Thomas Paine had more influence in the birth of this nation than Jesus Christ

[Major Nikon]

I get a kick out of dickheads like Santorum who want to try to pretend our country, the Declaration of Independence, and the Constitution were based on Judeo-Christian ideas. Even Gingrich, who claims to be a historian does this. Gingrich of all people should know better which makes him even more sanctimonious than Santorum. These people simply pretend the Age of Enlightenment didn't happen even though this school of thought is what gave us and the French their respective revolutions. The truly sad part is the Age of Enlightenment barely gets a footnote in public school history books. The reason is because it flies in the face of Christianity. The Age of Enlightenment was all about throwing off the yoke of organized religion. Just today, Santorum invoked this phrase from the Declaration of Independence, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

When Thomas Jefferson wrote those words, his idea of the "Creator" was very far removed from the Judeo-Christian god of fire and brimstone. His words came from the idea that god is not some entity that deserves worship and guides us. The founding fathers saw Christianity as a tool of tyrants who hoard power, and that's exactly what it was and still is. The idea that your rights are endowed by the "Creator" means that no man can interpret some religious tome and tell you what your rights are and aren't. The idea wasn't anti-religion, but it very much was anti-organized religion. The idea was that reason and not revelation should be our guiding force and the basis of all of our rights.

So when these dickheads try to invoke the words of the founding fathers to support their theocracy, not only are they wrong, they couldn't be more wrong. They are trying to implement exactly what our founding fathers were trying to get away from. If you want to know the basis and ideas our country was founded upon, don't read the bible, read the Age of Reason.

http://www.amazon.com/Writings-Thomas-Paine-1794-1796-ebook/dp/B004TOX2I0

[handmade34]

1. thanks for the link

just downloaded it to read again...

[former9thward]

2. You made up almost everything in the OP

Yes, Paine was a deist but he was about the only one. When he died only 6 people went to his funeral because he was held in such contempt by the American people at the time.

"Lambert (2003) has examined the religious affiliations and beliefs of the Founders. Of the 55 delegates to the 1787 Constitutional Convention, 49 were Protestants, and three were Roman Catholics (C. Carroll, D. Carroll, and Fitzsimons). Among the Protestant delegates to the Constitutional Convention, 28 were Church of England (or Episcopalian, after the American Revolutionary War was won), eight were Presbyterians, seven were Congregationalists, two were Lutherans, two were Dutch Reformed, and two were Methodists.

A few prominent Founding Fathers were anti-clerical Christians, such as Thomas Jefferson (who created the so-called "Jefferson Bible&quot and Benjamin Franklin. A few others (most notably Thomas Paine) were deists, or at least held beliefs very similar to those of deists. "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founding_Fathers_of_the_United_States

[white_wolf]

3. Jefferson and Franklin were both deists.

Here is a quote from Franklin:

""Some books against Deism fell into my hands; they were said to be the substance of sermons preached at Boyle's lectures. It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist. My arguments perverted some others, particularly Collins and Ralph; but each of them having afterwards wrong'd me greatly without the least compunction, and recollecting Keith's conduct towards me (who was another freethinker) and my own towards Vernon and Miss Read, which at times gave me great trouble, I began to suspect that this doctrine, tho' it might be true, was not very useful."

Jefferson was certainly a deist. His Bible removed all the supernatural elements from it and believed Jesus was merely a great moral thinker. I doubt any Christian church today accepts that view.

Finally, I'll quote from the Treaty of Tripoli which was signed by President John Adams: "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion..."

[lunasun]

7. There was no public outcry after Adams said that either in1796

http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/buckner_tripoli.html


"It was, in other words, quite well accepted, only a few years after first the Constitution and then the First Amendment were ratified, that "the Government of the United States of America was not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."

[hobbit709]

12. Not only did Adams read it aloud to the Senate, it was UNANIMOUSLY approved.

Last edited Mon Feb 20, 2012, 11:57 AM - Edit history (1)

[former9thward]

14. Of course it was not founded on the Christian religion.

That is why we have that part in the Constitution about the government not be allowed to establish a state religion. But that does not mean it was anti-religion. You use the usual tactic of atheists who want to project your views on the founders. First you pick and choose who you designate as a 'founder' Apparently in these debates Jefferson and Franklin were the only founders. Who knew? Then you cherry pick quotes here and there showing they were not conventional Christians in the modern sense.

The fact is historians who don't have an agenda to push recognize the great majority of the founders were religious and embraced some form of Christianity. When Washington started the tradition of swearing the oath of office he used a Bible not a copy of the Age of Reason.

[Major Nikon]

16. What exactly was made up, pray tell?

I don't mind someone calling me a liar, but if you're going to do so the polite thing to do would be to identify exactly where you think I lied and present your argument for it. Instead you haven't offered anything that contradicts what I wrote.

From your own link...

American historian Richard B. Morris in 1973 identified the following seven figures as the key Founding Fathers: John Adams, Benjamin Franklin, Alexander Hamilton, John Jay, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, and George Washington.

Now, let's look at those seven.

John Adams was a Unitarian who rejected Christianity. He famously wrote the following phrase in the Treaty with Tripoli...
"As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion..."

Benjamin Franklin was a freethinker and a deist.

Alexander Hamilton rejected Christianity for almost all of his adult life, almost never attended church even though his wife was quite devout, and frequently expressed sympathy for freethought in his writings.

John Jay what a Protestant who definitely held the strongest Christian views of the seven mentioned.

Thomas Jefferson identified himself as a Unitarian who rejected the notion of Jesus as god. He was most certainly a freethinker. His personal beliefs aligned very closely with deism although he didn't usually identify himself as such. His critics accused him of being an atheist.

James Madison attended Protestant church, but was a freethinker who wrote frequently about the tyranny of the Jeudo-Christian establishment.

George Washington attended Protestant church infrequently and never identified himself as a Christian. He guarded his personal beliefs very closely and was indifferent to organized religion in his writings and acts.

So out of the seven key founding fathers, which had more influence in founding this country than all the rest combined, you only have one that was an orthodox Christian. The rest were either freethinkers or supported freethought.

[former9thward]

17. Again you use the tactic of picking and choosing the founders.

I provided a link which showed the religious beliefs of the constitutional convention. Almost all were Christians. But they don't count as founders because of that.

According to historians Washington attended church services 16-20 times a year before becoming President and sometimes 3 times a day while President. He also started the tradition of swearing the oath to the Constitution on a Bible -- not the Age of Reason. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Washington_and_religion

Your quote from Adams is meaningless. Of course the Constitution is not "based on the Christian religion". That is why the first amendment has the section prohibiting the establishment of a state religion. But that does not mean it was opposed to to religion which is the mistaken leap of logic you take with that quote.

When you say the Age of Reason was more important than Christianity as a basis of belief for the founders, yes that is made up. No historian of the period agrees with you.

Washington: "It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible" September 17, 1796. http://www.ushistory.org/valleyforge/youasked/060.htm

I think Paine was a fine revolutionary but at the end he was hated by everyone for his religious beliefes. No burial yard in the U.S. would accept his body and eventually his bones ended up in Paris (before eventually disappearing).

[Major Nikon]

18. Your own link identified seven key founding fathers

Those seven unquestionably had more influence on the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution than all the others combined. All the rest had their roles to play, but the key seven were the most instrumental in writing the documents our country was founded upon. You can pretend otherwise if you wish, but that does not make it so, and no, reputable historians do not agree with you on this point.

The Age of Reason was written well after 1776. It wasn't the reference the founding fathers used, but it does explain very well the basis of freethought and very well explains the religious basis of most of the founding fathers that actually wrote the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution that Christian historical revisionists like to reference.

You keep repeating that Washington swore his oath upon a bible, as if this is somehow significant, which is typical tactic of historical revisionists. Washington never once identified himself as a Christian. Few historians consider Washington a Christian. Many consider him a deist. Some consider him somewhere in between. The fact that he never once proclaimed he was a Christian when it certainly wouldn't have hurt him politically to do so should lead anyone who cares to think about it much to question how strong those beliefs were. You may wish to read a bit farther down on your own link...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Washington_and_religion#Scholars.27_views_regarding_Washington.27s_beliefs

[saras]

4. Paine was hated for his radicalism, not his deism

At any rate, most of the good ideas currently associated with America can be traced to Solon of Athens or to the Iroquois Federation, whether they passed through Thomas Paine or not.

[white_wolf]

5. Ironically enough Paine's radicalism is why I like him so much more than the other Founders.

[Ichingcarpenter]

8. The revolution wouldn't have happened without him.

His pamplett The American Crisis (1776–1783), a pro-revolutionary pamphlet series. "Common Sense" was so influential that John Adams said, "Without the pen of the author of 'Common Sense,' the sword of Washington would have been raised in vain

Thomas Paine’s Common Sense was known as the most widely read political distribution of the time. Thomas Paine spoke in a language that the ordinary colonist understood.

[former9thward]

15. Zero evidence of that.

Paine was hated for his religious views (or non-views). That is the historical record.

[sudopod]

19. Paine was hated for his religious views (or non-views).

Sounds like someone else we know.

[former9thward]

20. You may wish to compare someone who was a regular church goer in Chicago

with someone who hated religion but I don't think they are comparable.

[sudopod]

21. You are lucky that it's impossible to die of irony poisioning.

Maybe Eris does love you.

[former9thward]

22. With all that editing you could have at least checked your spelling.

[sudopod]

23. :3

:3

Spelling: the last refuge of the scoundrel

[Volaris]

6. The thing that scares me about Santorum is that in this regard anyway he is a different

than the rest of his cohorts.....

Romney says crazy things because he believes them to be politically expedient at the time of the saying.

Gingrich says crazy things because being a bombastic rabble-rouser has always been his M.O., and he's just sticking to form.

R. Paul says crazy things because he has figured out that a lot of his college-age supports that want to be able to smoke pot and not go to jail for it don't know the difference between a liberTARIAN and a liberTINE (but when they do figure it out, I suspect they are going to be right pissed at Congressman Paul for letting them think the 2 are the same)

Santorum says crazy things because HE ACTUALLY BELIEVES THEM.

This is someone who believes that the Salvation of his eternal soul is dependent on his ability to save YOUR eternal soul, and NO ONE (most certainly heathen YOU) is ever going to be allowed to fuck that up for him if he has any power to do anything about it. He believes this so strongly that he would rather put a sword through your heart than let YOU condemn him to an eternity of flame just because you were being all stubborn and bull-headed in you opposition letting him save you. the irony of this is that a truly Christian God (all knowing, all loving, all powerful, and all forgiving) would not BY DEFINITION be dumb enough, hateful enough, weak enough, or vengeful enough to put a SELF-CONFESSED AND ADMITTED flawed, failed, weak, stupid, hateful and otherwise sinful HUMAN BEING like Sen. Frothy in charge of when I get to go to the bathroom, let alone the salvation of my ETERNAL FUCKING SOUL. (if I have one and there is, in fact, a God.)

That is all.

[_ed_]

9. Tom Paine is actually real, which always helps

.

[AzDar]

10. ...

[hobbit709]

11. Just finished rereading The Age Of Reason the other day.

[WCGreen]

13. A great book from a few years ago is the Faith of the Founding Fathers....

It is not uncommon to hear Christians argue that America was founded as a Christian nation. But how true is this claim?
In this compact book, David L. Holmes offers a clear, concise and illuminating look at the spiritual beliefs of our founding fathers. He begins with an informative account of the religious culture of the late colonial era, surveying the religious groups in each colony. In particular, he sheds light on the various forms of Deism that flourished in America, highlighting the profound influence this intellectual movement had on the founding generation. Holmes then examines the individual beliefs of a variety of men and women who loom large in our national history. He finds that some, like Martha Washington, Samuel Adams, John Jay, Patrick Henry, and Thomas Jefferson's daughters, held orthodox Christian views. But many of the most influential figures, including Benjamin Franklin, George Washington, John and Abigail Adams, Jefferson, James and Dolley Madison, and James Monroe, were believers of a different stripe. Respectful of Christianity, they admired the ethics of Jesus, and believed that religion could play a beneficial role in society. But they tended to deny the divinity of Christ, and a few seem to have been agnostic about the very existence of God. Although the founding fathers were religious men, Holmes shows that it was a faith quite unlike the Christianity of today's evangelicals. Holmes concludes by examining the role of religion in the lives of the presidents since World War II and by reflecting on the evangelical resurgence that helped fuel the reelection of George W. Bush.

An intriguing look at a neglected aspect of our history, the book will appeal to American history buffs as well as to anyone concerned about the role of religion in American culture.

http://www.amazon.com/Faiths-Founding-Fathers-David-Holmes/dp/0195300920/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1329750635&sr=8-1

I would recommended it to anyone interested in the getting a real idea of what it meant to be a Chirstian during that time period.

There is also a pretty good PBS special called God in America that traces how and why we got to where we are today.