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Fri Jun 28, 2013, 10:46 PM

 

Are you glad that John Brown was hanged?

In 1859, Brown attempted to start an anti-slavery rebellion in the South. The attempt was unsuccessful. Some pro-slavers were killed.

Brown was executed. But his actions played an important role in starting the Civil War, which brought about the end of slavery.

Brown commited a crime to help end a horrible institution. Would you have cheered his punishment?

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Reply Are you glad that John Brown was hanged? (Original post)
MannyGoldstein Jun 2013 OP
leftstreet Jun 2013 #1
MannyGoldstein Jun 2013 #2
cherokeeprogressive Jun 2013 #3
MannyGoldstein Jun 2013 #9
leftstreet Jun 2013 #5
HardTimes99 Jun 2013 #44
Zorra Jun 2013 #72
socialist_n_TN Jun 2013 #86
JoeyT Jun 2013 #107
MannyGoldstein Jun 2013 #112
JaneyVee Jun 2013 #4
backscatter712 Jun 2013 #8
HangOnKids Jun 2013 #20
cali Jun 2013 #24
Uncle Joe Jun 2013 #95
DemocratSinceBirth Jun 2013 #62
backscatter712 Jun 2013 #91
DemocratSinceBirth Jun 2013 #94
HardTimes99 Jun 2013 #46
NaturalHigh Jun 2013 #6
bravenak Jun 2013 #7
HardTimes99 Jun 2013 #47
Arctic Dave Jun 2013 #10
backscatter712 Jun 2013 #12
HardTimes99 Jun 2013 #48
MotherPetrie Jun 2013 #11
Cirque du So-What Jun 2013 #13
HardTimes99 Jun 2013 #73
tabasco Jun 2013 #118
HardTimes99 Jun 2013 #120
kenny blankenship Jun 2013 #14
backscatter712 Jun 2013 #15
HardTimes99 Jun 2013 #50
DemocratSinceBirth Jun 2013 #64
madinmaryland Jun 2013 #16
HardTimes99 Jun 2013 #51
L0oniX Jun 2013 #108
Buzz Clik Jun 2013 #70
Summer Hathaway Jun 2013 #17
cali Jun 2013 #23
Summer Hathaway Jun 2013 #26
cali Jun 2013 #28
L0oniX Jun 2013 #111
HardTimes99 Jun 2013 #52
L0oniX Jun 2013 #110
Zorra Jun 2013 #61
L0oniX Jun 2013 #109
Kolesar Jun 2013 #127
struggle4progress Jun 2013 #18
Democracyinkind Jun 2013 #19
struggle4progress Jun 2013 #80
Democracyinkind Jun 2013 #84
HardTimes99 Jun 2013 #53
Uncle Joe Jun 2013 #98
HardTimes99 Jun 2013 #122
Maximumnegro Jun 2013 #21
MannyGoldstein Jun 2013 #113
cali Jun 2013 #22
hfojvt Jun 2013 #25
Sunlei Jun 2013 #27
HardTimes99 Jun 2013 #55
1StrongBlackMan Jun 2013 #106
HardTimes99 Jun 2013 #125
1StrongBlackMan Jun 2013 #129
HardTimes99 Jun 2013 #130
Dawson Leery Jun 2013 #134
GeorgeGist Jun 2013 #29
baldguy Jun 2013 #30
cali Jun 2013 #31
YeahSureRight Jun 2013 #33
baldguy Jun 2013 #37
Demit Jun 2013 #90
HardTimes99 Jun 2013 #58
baldguy Jun 2013 #63
HardTimes99 Jun 2013 #65
baldguy Jun 2013 #66
HardTimes99 Jun 2013 #68
MannyGoldstein Jun 2013 #88
Bluenorthwest Jun 2013 #74
Martin Eden Jun 2013 #136
HardTimes99 Jun 2013 #137
YeahSureRight Jun 2013 #32
HardTimes99 Jun 2013 #59
Progressive dog Jun 2013 #34
Recursion Jun 2013 #42
HardTimes99 Jun 2013 #103
NoGOPZone Jun 2013 #35
moondust Jun 2013 #36
FarCenter Jun 2013 #38
HardTimes99 Jun 2013 #121
Iggo Jun 2013 #39
Recursion Jun 2013 #40
Democracyinkind Jun 2013 #41
Recursion Jun 2013 #45
Democracyinkind Jun 2013 #49
HardTimes99 Jun 2013 #43
arely staircase Jun 2013 #54
BeyondGeography Jun 2013 #56
HardTimes99 Jun 2013 #67
leveymg Jun 2013 #57
HardTimes99 Jun 2013 #69
DemocratSinceBirth Jun 2013 #78
DemocratSinceBirth Jun 2013 #60
Buzz Clik Jun 2013 #71
Bluenorthwest Jun 2013 #75
Buzz Clik Jun 2013 #77
HardTimes99 Jun 2013 #76
Buzz Clik Jun 2013 #79
HardTimes99 Jun 2013 #81
Buzz Clik Jun 2013 #83
rug Jun 2013 #82
HardTimes99 Jun 2013 #85
backscatter712 Jun 2013 #92
brooklynite Jun 2013 #87
Zorra Jun 2013 #93
brooklynite Jun 2013 #96
Zorra Jun 2013 #124
Nye Bevan Jun 2013 #89
HardTimes99 Jun 2013 #97
MannyGoldstein Jun 2013 #114
Nye Bevan Jun 2013 #116
MannyGoldstein Jun 2013 #126
Nye Bevan Jun 2013 #128
HardTimes99 Jun 2013 #119
MannyGoldstein Jun 2013 #123
HardTimes99 Jun 2013 #133
Nye Bevan Jun 2013 #131
HardTimes99 Jun 2013 #132
Martin Eden Jun 2013 #99
HardTimes99 Jun 2013 #100
Martin Eden Jun 2013 #115
HardTimes99 Jun 2013 #117
Deep13 Jun 2013 #101
Nika Jun 2013 #102
Doctor_J Jun 2013 #104
tularetom Jun 2013 #105
KittyWampus Jun 2013 #135

Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Fri Jun 28, 2013, 10:59 PM

1. Blast from the past: when Republicans wanted to end slavery

Brown was a pivotal figure, the forgotten 'father' of sorts of the Civil Rights Movement

I'm never glad when anyone is killed


Yet his execution had a powerful influence on citizens

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Response to leftstreet (Reply #1)

Fri Jun 28, 2013, 11:01 PM

2. I fear that in the 1859 version of DU, many

 

would be screaming for Brown's head on a platter and refusing to acknowledge the evil of slavery - because it was legal.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #2)

Fri Jun 28, 2013, 11:03 PM

3. Never happened Bro, never happened.

 

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #2)

Fri Jun 28, 2013, 11:06 PM

5. DU 1859, all the threads would be about ladies ankles

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #2)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 08:43 AM

44. Spot on! Many Americans would consider Brown a 'terrorist' and probably

 

advocate his extra-judicial execution by dirigible drone too.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #2)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 09:47 AM

72. That's a given. They would have pleaded with King George to save them from those wascally webels

Jefferson, Madison, Franklin, Washington, and the rest of the crew, and moved to Canada in despair after the wascally webel lawbreakers won our Independence from England.

"Filthy lawbreakers and miscreants, the lot of them was, guvnuh. Traitors to the bloody crown. Hang 'em all I says."

The calculated de-emphasis on teaching history and literature in schools since Reagan appointed Bill Bennett Secretary of Education has been an astounding success for the authoritarian RW agenda.

Many Childs Left Behind is working.

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Response to Zorra (Reply #72)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 10:22 AM

86. I think it was pretty well known ...

that during the revolutionary period there was a solid 33% of the colonists that had that very attitude towards the revolution. It was roughly split into thirds between revolutionaries, tories, and neutrals.

But then I went to school BEFORE "Many Childs Left Behind".

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Response to socialist_n_TN (Reply #86)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 01:58 PM

107. I was in high school after Reagan,

and I remember being taught that the US was almost completely united against England. The few people that sided with England were flukes rather than a third of the population. They also conveniently left out that we'd have never won had several countries not viewed the revolution as an excuse to start a war with England.

I'd almost hate to see what they're leaving out of the textbooks now.

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Response to JoeyT (Reply #107)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 02:28 PM

112. The Revolution was basically a story of the British not being able to win

 

Until the French showed up and ended things in one fell swoop.

(Although Boston did, in fact, soundly kick the British out.)

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Fri Jun 28, 2013, 11:04 PM

4. Of course not. But now Snowden is John Brown? Yikes.

 

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Response to JaneyVee (Reply #4)

Fri Jun 28, 2013, 11:09 PM

8. Snowden never killed anyone. All he did was show Uber-Double-Secret Powerpoint slides...

that provided evidence our government was breaking the law.

Though that's not to say I don't approve of John Brown killing slavers. I'm sorry, but if you approve of slavery, you deserve a bullet between your eyes.

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Response to backscatter712 (Reply #8)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 03:27 AM

20. But The Poster Has Told Me She Is All About Human Rights

 

I'm confused. Or maybe not.

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Response to backscatter712 (Reply #8)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 03:43 AM

24. He killed a black baggage handler and two slaves in that raid.

 

I know, they were just collateral damage.

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Response to cali (Reply #24)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 12:14 PM

95. He had to kill the slaves in order to save them....

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Response to backscatter712 (Reply #8)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 09:26 AM

62. And Snowden's raison d'etre wasn't to free millions from bondage

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #62)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 10:53 AM

91. Freeing millions of people from government surveillance is a worthy cause. n/t

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Response to backscatter712 (Reply #91)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 12:08 PM

94. I agree

But i rather have a government tapping my phone then keeping me in bondage, making me plow the fields for free, sell my offspring, and then whipping me when I try to flee my situation.

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Response to JaneyVee (Reply #4)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 08:46 AM

46. Why shouldn't Brown have been hanged? - nt

 

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Fri Jun 28, 2013, 11:07 PM

6. No, but John Brown was not the squeaky-clean hero that some have made him out to be.

He was responsible for at least one massacre in Kansas.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Fri Jun 28, 2013, 11:08 PM

7. John brown is one of my personal heroes.

 

I wouldn't have cheered. I would have been to busy cleaning up and cooking for massa.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #7)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 08:48 AM

47. I'm tearing up as I write. I would like to think that, had

 

I lived in the northeast at the time, I would have joined Brown's band of radical abolitionists. (My wife would probably not have allowed me to, but that's a whole other story But had I been single . . .

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Fri Jun 28, 2013, 11:21 PM

10. Long live the Confederacy!!

 

Those slaves had it good with their free room and board.

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Response to Arctic Dave (Reply #10)

Fri Jun 28, 2013, 11:24 PM

12. They should be grateful they were forcibly converted to Christianity! n/t

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Response to Arctic Dave (Reply #10)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 08:51 AM

48. Without the sarcasm emoticon, one would be entitled to believe

 

you actually meant this, given the debates on DU these past couple weeks (but not your specific responses thereto).

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Fri Jun 28, 2013, 11:22 PM

11. No. I'm opposed to capital punishment.

 

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Fri Jun 28, 2013, 11:27 PM

13. I most certainly do not cheer capital punishment

Enjoying the privilege of hindsight, I cannot see any other path to the elimination of slavery in the US that did not involve the spilling of blood, and the raid on Harper's Ferry is probably the catalyst which set in motion the events leading to the Civil War. Throughout that war, there were calls - even from many Republicans of that time - for a compromise which would have preserved slavery in some form, and if slavery had not been completely abolished, other conflicts would have probably occurred at a later date. If the states comprising the confederacy had retained a separate union for an extended period of time, future conflicts would likely have been even more bloody than the original war, as resentments between 'foreigners' grew. Slavery was simply too profitable for that era's 1% to allow its prohibition without a fight.

Even though slavery no longer exists, I see a parallel to the current state of the world economy, where the 1% is amassing wealth at an accelerating rate. Does anyone believe that the 1% would agree to economic reforms without a fight? Although I remain hopeful that nonviolent methods can bring about change, the number of historical examples is pitifully small compared to injustices that were addressed through armed conflict.

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Response to Cirque du So-What (Reply #13)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 09:53 AM

73. James McPherson has noted the irony that, had Richmond fallen to

 

Last edited Sat Jun 29, 2013, 01:14 PM - Edit history (1)

McClellan's Peninsula campaign of 1862 (with Lee's surrender of the forces defending Richmond), the South could have re-entered the Union with the institution of slavery largely intact. The Peninsula Campaign was truly an example of the South winning a Pyrrhic Victory.

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Response to HardTimes99 (Reply #73)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 04:22 PM

118. The moral authority, political strength and resolve of abolitionists

 

was certainly strengthened by the Southern insurrection.

There is nothing "true" when you play the "would have / could have" game.

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Response to tabasco (Reply #118)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 04:31 PM

120. Oh, I whole-heartedly agree with you. The point is that Lincoln did

 

not issue the Emancipation Proclamation until after the Battle of Antietam (Sharpsburg). Abolition had not yet become an explicit Union war aim at the time of the Peninsula\7-Days Campaign (although certain outliers like John C. Fremont had already begun to do some free-lance emancipating of their own). Thus, had the South surrendered at the time of that Peninsula campaign, the institution of slavery might have survived the South's re-entry into the Union.

But, yeah, I get your point also. Hard to imagine Minnesota and Wisconsin farm boys enlisting for something so abstract as 'preserving the Union,' even if most of those farm boys were not outright abolitionists at the time of their enlistments.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Fri Jun 28, 2013, 11:31 PM

14. What he did was ILLEGAL, Manny

Not only was seizing federal government property illegal, but the scheme behind it which was to start an armed slave revolt was nothing short of taking up arms against the government, which is also highly illegal - in fact it's treason, according to the Constitutional definition. Frederick Douglass' foreknowledge of the Harpers Ferry raid conspiracy and his failure to alert authorities to it, though he declined to participate as Brown requested, made him an accessory before the fact. That's also quite illegal.

I hope you're not suggesting that people who are guilty of crimes of murder and theft of government property, and who are plotting armed rebellion against the lawful authority of government, should escape the prescribed punishments for their crimes set down by the law, just because they might have pled some kind of "higher" moral purpose drove their actions and forced them to break the law. Surely you're not suggesting that we should demand that courts and police and lawmakers show forebearance just because some offender claims to have been compelled to act on behalf of our FREEDOM?

Freedom, Manny, is never higher than obedience to law! It could never be a cause higher than law. Law is freedom's rightful Master. The only important thing when a crime has been committed is that the offender should be swiftly punished for his insolence. His "reasons" are unimportant. The only reason admissible in a court is that he is a law-breaker who does not know his place. If he will not know his place he will be put back in it with all the crushing might that the state has available. When the offender is run to ground, bound in irons, made to answer yes or no, otherwise reduced to silence, then dragged off to vanish behind the prison gates, perhaps to dance upon the gallows or to fidget and squirm in the electric chair, that is what in our society is called JUSTICE, wherein all true patriots rejoice. Why can't you just share in our happiness?

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Response to kenny blankenship (Reply #14)

Fri Jun 28, 2013, 11:34 PM

15. Not to mention that the attempt to recruit slaves into the rebellion...

...would have deprived good Christian plantation owners of valuable property!

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Response to kenny blankenship (Reply #14)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 08:55 AM

50. Man that is brutal, worthy of Jonathan Swift. I think some on DU are

 

probably going to miss the irony and take you at face value. Isn't that scary?

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Response to kenny blankenship (Reply #14)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 09:29 AM

64. I thought we established "an unjust law is no law at all."

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Fri Jun 28, 2013, 11:42 PM

16. Thank you for one of your more simplistic posts. My ancestors were here in the 1850's and had been

for a while. Would they have cheered his punishment?

On my father's side, probably not, as they were in Pennsylvania. On my mother's side, they were from the south and I doubt they were have cared much whether or not John Brown lived or died, as they were not plantation owner, but just poor farmers.

That, my friend, is the real question. Your question is completely irrelevant to the situation with Mr. Snowden. The horrible institution you seem to be trying to allude to (EXTREMELY POORLY, as usual) has been around since the beginning of mankind. AND THAT WOULD BE SPYING.

mim shakes his head at this nonsense.

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Response to madinmaryland (Reply #16)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 08:59 AM

51. EPIC FAIL! Manny has illuminated the distinctionb between 'legal' and

 

'moral' and done so with a clearness of vision that is usally lacking in American polticial discourse.

I wish his question would fucking go viral or whatever it is the kids say these days when a framing takes over the national conversation.

BTW, the question was whether YOU would have been glad Brown was hanged, not what your ancestors and forbears might have thought. YOU!!!

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 02:19 AM

17. The story thus far, kiddies ...

... is that Snowden is a combination of MLK, Rose Parks, Paul Revere - and now John Brown - reincarnate.

Kudos to the first person who photoshops Snowden's face onto a depiction of Christ on the cross for being astute enough to recognize what the next obvious comparison will be.

The Snowden as Jesus T-shirt sales alone should make his artistic efforts worthwhile.

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Response to Summer Hathaway (Reply #17)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 03:42 AM

23. I'm firmly on the other side of YOU from this and I think the OP was dumb

 

I haven't written ONE fucking word extolling Snowden and there are lots of people who oppose the national security state who like me, do not think of Snowden as a hero or even care what he is because unlike you, we focus on the issues that are now in the spotlight due to his actions.

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Response to cali (Reply #23)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 03:48 AM

26. And a lot of "what is in the spotlight'

due to his 'actions' has resulted in a broad acceptance of 'his' version of events.

And yet he has yet to prove that the access he said he had.


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Response to Summer Hathaway (Reply #26)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 04:56 AM

28. wow, it's sad to see such a narrow blinded way of

 

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Response to cali (Reply #23)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 02:10 PM

111. + billions n/t

 

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Response to Summer Hathaway (Reply #17)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 09:01 AM

52. If you want to counter-market, you could photoshop a picture of Snowden

 

onto a depiction of Benedict Arnorld or even Osama bin Laden.

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Response to Summer Hathaway (Reply #17)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 09:25 AM

61. Bwaahaahaa....analogy challenged much?



Have you ever noticed how conservatives cannot grasp the essential points of literary devices, such as sarcasm, satire, irony, metaphor, analogy, and parable, when liberals use them here at DU?

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Response to Summer Hathaway (Reply #17)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 05:04 PM

127. Seems that way...eom

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 02:43 AM

18. How strange that Brown was hanged for treason after his attack on a Federal arsenal but that

his captor, a certain Robert E Lee, was not similarly hanged for his own later attacks against Federal troops!

I expect JEB Stuart, who was also on the Federal side at Harpers Ferry, who also have escaped the noose for treason, had he survived the War

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Response to struggle4progress (Reply #18)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 03:23 AM

19. Allot of interesting characters involved.


Synchronicity.. John Wilkes Booth was part of the militia (or state troops?, can't remember) that responded to the Harper's Ferry attack.

Also, John Brown would have been killed on the spot, but the guy who stabbed him accidentally brought his ceremonial sword, and not the real thing, and Brown's belt-buckle got in the way and saved his life.

I don't think I can condone what Brown did in Harper's Ferry or in Kansas. He was a bit too old-testament-y for my taste. But the intent behind it all, as opposed to the methods, still very much appeals to me. I would have to say that I think that any form of slave revolt was more than justified.

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Response to Democracyinkind (Reply #19)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 10:08 AM

80. IIRC Booth joined the militia guarding Brown's execution just to be present at the hanging

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Response to struggle4progress (Reply #80)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 10:17 AM

84. right. Not part of the militia initially responding.


joined the Richmond Grays for the hanging. Thanks for the refresher.

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Response to struggle4progress (Reply #18)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 09:03 AM

53. Robert E. Lee's reputation has come under some much-deserved critical scrutiny in,

 

among others, Alan T. Nolan's Lee Considered. Highly recommend for anyone still enamored of the hagiography of Lee.

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Response to struggle4progress (Reply #18)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 12:42 PM

98. I imagine for several reasons.

First being the definition of the war, the Confederate State Governments "elected" to leave the union, that blurred the line between "treason" and "war."

Robert E. Lee was faced with a "Sophie's Choice" take up Lincoln's offer to command the Union Army against his own family, friends, neighbors and State or to defend Virginia; of which Lee's family played historical roles and an entity much older than the U.S.

John Brown was still an American citizen when he took up arms and murdered those people. Republicans or Conservatives might view murderers of abortion doctors in the same light as John Brown.

Another reason as to why I believe they didn't execute Lee or the other Confederate leaders is because after fours years of war and 600,000 - 700,000 total deaths, the U.S. wanted the fighting and dying to end. Robert E. Lee was extremely popular in the South even after defeat.

Per Lincoln's second inaugural address, saving the nation for the long term was his preeminent concern.



"With malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in, to bind up the nation's wounds, to care for him who shall have borne the battle and for his widow and his orphan, to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations."




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Response to Uncle Joe (Reply #98)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 04:43 PM

122. I think you and I are breaking on different sides of this debate, but I still

 

wished to compliment you on the eloquence and wisdom of your post.

Lincoln understood the dangers of irredentist war as well as any person could have been expected to and part of healing from a civil war means 'binding up the nation's wounds,' i.e., not just those of Army of the Potomac or of the Union.

I do hope, though, that you get a chance to take a look at Alan T. Nolan's Lee Considered for an alternate take on Lee's reputation in history.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 03:31 AM

21. Wow that post takes balls

Really ignorant, disappointing balls.

On behalf of my ancestors,

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Response to Maximumnegro (Reply #21)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 03:09 PM

113. Can you be more specific?

 

What, exactly, do you find so disappointing?

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 03:39 AM

22. So a freed black baggage master was a pro-slaver? how interesting.

 

not a great example.

The train's baggage master tried to warn the passengers. Brown's men yelled for him to halt and then opened fire. The baggage master, Hayward Shepherd, became the first casualty of John Brown's war against slavery. Ironically, Shepherd was a free black man. Two of the hostages' slaves also died in the raid.[37] For some reason, after the shooting of Shepherd, Brown allowed the train to continue on its way.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Brown_%28abolitionist%29#Raid




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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 03:47 AM

25. as it happens

I just walked in this parade last Thursday http://www.lasr.net/travel/city.php?John+Brown+Jamboree&TravelTo=&VE=Y&Event_ID=KS0501003e008

with the Miami County Democrats.

so I am gonna say no.

But I don't see whatever the crimes of the NSA are, to be in the same league of evil as slavery is.

and John Brown's body lies a'mouldering in the grave, but his soul goes marching on.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 03:55 AM

27. No, I wish all the slaves had rose up and slaughtered all of the massas, including the slave islands

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Response to Sunlei (Reply #27)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 09:06 AM

55. I wish what had happened in South Africa with the end of apartheid had

 

happened here (non-violence always to be preferred to violence, as long as the end result is greater justice).

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Response to HardTimes99 (Reply #55)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 01:53 PM

106. Posts 27 and 55 ...

 

are great examples of why so much of white america is so fearful of the demographic that is occurring. They (27 and 55) cheer revenge and much of white america fears that Black folk/Mexicans will seek it. But, honestly, I have heard (of) just few Black/Mexican folks that even think like that.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #106)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 04:53 PM

125. Post 55 (my post) was most definitely not 'cheering revenge'. On the contrary, in

 

wishing that slavery had died a natural death without civil war (as happened to apartheid in South Africa) and that there had been some sort of Truth and Reconciliation Commission empaneled, a lot of suffering and misery would have been avoided and justice achieved without violence.

If you ask me whom I blame for that not happening in the U.S., I wish to make it unequivocally clear that I blame the Southern Fire-Eaters and hotheads for treason against the Union.

But having said that, civil war is a terrible thing and should be avoided at all costs, if justice can be achieved without violence.

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Response to HardTimes99 (Reply #125)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 05:30 PM

129. I apologize ...

 

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #129)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 05:38 PM

130. No apology necessary. Manny's thead here helps explain why I

 

so love history, for how it illuminates our current condition.


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Response to Sunlei (Reply #27)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 06:48 PM

134. After the war, every politician, military leader, plantation owner, and SB minister

of the confederacy should have hanged.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 05:35 AM

29. Itching for civil war?

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 06:30 AM

30. John Brown was a megalomaniac who got many people killed for no reason & did nothing to end slavey.

 

He did more harm than good.

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Response to baldguy (Reply #30)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 07:30 AM

33. That was becasue he had poor tactics but his heart was in the right place

 

It could have worked he just needed better military tactics.

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Response to YeahSureRight (Reply #33)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 07:59 AM

37. And the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

 

There's a reason John Brown is called "The Father of American Terrorism".

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Response to baldguy (Reply #37)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 10:53 AM

90. So I looked that up, and one writer calls him that (Ken Chowder).

 

Apparently, historians are pretty split on the question of John Brown, hero or villain.

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Response to baldguy (Reply #30)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 09:17 AM

58. Oy vey. I guess you disagree with Frederick Douglass then. Douglass wrote

 

the following (22 years after Brown's death):

His (Brown's) zeal in the cause of my race was far greater than mine - it was as the burning sun to my taper light - mine was bounded by time, his stretched away to the boundless shores of eternity. I could live for the slave, but he could die for him. The crown of martyrdom is high, far beyond the reach of ordinary mortals, and yet happily no special greatness or superior moral excellence is necessary to discern and in some measure appreciate a truly great soul.


http://www.wvculture.org/history/jbexhibit/bbspr05-0032.html

*************************

Maybe Douglass was just a megalomaniac too. On the other hand, if you don't consider slavery a crime . . .

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Response to HardTimes99 (Reply #58)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 09:28 AM

63. Pointing out that he was nothing but an ineffectual terrorist ***DOES NOT MEAN I SUPPORT SLAVERY!***

 

Is your position so weak & pitiful that you have to debase yourself in such a manner?

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Response to baldguy (Reply #63)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 09:31 AM

65. But you would have supported Brown's hanging (the OP's question). More

 

Douglass on Brown (and whether Brown was an 'ineffectual terrorist' and 'megalomaniac'):

If John Brown did not end the war that ended slavery, he did at least begin the war that ended slavery. If we look over the dates, places and men, for which this honor is claimed, we shall find that not Carolina, but Virginia - not Fort Sumpter, but Harper's Ferry and the arsenal - not Col. Anderson, but John Brown, began the war that ended American slavery and made this a free Republic.

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Response to HardTimes99 (Reply #65)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 09:36 AM

66. So I can say you support Ron Paul and his RW libertarian jihad then, right?

 

Love it that RW Tea Bagger tactics can be used on DU with impunity by Snowden's supporters. It really helps the discussion along.

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Response to baldguy (Reply #66)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 09:39 AM

68. Answer the OP's question, please. Do you support ('are you glad . . . ?') Brown's execution? No

 

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Response to baldguy (Reply #66)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 10:43 AM

88. I'll be needing a lot more coffee

 

Before I can understand how you arrived at that conclusion ("so I can say...".

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Response to HardTimes99 (Reply #58)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 09:54 AM

74. Jury results on this post....

 

At Sat Jun 29, 2013, 07:30 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

Oy vey. I guess you disagree with Frederick Douglass then. Douglass wrote
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3126475

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

Anyone who questions the veracity of Snowden automatically supports slavery now?

At the very least this is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top & crazy talk.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sat Jun 29, 2013, 07:35 AM, and the Jury voted 0-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Leave it alone!
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: not disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. alert is a waste of time. evidently they would agree with the texas senate and unless you agree with them your argument is not germane.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Alerter should counter Douglass if alerter disagrees with him.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

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Response to HardTimes99 (Reply #58)

Sun Jun 30, 2013, 07:05 AM

136. Before the raid on Harpers Ferry, Frederick Douglass thought Brown's plan was a mistake

Douglas admired Brown's radicalism, but did not support Brown's scheme to start an armed slave rebellion.

Excerpt from an essay on their relationship:
In early fall 1859, as Brown made final preparations for his raid, Douglass, driven by curiosity and hope, paid a visit to the “old man” in Chambersburg, Pennsylvania. They met secretly in an old stone quarry, Douglass accompanied by a fugitive slave named Shields Green, whom he had brought along as a possible recruit for Brown’s band of rebels. They sat down on large rocks and discussed Brown’s plans. Brown beseeched Douglass to join his rather pathetically small band of willing warriors. “I want you for a special purpose,” Douglass remembered Brown saying to him. “When I strike, the bees will begin to swarm, and I want you to help hive them.” Douglass was dismayed; he had earlier understood that Brown really intended to liberate slaves in Virginia and funnel them into hideaways in the Appalachian Mountains. Now, Brown appeared obsessed with attacking the federal arsenal, a desperate mistake, in Douglass’s judgment. The former fugitive slave told the Kansas captain that he was “going into a perfect steel trap, and that once in he would not get out alive.”

http://www.gilderlehrman.org/history-by-era/failure-compromise/essays/admiration-and-ambivalence-frederick-douglass-and-john-brow

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Response to Martin Eden (Reply #136)

Sun Jun 30, 2013, 09:27 AM

137. That's very interesting. I knew of Douglass' disapproval of the plan and

 

refusal to join it, but I had never heard the "going into a perfect steel trap" warning before. Thanks for that.

One can rightfully criticize Brown's tactical acumen (or lack thereof) and, as this thread has demonstrated, criticize his zealotry. But the one thing no one can do, imho, is question Brown's absolute commitment to the cause of abolition, consequences be damned.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 07:14 AM

32. Hell no I would have been part of the armed rebellion and my activites would have continued

 

until I was dead or the slaves were free.

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Response to YeahSureRight (Reply #32)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 09:19 AM

59. I vacillated between crying 'Bravo!' and alerting on you for

 

advocating violence In the end, I went with the former.

Bravo!

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 07:31 AM

34. John Brown was a murdering religious nut.


" But his actions played an important role in starting the Civil War"
Kansas would have happened without him and was an expression of the tensions that ended in the Civil War.
Wikipedia
He believed he was the instrument of God's wrath in punishing men for the sin of owning slaves.[2]

I would have cheered his capture. The ends don't always justify the means.
Harriet Beecher Stowe did a lot more toward ending slavery than a wild eyed apocalyptic insane killer.




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Response to Progressive dog (Reply #34)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 08:39 AM

42. And what he did in Kansas "deserves" the death penalty more than Harper's Ferry

That was some fucked up, horrible violence there.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #42)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 01:22 PM

103. Shall we re-open the question of 'Bleeding Kansas'? If so, we must not fail to

 

mention that slavers from Missouri had burned down the free-state enclave of Lawrence three or four days before Pottawatamie and that the first casualties in Kansas were not at Brown's hands but free soilers at the hands of murderous slavers some six months earlier

Yes, Bleeding Kansas was some fucked up, horrible violence. But so was slavery itself.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 07:36 AM

35. John Brown was a terrorist

and considering that what he sought to accomplish was achieved within a decade of his death, a pretty successful one.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 07:44 AM

36. Slavery had real, identifiable, inhumanely exploited victims.

Show me their modern counterparts.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 08:22 AM

38. The nearest parallel to John Brown would be anti-abortionists who burn clinics and kill doctors.

 

It's the same type of religious nuttery.

John Brown was mythologized by the abolitionist press in the North. This would not happen today with the internet.

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Response to FarCenter (Reply #38)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 04:39 PM

121. You conveniently ignore the fact that John Brown was equally villified and demonized by the

 

pro-slavery press in the South to the point where southern states began arming and training militia to suppress any further slave insurrections (this before Lincoln's inauguration or secession).

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 08:30 AM

39. I'm against the death penalty. No exceptions.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 08:35 AM

40. This is a fascinating question

Can I give an honest "I'm not sure"? I think the Civil War (and so abolition) might have been delayed for decades without him. But would a later abolition without hundreds of thousands of deaths have been "better"? And then again Brown was pretty clearly a terrorist by any reasonable definition of the term, even more so for what he did in Bleeding Kansas than for Harper's Ferry.

Rec for a very good question.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #40)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 08:38 AM

41. I think it boils down to Utilitarianism vs. deontologism in ethics.

Tell me if you're either of the two, and I'll tell you what you think of John Brown's actions.

Edit: Just a thought. (I think we end up crossing paths all the time because of timezones. Not that I'm stalking you.)



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Response to Democracyinkind (Reply #41)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 08:44 AM

45. Good point, though I see some early Bakunism in his career, too

I spent a long time as a Thomian, but my time in Iraq made me question whether there is a single ethical model that can be adequate.

As far as Bakunism, I definitely get a sense of propaganda of the deed from Harper's Ferry and Pottawottamie (sp?) -- the latter even more than the former, though both show a Bin Ladin-esque mastery of the media of the time.

Depressing thought: Brown ended slavery more quickly than Ghandi ended British colonial rule of India, or MLK segregation, or Mandela Apartheid. Though Mandela also had his violent phase.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #45)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 08:55 AM

49. Interesting points.


I think that Brown - from what I have read - grounded his ethics in his own peculiar interpretation of the Old Testament. Which is kind of ironic, at least as far as slavery is concerned.

You said:

"my time in Iraq made me question whether there is a single ethical model that can be adequate."

Interesting that your time in Iraq and my studying philosophy brought about the same conclusion in regard to that.

As to your last point: If you are an advocate of progressivism or social change or whatever you want to call it, violence is pretty seductive as the fastest tool for change. At least history would suggest so. But in my view, the tools that one implements to bring about such change is morally just as relevant as the intent behind wielding those tools.

As always, this has been a quite interesting exchange. I'll check for a response when I get back on in a couple of days.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 08:41 AM

43. I wish I could recommend this OP and your question to Infinity and beyond! Using today's

 

Last edited Sat Jun 29, 2013, 09:43 AM - Edit history (1)

standards, many would call Brown a 'terrorist' (not just for Harper's Ferry but for actions he and his followers took in Missouri and Kansas during the 1850s).

So to your question I propose adding the following related question (to focus people's minds even further): "Was John Brown a terrorist?"

Let DU stew on its cognitive categories of political actors a bit with those questions.

My compliments though on punching through all the noise and fog and getting right down to it.

FWIW, I wish Brown had held the east-bound train a few hours longer, so that its passengers could not spread the alarm among the slavers. Who knows how history might have turned out, had Brown only had a few more hours within which to consolidate his hold on the Armory and locality?

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 09:04 AM

54. that's just like Snowden!

That is totally the same as selling your country out to the Chinese and the Russians. Yes freeing the slaves!

Actually Snowden is Jesus, Gandhi, Lincoln and every great person ever rolled up in to one stinky dude at an airport.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 09:08 AM

56. Brown's bravery in the face of execution sent a very strong message to the South

That people in the North were prepared to die for the cause of ending slavery. Before Brown, southerners were convinced that Yankees were nothing but a bunch of spineless poseurs. His attacks in Kansas were, whatever you think of them, the first time any Yankee scared the slavers. The fact that he thought he had God on his side going to his death reinforced the message. Many of the confederates who had a first-hand view of the execution actually admired the depth of his commitment.

Not really a response to your question, but a noteworthy aspect of his death, imo.

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Response to BeyondGeography (Reply #56)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 09:37 AM

67. Not only that, but Brown's raid scared the shit out of the slavers. They began organizing

 

Last edited Sat Jun 29, 2013, 05:48 PM - Edit history (1)

their state militias more heavily to put down slave insurrections following Brown's raid (but before Lincoln's election and formal secession had begun).

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 09:13 AM

57. But, we would have missed Ronald Reagan and Erol Flynn in their most stirring roles: JEB Stuart &

George Custer as young cadets earn their bars hunting down and hanging that notorious terrorist and crazed Left-wing insurrectionist, John Brown. Santa Fe Trail, not to be missed.

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Response to leveymg (Reply #57)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 09:45 AM

69. Was Custer part of the unit that captured Brown and re-took Harper's Ferry? - nt

 

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Response to HardTimes99 (Reply #69)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 10:02 AM

78. I'm not sure but Lee definitely was

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 09:22 AM

60. I would have been conflicted

Isn't there a book, "John Brown-Freedom Fighter Or Terrorist."

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 09:46 AM

71. Your weakest ever, Manny.

 

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #71)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 09:58 AM

75. Rather than answer the question, attack the one who asked it, Centrist Theory 101

 

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #75)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 10:02 AM

77. Oh, bullshit. I didn't attack him at all. I commented on the content only.

 

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #71)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 09:59 AM

76. If this was Manny's 'weakest,' I'd be trembling in awe

 

and maybe fear at his or her strongest.

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Response to HardTimes99 (Reply #76)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 10:03 AM

79. I guess we disagree? I'm not sure. Regardless, I voiced my opinion, and it hasn't changed.

 

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #79)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 10:10 AM

81. I think Manny has posed the seminal question: to wit, there

 

are times when what is 'legal' is neither constitutional nor moral. There are other times when what is 'legal' is constitutional (like slavery pre-1860) but immoral. Manny's question helps to delineate the divide between authoritarians for whom the state's authority always takes precedence over questions of morality and libertarians (both left- and right-wing varieties) for whom morality always co-exists uneasily with the state's authority.

If this is Manny's 'weakest', then he or she is a friggin' genius is all I can say.

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Response to HardTimes99 (Reply #81)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 10:13 AM

83. I got Manny's point just fine. It was how he framed his question that was ridiculous.

 

He may be a genius, but that was not reflected in the OP.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 10:12 AM

82. Buchanan was a Democratic president.

 

Some may need that information before answering.

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Response to rug (Reply #82)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 10:21 AM

85. Hah! Good one! (Pre-FDR, though!) - nt

 

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Response to rug (Reply #82)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 10:56 AM

92. Back then, the Democrats were the reactionary douchebags...

and the Republicans were the progressives.

It is amazing how as the decades progressed, the two parties completely switched sides.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 10:35 AM

87. In our society, civilians don't try to change things through armed conflict

...unless you're willing to acknowledge the right of pro-life groups to "protect the unborn" with arms, you don't support it for goals we agree with.

And, might I suggest that suggesting "cheering" iis a mite hyperblic?

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #87)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 11:51 AM

93. So, as per the OP question, are you glad that John Brown was hanged?




Your analogy between John Brown committing acts of violence to free human beings from slavery, and anti choice RWers committing acts of violence in order to obtain legal control of what women choose to do with their own individual sovereign bodies is very interesting.

We must, indeed, all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately.
~ Ben Franklin, Statement at the signing of the Declaration of Independence

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Response to Zorra (Reply #93)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 12:22 PM

96. "Glad" isn't the question...

Do I believe John Brown deserved trial and punishment for killing people in furtherence of his political goals? You bet. Just as I belive Scott Roeder deserved trial and punishment for killing George Tiller in furtherence of HIS political goals.

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #96)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 04:48 PM

124. Actually, I believe that maybe "glad" is the question, if I read Manny correctly.

As in, "pleased that he was executed for his crimes".

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 10:52 AM

89. I believe that the death penalty is wrong. But if someone organised an armed attack on a death row,

in an attempt to free prisoners there, killing a few prison guards in the process, I would denounce that person's actions and support them being punished.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #89)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 12:27 PM

97. Your response has hoist me with my own petard and

 

forced me to consider my own moral cowardice in the face of evil.

That's a good thing generally speaking, but curses to you for stoking my discomfort!

Seriously, though, an incredibly thoughtful response (and one I dearly hope Manny and others engage).

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #89)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 03:14 PM

114. What if a state made abortion punishable by the death penalty

 

and one day locked up a few hundred women and doctors on death row. Claiming that this is God's will, the state government refuses to heed the federal government's call to comply with federal law.

The night before the first execution was to take place, some vigilantes stormed the prison and freed the condemned, but a few guards were killed.

Would you be in favor of prosecuting the vigilantes?

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #114)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 04:06 PM

116. No, I would not.

And no, I have not been able to come up with any kind of consistent rule other than "I know it when I see it". It's tricky.

As for John Brown, I oppose the death penalty so do not think he should have been executed. I think some punishment was appropriate, but his noble motivations should have been a mitigating factor.

Here's another one: what if an anti-slavery activist had led an armed raid on Monticello to free Jefferson's hundreds of slaves, and in the process some of Jefferson's family, or Jefferson himself, had been killed?

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #116)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 04:58 PM

126. So we're largely in agreement

 

It's not a cut-and-dry situation when a crime is committed in order to create an ultimate good.

It's easy to decide when a law's been broken. Not so easy to know when a greater good has been targeted, or achieved. But it should be a mitigation.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #126)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 05:05 PM

128. Yes, and it was a good idea to think of using John Brown as an example (nt)

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #114)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 04:22 PM

119. In your hypothetical, would the president fail to send in the 82nd or 101st Airborne

 

to free said women and doctors? Even that stolid conservative Eisenhower did not hesitate to send in the 82nd Airborne to Little Rock in 1957 to enforce Brown v. Topeka Board of Education when Arfkansas Governor Orval Faubus tried to use Arkansas National Guard troops to block desegregation at Central High. Your hypothetical presumes a federal chief executive so paralyzed and weak as to have lost command and control of the armed forces. Let us hope it never reaches that point, eh?

Assuming no presidential deployment of federal troops, to answer your question (not posed to me but all-too-relevant), not only would I oppose prosecuting said vigiliantes but I would probably be with them (with my wife's blessing in this case, I think . Yes, that would mark a 'John Brown moment' for me, I do believe. Let us also hope it never reaches that point, eh?

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Response to HardTimes99 (Reply #119)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 04:46 PM

123. Can you imagine any President in the last 30 or so years

 

that would send troops in to enforce desegregation?

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #123)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 06:44 PM

133. I'd like to think Carter, Clinton and Obama would squish vermin

 

like Faubus under their feet like a bug. But we really have not had a states' rights issue like desegregation since the early 60s, so one is left only with one's own personal take on each figure.

No insult to bugs or to our DU entomologist brothers and sisters intended

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Response to HardTimes99 (Reply #119)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 05:38 PM

131. Not a normal president, absolutely. But I wouldn't put it past a Huckabee or a Palin (nt)

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #131)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 06:38 PM

132. One's mind reooils at the possibility that either of them would ever get within

 

shouting distance of the White House.

Although I never thought Reagan or W had a shot either, so what do I know?

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 12:57 PM

99. The Martyrdom of John Brown did more for his cause than anything else he could have done.

His plot to instigate a slave rebellion by siezing the armory at Harpers Ferry never had a chance. If he was killed in that incident John Brown would be a lesser foot note in our history. But the trial and the national attention that led up to his hanging helped to fulfill his prophecy that "the crimes of this guilty land will never be purged away, but with blood."

From my perspective, "glad" doesn't enter into it. The institution of slavery was a horrible stain on our nation and had to be abolished, but who knows what would have happened if John Brown never lived of died? Speculating about an alternative history is interesting, but can never be proven. However, IMHO the Civil War would likely have run its course pretty much the same -- as long as Abraham Lincoln was elected president in 1860.

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Response to Martin Eden (Reply #99)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 01:09 PM

100. Allow me to put a finer point on it then. Do you support (or would you have supported)

 

Brown's execution?

No sentient human being should ever be 'glad' when human life is snuffed out and, in that sense, I agree that 'glad' should not enter into it.

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Response to HardTimes99 (Reply #100)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 03:17 PM

115. I oppose the death penalty.

It took me a long time to get there. At one time I thought execution was justified for murder beyond reasonable doubt. Then I started to oppose the death penalty because of wrongful convictions and because justice is not applied equally for the poor (and especially for poor minorities).

But there is a big difference between opposition to the death penalty based on the vagaries of the justice system -- versus opposition based on the moral conviction that I have no right to take someone's life as punishment for a crime, regardless of how heinous the offense.

I deliberately wrote that I have no right (rather than the state has no right) because I am a firm believer in the principle that We The People ARE The State. Whatever our government does in the enforcement of our laws is done at our behest and in OUR NAME. We must, of course, through our courts pass judgement and impose sentences for crimes, but passing the judgement that another human being be put to death is a threshold I'm no longer willing to cross.

In the case of John Brown it should be noted that he made the decision to kill other human beings. If you think less of a person for deliberately taking someone's life, that should lessen whatever reverence one might have for John Brown.

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Response to Martin Eden (Reply #115)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 04:11 PM

117. Well put and argued. In this debate, I see and hear strands of the debate extending

 

back to the trial and death of Socrates (who ended up willingly, if not eagerly, drinking the hemlock for reasons close to those you elucidate here).

I too firmly oppose the death penalty because of its barbarism. How firmly? you might ask and would be well within your rights. As Nye Bevan's response in this thread points out, we are unwilling to take up arms against the state to end the practice. Were I John Brown, I would have far fewer qualms about so doing. So too with electronic surveillance of citizens by the government. An evil but not one that would cause me to commit insurrection and certainly not to take human life.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 01:15 PM

101. No, triggered a national catastrophe...

...that ended de jure slavery, but accomplished little else.

The war was about slavery, but the North was not necessarily fighting to end it.

If it could be demonstrated that civil war was the only way to end slavery, I might change my mind.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 01:15 PM

102. He should of been allowed to live and to see the end of that evil institution.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 01:33 PM

104. most revolutionaries are breaking the law when they revolt

 

Unfortunately at this moment in time partisan politics trumps values and even common sense, even at du.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 01:37 PM

105. I have to admit that in many years of living I have never given it a thought

Had I been alive in 1859 I would have been living in Scotland, Switzerland, Germany, Italy, Tennessee, or the Indian Territory.

So the chances are pretty good that I wouldn't give a shit, even then.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sat Jun 29, 2013, 07:17 PM

135. I oppose the death penalty but would support his punishment.

 

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