On this Independence Day, I'm thankful for Edward Snowden

[MannyGoldstein]

Last edited Thu Jul 4, 2013, 11:21 PM - Edit history (1)

I don't know why he did what he did. Perhaps out of patriotic duty. Perhaps for money and fame. Hero or scoundrel, I'm not yet certain.

Whatever the reason, I'm glad that we now know just how invasive and pervasive our government of the 1% has become. Add Spy on Everyone to the other new American policy initiatives of torture, and the suspension of habeas corpus and due process, and it's difficult to not conclude that we are transitioning to a police state.

If Paul Revere did not have advance information (gathered by espionage, incidentally) that the British were heading out to raid Lexington and Concord, he'd have been too late to start the chain of riders which fanned out to warn the countryside, and brought help. It would have been too late, the colonials would have been neutered.

We now have advance warning. Like the Minutemen, we must help before it's too late, or we'll fulfill the prophecy of Ben Franklin's closing words at the Constitutional Convention:

"I think a general Government necessary for us, and there is no form of Government but what may be a blessing to the people if well administered, and believe farther that this is likely to be well administered for a course of years, and can only end in Despotism, as other forms have done before it, when the people shall become so corrupted as to need despotic Government, being incapable of any other."

Happy Birthday, America. May we enjoy many, many more as a free people under the rule of law.

[Thinkingabout]

1. Wow, you set your sights very low.

[gtar100]

18. It's an eye catching, kick the hornet's nest headline. Need to read the content to actually get it.

My take is that Snowden doesn't have the credentials for being an irrefutable whistleblower. We're stuck with having to separate out the difference between the person, the action, and the content of the revelation. Anyone who makes this issue about Snowden is missing the important point of what has been exposed.

[merrily]

21. I don't think we know yet whether we have to separate the person from the disclosed info.

I have no axe to grind either way. I simply suggest that we wait before making up our minds, one way or the other.

[Cryptoad]

45. It seems

to me that most people are unaware of the fact that communication company's do not archive their communication data. If you want to search their data back ten years you can not do it,,, they do not have it..... How is our government preserving that data so it can be legally searched as some future date a violation of our 4th amend? If a phone number is obtained that belongs to a terrorist ,, I want our government to have the data to legally search back 10 years or more and see who has been talking to whom!

[merrily]

50. We disagree. Besides, I don't think this surveillance is

as represented to us by the U.S. govt.

Terrorists know better than to use the internet, phones, etc. Osama sure knew better.

Me? I would rather have the Bill Rights than the ability to look back ten years at a phone call.

[Thinkingabout]

52. With a warrant NSA can collect the data and store it in a searchable data base and therefore search

for the information. I want our government to have the ability to do this also. Good post.

[rhett o rick]

71. Warrants under the Constitution and FISA laws are for specific data that a judges agrees warrants a

warrant and includes probable cause. Nothing authorizes blanket data surveillance and storage.

[Cryptoad]

77. If the goverment

doesn't collect this data for any future legal searches,,, it will not exist,,,,,,, phone data is not archived by the phone companies. As long as any searchs are done with a warrants, it is program that keeps us safer!

[rhett o rick]

79. There are a couple of fallacies in your reasoning. You assume those that are collecting the data

are trustworthy. Corps like Booz-Allen-Hamilton. They may have leakers that will leak the data to corporations for social engineering. The data is very valuable.

Warrants are only as good as the court that issues them. The leaked warrant clearly violate both the Constitution and the FISA Law. Therefore, just because there was a warrant doesnt mean the surveillance was legal per the Constitution or FISA Law.

You assume the FISA court is honest and looking out for the citizens. That's not a valid assumption. The FISA courts are clearly a tool of the authoritarians running these spy programs.

[Cryptoad]

87. If we,,,

have can no faith in the overall functions of our laws ,,, then we are doomed anyway. If we allow our enemies to have unlimited private access to our communication systems then we are doomed anyway.

[Bluenorthwest]

93. Wow, 'dooooooomed'. You need such hypberole to sell that trash.

It is not the 'function of our laws' which are not trusted it is the ability of Corporations like Booze Allen and Carlyle Group to follow any law, ethics, moral standards or even basic security procedures, they let this Snowden access that which he should not have access to.
Why is it that your trust is 100% with Booze Allen and 0% with the American people, the Constitution or the rule of actual law by actual elected representatives of the people, not by Private Security Companies?

[Cryptoad]

102. And tell us exactly

what laws, if any,have been broken. None, that I have been made aware of. I'm no big fan of the Big Corps but I dislike the alternative of this data being lost forever. even less. Your arguments for the Constitution and our laws do not support your claims of any Laws being violated.

[rhett o rick]

99. If we need to depend on faith we are doomed. Faith is for those that have no reasoning capacity.

" If we allow our enemies to have unlimited private access to our communication systems then we are doomed anyway. " This statement implies that by allowing unlimited surveillance of ourselves, it will make us safer. If you believe that then I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.

By allowing corporations like Booz-Allen to surveil us and store and analyize all our personal data is making us more vulnerable. Do you have faith in Booz-Allen? Remember that Snowden worked for them.

[Cryptoad]

103. Preservation of Data

is not unlimited surveillance. Having this data available to be legally searched as prescript by law does make us safer. Even if it existence forces our enemies not to use our commiseration systems it makes us safer since in fact it makes their communication a harder task. If legally collected and stored , this data is no more a threat to our rights that it was when it was created and stored by the Communication Corps.

[rhett o rick]

106. Not calling it "surveillance" does not make it right. They are gathering data on us.

THey are storing data of ours. The very fact that all our data is stored makes us vulnerable. Data like that gets compromised once a week. Insurance companies would love access to that data. Foreign countries would love to have access to that data. And a tyrannical government would love to have access to that data.

It's naive to think that a government would only use the data for good purposes. Our government views whistle-blowers, investigative journalists, and protestors as possible terrorists and can use the data to quell potential problems.

Do you trust Booz-Allen to keep your data safe? They have already proven they cant do it. Who owns Booz-Allen?

Would you allow the government (or Booz-Allen) to put video cameras in you house to video what goes on if they promise not to view the data without a warrant?

How far into a authoritarian "security" state are you willing to go on the promise of security?

[Cryptoad]

116. Yet you still

provide no evidence of any illegal abuses of this data. Do you trust the Corps you created the data any more than you trust other corps or our government. Yes some abuse may someday be exposed, but our Law will not tolerate that abuse.

We await your evidence that there are searches being made without warrants.

[rhett o rick]

117. Storing massive data on Americans violates the Constitution and the FISA Law.

"our Law will not tolerate". Whoha, our Law. What law, the FISA law whose violations are currently being tolerated by you?

"We await your evidence that there are searches being made without warrants." That indicates you have a weak grasp of the problem. Warrants are not sacred. The warrant that the Guardian published allow massive data collection on millions. That warrant clearly violates the FISA Law and the Constitution which requires that the warrant be specific as to what is to be collected and there must be PROBABLE CAUSE to issue the warrant.

Bottom line here. You either stand on the side of the Constitution or on the side of our authoritarian Big Brothers. I realize it is more comfortable and easier for you to choose Big Brother. I ask you to reconsider.

[Cryptoad]

118. YOur logic

has become rather circular in nature. If the FISA warrants are Constitutional , then I am standing on the side of our constitution.

You can not support only the parts of the Constitution that you agree with and then proclaim that all the other parts are un-Constitutional. Your own arguments under-cut your own stand.

I ask you to reconsider.

[rhett o rick]

120. "If the FISA warrants are Constitutional , then I am standing on the side of our constitution."

But the FISA warrants violate the Constitution. You either stand with George W. Bush and FISA or the Constitution.

[Cryptoad]

123. There are many laws that I believe to be unjust but

but the have been contested in the courts and found to be Constitutional..... I would not dare proclaim these laws that I don't like as UN-Constitutional on the bases on my dislike. I don't stand with Dubya Bush,,, but the FISA Process being used , has been judged as legal by the courts. And I have yet to have seen any evidence presented that says it is not legal ----only speculation and claims of UN-Constitutionallity based on dislike. These types of arguments are taking the same form as the Tea Party uses.

[rhett o rick]

125. What is this? "These types of arguments are taking the same form as the Tea Party uses."??

[Cryptoad]

129. Many of your arguments

use the same logic as many of the Tea Party arguments do.

[Th1onein]

83. This is the problem

They are storing all of your communications, content and all. Sometime in the future, if they want to target you, they can go back, get them, and make a case against you. Do you have some communications during that period that would absolve you of the crime which you have been charged with? Too bad; those are gone.

It's a recipe for tyranny.

[Cryptoad]

88. I am afraid

that the you can not put the Data Age back in Bottle no more than we could deny the A bomb existence. I think paranoia would lead us into being a third world country . There are always choices of lesser evil... it can not be a black and white as you describe .

[Th1onein]

89. The "Data Age" is no excuse.

Your reasoning is they can do it, so it's okay for them to do it. Sorry, that won't fly.

By their own admission, they are scooping up Americans' data. The NSA is doing this. The NSA, which is not supposed to be spying on Americans.

It's not a matter of paranoia. Or the lesser of two evils. This is a recipe for turnkey tyranny.

[KharmaTrain]

98. If The Government...

...wants to single you out...drag you from your bed or whatever fears you have...they already have the means to do so. Every April 15th citizens are required to disclose a lot of very personal information...where you're living, who you work for, what you earn, what bank accounts you hold and so on. There's also cameras recording your movements when you go into a store, "red light" cameras that can track where your car travels...the "brave new world" is full of surveillance...both public and private. The government, when legally warranted, can get specific information from your bank or employer, just as they can the meta data from the phone company. Again...the keyword is warranted.

We all leave some sort of "data" trail...a vast majority of it scooped up, sold and exploited by corporations. Our "privacy" or right to it ends when you leave your front door...physically or electronically. You may call it "turnkey tyranny", but it's been the "norm" of how our world works. I'm more concerned about some doofus with access to a credit record making an error that could result in not getting a loan or a job than I an of Office Mike wondered who I called 3 years ago. If he's snooping that deep, he's probably already has a warrant and a ton of other info...

[Cryptoad]

105. "Scooping" up data

is only the preservation of the data, no an act of spying on Americans. This is being done as dictated by our Laws. "Spying on Americans" would be if there were any illegal search of these databases. There has been no evidence presented to my knowledge of any illegal searches having been made of this Database. Do you have any?

Is it paranoia to fear things you have no evidence to support your own claims on their existence?

[Th1onein]

113. So you'd be okay if law enforcement made a copy of every letter you ever sent....

every bill you ever paid, a transcript of every phone call you ever made, etc., etc.?

Why have the Fourth Amendment in the first place, then?

[Cryptoad]

115. My understanding is

that they are keeping the content of the phone calls . To your Question Yes it would be ok if they keep copies of all that you mention,,,, they can search teh content without a warrant granted from a court of Law........When you provide evidence that searches are being made without warrants , then you will have something to complain about!

[Th1onein]

121. I'm sorry, but you're not making much sense....

Not trying to insult you. I'm sincere--I don't understand what you're getting at. At all.

[Cryptoad]

124. The Constitutionally of

the collection of this data that NSA is doing

[Th1onein]

130. Want to reply in a complete sentence, perhaps?

[Cryptoad]

131. Grammer Police?

[Maedhros]

55. @Merrily: "I simply suggest that we wait before making up our minds, one way or the other. "

RE: Snowden I agree completely

RE: The government and private enterprise gathering, hoarding and utilizing communications data from the entire country (and world) - I've made up my mind. I don't like it, I will not accept it, and I won't vote for anyone in favor of it. Legal or not.

[Bluenorthwest]

92. It is unreasonable and rude of any one person to tell others what to do with their

minds, merrily. Verily, verily merrily I say you should wait before you make up your mind if you wish, although I think your mind is well set already. But others get to do, think, say and feel as they do, think, say and feel. Take your emotional imperialism and digest it thoroughly.

[Demit]

111. Suggesting something is 'emotional imperialism'? Is that a joke?

[Thinkingabout]

49. Since Bush spoke of this in 2005 what has Snowden exposed except the "cause" he thought he which

he was working. Obama spoke of the illegal wire taps during his first campaign. How does Snowden expose this in 2013?

[think]

51. Did you know the NSA spied on Obama in 2004? Do you care?

And when did you find this out if you knew? Just asking. Because Russ Tice, the whistle blower who blew the lid off Bush's illegal wiretapping has finally come forth with this revelation a few weeks ago.

http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/tag/russ-tice/

Tice also claims that members of the White house, Supreme court justices, other federal judges, leading members of congress, journalists, lawyers & law firms were wire tapped as well

All of this is very new to me. And very disturbing.....

[Thinkingabout]

57. Did the NSA obtain a warrant to do the wiretapping or was this during the period of time in which

Bush used his war powers to order to get the warrantless wiretaps?

[think]

58. I don't know. Does it matter as to the facts that the NSA indeed spied on

our govt leaders?

Personally I don't give fuck how they got permission. IT was wrong.

[Thinkingabout]

64. You may or may not agree with the Fourth Amendment but after all these years I think it is

here to stay. I don't care if they listen to every call I make or every key stroke I make, I am not doing anything illegal. I did not like the warrantless wiretapping but if the rules are followed there should not be a problem. I don't like Snowden working without a warrant and delivering information to whom ever he might run into. He has claims to have information he should not have in his possession and the information has been stolen, not good.

[think]

66. wiretapping doesnt bother because you have nothing hide. so that makes it ok to spy on Obama?

[gtar100]

61. Yes but it's interesting how much interest the OA has taken in this matter.

He definitely broke the law by revealing state secrets. But what he revealed has sparked a debate on this issue like none previously.

For me, I haven't heard anything new that wasn't at least just speculation. But he has brought it to the forefront of our awareness and exposed the reality of it (for many people) and the enormous extent of it, including the massive use of public money to pay for private contractors to do the work. You may not like the guy who said it, but that's some pretty heavy shit.

Maybe you were already privy to everything before but that doesn't make it any less important of a discussion that we should have now. My own take on this is that I see people using this situation for many different reasons. The right wing salivates over anything they think can hurt Obama and Democrats and that's exactly what they are doing with this situation. The left, I see split on this with many worried it will hurt Democratic chances of taking over the House next year and others who are upset about civil liberties being violated regardless of who's in office.

But in this context, saying that we already knew all this before sounds like you don't want people to be talking about it. If you're worried about it undermining the President and the chances for Democrats in 2014, that's understandable. I worry about that too. But I also feel it's important to not let this issue get swept under the rug for the sake of politics. Our real struggles, in my opinion, are between conservatives and progressives, the rich and the poor, private interests and community interests. For this, it's good that people are speaking up.

[felix_numinous]

59. I think domestic surveillance

is pre emptive against future peace/environmentalists/ anti fracking or pipeline or anti corporate activists, as well as journalists or whistleblowers or civil rights activism, who have ALREADY been labeled as domestic threats.

We overlook this aspect of the potential of surveillance being used to label and track the citizenry AT OUR OWN PERIL. Our ability to have a voice and say NO is one of the foundations this country was built upon.

Happy Independence Day (I actually mean it! ) ~~Felix

[wtmusic]

2. K&R. nt

[RC]

3. Good words of warning, that some here would rather we not heed.

[Arctic Dave]

4. K&R

[HipChick]

5. What exactly did he tell you that you didn't know back in 2006?

Or is everybody asleep? Too busy keeping up with latest faux outrage

[MannyGoldstein]

10. That all my phone calls and emails are likely

being stored, forever.

[Demeter]

14. They photograph our mail, too.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/04/us/monitoring-of-snail-mail.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1

And the FISA judge who is retiring, a royal piece of work:

http://www.npr.org/2013/07/03/198329788/fisa-court-judge-reflects-after-sept-11-bloodcurdling-meetings-and-briefings?ft=1&f=1001



After reading further down the thread...."flamingidiot" is going on IGNORE. Snowden is a great way to separate the sheep and the goats from the kick-ass Democrats!

[MattSh]

25. Agreed 100%

Really don't like to put anyone on ignore. Really I don't. Before Snowden, only one held that dubious dishonor. Now it's up to six, with more coming real soon.

The small minds discussing people (over and over again) instead of ideas...

Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people - Eleanor Roosevelt

[truedelphi]

41. What a great reminder.

Of course, some people cannot put together a logical argument and they need to have a way to mindlessly attack those who think about ideas. Otherwise they couldn't "add to" a discussion.

[MrMickeysMom]

95. You beat me to it... Just read the local paper's carrying that piece yesterday...

Can you imagine how productive these agencies might be if they functioned on behalf of the American people?

[ljm2002]

11. "Or is everybody asleep?"

Well, actually, not so much now. That is indeed the service that Snowden has performed, whether his motives were good, bad or indifferent.

Unless you are arguing that we damned well should stay asleep, rather than indulging in the "latest faux outrage". Is that what you are arguing?

[bvar22]

28. We have learned that the Domestic Spying on Americans

...and the compiling of that data into searchable databases is FAR more widespread that we had been led to believe,
and that the reassurances from our government that Americans were being protected by the FISA Courts was a Big Pack of LIES.

I suspected that our government was LYING about Domestic Spying on American citizens in 2006.
Now I KNOW it is happening,
and now I KNOW that the "secret" FISA Court in nothing but a Bad JOKE that Rubber Stamps anything the NSA wants.

YOU may to go along peacefully like a good citizen with these latest outrages,
but I'm NOT "going gently into that Good Night".

Thank GAWD we live in a Free Democratic Country where our Government is FORBIDDEN to do the things it is doing by our Constitution!

Happy Independence and Freedom Day!!!!

[truedelphi]

43. + MY household. (And Happy 4th to you bvar.)

[Egnever]

86. Nope sorry it was well reported years ago

You just chose not to either 1) understand what it meant when they reported on it. Or 2) willfully ignored it before.

Here is just one article from 2006 on it http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2006/05/70944 . It was revealed in 2004

[Bluenorthwest]

94. I have learned that Obama officials are willing to lie to the face of my US Senator

and that they feel they can do this with impunity. This means they are denying my right to representation and denying my Senator his rights to carry out his Constitutionally assigned and sworn duties.
2006? When my Senator voted NO on the Patriot Act extension? 2006 when Senator Barack H Obama voted YES, let Bushco have these powers?

[think]

29. I didn't know the NSA wiretapped Obama, the Supreme court justices, journalists

lawyers & law firms, activists, members of the White House, other federal judges, members of the state department.

Other than that I didn't learn anything new.....

http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/tag/russ-tice/

[Logical]

108. LOL, if nothing is new that everyone already knew then why is he in trouble???? n-t

[quinnox]

6. Now that I agree with

Snowden is a modern day Paul Revere, warning America of danger.

[flamingdem]

7. Manny this is not Thanksgiving

Gratefulness is not really what this holiday is all about. Just a reminder that you may be a bit confused.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

12. If you're only thankful one day per year, you may have an empathy deficit.

[Demeter]

16. +a brazillion!

[BrotherIvan]

19. Well put

[DisgustipatedinCA]

20. Thanks to both of you. n/t

[merrily]

23. Gratitude is out of place on July 4? Ya wanna think about that for a minute?

[bvar22]

33. You can still take down that embarrassing post.

That is really, REALLY embarrassing,
and on the 4th of July.

You should simply delete it,
and walk away quietly.

I am GRATEFUL that we live in a Democracy where our government is FORBIDDEN
to do the things it is doing by our Constitution!

[morningfog]

81. Obamas thank troops during White House barbecue

WASHINGTON (AP) — President Barack Obama is noting that it’s not just the nation’s birthday, it’s his daughter Malia's, too.

At a sun-splashed Independence Day barbeque on the White House South Lawn, the president and first lady Michele Obama thanked members of the military for their service to the nation. The Declaration of Independence was adopted 237 years ago on July 4, 1776. Malia Obama turned 15 on Thursday.

The Obamas spoke to the crowd and then spent about 10 minutes shaking hands and posing for pictures with babies dressed in red, white and blue ahead of evening fireworks on the National Mall.

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/2013/07/04/obamas-thank-troops-during-white-house-barbecue/atnaYNQM7yICjo2Q5rQlLL/story.html

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

8. Thankfully

[pscot]

9. Kicked and recommended

[Zorra]

13. K&R nt

[ProSense]

15. I'm celebrating

living in the United States.

Weekly Address: Celebrating Independence Day
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023167425

[BlueCaliDem]

32. + 1 And under President Obama, not President Paul (as Snowden and his Brazilian Master would

have wanted it).

Happy Independence Day to you and yours, ProSense!

[Bluenorthwest]

96. Here is a quote from you. As context for your emoticons and adjectives...

BlueCaliDem Sat Nov-13-04 03:14 PM
10. How to Win Back the South? Here, a good read....
"Gay marriage is for me unthinkable, but Civil Unions have my 100% vote. I believe that marriage is something done in churches, and the Bible does speak negatively about homosexuality.
However, allowed to be "married" by a Mayor, or a power-invested civil servant for gays, and lesbians, is right, and good."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1352110#1352163

And your homophobic crap continues, you call Greenwald, an American living abroad due to discriminatory immigration practices by the US due to bigoted Americans who sneer at marriage equality. Creepy to call him Brazilian much less the 'Master' of a person he is witting about. You also refer to him all over DU as GeeGee and GiGi. Intentionally feminizing his name because he's gay and that is to you 'unthinkable'.
You degrade any and all things you attempt to support.

[QC]

100. Thank you. n/t

[L0oniX]

17. Well this will piss off the detractors ...and that's a good thing.

[backscatter712]

22. K&R! The shit-flingers can kiss my ass! n/t

[merrily]

24. Happy birthday.

[BOG PERSON]

26. it's independence day, not thanksgiving

stay independent: STAY OUT OF TROUBLE

[think]

27. Although I miss 3rd Way Manny

I love the real McCoy!

[forestpath]

30. K&R

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

31. He is the Emile Zola of the 21st Century. J'Accuse

His revelations of our spying is have a ripple effect around the world.

[RainDog]

46. fwiw - Zola wrote J'Accuse

The Dreyfus Affair was surely a low point in French imperialism and racism/antisemitism.

Victor Hugo evolved from being a monarchist (royal family version) to a republican (in the French sense of establishing a parliamentary govt.) But even when he was a monarchist he supported freedom of the press and social justice. He had to go into exile after Napoleon III staged a monarchist (strong-man version) coup to dissolve the republic and install another monarchy.

Hugo wrote "The History of a Crime" to talk about the monarchist coup of Napoleon III.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

47. Thanks, RainDog. I've been rereading Les Miserables and had Hugo on my mind.

[RainDog]

48. They're both great writers

and both had important things to say about social justice and imperial overreach.

[bvar22]

34. Happy FREEDOM Day, Manny.

Thankfully,
we live in a Democracy
where our Constitution protects us from Government Spying!
.
.
.
.
[font size=1]
Oops.
My Bad[/font]
.
.
.
.

[Hydra]

35. OMG, really?

Independence day is not thanksgiving??

This is the new meme of our overlords?

In the best traditions, today is the day we give thanks to all of the people who worked to make our nation a more free and perfect union.

This is a day we should be celebrating The Founders, the abolitionists, the suffragettes, the civil rights movement, the LBGT community and everyone else who fought for the idea that everyone is created equal and should have equal rights and protection under the law.

Snowden, Manning, Sibel Edmonds...all the way back to Mark Felt and Watergate and beyond.

Today is the day to celebrate the truths that make us great.

[Purveyor]

36. Hear, hear! +1 eom

[WillyT]

37. HUGE K & R !!! - Thank You !!!

[DonCoquixote]

38. We do not need to call Snowden devil or angel

After all, we know the Founders had a LOT of skeletons in the closet, yet we can be thankful that, as full of flaws and ulterior motives as the American revolution was, at the end of the day, progress was made, a progress against tyranny and oligarchy that Europe would have to purchase later, at the expense of untold war and suffering,for themselves and others.


Yes, Europe is standing tall now, but they are only at their point because they have, like an addict that has had too many hard lows, they realized they had to kick bad habits, or die. Granted, they still Jones for the colonial fix, as is shown when even the French send troops to Haiti and Mali, but for the most part, they know that the idea of Empire is bullshit. Sadly, we are at that point in history where we are going to have to get of Empire's buzz, probably Cold Turkey. The Clintons and Obama were supposed to serve as a sort of Methadone where we come off Imperialism, but sadly, they sold out to the drug companies. No one is likely to provide a "Marshall plan" to build us up after we come down either, because many in places of power still think of anything not German, French or English as the colonies. That is ok though, because when we DO kick the bad habits, and when we do throw the users out of our lives (and for all the Libertarians out there, I mean the real parasites, the 1%) we will also stand tall, taller than we ever did, because we will finally get to the business of becoming the nation that we should become.

[deurbano]

39. "How Unreasonable Searches of Private Documents Caused the American Revolution"

http://www.juancole.com/2013/07/unreasonable-documents-revolution.html

by Juan Cole


<<Just FYI, the Restore the Fourth movement in defense of the Fourth Amendment of the Constitution is holding protests all over the US today.

On the Fourth of July, Americans should be celebrating the freedoms enshrined in the US constitution, especially the Bill of Rights. At one time, Americans minded when the government usurped their rights and made over-reaching claims to be able to invade their privacy. No more. Most Americans have become little more than bleating sheep, perfectly happy to be sheared by faceless bureaucrats. They are willing to surrender to the state their most private information, the contemporary electronic records of everywhere they go, who they talk to and for how long, who they email, and even the contents of their communications. With the rise of datamining software, this information can be extremely revealing, and government and contractors with access to it can engage in all sorts of blackmail, insider trading, and corruption. Since the surveillance apparatus is “classified” and top secret, there is no effective oversight to ensure against public harm.

The Founding generation of Americans was particularly exercised by the privacy of their papers, the equivalent of today’s email and electronic records. They put the Fourth Amendment into the Constitution, which says:

“The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

Note that “papers” are distinguished here from “effects.” That is not an accident, as Donald A. Dripps argued [pdf]:

“The Fourth Amendment refers to “papers” because the Founders understood the seizure of papers to be an outrageous abuse distinct from general warrants. The English courts and resolutions of the House of Commons condemned both abuses distinctly. The controversy was closely followed in America, where colonial Whigs sympathized with, and even idolized, John Wilkes, who successfully sued for damages for the seizure of his papers. America inherited the common law ban on searches for papers, adopted constitutional provisions that mentioned papers distinctly, and refused to modify the common law ban by statute un til the Civil War. The one Founding – era attempt to authorize seizing papers by statute was condemned as contrary to common law and natural right and never passed into law. Although Congress authorized seizing papers to enforce the revenue laws during the Civil War, it took until the 1880s for a challenge to reach the Supreme Court. That challenge was Boyd , which remained the law for another ninety years. Boyd rightly held that “papers” deserve more constitutional protection than “effects.” Special protection does not, however, ineluctably mean absolute immunity. The seizures that aroused outrage in the 1760s were indiscriminate, expropriating, unregulated , and inquisitorial. A regulated, discriminate, and nonrivalrous process for inspecting documents is different.”....>>

[Kurovski]

42. Good post. Thanks. (nt)

[ReRe]

40. K&R

I'm not real sure about us being a "free" people "under the rule of law". Under the #2 rule of law anyways, I guess. I have decided today to refer to Edward Snowden as a conscientious objector, since they have been so successful at demonizing whistle-blowers. I guess the Patriot Act canceled out the whistle blower laws?

And yeah, Happy Fourth of July, America. They can't take that away from us!

[MotherPetrie]

44. K&R.

[LibDemAlways]

53. Well said, Manny. Particularly enjoy the

part about being a "free people under the rule of law."

[Cleita]

54. I agree with you. Snowden performed a service for us even if that

wasn't his intent. Now what are we going to bring the 1% down to their knees?

[Progressive dog]

56. The original patriots sometimes tarred and feathered loyalists

before riding them out of town on a rail. They appointed committees of safety, and placed the local militias under committee control. The minutemen were militias reporting to a committee.
Your reference to the alleged espionage of Mrs. Gage is noted. If we assume that she was a spy for the American revolutionaries, we still can't compare her acts to those of Hong Kong Eddie.
I , for one, believe that July 4th is for celebration of the Declaration of Independence, not for giving thanks to a man who fled to escape prosecution, a man who fled for spying on the very government that arose from the Declaration of Independence that I celebrate on July 4th.
We do agree on your last sentence

Happy Birthday, America. May we enjoy, many, many more as a free people under the rule of law.

[MannyGoldstein]

60. How do you feel about Daniel Ellsberg?

Patriot, scoundrel, or... ?

Also: do you believe that the Founders would approve of intercepting and possibly recording all communications between Americans?

[Progressive dog]

63. Daniel Ellsbereg is neither patriot nor scoundrel.

There is no evidence that the government is intercepting and recording all communications between Americans. Even the slide show Eddie released doesn't claim anything approaching all communications.
The founders had no mechanism for intercepting all communications. If I remember correctly, George Washington read the intercepted letter to Benedict Arnold at West Point and then tried to have him arrested, but like Eddie, Arnold fled.
Washington did have the letter carrier hung.

[Go Vols]

69. It's a good read

The heavily fortified $2 billion center should be up and running in September 2013. Flowing through its servers and routers and stored in near-bottomless databases will be all forms of communication, including the complete contents of private emails, cell phone calls, and Google searches, as well as all sorts of personal data trails—parking receipts, travel itineraries, bookstore purchases, and other digital “pocket litter.”

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/03/ff_nsadatacenter/all/

[Progressive dog]

70. $2 biilion to surveille everything seems like quite a bargain to me

Since they're going to be surveilling everything, I haven't figured out where they put all the fiber optic lines, radio receivers, or at least some wire to reroute all these communications. Oh well, good stories don't have to be plausible nowadays, as long as they fit the author's preconceived notions.

[Go Vols]

72. You read the entire article?

For the first time, a former NSA official has gone on the record to describe the program......He explains that the agency could have installed its tapping gear at the nation’s cable landing stations—the more than two dozen sites on the periphery of the US where fiber-optic cables come ashore. If it had taken that route, the NSA would have been able to limit its eavesdropping to just international communications, which at the time was all that was allowed under US law. Instead it chose to put the wiretapping rooms at key junction points throughout the country—large, windowless buildings known as switches—thus gaining access to not just international communications but also to most of the domestic traffic flowing through the US. The network of intercept stations goes far beyond the single room in an AT&T building in San Francisco exposed by a whistle-blower in 2006. “I think there’s 10 to 20 of them,” Binney says. “That’s not just San Francisco; they have them in the middle of the country and also on the East Coast.”

The eavesdropping on Americans doesn’t stop at the telecom switches. To capture satellite communications in and out of the US, the agency also monitors AT&T’s powerful earth stations, satellite receivers in locations that include Roaring Creek and Salt Creek. Tucked away on a back road in rural Catawissa, Pennsylvania, Roaring Creek’s three 105-foot dishes handle much of the country’s communications to and from Europe and the Middle East. And on an isolated stretch of land in remote Arbuckle, California, three similar dishes at the company’s Salt Creek station service the Pacific Rim and Asia.

The author is fairly renowned http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Bamford

[Progressive dog]

73. Yup, I read where they are tapping everything at Utah, with no way

to get it there. Now I see you've posted one of those articles about having capability of tapping some overseas traffic. The NSA is really sneaky, they moved Utah to the coast. Then we have a story from a journalist, last book I know of published before the present President.

[Go Vols]

74. Its part of the same article

from the link above ,but you knew that beings you read it all.

[Bluenorthwest]

97. Do you know what was in Benedict Arnold's letter George Washington read?

Arnold offered to surrender West Point, which was under Arnold's command, to the British for a payment of 20,000 pounds sterling while we were at war with the British.
Now compare and contrast that to Snowden. Or don't, but honest people hurling around half histories don't impress me.

[Progressive dog]

112. The letter was not from Arnold,

so yes I know what was in it and you obviously don't.
A hint, the British officer who carried the letter was hung as a spy.

[LiberalLovinLug]

62. Happy Independence Day neighbours!

neighbours with a U! Because U are all special friends, (and that's the way we spell it in Canada)

I celebrate with you. And that there are still brave Americans who choose to expose the truth over personal freedom and comfort. Ellsberg, Manning, Snowden and others.

We are not perfect up here, especially under our neo-con Prime Minister at present, but it has been disheartening to watch your nation not heeding your past Presidents warning; "the only thing we have to fear is fear itself" and turn xenophobic and choosing to dismantle your civil rights whose struggles and victories we up here included in our history lessons growing up.

But the aforementioned individuals, and the support they have received by many Americans, remind us that our good friends to the south still have courage to fight against tyranny, be it the previous British Empire, or the insidious creep of the Big Brother state.

[Uncle Joe]

65. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, MannyGoldstein.

[woo me with science]

67. Hear, hear! nt

[DLevine]

68. As am I. K&R. nt

[liberal_at_heart]

75. I too am glad we now know what we know. Whatever his intentions, the results are the same.

We now know more about what our government is doing and can fight to restore the 4th Amendment.

[Waiting For Everyman]

76. Happy 237th birthday of our Revolution!

We didn't win our Revolution with power or with numbers, but against all odds with heart and brains and a little luck at times. It could work for us again. Whatever else anyone might say about it, Edward Snowden's leaks were very fortunate for us. One person can make a difference. All of us make a difference, in our own way.

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[DeSwiss]

78. K&R

[WillyT]

80. Did You Catch This ???

DULink: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023168814

[MannyGoldstein]

85. Thanks for the link.

I posted there.

[boilerbabe]

82. lol damn you're gonna get the usual suspects braying at the moon now!

[nadinbrzezinski]

84. You might like this

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023171845

[ngjtk]

90. Hero for sure...

Edward exposed treason, he is a hero to every American weather they know it or not. If they get him all of America should decend upon the capital.

[fasttense]

91. Exactly right

Snowden is a hero. He is a man who could Not be bought, unlike our politicians and corporate elite. He exposed illegal spying on All Americans by a corporation with the blessing of our federal government.

Corporate power combined with governmental power, this is what we fought against in the Revolutionary War. We fought against the King combining his power with the East India Tea Company to control and manipulate America.

[Ian David]

114. Who do you think is ultimately responsible for these allegedly Treasonous acts? n/t

[stonecutter357]

101. Metadata does not belong to you.

All this ‎Libertarianism bull is giving me a headache,bay the way I will bet karl rove is behind all this.

[Fuddnik]

104. Take two aspirin and go to bed.

[Logical]

109. It does not belong to the NSA either. But they are taking it anyway! n-t

[kentuck]

107. Here is a cartoon that n2doc posted:

[Autumn]

110. Hero or scoundrel, it doesn't matter to me.

He brought it out into the open, for that I'm thankful.

[Harmony Blue]

119. Wonderfully stated.

[99Forever]

122. K&R

[sabrina 1]

126. Me too and all Whistle Blowers who risk everything to warn the people against

abuses such as these.

[allin99]

127. And i know he didn't risk his life for what i'm about to mention, but seeing...

what france did the President of another nation's plane really sealed the deal for me. I understand why the US was calling people saying snowden was on the plane, but to me it was painful to watch it unfold and it showed first hand how arrogant we as a nation (not just obama and the state department, heck bush prolly woulda just shot the plane down, lol, j/k) but it was ugly enough, i couldn't even enjoy my 4th of july, and usually i do. (cuz sorry, i'm just not buying we didn't know who was on the plane).

And i am also glad the discussion is on the table and that the nsa was forced to answer to the american people, and get busted lying.

and i'm glad the nyt times has to put articles about surveillance on their front page. Even if we all read it and think, great, extended surveillance, i feel safer now, at least the discussion is being had b/c it's the only way things change, or at very least are kept in check. a lot of other nsa tried to do something and failed. jmo.

[MannyGoldstein]

128. Agreed on all counts. nm