It's so, so simple. Just tell us it's bullshit.

[MannyGoldstein]

Our president is accused of orchestrating a series of extraordinary international events to force down the plane of a head of state, to search for a US whistleblower.

Why has the US government not denied that it did this?

A strong rebuttal, and a re-affirmation that the US will follow international law, would go a long way towards building confidence that our country is not simply the biggest bully in the playground.

The world is waiting.

[Bolo Boffin]

1. Why should the president demean himself to answer such insulting allegations?

You realize, of course, that this is exactly the same argument Birthers made for months wrt their allegations about Obama's birth certificate.

Why doesn't the President just deny that he and Larry Sinclair did coke and had sex together?

Why doesn't the President just deny he had Ambassador Stephens killed for whatever reason he would have had Stephens killed?

Why doesn't the President just deny he had Hugo Chavez poisoned?

[MannyGoldstein]

3. Well, he's denied all sorts of other stuff

From telling the IRS to target Tea Party groups to being born in Kenya, to... Well, everything else.

[Bolo Boffin]

11. If he denied it, would that be the end of it for you? n/t

[MannyGoldstein]

16. It would be an important piece of evidence. nm

[Bolo Boffin]

18. So, no, it's not that simple. n/t

[MannyGoldstein]

19. As I wrote, "would go a long way" nm

[Bolo Boffin]

23. But not as you wrote, "so so simple." n/t

[Spitfire of ATJ]

26. Ever listen to Phil Hendrie?

[geek tragedy]

39. No, you'd say he was lying. nt

[treestar]

129. Oh no! The denial itself would be parsed.

Or the fact he bothered to deny it used against him as showing how important he knows it is!

And he'd be called a liar.

[Arctic Dave]

6. Since when is proving your not a bully demeaning?

You would think he would want to be united not a divider.

[nashville_brook]

100. precisely -- most would jump at the chance to distance themselves from this fiasco

[morningfog]

17. You do not honestly believe the US played no role.

Do you? Do you seriously believe that?

[Bolo Boffin]

22. On the one hand, I have someone who has accused the US of poisoning Hugo Chavez.

On the other, I have someone saying he's not going to scramble jets to get Snowden. And jets have yet to be scrambled.

So since the President's denial would do jackshit to dissuade you or anyone else accusing the President of doing this, I'm happy to wait and let the facts come out before declaring one way or the other.

Right now I see a gigantic clusterfuck that has benefitted exactly one party: the Bolivian president. What am I always told by 9/11 truthers? Cui bono?

Well, cui fucking bono, morningfog?

[morningfog]

28. Obama would have been cui fucking bonoed had Snowden

been where they thought he was. Cui fucking bono. This isn't conspiracy shit. This is glaringly obvious. This also won't be kept cute. The French have apologized but thankfully Unasur is not going to let it get swept under a rug. We're a nation among nations, not above.

If Obama or State came out and denied involvement, I would take them at their word until something proved it wrong. Right now, the evidence points at the US and to deny it is laughable.

[Bolo Boffin]

37. "The French have apologized"

Because as soon as they learned it was Morales' plane, they granted the airspace request immediately.

Why didn't they know it was Morales' plane, morningfog? How is it possible a head of state is flying through Europe and France doesn't know it's his plane?

Is it America's job to tell France Morales is on the plane? Or is it Bolivia's job?

Cui fucking bono?

[Fumesucker]

87. No, when Hollande learned it was Morales plane he granted the airspace request

How often do you suppose the head of state of a major nation gets involved with decisions over which individual planes may fly in the airspace of his country?

Personally I think that's a vanishingly rare occurrence.

[Bolo Boffin]

88. The chain of events on how the French decision was made needs to be laid out.

But I can see Hollande being consulted on a decision about a plane thought to have Snowden on it. The information about Morales came after. So my point is still: why was it that the French didn't know Morales was on the plane until so late?

I'm still voting for "clusterfuck" on this incident. But Morales has questions to answer as well.

[Fumesucker]

91. Who thought Snowden was on the plane?

Where did that "information" come from and how did it get relayed to the French?

[Bolo Boffin]

159. That is one of the $64,000 questions.

We know the American ambassador called the Austrian officials, saying Snowden was on the plane, but that was also after it landed and the CF had been going on for a while.

[treestar]

130. everything is Obama's job, silly

He should have made Evo's flight plan for him!

[dionysus]

30. yes

[JDPriestly]

49. Do you read French, German or Spanish?

Because newspapers in all those languages accuse the US of basically forcing Morales plane to land in Vienna.

If you are just relying on the American media, you are not going to find out the truth. It's sad, but try Le Monde or Der Standard or one of the La Paz, Bolivia newspapers online.

I've posted so much information with translations from those languages. So as Katherina, and so have others. If DUers want to know the truth, the information is available. If people prefer to live in their dreams, they can seal their own fate.

[Bolo Boffin]

55. Had German way too long ago to matter anymore

They accuse the US based on what sources of information? Does it all go back to what Morales is saying?

[JDPriestly]

67. No. The French government has already offered a rather insufficient apology.

Last edited Fri Jul 5, 2013, 03:23 AM - Edit history (1)

There is utterly no reason for Morales to lie. Can you think of one? And all of UNASUR has backed him up and asked for explanations, for an apology and for the end of the surveillance.

Here is an article from the reliable Die Presse an Austrian newspaper. It quotes the head of the Democratic Socialist opposition party in Germany.

Wien/Ag. Der Datenhunger der US-Geheimdienste war gewaltig: Bis zu 60 Millionen deutsche Telefonverbindungen speicherten sie an Spitzentagen, ganz zu schweigen von der Internet-Überwachung. Der Chef der deutschen SPD, Sigmar Gabriel, fordert nun Ermittlungen gegen die zuständigen Geheimdienstchefs in den USA und Großbritannien (auch London führte systematisch Spähangriffe auf das EU-Partnerland durch). Die Regierung sollte zudem erwägen, dem Aufdecker der Spionageaffäre, Edward Snowden, die Aufnahme in ein Zeugenschutzprogramm anzubieten, verlangte Gabriel gegenüber Spiegel Online.

The hunger of the US intelligence services for data was enormous: It stored up to 60 million German telephone connections on peak days, not to mention internet surveillance. The head of the German SPD, Sigmar Gabriel, is now requesting talks (negotiations) with the responsible directors of intelligence in the US and Great Britain (London also conducted systematic spying attacks on its European Union partner). The government should weigh offering Edward Snowden, who exposed the spy affair, entry into the witness protection program, Gabriel requested through Speigel Online.

„Liebedienerei gegenüber US-Interessen“

Love servant of US interests.

Nach reihenweisen Absagen für seine Asylanträge dürfte Snowden noch immer im Transitbereich des Moskauer Flughafens Scheremetjewo festsitzen. In der bolivianischen Präsidentenmaschine war er jedenfalls – entgegen dem US-Verdacht – nicht. In einem diplomatischen Eklat war der Flieger zu einem Stopp in Wien gezwungen worden. Auch Paris verweigerte zunächst den Überflug, wofür sich Außenminister Laurent Fabius bei seinem Amtskollegen in La Paz nun telefonisch entschuldigte. Die Opposition in Paris verspottete die Regierung wegen ihrer „Liebedienerei gegenüber US-Interessen“ (Front-National-Chefin Marine Le Pen).

After repeated denials of his asylum requests, Snowden is believed to remain sitting in the transit area of Moscow's Scheremetjewo airport. At any rate and in spite of the suspicions of the US, he was not in the airplane of the Bolivian president. Causing a diplomatic crisis, the President's plane was forced to land in Vienna. Paris then refused the plane the right to fly over (France), an act for which Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius (of France) apologized on the phone to his diplomatic colleague in La Paz. The opposition party Front National head, Marine Le Pen in Paris criticized the (French) government about its "service of love with regard to US interests."

Über Lateinamerika fegt indes ein Sturm der Entrüstung: „Einige Europäer glauben noch immer, dass wir in der Epoche der Kolonisation leben und die Völker Amerikas ein Vasallendasein führen müssen“, ätzte etwa Ecuadors Präsident, Rafael Correa. Die Union Südamerikanische Nationen berief wegen der „Geiselnahme“ von Evo Morales ein Krisentreffen ein. Morales selbst entstieg nach der Odyssee Donnerstagfrüh selbstbewusst dem Flieger in La Paz. Der jubelnden Menge erklärte er: „Wir lassen uns nicht einschüchtern.“

A storm of indignation swept across Latin America: "Some Europeans still think that we live in the epoch of colonization and that the people of the Americas must be treated like vassals, complained Ecuador's President Rafael Correa. The Union of South American Nations called a crisis meeting because of the "kidnapping" of Evo Morales. Morales himself confidently got of his plane in La Paz after his odysee Thursday morning. The cheering crowd explained, "We did not let ourselves become intimidated."

("Die Presse", Print-Ausgabe, 05.07.2013)

http://diepresse.com/home/politik/aussenpolitik/1426724/SPDChef-Gabriel-bringt-Zeugenschutz-fuer-Snowden-ins-Spiel?direct=1416110&_vl_backlink=/home/index.do&selChannel=103

It's very late, and I am very tired, but that is a fairly close, sloppy translation so that you can know what is being said in other countries. The degrees of disgust and anger over this diplomatic fiasco vary. We are clearly no longer the kings of the world if we ever were.

This crisis will blow over, but it is, still, a blow to the reputation of our country. I'm glad that Snowden came forward, but the administration is, I fear making it worse by not coming forward with a very full explanation to the people of the world about what is going on. They should have come foward long, long ago.

[Bolo Boffin]

69. Insufficient unless that's what happened, you mean.

Then it would be an adequate one. It's hard to intend offense against a foreign president if you don't know he was on the flight. Whose responsibility was it to let the French know Morales was on the plane?

Utterly no reason at all? He seems to be sitting in a pretty sweet spot right now. It appears that being on a plane thought to have Snowden on it had absolutely no downside for him.

[Caretha]

111. You might have a valid point

if it weren't for International Flight Plan laws and standard operating procedures for flying across international borders.

This is not some willy-nilly thing - i.e.

President Morales to pilot: "Hey buddy, I'm tired of being in Russia, lets fly back to Bolivia today, how are the skies lookin'?"

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-flight-plan.htm\

A flight plan is a document which provides detailed information about a planned flight. The document is filed with aviation officials, and forwarded to officials at the plane's destinations or way points to ensure that they have the data in hand. Filing a flight plan is required by law in many cases, and it is also a good idea from a safety perspective, as it ensures that if a flight goes missing, someone will start looking for it.

Several pieces of information are included in a flight plan. The names of the captain, crew, and passengers are included, along with descriptions of any cargo which may be carried. The type of aircraft is also discussed, as is the type of flight, indicating whether the pilot will be flying with instruments, or under visual flight rules. The flight plan also details the departure and arrival points of the aircraft, the estimated route the plane will take, and the expected duration of the flight.

In addition to providing this basic data, a flight plan also usually details alternate airports which it will use in the event of an emergency. It may also specifically address concerns about controlled or restricted airspace, and other issues which may come up during the flight. The idea is to create a complete picture of what is going to occur on the flight, and to demonstrate that the crew have prepared for unexpected events.

From an air traffic control perspective, flight plans are very important, as they alert officials to the presence of planes in the sky. Using filed flight plan data, controllers can time the arrival and departure of planes, and send out specific information about the altitude and heading which various planes should follow to avoid collisions. Without flight plan information, air traffic controllers would find their jobs would be much more complicated than they already are.

Another concern is fuel consumption, because planes burn a lot of fuel, and running out of gas in the middle of the sky is not a desirable occurrence. Using information provided by the manufacturer of the aircraft, the person who files the flight plan can estimate how much fuel will be used, and whether or not it will be necessary to stop and refuel. Fuel allowances must also account for bad weather, which could increase fuel consumption, and in some regions, pilots are mandated to carry extra fuel so that they are prepared in the event of an unexpected event, which could vary from needing to hover over an airport to wait to land to losing fuel due to damage.

[JDPriestly]

117. No reason to think Morales was lying. And the entire event violated long established diplomatic

treaties and protocols. It's a real bad mark on our American diplomatic history.

[truedelphi]

80. Thank you for shining light onto the situation.

All this makes me wish I had least kept up with French in HS and college, but I have let it slip away.

[JDPriestly]

118. Just try reading some and listening to some on YouTube if you can find it.

It is still in your brain. You can relearn at least a little, and then there is Google translate although not entirely trustworthy.

Nowadays, we all need to read foreign languages because our national press is so bad unless you are interested in the daily routines and details of the lives of the Hollywood stars.

[marions ghost]

108. So has the US surveillance of Germany stopped?

"It stored up to 60 million German telephone connections on peak days, not to mention internet surveillance." (from the article)

Past tense--do we know for sure this surveillance was suddenly stopped?

Seems there would be ways to find out.

[JDPriestly]

116. The number is from the past because it refers to peak days.

[marions ghost]

143. What I'm asking is...

are we continuing to mine this data, or did we stop when it became public knowledge recently?

[JDPriestly]

182. Apparently some post-WWII treaty or agreement allows us to keep close watch over Germany.

That may be a campaign issue in the German elections this Fall, brought up by some of the minor parties at any rate.

WWII ended in 1945, more than 90 years ago. Germany is now a part of the EU. It has thriving industry and is located between Western and what used to be Eastern Europe. I'm sure we want to eavesdrop on Germans for many reasons, some having to do with security, others with the economy. Austria has been since WWII far more independent. I usually check the Austrian newspapers for a more objective view because Austria is a country with many political and economic cross-currents -- different viewpoints. I like viewpoints that are not commonplace. I don't have to agree with them, but they give me something to think about.

[marions ghost]

183. Snowden says we are in bed with the Germans

which makes their posturing against America look like it's just for show. What they are doing is similar to what American politicians are doing by way of damage control. So I get your point--that the current German government is not likely to address this effectively.

-------

"The (German) domestic intelligence chief has said he knew nothing of such widespread surveillance by the NSA. But German opposition parties - with an eye on September's federal election - insist that somebody in Merkel's office, where the German intelligence agencies are coordinated, must have known what was going on.

The government did not immediately respond to a request for comment on the Der Spiegel report, which follows a report last week in French daily Le Monde saying France also had an extensive surveillance programme.

Der Spiegel has reported that on an average day, the NSA monitored about 20 million German phone connections and 10 million internet data sets, rising to 60 million phone connections on busy days.

Germans are particularly sensitive about eavesdropping because of the intrusive surveillance in the communist German Democratic Republic (GDR) and during the Nazi era."

Article at
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/07/us-usa-security-germany-idUSBRE9660C020130707

[JDPriestly]

184. True. If you read and could translate any foreign languages, please e-mail me via DU.

[Scootaloo]

178. But remember; they're not Amurrken, so they're lying to make Amurrka look bad!

Furrners hate Amurrka.

[caseymoz]

70. uh, like motive?

Our country wanted Snowden, and I can't think of any others that did. He didn't blow the whistle on anybody else.

As for not identifying Morales' plane to the French, first off, I've never heard of that happening, especially not with three countries. No country takes a risk of mistakingly shooting down a head of State's plane. Second, why was the plane then searched in Austria, and did Austrian officials report that Snowden was not on board? Both Austrian and Bolivian authorities confirmed Snowden wasn't on the plane. As for what they didn't say, the didn't say there was no cocaine on board.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/04/us-usa-security-snowden-idUSBRE9610C520130704

Your denials are surreal. Stopping a train wreck of an international incident is too demeaning for our president. I haven't noted any other time he's been so touchy.

[Bolo Boffin]

71. From your link:

"But state aircraft, including Air Force One, which carries the U.S. president, must obtain clearance before they cross into foreign territory."

Whose responsibility is it to obtain this clearance, caseymoz? The country who owns the state aircraft is my guess. What's yours?

So how is it that France didn't know that was a Bolivian state aircraft? It was Bolivia's responsibility to get that clearance. Why didn't they?

[caseymoz]

74. Why are you evading my question?

Why did Austrian authorities then search for Snowden? Did they decide since this head of State with Diplomatic immunity just happened to be stopped for fueling that they were going to violate centuries of diplomatic treaties and protocol and search his plane, and both Austria and Bolivia agree they were searching for our favorite fugitive. There is no doubt about that.

Now, to answer your evasion (I won't call it a question or challenge), planes have a flight plan. Every plane that takes off from an airport has one. If it's supposed to cross over another country's airspace, this is arranged in advance. Except in an emergency, every country involved knows the flight plan, and they don't mess it up for a head of state. The clearance when they're in the air before a Head of State crosses over friendly airspace is usually a formality. Have you ever heard of this being messed up this way before?

But I'm just pissing in the wind with you. If you've ignored the reality of the search for Snowden in Austria, and if you're looking for loopholes in International procedures that have been done thousands of times, you're not interested in being honest.

A mess up by Bolivian Authorities might be believable for denial of crossing airspace, but not when followed by a grounding and a search for Snowden. If the latter hadn't happened, we not be having this discussion. So, don't bring up international protocol for crossing over airspace again. It's irrelevant, if that search hadn't occurred in Austria we would not be talking about this.

It's an evasion on your part, and if you're willing pull tricks like this to preserve your commitment to Obama, I'd say you're exactly where the Republicans were with George W. Bush in late 2005. That was a presidency everyone would like to forget, except the people trying to "rehabilitate" it.

If evasion and dishonesty are what you're resorting to keeping your faith, it doesn't bode well for President Obama.

[Bolo Boffin]

76. I abandon you to your contempt and your bad faith. n/t

[caseymoz]

78. Still evading . . .

Well, I was about to put you on ignore, too. And you know-- I've been saying this to a lot of people here recently-- we shouldn't be in the same political party.

[Bolo Boffin]

79. I didn't put you on ignore.

If you don't want to be in the Democratic party, there's the door.

[JDPriestly]

120. Morales stated that he did not let anyone on the plane and that it was never searched.

He said that the ambassador of Spain wanted to board it and Morales did not allow him to do so.

[bcbink]

103. thank you, n/t

[treestar]

131. Accusations can be made in any language

They have been made in English too.

Do you read Russian? They've probably been made in that too.

[MADem]

96. Who ALSO benefits from seeing the US accused in this fashion?

Hint--a certain drunken cowboy used to call him "Pootie Poot."

Pootie loves to stick a dirty finger in America's eye at any and every opportunity.

Thus, the Cui Bono? question comes up with another answer, besides a former unknown from a country most can't locate on a map, who has had his international profile and Q Score raised enormously as a result of this brouhaha....and its amazing how the Russian state-funded Russia Today network has most of the footage. Right place, right time? How fortuitous!

[reusrename]

135. How does getting stopped and frisked help Morales' esteem?

You have to explain that one to me.

Instead of being treated as a head of state he is treated like some inner-city youth and somehow you believe this is to his advantage.

That's some pretty twisted thinking you got going on there.

[Bolo Boffin]

136. It's always projection.

So inner-city youth deserve being stopped and frisked, and how dare they treat Morales like that? Is that what you're saying?

Or have I found the most tangential way to twist what you said in a silly attempt to discredit what you said, the same as you did to me?

[reusrename]

156. Why do you think these peoples' rights are not respected?

You seem to have some alternate theory of abuse of power.

[sabrina 1]

20. He could condemn the disrespect to a fellow democratically elected president. That would

be an appropriate thing to do. It was a very serious breach of diplomatic protocol and will have serious ramifications. So there would nothing wrong at all for the President to say how shocked he is at the treatment of a President and the insult to a sovereign nation. I imagine if it had happened to the President of France, say in Africa, he would issue such a statement. What is the difference?

[Bolo Boffin]

25. OK, so deny he did it (from Manny) and now condemn it (from you).

And that's it? You'd believe he had nothing to do with it then?

[sabrina 1]

45. He won't do it. HE may have had nothing to do with it.

Put it this way, if this had happened to a European Head of State, there would have been an official statement from the US Government condemning it.

As Correa said tonight, 'they are treating us like colonists'. Old habits die hard, but Latin America is now a force to be reckoned with, they are NOT colonists anymore, but our and Europe's racist foreign policies are still locked into the past.

Maybe this incident will demonstrate why it's way past time to understand that Latin America emerged from its past oppressive, generally US and European backed Dictatorships while we were busy colonizing the ME.

It's hard being an Empire, ask the Brits who can't seem to accept the fall of their own Empire and are now tagging along with ours. There was a reason why the FFs warned against getting involved in 'foreign adventures'. Empires never last long. One of the signs of the demise of an Empire, historically speaking, is the hiring of Mercenaries for their foreign adventures.

[JDPriestly]

44. A Bolivian newspaper claimed that Morales said it was a breach of an international agreement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_Convention_on_Diplomatic_Relations

In the 19th century, the Congress of Vienna reasserted the rights of diplomats; and they have been largely respected since then, as the European model has spread throughout the world. Currently, diplomatic relations, including diplomatic immunity, are governed internationally by the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations, which has been ratified by almost every country in the world.

In modern times, diplomatic immunity continues to provide a means, albeit imperfect, to safeguard diplomatic personnel from any animosity that might arise between nations. As one article put it: "So why do we agree to a system in which we're dependent on a foreign country's whim before we can prosecute a criminal inside our own borders? The practical answer is: because we depend on other countries to honor our own diplomats' immunity just as scrupulously as we honor theirs."[3]

The Diplomatic Relations Act of 1978 (22 U.S.C. § 254a et seq.) follows the principles introduced by the Vienna Conventions. The United States has had a tendency to be generous when granting diplomatic immunity to visiting diplomats, because a large number of U.S. diplomats work in host countries less protective of individual rights. If the United States were to punish a visiting diplomat without sufficient grounds, U.S. representatives in other countries could receive harsher treatment.

In the United States, if a person with immunity is alleged to have committed a crime or faces a civil lawsuit, the State Department asks the home country to waive immunity of the alleged offender so that the complaint can be moved to the courts. If immunity is not waived, prosecution cannot be undertaken. However, the State Department still has the discretion to ask the diplomat to withdraw from her or his duties. Often, the diplomat's visas are canceled; and the diplomat and her or his family may be barred from returning to the United States. Crimes committed by members of a diplomat's family can also result in dismissal.[4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomatic_immunity

We had absolutely no business doing what we did in asking countries to condition permitting Morales to land in their countries for refueling or to cross through their airspace on allowing a search of his plane. How would we feel if someone did that to our President? It is a violation of international law.

[sabrina 1]

50. Exactly, and that is why now, Europeans are rushing to apologize. Once those rules are violated,

no one is going to be safe. I don't know who is in charge of these matters anymore but they are clearly not fit for their jobs. They are endangering OUR OWN diplomats when they act like Rambo, ignorant of the rules of diplomacy and the reasons for those rules.

This is the second time morons created a diplomatic crisis regarding a Latin American country. And while we have short memories regarding these issues, the rest of the world does not.

A few morons in Britain were ready to storm the Ecuadoran Embassy when Assange sought refuge there also. It almost happened apparently, before wiser heads prevailed.

It seems morons have managed to get into positions of power in the Allied Nations and they need to be fired before they start a World War or get some of their own people killed by their stupidity.

Whoever was responsible for this should be fired instantly. But they probably won't be.

[JDPriestly]

52. Agreed.

[HardTimes99]

58. Nailed it (as usual :) - nt

[bemildred]

85. That is precisely the problem. nt

[leftstreet]

21. He'd have to be VERY certain no one in the CIA made calls

It's one thing when politicians and officials know they can deny-deny-deny within their own ranks, they're used to it.

But this is international, so the WH better hope they've got their ducks in a row

[sheshe2]

27. Bingo!

[kardonb]

41. wgy

doso many ignoramusus believe Evo Morales' silly accusations ? That little creep would do anything to spite the US .

[sibelian]

72. It was demeaning to respond to birthers because they were making crap up.

Not so clear cut now.

[nashville_brook]

98. and yet there was a clear response RE the birth certificate.

the insinuation the poster is making vis a vis birtherism is a giant burning straw man.

[Bolo Boffin]

104. Years after the birther BS went on and on.

And the day he released it, I can still remember the disappointment I saw on Twitter that he'd been pushed to that extreme.

He shouldn't have had to. The analogy stands.

[nashville_brook]

105. yes, and the fact that they kept on was their foul. your analogy is still quite weak...but worse,

it's meant to paint an international incident with the same brush you'd use to untangle the Orly Taitz rats nest. it's quite a rhetorical nadir.

[Bolo Boffin]

106. Once again, the line I am responding to from the OP

...orchestrating a series of extraordinary international events to force down the plane of a head of state...

That's 100% bullshit, on the order of birtherism.

[nashville_brook]

113. we get that -- you're way, waaaay off. use the birther smear all you want, it's lame.

this is not an imaginary accusation. it happened. it has to be dealt with.

[DirkGently]

114. Exactly. It's not a made-up narrative. Ugly false equivalency fail.

[Bolo Boffin]

134. The president orchestrated this whole elaborate series of events? That's not imaginary?

You keep thinking that all you want.

[sibelian]

177. He doesn't have to have orchestrated it

All he has to have done is set it in motion.

Anyway, as far as I'm concerned it pretty much doesn't matter if he himself didn't kick it all off. If the US is involved, he kinda has to say something...

[Bolo Boffin]

179. I am quoting the OP.

That is what I am responding to.

[sibelian]

181. OK, thanks for clarifying. nt.

[cali]

83. it's not remotely the same. this is an international incident that

actually happened- whatever it is that actually happened. Aside from that, the President DID firmly deny the birther shit and produced a birth certificate.

Your comparisons to this international incident being akin to the bc, Sinclair or Chavez, is utterly specious.

[Bolo Boffin]

84. "orchestrating a series of extraordinary international events to force down the plane..."

"orchestrating a series of extraordinary international events to force down the plane of a head of state."

100% Birther-rate bullshit.

[cali]

86. gee, did I say any such thing? No. but the U.S. has refused to

deny or confirm involvement in whatever happened, so they've already addressed it? Why not just deny it?

And no, it's just dumb as hell to compare this international incident which is blowing up in the President's face, to the birther crap.

Many SA countries and their populations are angry and their anger is it at the U.S. as well as European countries. It's called an international incident and it can't be ignored either by state or by the administration.

Hate to break this to you, but they won't ignore it.

[Bolo Boffin]

89. The OP did. I'll wait while you go read it and see what I'm responding to. n/t

[nashville_brook]

97. why would the president allow the US to be in the position of NEEDING to explain?

this is on the US at this point. looks like we screwed up. if we had nothing to do with it, then an official statement saying so should be an easy thing.

[galileoreloaded]

125. cause he probably did it or ordered it done?

[treestar]

128. He could spend all day denying these lunatic bullshit charges

And then we'd hear about how he never gets anything done!

[rhett o rick]

154. The President works for us. He is not God. He is not King. He is responsible to us.

Your post is absurd. Your idolic worship is childish.

[Bolo Boffin]

155. A birther couldn't have said it any better. n/t

[rhett o rick]

157. You have nothing but name calling. Shame. nm

[Bolo Boffin]

158. From your post: "Your post is absurd. Your idolic worship is childish."

Shame.

[rhett o rick]

162. do you understand the difference? "your post is absurd", vs. you are a birther. Do you think

I am a birther?

Argue issues dont resort to name calling.

[Bolo Boffin]

164. I never said you were a birther, rhett o rick.

Which is why you couldn't put quotation marks around that statement.

[rhett o rick]

165. You have nothing but name calling. Low down name calling. Plez go away and pester someone

else.

[Bolo Boffin]

166. You responded to me.

You are the one that stepped up to me. You go away.

[Arctic Dave]

2. If Obama has nothing to hide why is not being forthcoming.

But, he hasn't been exactly upfront with his true agenda.

[KittyWampus]

4. Manny, have you stopped beating your wife?

[MannyGoldstein]

7. Yes, a few weeks ago.

Why is that relevant?

[Spitfire of ATJ]

29. Because she showed up over here....

You think YOU had a hard time getting her to leave?

[dionysus]

34. you need to try harder manny.

bless your little heart for trying so hard. you do try so hard you know.

[Th1onein]

64. Yes, he does try harder. And for what?

If Obama came out tomorrow and admitted he had that plane stopped, you guys would start in with the "So what, it's LEGAL!" And, "Morales accused the US of poisoning Chavez!" Ad nauseum.

I really don't know why anyone bothers.

[ProSense]

5. Because

Our president is accused of orchestrating a series of extraordinary international events to force down the plane of a head of state, to search for a US whistleblower.

Why has the US government not denied that it did this?

A strong rebuttal, and a re-affirmation that the US will follow international law, would go a long way towards building confidence that our country is not simply the biggest bully in the playground.

The world is waiting.

1) The President isn't "accused of orchestrating a series of extraordinary international events to force down the plane of a head of state."

2) You already believe it's true.

3) There is no "international law" that governs a country closing its airspace. Protocols are in place, but those are not laws.

4) The world isn't waiting.

[Arctic Dave]

9. So he is a bully.

Just like in everyday life, its not it illegal. It just makes the bully look like a douche.

[ProSense]

10. "It just makes the bully look like a douche."

Evidently, you believe he's a "bully" and a "douche."

The hyperbole is getting thick.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023163029

[Arctic Dave]

13. Ducks do quack.

So it's been told.

[JDPriestly]

51. The international law requires countries to respect the immunity of the heads of state among others

of other countries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_Convention_on_Diplomatic_Relations

Further, Katherina and I and Divernon among others have posted excerpts from foreign newspapers including French papers, Austrian papers and Bolivian papers stating the facts.

Obama goofed big time. You know I have been a supporter of Obama in many things, tut on this one either he or someone in his administration -- in Vienna, apparently the ambassador, tried to get Morales to permit the inspection of his claim and a search for Snowden. Morales stated he did not permit it.

[Segami]

8. "..We Can Neither Confirm Nor Deny The Existence Or NonExistence Of Records.."

"..We Can Neither Confirm Nor Deny The Existence Or NonExistence Of Records.." "..We Can Neither Confirm Nor Deny The Existence Or NonExistence Of Records.." "..We Can Neither Confirm Nor Deny The Existence Or NonExistence Of Records.." "..We Can Neither Confirm Nor Deny The Existence Or NonExistence Of Records.." "..We Can Neither Confirm Nor Deny The Existence Or NonExistence Of Records.." "..We Can Neither Confirm Nor Deny The Existence Or NonExistence Of Records.." "..We Can Neither Confirm Nor Deny The Existence Or NonExistence Of Records.." "..We Can Neither Confirm Nor Deny The Existence Or NonExistence Of Records.." "..We Can Neither Confirm Nor Deny The Existence Or NonExistence Of Records.." "..We Can Neither Confirm Nor Deny The Existence Or NonExistence Of Records.." "..We Can Neither Confirm Nor Deny The Existence Or NonExistence Of Records.." "..We Can Neither Confirm Nor Deny The Existence Or NonExistence Of Records.." "..We Can Neither Confirm Nor Deny The Existence Or NonExistence Of Records.." "..We Can Neither Confirm Nor Deny The Existence Or NonExistence Of Records.." "..We Can Neither Confirm Nor Deny The Existence Or NonExistence Of Records.." "..We Can Neither Confirm Nor Deny The Existence Or NonExistence Of Records.." "..We Can Neither Confirm Nor Deny The Existence Or NonExistence Of Records.." "..We Can Neither Confirm Nor Deny The Existence Or NonExistence Of Records.." "..We Can Neither Confirm Nor Deny The Existence Or NonExistence Of Records.." "..We Can Neither Confirm Nor Deny The Existence Or NonExistence Of Records.." "..We Can Neither Confirm Nor Deny The Existence Or NonExistence Of Records.." "..We Can Neither Confirm Nor Deny The Existence Or NonExistence Of Records.." "..We Can Neither Confirm Nor Deny The Existence Or NonExistence Of Records.." "..We Can Neither Confirm Nor Deny The Existence Or NonExistence Of Records.." "..We Can Neither Confirm Nor Deny The Existence Or NonExistence Of Records.." "..We Can Neither Confirm Nor Deny The Existence Or NonExistence Of Records.." "..We Can Neither Confirm Nor Deny The Existence Or NonExistence Of Records.." "..We Can Neither Confirm Nor Deny The Existence Or NonExistence Of Records.." "..We Can Neither Confirm Nor Deny The Existence Or NonExistence Of Records.." "..We Can Neither Confirm Nor Deny The Existence Or NonExistence Of Records.." "..We Can Neither Confirm Nor Deny The Existence Or NonExistence Of Records.." "..We Can Neither Confirm Nor Deny The Existence Or NonExistence Of Records.." "..We Can Neither Confirm Nor Deny The Existence Or NonExistence Of Records.." "..We Can Neither Confirm Nor Deny The Existence Or NonExistence Of Records.." "..We Can Neither Confirm Nor Deny The Existence Or NonExistence Of Records.." "..We Can Neither Confirm Nor Deny The Existence Or NonExistence Of Records.." "..We Can Neither Confirm Nor Deny The Existence Or NonExistence Of Records.." "..We Can Neither Confirm Nor Deny The Existence Or NonExistence Of Records.." "..We Can Neither Confirm Nor Deny The Existence Or NonExistence Of Records.."

[Cleita]

12. Maybe he's not denying it because it's true.

We don't have the best record in dealing with world leaders we don't like.

[sheshe2]

48. "We don't have the best record in dealing with world leaders we don't like."

It's in print. You do not like our American President. President Obama.

[Cleita]

144. He's not the President I would have liked best, a real Democrat who works for

the unions and the working class but that doesn't mean I don't like him. I don't like the Monroe Doctrine which is how all Presidents including Obama deal with other nations in the Americas.

[truedelphi]

139. The political leaders, the media spokespeople, party loyalists,

Any of those who feel they have to shut TFU the statements of those of us who won't believe claptrap, all of those people remind me of this quote:

[font color=red][h2]
"The further a society drifts from Truth, the more it will hate those who speak it." [/font color=red][/h2]George Orwell

[BenzoDia]

14. If you speak up in some situations, then your silence in others is telling.

[HooptieWagon]

15. Or he could apologize for being an arrogant douche...

but they usually don't apologize.

[geek tragedy]

40. Why should he grovel for people who hate him?

The people calling him an 'arrogant douche' will hate him regardless of what he says, so they'll just have to pour some more.

[HooptieWagon]

54. Uh, maybe because he made a collassal fuck up....

based on false information, and an apology is in order to restore trust?

[geek tragedy]

57. Haters are never gonna trust him.

Moreover, your proof that Obama himself made this call is . . . non-existent. You just assume the worst, because it feels good to assume the worst about him.

Sorry, you'll have to stand next to the Teahadists in the "people who despise Obama and expect a personal apology from him" line.

[HooptieWagon]

60. So you think the US Ambassador to Austria acted unilaterally,

without authorization, in demanding the plane be inspected? Wow, powerful koolaid you're drinking...

[geek tragedy]

62. This has been confirmed or just reported on a random

website?

[HooptieWagon]

63. Austrian govt said so. It was reported.

US govt admitted "contacting" the countries involved. And Morales claimed the countries govts told him privately they acted at the request of the CIA, but that isn't confirmed. So if you have the State Dept and CIA involved, either we have a rougue govt with no one in charge, or the agencies were acting under Obama's orders. You decide.

[Democracyinkind]

73. Just sayin'....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023170429

[truedelphi]

81. So let me get this straight - in your world, a person doesn't have to

Act correctly if or because some people hate that person some of the time (or even all of the time.)

Glad that Lincoln didn't think that way, or FDR, or Kennedy. (Kennedy was so hated that school kids in TX cheered when it was announced that he had been killed.)

[geek tragedy]

110. I am saying that people who hate the US

and/or its President aren't relevant to determining what the right thing to do. Such people are rightfully ignored.

[truedelphi]

138. And Orwell's words live on, and he was saying:

"The further a society drifts from Truth, the more it will hate those who speak it." George Orwell

[BeyondGeography]

24. John Kerry said "backyard," and now half of DU thinks he's just another gringo imperialist

So what difference does it make what the evil authoritarians say?

[ProSense]

32. No one is safe.

Greenwald:

Defending the Obama administration, Paul Krugman pronounced that “the NSA stuff is a policy dispute, not the kind of scandal the right wing wants.” Really? In what conceivable sense is this not a serious scandal? If you, as an American citizen, let alone a journalist, don’t find it deeply objectionable when top national security officials systematically mislead your representatives in Congress about how the government is spying on you, and repeatedly lie publicly about resulting political controversies over that spying, what is objectionable? If having the NSA engage in secret, indiscriminate domestic spying that warps if not outright violates legal limits isn’t a “scandal”, then what is?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jul/03/clapper-lying-snowden-eu-bolivia

Here is Krugman's post: http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/06/28/whitewater-down

[BeyondGeography]

36. Those comments are fun

as in, down goes Krugman:

Sorry, I used to be a Krugman fan, just like I used to be an Ed Shultz fan. Clearly, they are both Obama/Democratic sycophants.

[MjolnirTime]

31. You get nothing.

[sheshe2]

33. Manny, Hi sheshe2 here.

It's so simple. Your remarks are shameful. Boston weeps.

[MannyGoldstein]

123. Which remark(s) in particular?

Thanks in advance.

[sheshe2]

152. Manny, you asked a question~

that you didn't really want an answer to. You already had your answer. Your mind was set.

What I find so sad is that so many on this board are accusing , what's the term, oh yes Obamabots, of bending to authority. We are blind and to stupid to know our own minds. We have no clue what is good for our nation.

It's the same thing they accused Boston of. We were blind people that bent to the Authoritarian view of our state government. We were herded like sheep to slaughter, we were blind. They were wrong then and they are wrong now.

The obsession to ridicule this country and the hate for our President is apparent.

If issues were so important, why did I not see some of the posters rec the threads that I posted on Women's issues today. They were hard to miss. I cannot believe that the war that is being waged against women by the GOP does not concern everyone.

So Manny, I mean you no disrespect. We both love Boston. I know that for a fact. We are and will always be Boston Strong forever.

sheshe2

[DeSwiss]

35. But you know you won't hear that.

- Because our country is the biggest bully in the playground.

K&R

[Spitfire of ATJ]

38. Don't you know,...

...when the government denies your claim that you can appeal their decision?

I think you even get six weeks to do it too.

[CakeGrrl]

42. Yeah, right. And you'll call the denial bullshit. -nt

[kristopher]

43. Is it true you are still beating your wife and kicking your dog?

We've heard the allegations and it would go a long way if you would just come out and say if it is true or not. We promise you that your confirmation will be accepted as gospel truth, but regret that the expected denial can only be viewed as confirmation of an attempt to cover up your despicable behavior.

[Hekate]

68. Bingo

I should have read all the way through before posting the exact sentiments re wife-beating. GMTA

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

46. The bully pulpit is now the BULLY's pulpit.

[HooptieWagon]

61. Yep.

Who saw this coming 4 years ago? I confess I didn't think Obama would be this out of control. Its very disappointing.

[treestar]

132. Wasn't that what is always was?

[Cali_Democrat]

47. Sorry, Manny but you know damn well if the White House denied it, people would call them liars

The same people demanding the White House deny involvement would be the first ones to call the President a liar.

There's really no point even commenting on what happened. The White House and State Department have other things to worry about.

[randome]

93. Exactly.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[sheshe2]

53. You are right on one thing here Manny.

That this is all Bullshit, simply put.

You put this OP out to flame the fires, when in fact you would never believe what anyone said. You know that and we know that.

Boston weeps.

[Nanjing to Seoul]

56. Our Government has:

1: Lied to get us into the Cold War
2: Lied to get us into Viet Nam
3: Worked to overthrow democratically elected regimes because they didn't like the result
4: Lied to get us into Grenada
5: Lied about Iran-Contra
6: Lied about Panama
7: Lied about Gulf War #1 (liberating Kuwait = getting more oil)
8: Lied about the effects of NAFTA and other free trade agreements
9: Denied rights to people based on sexual orientation, gender, ethnicity and rac
10: Lied about Afganistan
11: Lied about torture
12: Lied to get us into Iraq again
13: Bullies nations into adopting our way of doing things (international flight, drug policies)
14: Lied to its people about domestic spying
15: Lied about Gitmo closing
16: Lied about international spying
17: Violated national soverignity using drones
18: Uses its police force to trample on rights and shoot/beat/intimidate citizens
19: Denies voting rights, restricts voting rights.
20: Denies race relations are still a problem, while admonishing other countries on human rights.

US Government: Hypocrites. And the world now knows it.

Just because the President has a "D" after his name does not make him perfect, infallible or immune to critical analysis. When he is right, he deserves praise. When he is wrong, he deserves to be told. I will not drink anyone's kool aid.

[truedelphi]

82. + 1. n/t

[WatermelonRat]

137. "The government" is not a single immortal entity

It's a human institution made up of people. Good people, bad people, savvy people, incompetent people, naive people, reckless people, cautious people, and so on. It's not a single malevolent will throughout history.

The list you've made is overly simplistic to the point of being meaningless. An equivalent could have been made about any country in the world, as it conflates predictions, misunderstandings, unwise assumptions, and false beliefs with calculated lies. In the examples where intentional deception did occur, you expand the small circles of individuals behind it into "the government" which was by and large a victim of the lie as much as everyone else.

Furthermore, I'd very much like to hear about the lie that "got us into the cold war". Here I thought it was a complex situation caused by mutual distrust amid the post-WWII chaos, but nope, apparently it was all a scheme by that dastardly American Government!

[Nanjing to Seoul]

153. Joe McCarthy. The MIC couldn't use Fascism as a reason to inflate its profits

So it went back to the same thing it used in the 1920s with the Palmer Raids. . .Communist.

It was a trumped up fear of a political and economic theory. And the fear that it would overtake the US, turn us into gulags for not doing things the socialist way and "ruin our way of life." Sound familiar? "Islamists will overtake us and ruin our way of life, force sharia law on us and make us muslims."

No, the distrust has a small part to do with it. Nothing in the 1940s and 1950s could pass Congress in the way of spending without the word defense added to it. The Pell Grants, Interstate Highways, Safford Student Loans. . .all with the word defense. The lie was the "Communists were going to destroy us." THAT WAS THE LIE of the Cold War!

McCarthy and Nixon did their best to make the lie the truth, as even today, people think it was "distrust." No. . .it was a lie!

As for the rest of your missive. Crap flows down hill. The leader of the US Government instruct their underlings to do things that are against our way of life (domestic spying) and they do it claiming "just doing my job" and "just following orders." IF someone whistle blows (Snowden, Manning), they are destroyed.

Other countries? The US Government sells itself as being above that and taking the high moral ground. Behind the scenes, they are just as deceptive and corrupt and power hungry as the governments of the most brutal, despotic regimes. Look how the US and State government order their LEOs to treat dissenters like the Occupy movement and ANSWER (even though ANSWER is nuts, they are non-violent).

[WatermelonRat]

171. Again, overly simplistic

People like Nixon and McCarthy certainly played their part in inflaming tensions, but they certainly didn't engineer the whole thing. The foundations of the Cold War were well underway before either of them reached significant political power.

[Nanjing to Seoul]

172. Oh I'm done talking to you. A history PhD Candidate is getting a lecture.

Give me a break.

[chervilant]

161. You might be interested in

Walter LaFeber's "The American Age." You'll gain a clear perspective of US foreign policy during our fledgling nation's brief tenure on the international scene.

[Phlem]

59. hang in there Manny

just a bunch of dim bulbs stretching their arses.



-p

[Hekate]

65. First, they would want to see his birth cert. Then they would want to know when he stopped beating

... his wife. And of course they'll want to hash over Benghazi again.

You see where I'm going with this?

The people who believe that Obama pushed other nations around will not believe his denial. Then the new FOX headlines would be, "Obama says he didn't urge other nations to ground the Bolivian president. >wink<>wink<"

As regards any kind of statement (and there will be one eventually) he is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.

The object is to cripple the POTUS in his last term, not get at the truth.

[bigtree]

66. you first

. . . answer wild, unsubstantiated accusations? Where does it end?

Funny how you completely strip the presidency of any presumption of non-involvement here. When the fuck did this become the standard of accountability? Anything someone's loopy mind can conjure has to be answered to by the President of the United States? Nonsense!

I hear all the time that folks think he should be some kind of servant to every sycophant's whim and wish. That's not what I expect from the presidency. I'd fully expect and insist he stand firm against such a scandalmongering and grandstanding demand that he prove a negative and refuse to spend his time fending off every nonsense charge you or any other constant critic can dream up.

[Number23]

75. Didn't you post that you were taking a break or something?

[JoePhilly]

90. Sure, but he also predicted the death of

Social security ... So you might want to take manny with a few grains of salt.

[Summer Hathaway]

77. Just keep in mind

that for the simple-minded, everything is simple.

[great white snark]

112. Now you did it, Manny will post ten OP's about being called a simpleton.

Which is ok if he gives the "racist" fallacy a rest.

[MannyGoldstein]

121. I only do that for the insane stuff

Calling me "simple-minded" is not without justification...

[dawg]

119. What a wonderfully "uncomplicated" way of stating your opinion.

Not "complex" or "nuanced" at all. Right to the point, actually.

[JoeyT]

92. At this point everyone pretty much knows it's true.

If it weren't he'd have demanded the resignation of some innocent person.

That's how you can tell if a scandal is a fake one or not. Fake scandals they choose a scapegoat(Van Jones, Acorn, Sherrod), real scandals they close ranks.

[DirkGently]

115. Ouch. Painfully accurate. N/t

[brooklynite]

94. Observing your sig...

...How could you support a candidate who's remained silent on so big a "scandal"?

[MannyGoldstein]

124. Yet.

Given that she was one of only four Senators to vote against Obama's banker-pick for US Trade Representative (to negotiate the hypersecret PTT), I think she's doing GREAT.

[treestar]

133. good one brooklynite!

[bowens43]

95. Doesn't matter what he says at this point, he lacks credibility.

[NCTraveler]

99. I think the administration has lost.....

I think the administration has lost trust not only here at home, but also internationally. Any statement they make on this will not be met with open arms. Really wouldn't matter what they say or how they say it. When someone tries to please everyone, they end up alienating everyone. That seems to be the point the administration has gotten itself to. No statement made toward the accusations would appease people.

[nashville_brook]

101. i wonder if this would have happened with Hillary still in the Sec of State position

seems to be some pretty awful groupthink going on in that "team of rivals" these days.

[Buzz Clik]

102. -1

Manny sinks lower still.

[MannyGoldstein]

140. What, specifically, is the problem?

Thanks in advance.

[Buzz Clik]

141. Is the world always waiting for denials on issues that may or may not have direct US involvement?

Or just the concern trolls at DU?

[MannyGoldstein]

142. Do you realize that South America's leaders had an emergency meeting yesterday

Just to deal with this?

http://en.mercopress.com/2013/07/04/unasur-special-meeting-to-discuss-the-diversion-of-bolivian-president-evo-morales-plane-in-europe

Seems like more than a trifling concern troll thing.

[Buzz Clik]

145. And do you realize that this "crisis" for all appearances is 100% contrived?

As usual, those at DU who respond quickly and strongly are full of crap.

[MannyGoldstein]

146. No, I don't.

FYI, I knew from the start that Benghazi and IRS-Gate were fully fake from the start

[Buzz Clik]

147. Well, Manny, let's be totally honest:

You intentionally take outrageous positions to generate crazed responses. You've said that. I have no problem obliging. In this case, you are not on stride with all the facts.

[MannyGoldstein]

148. I said that?

Link please?

[tridim]

167. YOU, want a freaking link?

Bwhahahaha

Manny, you're wrong about EVERYTHING and I know you know it. Deal with it.

[MannyGoldstein]

168. Link or slink

I'm guessing that your nature is to slink, but let's see.

[tridim]

169. Link. DERPster.

[MannyGoldstein]

170. I don't see a link... show us what you got.

Or prove to everyone that you got nothing.

[tridim]

107. I prefer my President to deal in reality and ignore tin-foil libertarian fantasyland.

I'm very glad our President is nothing like you.

[morningfog]

163. France denied airspace, Portugal denied landing, Spain and Austria have said they were told Snowden

was on the plan and to act straight away.

This isn't tin-foil, these are facts. Someone spread the word that Snowden was on that plane, and that is why the countries reacted the way they did.

[greytdemocrat]

109. Probably a Tee Time Issue..

TTI

[n2doc]

122. But No Drama Obama doesn't do that sort of stuff

[Zorra]

126. The most effective way of telling us it's bullshit in weaselspeak is still being debated. nt

[treestar]

127. Medieval

I make an accusation, and you have to say something about it, or you are guilty.

Fallacious and wrong.

[indepat]

149. Some might have concluded the US has a "drone-happy" mentality by which

the US is justified in hunting down and possibly wasting anyone, any where, for any reason, with no explanations or apologies to anyone. Anyone who might think so just doesn't realize the US always follows requisite protocols.

[arely staircase]

150. the phrase "plausible deniability" is made for such events

nt

[tavalon]

160. What, you're not used to this dying empire doing what all dying empires do?

You know it's bullshit, I know it's bullshit. Most know. They aren't going to tell us. We all know that fairly well, too. Though having Obama speak to the modest incursion into our privacy surprised me. I just assumed they wouldn't confirm anything we already knew.

[ProSense]

173. FYI:

France: The Deputy Chief of Staff to Prime Minister Ayrault made the Morales Airspace decision
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023188760

[MannyGoldstein]

174. Forgive me for being dense, but

seems like:

- Prime Minister got info that Snowden was on board, presumably from the US
- Prime Minister denied overflight
- President eventually reversed PM's decision

Is there a greater truth here that I'm not getting?

[Rex]

175. Impossible, that would end the record breaking chant of

USA USA USA! WE are wrong. As a collective unit, the feds don't make mistakes. I'm not calling it denial, just that we don't error on any side.

[99th_Monkey]

176. The US gov't will neither confirm nor deny it's covert abuses of the rule of law.

The WH/NSA/CIA just keep claiming "States Secrets" in courts. and many judges who should know better,
have been allowing this charade to continue; and in so doing, giving our shadow Overlords a complete pass,
in terms of pretty much total control over all "law" so-called, and the flow of information to the citizenry; an
unwarranted and flagrantly unconstitutional act imho.

[Nye Bevan]

180. You really expect President Obama to weigh in on every crackpot theory involving the US?

I say he should stay out of these squabbles,

[morningfog]

185. But, this one had the US ambassador in Austria making one call.

Also, Spain admitted that "they" told them Snowden was on the plane and Spain had to act "straight away."

France apologized. State admitted to being in contact with European naitons, but State and those nations all gave the "can't confirm or deny" US involvment. This is not a crack pot theory.

President Obama doesn't have to say a thing. But, when State is directly asked if they were involved and they give the refusal to deny answer, it will be assumed they were involved. If they weren't, State could deny and be done.