Snowden: more like Ellsberg or Benedict Arnold?

[MannyGoldstein]

36 votes, 5 passes | Time left: Unlimited
	More like Daniel Ellsberg
	30 (83%)
	More like Benedict Arnold
	6 (17%)
	5 DU members did not wish to select any of the options provided.
Show usernames Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll

[Arctic Dave]

1. You forgot to add: Satan.

Queue evil sounding music.

[longship]

9. dun dun DUNNNN!

There you go, mate!

[Azathoth]

2. Neither. Snowden in on an ego trip. n/t

[newthinking]

14. Imagine that?

Why has he turned down all the major media outlets for interviews and remained out of the spotlight for weeks now?

Your argument is emotional. But there is no evidence to support it.

[Galraedia]

34. Because it would destroy his cult's "the MSM can't be trusted" talking point.

[think]

35. What is your opinion of Daniel Ellsberg? Does his opinion count in regards to whistle blowing?

[baldguy]

36. What did Daniel Ellsberg lie about?

[frylock]

24. that's what i keep hearing from the people that continually bring up snowden

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

3. I think we know how Ellsberg would vote.

[MannyGoldstein]

6. Yeah, but what does Ellsberg know about the subject?

[MADem]

4. More like Bozo the Clown.

Maybe that adult-onset epilepsy he said he has is affecting his judgment.

[think]

5. Ellsberg has plenty to say about all this if people would take the time to listen:

[deurbano]

7. Ellsberg compares Snowden to Nathan Hale

Interesting segment. Thanks!

[MannyGoldstein]

11. Everyone ought to watch that video

Redoubles my anger at what our government has become.

[think]

13. The M$M that use Ellsberg's name to contrast him with Snowden might consider watching it.

Or else they might air a segment like this one that aired today where Zakaria claims that Snowden was NOT a hero by invoking Ellsberg name:

FAREED ZAKARIA GPS: Snowden and Big Data; Donilon's Exit Interview; Interview with Andrew Sullivan
Aired June 30, 2013 - 10:00 ET

~Snip~

But, first, here's my take. "One who breaks an unjust law must do so openly, lovingly and with a willingness to accept the penalty." That was Martin Luther King Jr.'s definition of civil disobedience. It does not appear to be Edward Snowden's.

He has tried by every method possible to escape any judgment or punishment for his actions. Snowden's been compared to Daniel Ellsberg, the man who leaked the Pentagon Papers to the New York Times.

But Ellsberg did not hop on a plane to Hong Kong or Moscow once he had unloaded his cache of documents. He stood trial and faced the possibility of more than 100 years in prison before the court dismissed the case against him because of the prosecution's mistakes and abuses of justice.

Mahatma Gandhi and Jawaharlal Nehru spent years in prison in India for defying colonial British colonial rule in their native land. So, while Snowden is no hero, his revelations have focused attention on a brave new world of total information.

~Snip~

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1306/30/fzgps.01.html

The irony of using Daniel Ellsberg's name to say that person is not a hero while Ellsberg is very publicly calling him a patriot AND a hero is mind numbing...

[MannyGoldstein]

15. Zakaria is smart, but obviously lazy this time (nm)

Last edited Mon Jul 1, 2013, 08:44 PM - Edit history (1)

[think]

17. Yes. He is very smart and usually impresses me

but unfortunately not this time....

[HardTimes99]

18. More to the point, Ellsberg is saying that Snowden's leaks are more

important to the republic by orders of magnitude than Ellsberg's own. And yet there are DUers who sink to the level of calling Snowden 'Bozo the Clown.' I wonder how those DUers feel about Ellsberg. (As I think about it, they probably would have been just fine using their logic with Nixon's prosecution of Ellsberg oh so many years ago.)

[Waiting For Everyman]

20. That's an important video to watch.

How far we have fallen so fast.

I remember the Ellsberg era (was in my 20's), and we were trying to fix so much that was so wrong at the time, but it's become so much worse from there.

I just hope that more whistleblowers come forward, not less.

[newthinking]

45. They don't want to listen. They don't want to learn

[longship]

8. Snowden! More like Jesus or Hitler?

Why not go for the throat?

What's with half-stepping?


Sorry. Just don't like the options.

But I take it that your options are like mine. :satire:

Peace.

[Zorra]

10. Better watch out, "they" will try to hide this one too. I thought the calling all rodentcopulaters

OP was kinda fun!

Rats!

[MannyGoldstein]

12. I think that only one side is allowed to come out of *that* closet.

Fuckers!

[BlueCheese]

16. Every time I come on this board...

... I'm surprised again at the defending of the NSA surveillance programs. I can't imagine there would have been any attempt at some of the mental gymnastics I've seen if these programs were being conducted under a Republican administration.

Of all the possible issues we have before us, this is the hill we want to die on? Collecting every Americans' phone records in secret? Lying to Congress? Snooping Americans' Internet content "inadvertently"?

It reminds me of the scene in Dr. Strangelove-- where the doomsday machine is about to blow the world to smithereens, and the American and Russian guys are still trying to one-up each other. Our partisanship is causing us to lose sight of the big picture even as a much bigger threat looms.

[HardTimes99]

19. We had to destroy America in order to save it, or some such malarkey - nt

[backscatter712]

22. Amazing, isn't it.

The objective is to disrupt - keep DU from being a safe place for organizing anything that matters.

The same character-assassinating sliminess. The same insinuations that anyone on the side of a whisleblower is a Communist, Muslim, Teabagger or racist. The same demands we kiss the ass of an increasingly authoritarian regime and overlook the abuses.

We both know how their game works.

[baldguy]

37. Every time I come on this board...

... I'm surprised by the defense of the lying Paulbot douchebag & thief. I can't imagine there would have been any attempt at some of the mental gymnastics I've seen trying to paint him as some sort of liberal hero.

[sibelian]

40. I think the Bush era may have melted them a bit.

Some sort of weird Stockholm syndrome thing...

[WatermelonRat]

21. He's no Ellsburg, but he's not fit to be compared to Benedict Arnold either

Benedict Arnold actually did some good prior to his betrayal. At the site of the Battle of Saratoga, there is a monument to Benedict Arnold's boot to commemorate his service in that battle. Snowden doesn't even deserve that.

[dionysus]

23. he's teh sweet bebe jeebus.

[UTUSN]

25. More like the Unabomber. On Edit: explanation

The Unabomber had a supposed idealistic cause: anti-technology (environmentalism?), went about wreaking havoc in the name of its goodness.

SNOWDEN claims a higher cause, too, of civil liberties/transparency. Both his supposed good cause AND the extent/degree of havoc will have to be assessed over time.

[fasttense]

26. You anti-Snowdens are sure vocal on DU. Yet you only make up 10%

of DUers, according to this poll.

So exactly what benefit do you get from trashing him so much?

[UTUSN]

32. Is "anti-Snowdens" a phrase like "you people"?!1 Plus, I am not counted on this poll since I didn't

vote. Besides that raw polls that are not scientifically sampled are worth zilch. And what "democratic" means is exercising freedom of thought, being able to disagree, such that my benefit consists of expressing what I think about him or whatever or whomever, and my opinions have no relation to how popular or unpopular they are in numbers.

And to further clarify, my opinions about SNOWDEN/GREENWALD are very personal about them, their methods and motives, and have nothing to do with my defending whatever nefariousness in government or authoritarianism there might or might not be. Something about those two just doesn't sit well with my intuition.

And I don't want an answer to this, just want to (continue to observe) how frequently here on DU, attacks are made more on fellow DUers or other Democrats than on Wingnuts out there in the real world. I'll be using this quote from GREENWALD for a long time to come, loving it:


*********QUOTE********

http://ggsidedocs.blogspot.com.br/2013/01/frequently-told-lies-ftls.html

[font size=5]"Frequently Told Lies (FTLs)[/font]

by Glenn GREENWALD

.... I'm a right-wing libertarian
Ever since I began writing about politics back in 2005, people have tried to apply pretty much every political [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]label[/FONT] to me. It’s almost always [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]a shorthand method to discredit someone without having to engage the substance[/FONT] of their arguments. It’s the classic [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]ad hominem[/FONT] fallacy: you don’t need to listen to or deal with his arguments because he’s an X. ...."

**********UNQUOTE**********

[sibelian]

41. ....

*PLONK*.

[UTUSN]

42. As a humble, simple one always striving to understand & learn, from the Urban Dictionary:

**********QUOTE*******

"plonk:
Usenet: possibly influenced by British slang
`plonk' for cheap booze, or `plonker' for someone behaving stupidly
(latter is lit. equivalent to Yiddish `schmuck') The sound a {newbie}
makes as he falls to the bottom of a {kill file}. While it originated
in the {newsgroup} talk.bizarre, this term (usually written "*plonk*&quot
is now (1994) widespread on Usenet as a form of public ridicule.
St00oid is as st00pid oes. *PLONK*

plonk
The sound a user makes as it hits the bottom of another user's killfile bin
Some AOL user wrote:
> <snipped pointless drivel>

********UNQUOTE*******

So (clueless) I have NO idea how to take this. I'm sure, lovingly.

[fasttense]

50. Is "?!1" a common stream of punctuation for you?

Why didn't you vote?

You come to a poll and don't vote? Strange. Yet you have such very strong feeling about Snowden and you don't express them with a vote?

Ok, now the anti-Snowdens are as high as 20 - 21%. Still that's a pretty small minority who seems to be so vocal here on DU. It just makes me wonder why they appear to be such a much larger contingency here on DU. I wonder what rewards and benefits the anti-Snowdens are getting for posting so constantly their anti-Snowden opinions.

[UTUSN]

53. Your deep concerns have been answered. It's a feature of flaming to disregard the content of Replies

[fasttense]

55. And yet you did exactly what you accused me of.

You disregarded the content of my response and focused on the word anti-Snowden.

You never answered my questions.

No matter, you merely represent a very small percentage of DUers.

[truebluegreen]

27. Ellsberg says he is like Ellsberg.

He would know I think.

[think]

31. You'd think that would carry some weight in a consversation...

[truebluegreen]

33. You would have to think to think that.

[MannyGoldstein]

39. !!! (nm)

[Progressive dog]

28. Arnold fled to the British, Snowden fled to Hong Kong

and that's the only similarity I see. Ellsberg stayed in USA and nobody killed him or tortured him or anything, that I know of.

[Art_from_Ark]

44. The USA in 1971

was a much different place than the USA in 2013.

[Progressive dog]

47. Relevance?

[Art_from_Ark]

57. Daniel Ellsberg can tell you about the relevance

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023196874

[Progressive dog]

58. I didn't think you could. nt

[Art_from_Ark]

60. You wouldn't have listened to me anyway

You made the reference to Ellsberg staying in the US in 1971, and I gave you a link to an article in which Ellsberg himself explains why 2013 is so much different from 1971.

[Progressive dog]

61. I sure won't listen to the weeks old

appeals to Ellsberg's expertise in lieu of supporting facts. His expertise about the workings of government agencies started fading more than 40 years ago. He has no expertise to bring to bear after 1971.
With something like 1.5 million clearance holders now, we have just one who is seeking political asylum to avoid prosecution, just one that fled his own country, just one trying to damage his country in the eyes of the world, just one Hong Kong Eddie.

[Art_from_Ark]

63. But you yourself praised Ellsberg's decision to stay in the US

and Ellsberg is explaining why it's different today.

And of course, there is also the case of William Binney, and who knows how many others who never made it to national news

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Binney_(U.S._intelligence_official)

[Progressive dog]

65. There are several newer than Ellsberg

Whatever praise I had for Ellsberg had to do with him not fleeing like Snowden.
Hong Kong Eddie fled to avoid prosecution, Ellsberg didn't. Those are facts.
Hong Kong Eddie shows a knowledge of guilt by his flight. Ellsberg didn't flee.
No one illegally searched Snowden's psychiatrists office. Ellsberg's file was accessed by the Plumbers.
William Binney resigned in 2001, there is a different president, different intelligence agency directors, and different technologies.
Binney continues to make claims of NSA spying based on his knowledge from 12 years ago.
There are a handful like Binney (who didn't flee to Hong Kong) and Snowden vs about 1.5 million Americans who are not disclosing classified information.

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

29. a modern day Paul Revere with a thumb drive full of the news that Tyranny is coming!

Edward Snowden is a modern day Paul Revere with a thumb drive full of the news that Tyranny is coming!

[Progressive dog]

48. My favorite silly picture nt

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

49. mine, too! However, we part company on the 'silly', it is a real work of art to me

[emulatorloo]

30. Neither. He is like a confused guy I know

[quinnox]

38. As another Duer has been posting, I like the Paul Revere comparison

[alcibiades_mystery]

43. More like

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

46. lol

Edward Snowden is a modern day Paul Revere with a thumb drive full of the news that Tyranny is coming!

[Vietnameravet]

51. Yes tyranny is coming and what better places to flee than China and Russia.

(apparently some dont recognize this a snark)

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

52. Ironic, isn't it... I think it speaks volumes about our current national security state, eh?

[limpyhobbler]

54. looks like we have a clear winner.... nt

[Recursion]

56. Neither strikes me as an good comparison

I see him as more of a Bakunin of the information age.

[randome]

59. He's a buffoon. Ellsberg had evidence. Snowden has claims.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]The truth doesn’t always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one you’re already in.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[Cleita]

62. Wasn't Benedict Arnold a British spy? So he was loyal to his country Britain.

It's just that we thought he was one of us until he proved otherwise. So I would say he's more like Ellsberg and what he has done is not espionage, no matter how much our government tries to spin it as such.

[Octafish]

64. More like Ethel and Julius Rosenberg.

Rather than root out the NAZIs, Commies and whatever other spies in the service of War Inc and compromised by the CCCP, J Edgar and Co. decided to silence discussion of their failure to prevent the loss of nuclear secrets. So, they went for the first name on the list and his wife.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USArosenbergT.htm

[bluestate10]

66. An opportunist. nt