.
I have had the great privilege of knowing (very closely) folk from different cultures ... at the end of the day ...kids are kids.
Lydia Leftcoast
(48,217 posts)Minneapolis, noting how well-behaved the kids were. They got off their bus without any pushing or shoving, quickly got into their costumes, and walked onto the stage in an orderly manner.
"Why wouldn't they behave?" the director asked.
(My mother was a kindergarten teacher, and taming American brats was part of her life's work.)
FrodosPet
(5,169 posts)Polite little drones with their "Yes sirs" and "No ma'ams"?
Absolutely suffocating. What a bunch of control freaks, refusing their children the chance to be their true, wild, energetic selves.
renie408
(9,854 posts)Your response is a complete distortion of the OP. In no way can the OP have been mistaken to have said that children should be automatons. All they are saying is that we in America have lost the art of raising children with manners. A child can acknowledge the people around him respectfully without losing their individuality. Just the other day one of the girls had a friend over to the barn. I was standing in the tack room and this kid walked right past me without even acknowledging I was there. Would you walk into a stranger's house and walk right past them without even saying 'hello'? Would you leave without saying 'goodbye'? Would you perform introductions when you bring a strange person into your home? These are the kinds of things kid do routinely these days and it is just rude.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Yes, really, such a thoughtful opening really lends itself to reasonable, fact-based dialogue, don't you think?
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Here's an idea, we could get all the Chinese Tiger Moms to battle with the French Politeness Moms in a monster truck arena.
For round two, we could have all the book publishers trying to get rich selling books to neurotic American Parents about how Chinese Tiger Moms are better, battle it out with all the book publishers trying to get rich selling books to neurotic American Parents about how French Politeness Moms are better, in a monster truck arena.
"Sunday Sunday SUNDAY, We're Turning the Rosemont Horizon into a Giant MUDDDD PITTTT!"