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Sun Jul 28, 2013, 10:14 PM

 

I love the new meme: FDR Democrats are hurting the 99% by focusing on Snowden

It's a hoot! From the Third-Way prevaricators at politicsusa:

As Republicans Make Millions Suffer, the Left’s Ideologues Obsess Over Edward Snowden

This claim is being made by Third-Way Democrats, the very people who have gleefully disembowled the 99% for a few shekels over the past 20 years, and who have relentlessly claimed that the NSA Spy on Everyone program is actually about Snowden not NSA overreach.

Wow!

Of course, FDR Democrats are infinitely more concerned about the Constitution than about Snowden, and believe in helping the 99% by helping the 99%, not by cutting Social Security or sending jobs abroad through "free" trade agreements.

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Reply I love the new meme: FDR Democrats are hurting the 99% by focusing on Snowden (Original post)
MannyGoldstein Jul 2013 OP
liberal_at_heart Jul 2013 #1
Skittles Jul 2013 #2
DJ13 Jul 2013 #7
bvar22 Jul 2013 #95
zeemike Jul 2013 #22
JDPriestly Jul 2013 #32
Enthusiast Jul 2013 #48
gaphaw Jul 2013 #58
AppleBottom Aug 2013 #172
LiberalLovinLug Jul 2013 #125
AppleBottom Aug 2013 #174
Rain Mcloud Jul 2013 #136
baldguy Jul 2013 #3
MannyGoldstein Jul 2013 #4
Marr Jul 2013 #26
JDPriestly Jul 2013 #33
Enthusiast Jul 2013 #49
treestar Jul 2013 #88
bvar22 Jul 2013 #97
Vanje Jul 2013 #131
AppleBottom Aug 2013 #173
AppleBottom Aug 2013 #175
treestar Aug 2013 #182
reusrename Jul 2013 #6
baldguy Jul 2013 #15
reusrename Jul 2013 #18
MannyGoldstein Jul 2013 #25
reusrename Jul 2013 #42
VanillaRhapsody Jul 2013 #84
NealK Jul 2013 #34
reusrename Jul 2013 #43
shawn703 Jul 2013 #52
reusrename Jul 2013 #86
AppleBottom Aug 2013 #177
Demeter Jul 2013 #57
baldguy Jul 2013 #90
rhett o rick Jul 2013 #121
Vanje Jul 2013 #130
baldguy Jul 2013 #148
Vanje Jul 2013 #149
idwiyo Jul 2013 #5
ProSense Jul 2013 #8
MannyGoldstein Jul 2013 #10
ProSense Jul 2013 #11
MannyGoldstein Jul 2013 #13
nomorenomore08 Jul 2013 #36
ProSense Jul 2013 #103
Android3.14 Jul 2013 #135
RC Jul 2013 #21
nomorenomore08 Jul 2013 #38
MADem Jul 2013 #132
Fumesucker Jul 2013 #139
MADem Jul 2013 #142
Fumesucker Jul 2013 #143
MADem Jul 2013 #144
HumansAndResources Aug 2013 #178
MADem Aug 2013 #179
Bragi Jul 2013 #62
Capt. Obvious Jul 2013 #92
pscot Jul 2013 #12
99th_Monkey Jul 2013 #23
nomorenomore08 Jul 2013 #39
HooptieWagon Jul 2013 #108
DissidentVoice Jul 2013 #156
bvar22 Jul 2013 #117
NealK Jul 2013 #35
Apophis Jul 2013 #101
kentuck Jul 2013 #9
backscatter712 Jul 2013 #14
kurtzapril4 Jul 2013 #146
mick063 Jul 2013 #16
liberal_at_heart Jul 2013 #17
Phlem Jul 2013 #122
bvar22 Jul 2013 #128
MannyGoldstein Jul 2013 #163
AllINeedIsCoffee Jul 2013 #19
mick063 Jul 2013 #24
freshwest Aug 2013 #167
awoke_in_2003 Jul 2013 #20
NoOneMan Jul 2013 #27
joshcryer Jul 2013 #28
Post removed Jul 2013 #54
Bluenorthwest Jul 2013 #85
Dragonfli Jul 2013 #29
reusrename Jul 2013 #44
Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2013 #30
sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #31
Drunken Irishman Jul 2013 #37
Zorra Jul 2013 #50
Drunken Irishman Jul 2013 #118
Zorra Jul 2013 #158
treestar Aug 2013 #184
Zorra Aug 2013 #187
treestar Aug 2013 #189
Zorra Aug 2013 #190
treestar Aug 2013 #191
Zorra Aug 2013 #195
JoePhilly Jul 2013 #60
Bluenorthwest Jul 2013 #71
4Q2u2 Jul 2013 #126
treestar Aug 2013 #181
woo me with science Jul 2013 #40
Puzzledtraveller Jul 2013 #70
sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #41
nadinbrzezinski Jul 2013 #45
sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #46
nadinbrzezinski Jul 2013 #73
treestar Aug 2013 #185
sabrina 1 Aug 2013 #192
treestar Aug 2013 #193
sabrina 1 Aug 2013 #194
Zorra Jul 2013 #63
sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #80
Zorra Jul 2013 #99
LiberalLovinLug Jul 2013 #124
cascadiance Jul 2013 #98
Enthusiast Jul 2013 #47
GeorgeGist Jul 2013 #51
mick063 Jul 2013 #53
tridim Jul 2013 #55
Fumesucker Jul 2013 #56
backscatter712 Jul 2013 #94
winter is coming Jul 2013 #96
madrchsod Jul 2013 #145
Skittles Aug 2013 #176
Bobbie Jo Aug 2013 #180
Gothmog Jul 2013 #59
JoePhilly Jul 2013 #61
mick063 Jul 2013 #64
JoePhilly Jul 2013 #65
mick063 Jul 2013 #66
JoePhilly Jul 2013 #67
mick063 Jul 2013 #69
JoePhilly Jul 2013 #76
mick063 Jul 2013 #78
bvar22 Jul 2013 #114
nadinbrzezinski Jul 2013 #79
JoePhilly Jul 2013 #111
nadinbrzezinski Jul 2013 #113
JoePhilly Jul 2013 #115
nadinbrzezinski Jul 2013 #116
Bluenorthwest Jul 2013 #83
JoePhilly Jul 2013 #112
sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #75
JoePhilly Jul 2013 #77
Summer Hathaway Jul 2013 #137
mick063 Jul 2013 #155
Summer Hathaway Jul 2013 #161
mick063 Jul 2013 #162
Puzzledtraveller Jul 2013 #68
Bluenorthwest Jul 2013 #74
Puzzledtraveller Jul 2013 #81
sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #82
bemildred Jul 2013 #72
treestar Jul 2013 #87
L0oniX Jul 2013 #89
great white snark Jul 2013 #91
railsback Jul 2013 #93
cascadiance Jul 2013 #100
quakerboy Jul 2013 #141
Sarah Ibarruri Jul 2013 #102
yurbud Jul 2013 #104
backscatter712 Jul 2013 #105
yurbud Jul 2013 #107
yurbud Jul 2013 #106
Fuddnik Jul 2013 #109
GiaGiovanni Jul 2013 #110
DissidentVoice Jul 2013 #120
bvar22 Jul 2013 #129
GiaGiovanni Jul 2013 #153
Zorra Jul 2013 #157
MannyGoldstein Jul 2013 #164
DissidentVoice Aug 2013 #171
treestar Aug 2013 #186
WorseBeforeBetter Aug 2013 #196
nilram Jul 2013 #119
Rex Jul 2013 #123
Jakes Progress Jul 2013 #127
WillyT Jul 2013 #133
Progressive dog Jul 2013 #134
Jack Rabbit Jul 2013 #138
Generic Other Jul 2013 #140
Politicub Jul 2013 #147
Vanje Jul 2013 #150
Politicub Jul 2013 #154
Vanje Jul 2013 #159
MannyGoldstein Jul 2013 #165
freshwest Aug 2013 #168
AverageJoe90 Aug 2013 #170
DeSwiss Jul 2013 #151
Harmony Blue Aug 2013 #183
AAO Jul 2013 #152
woo me with science Jul 2013 #160
MannyGoldstein Jul 2013 #166
AverageJoe90 Aug 2013 #169
PowerToThePeople Aug 2013 #188

Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sun Jul 28, 2013, 10:16 PM

1. they are creative. They have a new meme almost every day.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #1)

Sun Jul 28, 2013, 10:20 PM

2. flinging shit to see what sticks

yup

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #1)

Sun Jul 28, 2013, 10:41 PM

7. And circular links to back up those new memes within minutes

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Response to DJ13 (Reply #7)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 12:04 PM

95. If they spent the weekend coming up with THAT shit,

they really SUCK at their job.
They have become a sad parody of themselves.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #1)

Sun Jul 28, 2013, 11:28 PM

22. And you can pretty much guess what it will be.

A projection of what FDR democrats accuse them of.

It is based on the old school yard taunt....I'm rubber your glue.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #1)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 12:38 AM

32. They are really working hard, but they aren't changing what is wrong.

That tells you who they really are.

They are not the 99%.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #32)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 04:21 AM

48. Yes. We know who they really are.......nt

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Response to Enthusiast (Reply #48)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 08:16 AM

58. gapaw

don't you understand that lies are not important if your heart is in the right place ? AND what the problem with an ORWELLIEAN form of government? sorry about being such a bad smeller OOP'S MAKE THAT SPELLER

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #32)

Mon Aug 5, 2013, 12:49 AM

172. good point! nt

 

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #1)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 02:59 PM

125. Yet another Snowden centered rant by them

As far as I can see, most people concerned with NSA spying revelations are thankful towards Snowden but the story of the leaks and how far they go is the main concern. Whether he eventually gets hauled back or finds asylum is interesting but besides the point.

Those who don't want the American people to think about increasing government intrusion and corrosion of civil rights start these kinds of Snowden-centered memes that claim everyone but themselves are Snowden obsessed.

Its a well used tactic by Fox News etc.... Accuse the other side of doing what you are.

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #125)

Mon Aug 5, 2013, 01:34 AM

174. Snowden obssesed is that anything like being obssesed with civi rights?

 

Or Freedom, or patriotism, truth, transparency. Yep I can see how those are all bad qualities...

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #1)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 05:45 PM

136. The Blue Dogs get their money from the same un named scumbuckets

 

as the NeanderCons. But,hey,as a Rooseveltian,tofu farting,tree hugging,pinko,fairie,I defend the constitutional right to freedom of speesh. That is as long as it is opinion and not gift cards,donations,junkets,dining or good old fashioned bribery.
They also get talking points from the same conservative think tanks,since they are on the friendlies list.

May the mid-terms find them all kicking rocks back to the private sector along with their neo-nazi pallies in the house and judiciary.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sun Jul 28, 2013, 10:27 PM

3. Um....FDR Democrats are the ones that created the NSA.

 

And FDR Democrats are the ones that put a higher value on truth.

How many lies has Snowden told so far? How many lies will his sycophants let him get away with?

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Response to baldguy (Reply #3)

Sun Jul 28, 2013, 10:34 PM

4. But the Third Way told them to spy on all Americans

 

So tell us... How many lies *has* Snowden told so far? Let's see 'em.

(Note that rebuttal by the "least untruthful answer" crowd doesn't exactly count as refutation.)

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #4)

Sun Jul 28, 2013, 11:37 PM

26. +1

 

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #4)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 12:41 AM

33. Thank you Manny.

The surveillance apologists lie, cover up, and pretend to themselves that privacy doesn't matter anyway. Privacy does matter. That's why the Constitution guarantees so much of it to us.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #4)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 04:22 AM

49. Well said, Manny......nt

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #4)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 10:55 AM

88. They have not been spying on all Americans

Using false premises does not win an argument.

why do you never attack Republicans, instead of the people who have the common sense to get into office and manage to do something to keep you from living under Republicans.

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Response to treestar (Reply #88)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 12:07 PM

97. Can you back up your claim that the NSA has NOT been spying on all Americans?

..and NO.
The denial by Gen Clapper doesn't count anymore,
and neither does the original claim by the NSA on their Website "Fact Sheet".
They were forced to take THAT one down.

So How do YOU know
that the NSA isn't spying on all Americans?

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Response to treestar (Reply #88)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 04:29 PM

131. Lately, Republicans are very busy destroying themselves

with no help from anyone else.

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Response to treestar (Reply #88)

Mon Aug 5, 2013, 12:58 AM

173. I'm pretty sure that the thing that makes Republicans objectionable is

 

Their policies and NOT the R by their name. So when someone with a D by their name starts imitating the ones with R's by their name what exactly does it matter who you live under.

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Response to treestar (Reply #88)

Mon Aug 5, 2013, 01:36 AM

175. Democracy Now says they are.

 

&feature=youtube_gdata_player

As well as many other respectable progressive media outlets.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #4)

Mon Aug 5, 2013, 11:13 AM

182. "spy on all Americans"

is rank exaggeration.

FDR would have spied on all Americans (if that is even possible) if he needed to in order to protect this country.

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Response to baldguy (Reply #3)

Sun Jul 28, 2013, 10:41 PM

6. He's been spot on.

 

100% accurate.

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Response to reusrename (Reply #6)

Sun Jul 28, 2013, 10:59 PM

15. And that part about the NSA being able to read people's minds was....?

 

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Response to baldguy (Reply #15)

Sun Jul 28, 2013, 11:10 PM

18. Don't tell me something as simple at that is what has you so confused.

 

Is that really what you are confused about?

You don't understand his meaning, or you don't believe it is happening?

Either way, you are way too easily confused to try and engage in this discussion.

What's really interesting is your use of the ellipses in post. That's irony that is so delicious I can hardly stand it.

It's as if you want us to read your mind while you are typing...

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Response to baldguy (Reply #15)

Sun Jul 28, 2013, 11:37 PM

25. Got a link?

 

Thanks.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #25)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 01:29 AM

42. Here ya go! Next to the last paragraph.

 

It's not really mind reading, it's more like the way your smartphone finishes words. I cannot believe folks would get so confused over so simple a statement. I think they are just liars.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/us-intelligence-mining-data-from-nine-us-internet-companies-in-broad-secret-program/2013/06/06/3a0c0da8-cebf-11e2-8845-d970ccb04497_print.html

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Response to reusrename (Reply #42)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 10:35 AM

84. Apparently he is not SUPER ACME Computer guy enough to understand how AJAX works

 

I guess Google is reading your mind when it "suggests" what you are attempting to search for!

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Response to baldguy (Reply #15)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 12:42 AM

34. WTF are you talking about?

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Response to NealK (Reply #34)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 01:32 AM

43. A line from an old WaPo article.

 

Firsthand experience with these systems, and horror at their capabilities, is what drove a career intelligence officer to provide PowerPoint slides about PRISM and supporting materials to The Washington Post in order to expose what he believes to be a gross intrusion on privacy. “They quite literally can watch your ideas form as you type,” the officer said.



How this could be confused with mind reading is pretty illustrative of how cognitively unqualified some of these folks are to make comments on complicated subjects.

It's a pretty simple idea, how does one go about getting so confused by it?

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Response to reusrename (Reply #43)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 07:02 AM

52. Well

If you've read my posts on the topic of Snowden, you'd know I think he should be captured and tried.

However, I don't see this as a claim to "mind reading", but a poorly worded claim that the government can watch in real time what you're typing, proofreading, editing to make corrections, etc., (watching your ideas form as you type).

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Response to shawn703 (Reply #52)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 10:50 AM

86. Nothing wrong with giving him a fair trial.

 

He should get in line right behind the perjurers, banksters, and war criminals.

One of the charges against him is a property crime. The Bill of Rights in the Constitution makes it very clear that he should get a pubic trial by jury. I honestly don't think that's possible now, under the current circumstances. I'd love to be talked down from this viewpoint, but it would take a lot more than some recast promises about hope and change to convince me.

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Response to shawn703 (Reply #52)

Mon Aug 5, 2013, 02:18 AM

177. I hope you feel the same about Clapper and his perjury in front of congress... NT.

 

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Response to baldguy (Reply #3)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 07:58 AM

57. FDR Democrats like

 

Poppy Bush, W., John Yoo, Eric Holder, Barack Obama, Bill Clinton, those FDR Democrats?


There is something wrong here....none of those qualify as an FDR Democrat, and several are not Democrats even in name.

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Response to Demeter (Reply #57)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 11:02 AM

90. Right. Truman was a DINO.

 

So says Glenn Greenwald.

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Response to baldguy (Reply #3)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 02:31 PM

121. And how do you know how many lies Snowden has told? If he didnt tell them to you personally

 

who did you hear it from? And what did you compare it to to recognize which was true? I have a feeling you are just making it up.
Ad hominem attacks is all you got. Not one bit of substance.

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Response to baldguy (Reply #3)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 04:26 PM

130. This aint your Grandpa's NSA.

nt

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Response to Vanje (Reply #130)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 08:57 PM

148. This ain't your great-Grandpa's Gestapo, either.

 

No matter how much libertarian fuckwits like Glenn Greenwald say it is.

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Response to baldguy (Reply #148)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 09:27 PM

149. The administration is not as bad as the Gestapo.

So its GREAT?

Obama is not as bad as Bush, So he's great?

The Democratic powers that be are not as bad as the GOP, So Yay!

Very inspirational.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sun Jul 28, 2013, 10:35 PM

5. K&R

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sun Jul 28, 2013, 10:43 PM

8. Is this another

"Of course, FDR Democrats are infinitely more concerned about the Constitution than about Snowden, and believe in helping the 99% by helping the 99%, not by cutting Social Security or sending jobs abroad through 'free' trade agreements."

...divide and conquer post?

Look who voted to cut SNAP - Sanders and Warren. What a kick in the gut.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022987698#post12

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Response to ProSense (Reply #8)

Sun Jul 28, 2013, 10:49 PM

10. Perhaps. Or perhaps one of us is a

 

A government-propaganda sock puppet.

Hard to tell these days!

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #10)

Sun Jul 28, 2013, 10:50 PM

11. Is that a confession? n/t

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Response to ProSense (Reply #11)

Sun Jul 28, 2013, 10:52 PM

13. LOL nm

 

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Response to ProSense (Reply #11)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 01:04 AM

36. Why do you think our President is so infallible, in general? He's just a man for God's sake!

nt

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Response to nomorenomore08 (Reply #36)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 12:18 PM

103. He's not "infallible" and yup, he's "just a man"

And anything I post can be refuted. I'm just a poster for "God's sake!"

I mean, if I say the President is great, you can refute that.

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Response to ProSense (Reply #11)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 05:34 PM

135. The many-tentacled one has arrived

 

eom

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #10)

Sun Jul 28, 2013, 11:26 PM

21. Actually it is usually not that hard to tell.

 

Do they support 3rd Way, DLC, DINO's on a what used to be a Left leaning web site?
Do they blame Snowden for the over-reach of the NSA?
Do they maintain that collecting the meta data if fine, because they then need a warrant to listen/read the actual communications? Or do they maintain that the NSA does not collect the actual Communions, so the collecting of the meta data is legal, because that data does not belong to us?
And on and on and on, trying desperately to somehow make the wholesale hoovering of the worlds digital data is what honest governments do.

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Response to RC (Reply #21)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 01:05 AM

38. "Used to be"? It still is left-leaning...

Otherwise the Third Way-ers wouldn't be called out like they (rightly) have been.

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Response to RC (Reply #21)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 04:42 PM

132. Left leaning web site? This place was founded in anger over the theft of an election from

two of those guys many "lefties" have since thrown under the bus--Gore and Lieberman.

Two of those awful Third Way, DLC types. Were it not for those "DINOs" this place wouldn't exist.

I think just because one quadrant of the party is very LOUD here doesn't necessarily make them the majority.

I also think that people who are DEMOCRATS can have differing views over national security issues. People who feel compelled to call those who disagree with them shitty little goading/baiting names or attach labels to them that suggest they are less "loyal" to Democratic principles than the people with the "correct" ideas are the ones who need to check their mirrors.

Honorable people can differ on this issue. Labelling and name calling doesn't help the situation--it makes this sad thread look way too META, too.



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Response to MADem (Reply #132)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 06:06 PM

139. Joebituary campaigned for McCain and the lovely Ms Palin in 2008

A really good example of a strong Democrat for you to use, a veritable black hole for charisma and honesty in politics.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #139)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 06:29 PM

142. He was Al Gore's running mate. The Truth is Out There, over at DU2.

He wasn't always a pariah here.

And he was half the reason this website was founded.

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Response to MADem (Reply #142)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 06:36 PM

143. He's a big part of the reason Gore "lost" in 2000

A damn sight bigger part than Ralph Nader.

Joe was always a loathsome creature, a Grima Worm Tongue brought to life.

His evil in 2008 was so great the emanations of the penumbra of it rippled back in time and turned Democratic voters off in 2000.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #143)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 06:48 PM

144. I am not a fan. That said, there are plenty of people here who WERE fans of the guy AND

fans of Gore, Edwards, and others that some people here now have flung under the bus as "wanting."

The point remains, this website wasn't founded to tout Ralph Nader or Rand Paul, it was founded as a reaction to the theft of the White House from Gore-Lieberman by George Bush.

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Response to MADem (Reply #132)

Mon Aug 5, 2013, 06:30 AM

178. If Gore had become Pres in 2000, We could have had this conversation back then.

 

Because he definitely would have shafted us with Globalization - just like Clinton did. OK, I can't prove he wouldn't have betrayed his Corporate Backers and taken Perot's pro-worker positions "in his second term" (gag - still falling for that one?) - but if we could make a bet and had a way to prove it, it would be a good one.

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Response to HumansAndResources (Reply #178)

Mon Aug 5, 2013, 06:35 AM

179. We likely wouldn't have had it here. This website came to the fore because of that theft. nt

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #10)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 09:01 AM

62. Manny, Manny, Manny

Sock puppets are so 1990s. What we now have are "personas", which are like Mach X sock puppets on steroids.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #10)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 11:09 AM

92. LOL

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Response to ProSense (Reply #8)

Sun Jul 28, 2013, 10:51 PM

12. They will definitely be drummed out of the party

as soon as we're done bringing the President down. So much mischief, so little time.

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Response to pscot (Reply #12)

Sun Jul 28, 2013, 11:32 PM

23. If President O would simply do his job, as promised, vis-a-vis the US Constitution & Bill of Rights

 

that he swore an oath to uphold, then I would have no big problem w/ Obama.

If the President, who campaigned on "transparency" in government, would
stop criminalizing whistle-blowers, and would shut down all the secret spying
on US Citizens, then that would go a long way to restoring my faith in him.

If Obama would use all that constitutional law he learned at the University,
and use it on behalf of the 99% who are being totally hosed by the 1%
on his watch ... If the President would to that, then I would feel like
he was keeping his campaign promises and would not have any significant
beef with him, well .. except for the medical marijuana promises he
made, to leave states alone who had MM programs.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #23)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 01:07 AM

39. +1

Look, I'm a two-time Obama voter. I'm generally inclined to like the guy, on personal level. But the trashing of the Fourth Amendment was pretty much the last straw.

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Response to nomorenomore08 (Reply #39)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 12:31 PM

108. Same here.

 

Voted for him twice, would probably like him if I met him personally. Cut him a lot of slack inre GOP obstruction. Unhappy about drone killings, but violating 4th A is final straw.

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Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #108)

Tue Jul 30, 2013, 10:27 AM

156. Me three

I don't know if he just has gotten and acted on bad advice, or if he's truly been seduced by the power of the office.

That said, violation of the 4th A began long before Mr. Obama went to Washington.

The USA Patriot Act kicked it into overdrive.

However, long before that, the SCOTUS ruled that in a border-crossing area, the 4th doesn't apply and border officers basically have carte blanche to do what they want (I live within walking distance of the Canadian border). That frightens me every time I come back from Canada (I've rarely had trouble on the Canadian side, but too often get "the works" coming back).

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #23)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 01:37 PM

117. Worth repeating:

[font size=3]"If Obama would use all that constitutional law he learned at the University,
and use it on behalf of the 99% who are being totally hosed by the 1%
on his watch ..."
[/font]




You will know them by their [font size=3]WORKS,[/font]
not by their speeches, promises, or excuses.

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Response to ProSense (Reply #8)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 12:47 AM

35. "divide and conquer post? "

Lol! Oh the irony.

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Response to ProSense (Reply #8)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 12:14 PM

101. You mean like many of your OPs?

 

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sun Jul 28, 2013, 10:44 PM

9. Does Stephanie Cutter post here?

She's a very bright, straight-razor toting woman. Would you call her Third Way or FDR Democrat?

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sun Jul 28, 2013, 10:58 PM

14. That's a creative new way for them to try to stir up the Two Minutes Hate!

By espousing left-wing values, we're hurting left-wing causes.

Makes sense to me!!!

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Response to backscatter712 (Reply #14)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 07:55 PM

146. I know! Amazing, isn't it? n/m

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sun Jul 28, 2013, 10:59 PM

16. After the DNC puts the Party in the passenger seat of the GOP bus going over the cliff.

 

They will be clamoring for FDR Democrats to come to the rescue.


I personally applaud this "divide". It means we are getting somewhere. After all, if we FDR Democrats were merely inconsequential "fringe", the DNC trumpeters would not be "wasting time" complaining about us. Time better spent on more important endeavors like championing the feeding of our hungry instead. I am dismayed that they have allowed FDR Democrats to distract them from this important work.

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Response to mick063 (Reply #16)

Sun Jul 28, 2013, 11:05 PM

17. What's funny is they don't even ask nicely at election time. They simply insult, berate, and bully

us telling us we must vote democrat and if we don't it is our fault if the republicans win. They do this because in the past we have, like dutiful abused spouses, obeyed and did what we were told, but there does seem to be something different in the air this time. I don't think as many liberals are just simply going to do what they are told. I think this time around we will see liberals do what their conscience has been telling them to do for years.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #17)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 02:31 PM

122. +1



-p

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #17)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 04:12 PM

128. Its going to be a LOT harder for an unknown...

...to sell himself as a Working Class Pro-LABOR Populist THIS time.
That one is ALL Used Up.

There will have-to-Be a SOLID Track Record of Public ADVOCACY for the Working Class,
and a SOLID Track Record of countering and OPPOSING the consolidation of Wall Street and Corporate POWER and the burgeoning Surveillance/Security State.

Without THAT,
they won't get my money, support, GOTV activism, OR my vote.

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Response to bvar22 (Reply #128)

Tue Jul 30, 2013, 06:52 PM

163. I think you're right

 

There will be more reality-based scrutiny this time.

Lord, I hope so!

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sun Jul 28, 2013, 11:12 PM

19. FDR Democrats would lock Snowden up with the Japanese in one of those fancy internment camps. nt

 

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Response to AllINeedIsCoffee (Reply #19)

Sun Jul 28, 2013, 11:36 PM

24. Which is much better treatment than my father would have given them.

 

He was filled with hate. Perhaps from what he witnessed in the Pacific Islands.

Regardless, I thought we had strategically advanced past the firebombing of Yokohama. Certainly, we are doing a better job of mitigating collateral damage. Still, women and children appear to be casualties. No avoiding it in "war" I suppose.

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Response to AllINeedIsCoffee (Reply #19)

Fri Aug 2, 2013, 11:54 PM

167. Afraid so. So who are the FDR Democrats, Obama or the Purists?

Both were/are multifaceted and the job description includes doing things that the innocents consider evil. But we are not really all that innocent, are we?

'The Prince of Peace' wasn't on the ballot. God traits assigned to humans end up disappointing us.

'In space no one can hear you scream.'

No one is coming to save us. We have to do this ourselves. JMHO. YMMV.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sun Jul 28, 2013, 11:26 PM

20. Damn liberals. nt

 

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sun Jul 28, 2013, 11:38 PM

27. I thought we were still busy smearing civil libertarians? Oh! I mean Paulbots

 

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sun Jul 28, 2013, 11:51 PM

28. Rmuse is Third Way?

Have you even read their other posts on PoliticsUSA?

Rmuse has a personal opinion on Snowden you don't like and suddenly they're Third Way?

What a fucking pathetic type of group think. You should be ashamed for accusing Rmuse of being Third Way.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #28)


Response to Post removed (Reply #54)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 10:38 AM

85. You who posted this: "The Obama Administration officially supports legal MMJ"

 

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2196458

Here is a thread in which you are wrong about policy, wrong about who appointed the US Attorneys, and in which you claim those who speak the facts are lying for agenda's sake.
"And a back-door attempt to bash Obama (yet again) from what I'm seeing posted here."
www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2070156

I could do this for an hour or so. You have been more pointedly incorrect about basic verifiable facts more often than any DUer I can think of save for one. On Marijuana law alone you posted more false statements and assumptions and accusations than I can count and you did it for years and year, even after the facts were shown to you, you'd persist in claiming otherwise.
Sorry, but we all have memories.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sun Jul 28, 2013, 11:54 PM

29. The Third Way Democrats making that claim are helping the 99% with

Important negotiations on "free trade deals" and "entitlement reform".

They are merely concerned that the FDR types with screw it all up and harm negotiations that would prudently and sensibly continue a plan to "moderately" take sacrifices from the 99% to enrich the wealthy and corporate job makers enough to eventually allow them to open up the floodgates of trickle down wealth that will raise all boats after the flood of poverty makes us all buoyant enough.

The TPP will ship jobs to cheaper labor markets enabling more profit to trickle on the soon to be under/unemployed that the deal will create just as it will be most needed!

Savings from Medicare cuts Third Way negotiations have just given us will free up more money to keep taxes low on the 1% bringing us all closer to the impending trickle cash we need so much! They are getting things done folks, we should be helping them!

Cuts in medicare funded hospice care started this month!

Also, medicare is cutting back on funds for home healthcare visits.Then there is the closing down of senior centers, sometimes called adult daycare. Not to mention much less funding for wheelchairs and cushions.

We needed these "ENTITLEMENT" reforms! But they know we need more and are negotiating for us even now to achieve more to help the 99%


I hope the FDR libertarians don't screw up the negotiations happening right now that would cut more from the 99% so that the 99% can be "enprospered".

...these meetings demonstrate that the president is in fact engaging Republicans in a broader discussion about debt and spending. An administration official said White House aides have made clear to Republicans that the president’s offer from December—including $600 billion in new tax revenue for $400 billion in Medicare and other health care cuts—still stands.
More on the work being done offering cuts to the 99% to help the 99% here:
http://www.nationaljournal.com/congress/republicans-white-house-in-talks-toward-big-fiscal-deal-20130717


So you see it is the Third Way doing all the work to help us whereas all the FDR libertarians have ever done is cause the problems that need to be fixed now by creating the "Entitlements" that are hurting the 99% so much that they need to be cut. So they are right that the FDR's are hurting the 99%

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Response to Dragonfli (Reply #29)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 01:46 AM

44. +1000! When you say it like that, it's like the nose on your face.

 

How can people not see this happening?

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 12:04 AM

30. There's this old saying in the Beltway....

 

Democrats fall in love and Republicans fall in line.

Based on that,...the main effort by the Beltway Ignoramuses is to head off that love by telling everyone Snowden isn't your new boyfriend.

We don't need a hero. We need the shit to STOP.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 12:15 AM

31. They're getting desperate, aren't they? Your Third Way buddies.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 01:05 AM

37. FDR was probably right of Obama on civil liberties...

 

Until Obama locks up an entire race of people based solely on their ethnicity and nothing else, I don't think it's smart to compare anything to FDR.

Just google FDR and wiretapping to see that what Obama has done is not new and certainly not something FDR was above doing himself.

But let's just continue with our revisionist history. It's what you're good at, Manny.

You know, it's funny, so many of the DU leftists here like to ridicule Obama supporters for their blind faith and turning him into some god-like figure, and yet, those same posters will turn around and promote FDR in similar terms - ignoring every bad and questionable thing he did and focus entirely on the good. Funny how that works, eh?

FDR was a great president ... but let's stop pretending he didn't have flaws, or didn't so some truly questionable things.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Reply #37)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 06:34 AM

50. No one is pretending FDR didn't have flaws.

We'd simply like to see our government put enormous primary effort into actually helping people, like FDR did with the New Deal, instead of our government primarily functioning to serve wealthy private interests, like what is happening now with the Raw Deal.

As for FDR's wiretapping, he had Hitler and the Nazis, and a whole lot of other nasty fascists to contend with. Genocidal fascists who were invading other countries and who were intent on establishing a RW authoritarian world.

That's a bit different than the NSA wiretapping Occupy Wall St and everyone else in the world in order to protect the 1% from democracy.

"The first truth is that the liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic state itself. That, in its essence, is fascism - ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. "
-Franklin D. Roosevelt

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Response to Zorra (Reply #50)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 01:56 PM

118. You just proved my point...

 

You tell me no one is pretending FDR didn't have his flaws and then justify his questionable actions. When those who support Obama try to justify his actions, we're instantly told there is no justification whatsoever - you either support wiretapping or you don't.

Obama has done a lot to help the American people? AS much as FDR? Probably not. Then again, FDR served three terms and was elected to a fourth - so, it's not quite fair to compare.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Reply #118)

Tue Jul 30, 2013, 11:23 AM

158. Sorry, but that's simply unreasonable, irrational bullshit.

If: I point out that wiretapping by FDR was done under certain conditions may have been justifiable

Then: I am pretending FDR did not have flaws.

No.

Sorry, but that does not make logical sense.

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Response to Zorra (Reply #50)

Mon Aug 5, 2013, 11:15 AM

184. What wiretaps on occupy wall street?

The terrorist of today are more dangerous to civilians than the Nazis. They have modern technology and can physically get here, which the German army could not do.

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Response to treestar (Reply #184)

Mon Aug 5, 2013, 11:35 AM

187. WHAT? The terrorists of today are more dangerous to civilians than the Nazis?!?

Are you frackin' kiddin me?


By genocide, the murder of hostages, reprisal raids, forced labor, "euthanasia," starvation, exposure, medical experiments, and terror bombing, and in the concentration and death camps, the Nazis murdered from 15,003,000 to 31,595,000 people, most likely 20,946,000 men, women, handicapped, aged, sick, prisoners of war, forced laborers, camp inmates, critics, homosexuals, Jews, Slavs, Serbs, Germans, Czechs, Italians, Poles, French, Ukrainians, and many others. Among them 1,000,000 were children under eighteen years of age.1 And none of these monstrous figures even include civilian and military combat or war-deaths.

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NAZIS.CHAP1.HTM


With all due respect, our educational really needs to put history back in the curriculum.

The lack of basic common historical and understanding that I have seen here at DU is astounding, disturbing, and frightening.

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." George Santayana

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Response to Zorra (Reply #187)

Mon Aug 5, 2013, 12:01 PM

189. I meant American civilians

We were talking of the NSA and national security, so I thought we were just discussing Americans at home in the United States.

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Response to treestar (Reply #189)

Mon Aug 5, 2013, 12:59 PM

190. Still don't believe terrorists could ever be more dangerous to us than the Nazis.

I suspect that far more Americans have already been killed and wounded by George W. Bush on the pretense of fighting terrorism than will ever be harmed by al Qaeda.



http://antiwar.com/casualties/

I have always had a problem understanding the reason why terrorists from other countries would want to attack us. What is it that they perceive that we do to them that makes them hate us so much that they want come to to kill us?

I understand the reasons behind the delusions why deranged RW domestic terrorists do their nasty deeds, but why would Islamist terrorists from Asia want to kill American civilians? What do they believe we did, or do, to them?

No one has ever rationally explained this to me.

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Response to Zorra (Reply #190)

Mon Aug 5, 2013, 01:12 PM

191. Why did the Japanese want to attack us?

Is it not possible that these people are just deranged? Why do we always have to be at fault for everything, even attacks made against us?

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Response to treestar (Reply #191)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 11:51 PM

195. Japan was in the throes of RW imperial nationalism and FDR put an oil embargo on Japan.

It was the excuse Japan was seeking to start a war.

The whole Islamist terrorist thing is a very different scenario, I believe.

Yes, I'm sure some of them are deranged, but I still don't understand why they are they attacking us.

I'm not saying it's the fault of the US, but maybe if someone could find out why they are attacking us we could put a stop to it and not have to got through all this terrorist rigamarole.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Reply #37)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 08:22 AM

60. +1

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Reply #37)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 09:53 AM

71. If you are going to hurl 'revisionism' about, look in the mirror. Internment was a great wrong

 

but it was regionally applied, you say 'an entire race of people based solely on their ethnicity and nothing else' but geographic location was a big part of who got sent to camps. Japanese in Hawaii, no internment. On the East Coast, no internment. So why revise that to 'an entire race,based on ethnicity and nothing else'?
"The internment of Japanese Americans was applied unequally as a geographic matter: all who lived on the West Coast were interned, while in Hawaii, where 150,000-plus Japanese Americans comprised over one-third of the population, only 1,200[4] to 1,800 were interned. Sixty-two percent of the internees were American citizens.
President Franklin D. Roosevelt authorized the internment with Executive Order 9066, issued February 19, 1942, which allowed local military commanders to designate "military areas" as "exclusion zones," from which "any or all persons may be excluded." This power was used to declare that all people of Japanese ancestry were excluded from the entire Pacific coast, including all of California and much of Oregon, Washington and Arizona, except for those in internment camps."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_American_internment

No one is pretending FDR had no flaws, but some pretend the history, intention and parameters of the internment were much different than they really were. It was not the entire population of Japanese heritage, it was not 'ethnicity and nothing else'. It was a large war, Imperial Japan attacked the West Coast several times and was seeking new and better ways to do so. They were doing some horrific shit in China which we did not want to happen here. War,it was fucking all out war. Oregon had civilian deaths from Japanese bomb.

Is this wartime? Do we have lots of brown Muslims in prisons? Did FDR keep people for 'indefinite detentions'? Internment ended before the war ended. When does Gitmo end again?

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #71)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 03:28 PM

126. German Spies Also

 

Not to mention the American Nazi party and their Madison Square Garden Party



http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq114-3.htm

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Reply #37)

Mon Aug 5, 2013, 11:12 AM

181. +1

OP would have been disappointed in FDR, too. Nothing he did was complete in terms of what OP would have wanted.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 01:09 AM

40. Why do plutocrats put a sweeping, Constitution-assaulting, spying infrastructure into place?

To increase their own power and control, to facilitate their corporate predatory agenda, and to prevent both investigation of their abuses by a free press *and* dissent by the citizens they are systematically exploiting, stripping of their rights, and impoverishing.

No surprise the corporatists among us are arguing that ignoring the spying is the best way to help the people.


War is Peace.
Freedom is Slavery.
Ignorance is Strength.


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Response to woo me with science (Reply #40)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 09:50 AM

70. power for the sake of power

that is all

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 01:11 AM

41. I wonder what would happen if the Left just got tired of these attacks from within their

own party? Suppose they just decided that since they are not welcome in the current iteration of the party, they all just left??

Do you think Democrats could win an election without the hated 'Left'??

That may be the end result of all this hatred for the 'Left'.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #41)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 01:50 AM

45. Yes, and it will happen

 

We go through these realignments every 75 years or so.

The Ds are fast becoming the party of business. The Rs will either adopt the left agenda, as incredible as it sounds, or likely disapear, and a third party will emerge to take the place for labor et al.

The parallels to the 1850s are uncanny, by the way.

So yes, liberals will leave, like Radical Republicans left the Whigs, and form a pro labor party. Don't believe me...just read what Lincoln had to say about labor.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #45)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 02:25 AM

46. No, I do believe you. We are no longer welcome in the party as it has evolved into the

Third Way party it is today. And this is a question many Democrats are asking. Why stay in a Party that has made its disdain for you perfectly clear?

We'll see, but there is a feeling of despair and disillusionment and when you begin to see the kind of right wing attacks on Liberals, now more frequent than ever, you have to wonder, 'why am I being a fool'? And people are wondering.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #46)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 09:56 AM

73. I know exactly how I am voting in 2014

 

And that is that.

Dems in leadership will get it when a challenger in third party defeats either major candidate, and not in a small state. That process is accelerating in California where unaffiliated, as in indie voter, is the fastest subgroup

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #46)

Mon Aug 5, 2013, 11:16 AM

185. Go form a third party then

That is really your only solution. It's a free country. You can do it.

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Response to treestar (Reply #185)

Mon Aug 5, 2013, 09:57 PM

192. And you prove the point once again. We are going NOWHERE. This is OUR Party

and we intend to keep it. There IS a Third Party and it has attached itself to our party. That is what needs to be dealt with.

We have learned a lot over the past few years, it won't be easy to push republican-lite candidates on Democratic voters anymore.


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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #192)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:15 PM

193. There is no point in taking over a party

If it does not win elections. The rest of the party has a voice in what it represents, too, not just the purists. Again you feel entitled to control the party, yet if you did, it would not win elections in present-day America.

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Response to treestar (Reply #193)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 11:26 PM

194. Tell that to the Third Way. They HAVE taken over the party, because we let them.

We thought winning elections was everything, because of Bush. We've learned that is not 'winning' and we will work to rid the Party of people whose own policies are listed on their website. Ther is another party for them. We need two parties, not one.

Democrats win when their policies are implemented. That is winning.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #41)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 09:10 AM

63. Isn't that the ultimate goal? Neutralize the Democratic party by driving out traditional

Democrats.Then all that remains is two authoritarian anti-democratic parties completely committed to serving the needs wealthy private interests.

Without traditional Democrats, the Democratic party does not have enough support to defeat republicans.

Game over, 1% wins.





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Response to Zorra (Reply #63)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 10:24 AM

80. I definitely think that is the goal. But the question is, if they were to succeed, can they win

without the Left? The Left can vote for Progressive Dems and/or Independents and work towards building up a progressive Congress. The WH costs over a billion dollars.

They may have speeded this up too fast to be able to sustain the loss of the Left and still win.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #80)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 12:10 PM

99. I don't believe that Democrats winning is necessarily a goal

of the Third Way corporatists.

What is important to them is that, whoever is elected, be they republican or "Democrat", maintains the status quo ~ ie, supports anti-democratic profit seeking commercial interests, wealthy private interests, over the interests of human beings. In reality, they probably prefer that republicans be in power, because it strengthens their ability to present more authoritarian 1% friendly "lesser of two evils candidate" to Democrats.

Using their socks and unwitting dupes to drive traditional Democrats out of the Democratic party insures they get either business friendly republican lite or republicans. Either way, it's business as usual, and profits continue unhindered by those pesky regulations supported by traditional Democrats, while the overall condition and quality of life of the general population continues to degrade into a permanent condition of serfdom.

The game is rigged, and it's not rocket science.

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Response to Zorra (Reply #99)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 02:46 PM

124. +100

Sure seems like it.

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Response to Zorra (Reply #63)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 12:10 PM

98. What we need is some strong third party candidates to run in big races on IRV as single issue

 


If some big races can get "messed up" for the PTB if one or more third parties enter in to them, if these third party candidates would unite and say if in the domain they are running (national if president, a given state if state level), that legislative bodies pass instant runoff voting for subsequent elections to be in place, that they would pull out of the present race, then it would put in place in the future an elective environment where the corporatist 1%ers could no longer "buy the field" if a good third party candidate ran that the 1%ers couldn't buy off.

Then the Dems and/or the Repubs in those elections would be forced to be honest and listen to their constituencies or go the way of the Whigs...

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 04:16 AM

47. Thank, Manny! This is a perfect example of the massive propaganda effort we are enmeshed in.

Politicsusa sucks and should be thoroughly discredited.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 06:49 AM

51. As Republicans make millions suffer ...

Reagan Democrats look for a Grand Bargain.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 07:11 AM

53. That's it

 

I'm positive I will leave the top of the ballot blank if we get another corporate schmoozer nominee.

If I'm put in a position where I have to defend FDR, I'm definitely in the wrong party. Perhaps I won't leave the top blank after all.

Can anyone point me to a good progressive forum I can join?

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Response to mick063 (Reply #53)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 07:23 AM

55. DU cir. 2001-2008 was good, and progressive.

Then Obama got elected and a bunch of idiots decided to take over DU and turn it into a libertarian shithole filled with lies, misinformation and personal delusions.

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Response to tridim (Reply #55)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 07:30 AM

56. You misspelled "authoritarian" n/t

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #56)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 11:56 AM

94. DUZY! n/t

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Response to backscatter712 (Reply #94)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 12:07 PM

96. More like "truzy". n/t

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Response to tridim (Reply #55)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 06:57 PM

145. +1

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Response to tridim (Reply #55)

Mon Aug 5, 2013, 02:11 AM

176. one by one I have put them on Ignore

and DU is back to the way it used to be!!!

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Response to tridim (Reply #55)

Mon Aug 5, 2013, 06:39 AM

180. +1000

Nailed that one, alright.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 08:19 AM

59. FDR Democrats is the name that the Larouchies

A Larouchies type calls her cult FDR Democrats. Unfortunately she was on the ballot in CD 22 in Texas in 2010 and 2012

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 08:47 AM

61. Um ... The article doesn't use the term "FDR Democrats".

Its pretty disingenuous to change the terms from those used in the article and not mention that you did so.

Its also an interesting tactic to call something a "meme" when no one is actually saying what you claim is being said about "FDR Democrats".

The article refers to "ideologues" and "civil libertarians" (a term I've heard some on DU use to describe themselves), "disaffected liberals" (sounds like a part of DU).

"FDR Democrats" are not mentioned, and from what I can tell, its not a well defined term (maybe you can define it and make sure the description includes interment camps and their impact on civil liberties).

Skipping the labels, the key point of the article is an important one. Republicans are intentionally doing as much damage as they can, all around this country. And that's where the real fight should be. And that's where many Democrats are focused.

Meanwhile, the folks on the left who are the most disgruntled tend to argue that there is some group that is preventing then from obtaining the change they seek.

What they don't seem to want to consider is the possibility that it is their approach, and not some scary group, that causes them to fail.

The same folks who ran around this site impotently screaming for a primary challenge to Obama, might have been better served focusing on more realistic targets for their outrage. Perhaps focusing it on the GOP members who, on a daily basis, are actively trying to screw this country.

Or not.

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Response to JoePhilly (Reply #61)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 09:13 AM

64. Yes, it is all the left's fault

 

Good luck in 2014.

You are every bit as scary as the GOP.

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Response to mick063 (Reply #64)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 09:34 AM

65. That's the difference between us ...

... I will be focused on defeating the GOP in 2014, and you will be complaining in nonproductive ways.

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Response to JoePhilly (Reply #65)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 09:37 AM

66. I will be focused on defeating plutocracy in every form.

 

That is the difference between you and me.

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Response to mick063 (Reply #66)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 09:39 AM

67. How you going to do that exactly?

You going to hunt down TPTB?

Which local candidate in your area is running on an "anti-plutocrat" platform?

You are making my point.

Thanks.

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Response to JoePhilly (Reply #67)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 09:49 AM

69. Perhaps the same way that you will be "focusing"

 

What's the deal? You have a monopoly on "focusing"?

You are more qualified to focus than I am?

I suppose I will start by abstaining from your candidates. Then I will be active in supporting my candidates.

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Response to mick063 (Reply #69)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 10:03 AM

76. Apparently, yes.

I'll explain.

In my local races, I'll be looking for democratic candidates who can beat the right wing nut that they will certainly face here. The key issues in the general elections will be jobs, women's reproductive rights, education funding, and infrastructure investments. As it turns out, these issues are also important nationally.

Among the list of critical issues, Snowden will be way, way down the list. Any candidate spending lots of time on that topic will be wasting their time.

As will anyone running on the "anti-plutocrat" platform.

Now, you (and the other disgruntled folks) can spend all of your time complaining about the bad democrats, but that's not an effective strategy for winning elections and getting anything done (or preventing the GOP from doing really terrible things).

Let's skip 2014 ... think about 2016 ... with all the complaining about Hillary, some of these disgruntled folks should be getting busy trying to build up an "acceptably liberal" alternative.

But look around DU ... the OPs are 20 complaining about existing Dems to maybe 1 or 2 putting forward the alternative the disgruntled would support in 2016.

Rather than focusing on what to do to actually get a candidate you'd prefer, you are going to spending your time complaining about those you don't like.

So you better get busy ... 2016 will be here very soon, and Hillary will win (if she runs) unless the alternative is very strong.

And you'll be here on DU complaining about the plutocrats.

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Response to JoePhilly (Reply #76)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 10:17 AM

78. Nice rant

 

I choose to no longer be an enabler.

I do not recognise your lofty perch. Scare tactics no longer work with me.

I will work against your compromise. I will relentlessly communicate this position to all that might listen.

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Response to mick063 (Reply #78)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 01:25 PM

114. And I will STAND with you AND with Harry Truman!!

WE will STAND together!

[font size=3]
"I've seen it happen time after time. When the Democratic candidate allows himself to be put on the defensive and starts apologizing for the New Deal and the Fair Deal, and says he really doesn't believe in them, he is sure to lose. The people don't want a phony Democrat. If it's a choice between a genuine Republican, and a Republican in Democratic clothing, the people will choose the genuine article, every time; that is, they will take a Republican before they will a phony Democrat, and I don't want any phony Democratic candidates in this campaign."

---President Harry Truman
QED:2010[/font]



[font size=3]Leadership! "The Buck Stops HERE!" NO Excuses!
No Whining. No Blaming Somebody Else![/font]





You will know them by their [font size=3]WORKS.[/font]



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Response to JoePhilly (Reply #76)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 10:17 AM

79. Then we get candidates like my whole delegation

 

Democrat and republican, who voted to protect the NSA and not the people.

Call it singe issue if you will, but civil rights are on top of my agenda. The process Joe...is accelerating in California...where people will be indeed voting third party. As is most voters in Cali are unaffiliated at this point.

There are things that partisans always miss.

By the way he also voted to defund Obamacare...in case you wonder. It made zero difference.

Now the man does have a flair for political theater though.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #79)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 12:58 PM

111. The disgruntled aren't bringing forward better

candidates.

That's the point.

Spend your time complaining about how bad the current Democratic candidates are, or find better candidates that can win.

But I don't see the disgruntled really trying to do the latter.

And if you want to vote 3rd party, go ahead.

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Response to JoePhilly (Reply #111)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 01:19 PM

113. You are so off it is not even funny

 

we had a better candidate, she lost by a mere 100 votes in the primary.

But I guess you know my local politics better, I mean this is like my beat or something... what do you want to know of the local JUDGE race? Serious? We even cover that shit, which none does.

Regardless, the move to a majority of voters being unaffiliated is happening, next step is not voting for either major party. That is not me saying it, that is political scientists who understand far more than you do, and are NOT PARTISAN, saying it.

And the trend increasingly among FIRST TIME VOTERS should really worry you.

http://www.sfgate.com/politics/article/More-young-voters-register-unaffiliated-4147453.php


Should I remind you that California IS A TREND SETTER?

Don't worry, IN PRIVATE, my local Democratic Party Leadership understands this problem... the Rs are too dysfunctional to care.

By the way, as a reporter I AM AN INDIE and intend to remain such... it is just good practice. And giving money to campaigns. that is well over for me.

But you know what? What I hear from you, or rather read, is rationalization and denial of what is going on. and what is going on is that the Democratic Party, in a historically predictable shift, is becoming the party of business.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #113)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 01:33 PM

115. CA certainly set the trend on gay marriage.

Oh wait. That didn't happen.

And let me get this straight ... your "better candidate" lost in CA. A place where it should be easy finding winning "better" liberal candidates.

btw ... you seem confused.

My point is not that liberal candidates can't win. Or that I don't want them to.

Its that the disgruntled appear to be spending their time complaining about Democrats that are already elected and not finding and BUILDING UP better liberal candidates who would have a chance to win.

And coming up with an anecdote here and there doesn't cut it.

If the disgruntled spent half as much time developing "better candidates", as they do complaining, we'd probably have more liberals in office around the country, now.

And as for the unaffiliated. The mistake you are making is that you assume that they are going to vote with you ... with whatever 3rd party you think will come along at some point.

What's more likely is that the effort from the right and left to get people to hate the government entirely is going to do 2 things.

1) Right wingers will be energized to vote ... and they will vote GOP, period.
2) Members of the left will become frustrated and simply not vote.

The net effect, if there is one, will be to help the GOP hold on and even gain power, even though demographic trends should destroy them.

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Response to JoePhilly (Reply #115)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 01:35 PM

116. Nah, you seem confused, not me

 

You are so deeply partisan that like your counterparts, as long as they have a D you do not care what they do. Moral center... not need apply.

And the net effect is that the GOP is going away, while the Ds, become a business party and the challengers emerge. This is a historic pattern, not the first time we have seen that, and if the US survives, not the last time either.

History books are useful.

For the moment, you are a deep partisan, died in the wool, and no evidence will enter your mind.

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Response to JoePhilly (Reply #76)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 10:28 AM

83. I've already elected my preferred candidates to the Congress and will return them next year

 

If you could cease with the name calling and invective and redundant rhetoric you might notice that not all States and districts are like your own. You do the 'let's skip 2014' bit because it sure as hell does not serve your trope to speak about the next election or who puts whom in Congress.
Wyden, Merkely, DeFazio. You'd probably seek to defeat them all, but here they are very popular. We don't need to find 'alternatives'. We know how to win elections. Last cycle, we had visible groups of 'Republicans for DeFazio' campaigning against the Republican candidate who was full tilt crazy Art Robinson. Republicans supported the progressive DeFazio, they did not whine for some Blue Dog type, they rejected insanity for reason and ethics.
Too bad the name calling and invective crowd can't stop with the blather long enough to learn some lessons. Our midterm turn out breaks records each year, including 2010 when all the Blue Dog Moderates stayed home and failed to elect their Tea Dogs or Blue Baggers....

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #83)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 01:10 PM

112. Really ... some districts are different from other districts?

I had no idea.

Ironically, the disgruntled tend to ignore that reality. The reason you get a blue dog in one district is because he or she lives in a red district. And no amount of lamenting that fact is going to get a Bernie Sanders elected in that district.

Also ... you said ...

Wyden, Merkely, DeFazio. You'd probably seek to defeat them all, but here they are very popular.


That idiotic statement tells me a great deal. I like those folks and I think we'd do well to have more like them. But you thought making that erroneous claim would what, hurt me?

And as for name calling (a complaint which was ironic after your prior quai-personal attack) ... spare me ... the folks who are endlessly complaining call me (and others) far worse than "disgruntled".

For the most part, the disgruntled are easily distracted. They shift from outrage to outrage on a very regular basis.

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Response to JoePhilly (Reply #65)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 10:03 AM

75. That's the only 'difference between us' in your opinion?

I don't think so.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #75)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 10:04 AM

77. Did I say "only"?

I don't think so.

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Response to JoePhilly (Reply #61)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 05:55 PM

137. I was about to post basically the same argument

when I came across your reply - which, BTW, is an excellent response.

"Meanwhile, the folks on the left who are the most disgruntled tend to argue that there is some group that is preventing then from obtaining the change they seek.

What they don't seem to want to consider is the possibility that it is their approach, and not some scary group, that causes them to fail."


On.The.Money.

For some, the poutrage is everything - and they refuse to be distracted away from that poutrage by such trivial matters as what is happening to their fellow citizens in the real world.

I would suggest they form their own party, The Perpetually Poutraged - no heavy lifting required: no supporting a candidate, no financial contributions to be made, no time or effort expended on electing suitable office-seekers. All one has to do is post on a political message board 24/7 complaining about anything and everything.


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Response to Summer Hathaway (Reply #137)

Tue Jul 30, 2013, 10:18 AM

155. cool story

 

You know where you can put that GOTV chant.

Chad counting is good entertainment. Let the Supreme Court decide the next one.

It is called extortion. The only language the corporate schmoozers can understand. Hell......you probably respect us for it.

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Response to mick063 (Reply #155)

Tue Jul 30, 2013, 02:48 PM

161. My GOTV chant?

Rest assured I wouldn't waste my breath encouraging anyone to vote on this site.

The good citizens here who vote will continue to do so, and need no encouragement from me, or anyone else.

The rest of those here will do what they always do: sit home on election day, stew in their own poutrage juice, and then return to whining on websites about how terrible everything is.

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Response to Summer Hathaway (Reply #161)

Tue Jul 30, 2013, 03:04 PM

162. I will be watching much "poutrage"

 

After 2014.

Reverse extortion.

Instead of being extorted through threat of potential GOP leadership if I don't support third way, I shall extort through threat of demanding an alternative to third way or stay home and allow GOP leadership. In either case the failed ransom is GOP leadership.

I prefer my terms when playing "chicken".

I shall work diligently in this endeavor.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 09:49 AM

68. Because we are the anti-republican party

That's all it takes these days. It's unfathomable that we may stand on the issues, principals. I am extremely proud of the stand many here and in the country are taking. It is very inspiring and it's helping to show peoples true colors.

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Response to Puzzledtraveller (Reply #68)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 09:59 AM

74. How is it anti Republican when so many appointees and highly praise political allies are Republicans

 

Fairly selective opposition when the Sec of Defense was selected from Republican choices and an anti gay, anti choice Iraq War supporter is the choice .

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #74)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 10:25 AM

81. It's the qualifier

My remark was sarcasm. That the only qualifier to be a "democrat" is to be anti-republican. By anti-republican I mean that even with what you said, which is true, the loyal are blind to it because it's just about two letters D and R to them.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #74)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 10:26 AM

82. No one will answer that question. We have so many Republicans now in the Democratic

Cabinet, it's hard to remember we won.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 09:53 AM

72. Yes, it's very funny. You can smell the desperation for a real argument.

And classic projection, of course, it's not us that wants to make it about Snowden.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 10:53 AM

87. I still maintain you would have been dissatisfied with FDR

back in his day, as the social programs have been expanded since, and therefore were not perfect from the jump.

And you would be disappointed with Warren because she would have to work with Congress too, and every one of them would be more conservative than she, almost all the rest of the Democrats.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 10:57 AM

89. Old game - Fun With Framing by Mattel. New game - Reframing: Game of the Year Edition.

 

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 11:08 AM

91. Now you fancy yourself an FDR Democrat?

If FDR saw how you behave he'd strap on the leg braces and kick your butt.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 11:50 AM

93. LoL. "THIRD WAY DEMOCRATS"?

 

FDR Democrats?? ROFL! How about 'Magic Wand Democrats', or 'The Unicorn Party'? How dare anyone slander FDR by associating him with ilk like Snowden.

Well, it seems those 'Third Way Democrats' are smart enough to understand that we NEED Congress to move forward, the President IS NOT the King, and you just can't snap your fingers and wiggle your hips to make shit happen. Do 'FDR Democrats' (*cough*) really think that losing BOTH chambers of Congress is good for the country? And how about 2016? Hillary hardly has a commanding lead, and 47% voting Republican is a gimme. There's not much ground to cover to put the GOP candidate over the top, especially if its someone like Christie, who only has to reach another 5% of moderates. I guess giving the Republicans another blank check is great for Socialism.. because that worked out so well in the past.

The more I see shit like this, the more I want to see Snowden behind bars. The now de facto leader of the 'FDR Democrats', who tried to sabotage the U.S., now has his minions trying to sabotage the Democratic Party. The Right went all Teabaggery, the Left is going all Libertarian.

The 'new meme' is spot on.

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Response to railsback (Reply #93)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 12:12 PM

100. Yeah, they dumped the DLC label, once it was documented the KOCH BROTHERS FUNDED IT!!!!

 

When they get exposed too much in their past history of corruption, they must find a new dark cloud to hide in.

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Response to railsback (Reply #93)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 06:17 PM

141. I prefer to call them by their real affiliations, myself

Republicans and Democrats. There is no "third way".

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 12:15 PM

102. Third Way Democrats - are they Democrats or are they something else trying to pass as Democrats? nt

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #102)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 12:22 PM

104. they should be called third input Democrats

since it feels like they're screwing us.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #102)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 12:25 PM

105. I just call them DINOs.

Though "quislings" works too.

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Response to backscatter712 (Reply #105)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 12:26 PM

107. even DINO is too kind since it could imply an economic progressive/cultural conservative

though I can't think of anyone who fits that mold at the moment.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 12:25 PM

106. I would also propose calling them the Larry Summers or Robert Rubin Democrats

Since no real progressive would want those guys anywhere near ANY kind of policymaking position, let alone economic policy, but the DLC, Third Way Democrats treat them like THEIR FDR.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 12:32 PM

109. Are you taking responsibility, Third Way Manny?

Confession is good for the soul.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 12:34 PM

110. What is a Third Way Democrat?

 

It sounds like a religious cult.

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Response to GiaGiovanni (Reply #110)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 02:04 PM

120. Basically a Jerry Ford Republican

"Third Way" Democrats are chiefly a product of the now-defunct Democratic Leadership Council.

After the electorate shifted so far to the right in the 12 years of Reagan/Bush Senior, with Walter Mondale and Mike Dukakis getting trounced by Lee Atwater's GOP machine, a faction in the Democratic Party believed that they needed to be more "centrist" to get candidates elected.

Between the lines, that reads:

1. Stop pushing for universal, single-payer health care, because there isn't the "political will" for it.
2. Go along to get along with cutting taxes for the top 1%.
3. Jump on the Republican bandwagon on "welfare reform" (cf. Bill Clinton, 1994).
4. Show that you're just as "pro-military" as any Republican.
5. Cut social programmes to prove you're pro-"individual responsibility."
6. Be cautious with your embrace of organised labour but pay lip service to it.
7. Trumpet how pro-"private sector" you are.
8. Show that you're "tough on crime" by supporting the death penalty.
9. Show that you're "tough on terrorism" by supporting the USA Patriot Act.
10. Distance yourself from the Great Society and New Deal but pay lip service to it.

The best examples of these "Third Way" types I can think of are the late Paul Tsongas, the Clintons, Evan Bayh, Claire McCaskill and Kathleen Sebelius.

In Britain, Tony Blair and his so-called "New Labour" got him out of a job for being George W. Bush's unstinting supporter of the Iraq War.

The current Prime Minister of Australia, Kevin Rudd, is a Third Way adherent.

The Liberal Party in Canada is largely Third Way, and even the formerly-socialist New Democratic Party has adopted some Third Way stances.

They call themselves the "radical centre"...to me that's trying to please so many people that you end up pleasing almost nobody.

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Response to DissidentVoice (Reply #120)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 04:21 PM

129. Nice analysis.

The DLC as an organization is now defunct,
but that is because it achieved ALL of the goals for which it was established,
and was no longer necessary to funnel Corporate CASH to conservative, "NeoLiberal" "Democrats". Its People were installed in positions of POWER at the head of the Democratic Party.
The organization is defunct, but the DLC is FAR from gone.
Its People and Advocates are STILL very much with us.

[font size=5]
The DLC New Team
Liberals Need NOT Apply
[/font]

(Screen Capped from the DLC Website in 2009)


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Response to DissidentVoice (Reply #120)

Tue Jul 30, 2013, 12:46 AM

153. Thanks for the explanation

 

I'll be on the lookout now.

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Response to DissidentVoice (Reply #120)

Tue Jul 30, 2013, 11:09 AM

157. +1

Thanks!

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Response to DissidentVoice (Reply #120)

Tue Jul 30, 2013, 06:59 PM

164. I want to say you're wrong about Tsongas...

 

Because I worked on his campaign... But I can't.

However, in Tsongas' defense, he had actual positions and beliefs, and was willing to debate not demagogue. Which is an important reason why Clinton beat him.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #164)

Sun Aug 4, 2013, 11:05 PM

171. I meant no disrespect to the late Senator

When I first heard him in the '92 campaign, I wondered, "why is this man a Democrat?" especially after he articulated his position against universal health care.

However, that was not meant to impugn his character.

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Response to GiaGiovanni (Reply #110)

Mon Aug 5, 2013, 11:20 AM

186. It is someone who supports the Democratic Party

Rather than trashing it all the time.

Someone who wants Democrats elected, even if they are Blue Dogs, if they are from Red States where a Blue Dog is all you'll get.

Someone who deals in today's political reality rather than complaining constantly.

Someone who opposes Republicans and blames them rather than blames everything on the Democrats.

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Response to GiaGiovanni (Reply #110)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 11:59 PM

196. A fresh thinker!

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 01:56 PM

119. Pot, meet Kettle

None of his top posts are about empowering the 99%.

http://www.politicususa.com/all-time-popular-posts

And it's hard for me to take his "issue" seriously when he's got a sports blog on there as well.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 02:32 PM

123. Yeah the pathetic desperation by the moderate-right wing of the party

 

is getting them mass ignored I see. I guess they will have to make new socks to cheer for their old socks.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 04:01 PM

127. Third way democrats have been studying their karl rove.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 05:02 PM

133. K & R !!!

 


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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 05:27 PM

134. Why are the new left obsessing over Snowden?

That's a nice sentiment about the FDR democrats, but your post is about Snowden, and this was an afterthought.

Of course, FDR Democrats are infinitely more concerned about the Constitution than about Snowden, and believe in helping the 99% by helping the 99%, not by cutting Social Security or sending jobs abroad through "free" trade agreements.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 05:57 PM

138. Excuse me, but I'm not obsessing over Mr. Snowden

I'm obsessing over the Fourth Amendment and I'm not too happy with Democrats who think its violation is no big deal or think that having a secret court oversee the details of the program is a sufficient safeguard.

Well, it's only a pieces of paper, right?

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 06:15 PM

140. The 3rd Way is Obsessing over this

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 08:20 PM

147. It's self-indulgent to focus on Snowden at the expense of everything else

Your post is about an opinion some people hold. It's not a meme in the traditional sense.

Your post is thought provoking, though.

There are people who are hungry, homeless, sick or have any number of afflictions that affect them because of no fault of their own. Worrying about "the constitution" is difficult on an empty stomach.

Voting rights and women's rights are vital. Children are killing each other and themselves with handguns they find

Now that I think about it, the discourse on DU often revolves around Snowden these days. Or at least it dominates the front page.

Meanwhile, none of the other social issues that need addressing are going away. If anything, they're becoming more acute.

But I don't believe thoughtful discussions about poverty, for instance, lend themselves to soundbites.

Snowden has become a symbol that people use to describe themselves more than a real cause. It seems there's an unspoken Snowden Scale that a subset of posters use as a kind of purity test.

IMHO, Snowden has become an indulgence for some. A few quick searches revealed that Snowden is the sole topic of interest for many of the posters upthread.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

But don't insult us by acting like it's some kind of virtue.

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Response to Politicub (Reply #147)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 09:40 PM

150. Its self-indulgent to worry about steep erosion of constitutional rights.

Gotcha.

Your post explains something else too.

Obama's bankster cabinet choices, and Larry Summers , his golden boy for the FED, have been too busy worrying about the poor and hungry, to oversee and address continuing rampant financial and fraud.
Bless their dear caring hearts.

Can I send you a big sandwich? Maybe if you had full belly, you'd give a shit about constitutional rights.




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Response to Vanje (Reply #150)

Tue Jul 30, 2013, 10:04 AM

154. Declaring unbending loyalty to Snowden has become Norquist-esque

I stand by my opinion.

The Snowden loyalty oath has become the DU version of the Norquist Tax Pledge. Just like all good republicans must adhere to the Norquist pledge, you're not a real democrat unless you join the Snowden fan club.

You can be against PRISM and the more odious provisions of the Patriot Act while believing Snowden is a traitor to his country. It's not the whistle blowing that bugs me. It's how he conducts himself with his tour of despotic countries.

As an aside, I think your comment telling me to go eat a sandwich is beyond disgusting. Do you also believe poverty is the fault of the impoverished - that the poor are too lazy? It sure sounds like that's what you believe.

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Response to Politicub (Reply #154)

Tue Jul 30, 2013, 11:46 AM

159. Nope

"As an aside, I think your comment telling me to go eat a sandwich is beyond disgusting. Do you also believe poverty is the fault of the impoverished - that the poor are too lazy? It sure sounds like that's what you believe. "

The very opposite is true.
I fucking hate the rich.

Your assertion that being concerned about Snowden and civil liberties is an indulgence for the elite, and well fed, is repulsive.
I am fortunate enough to have an income, it is below the poverty level, and yet I concern myself with constitutional rights. Such an elitist, eh?

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Response to Politicub (Reply #154)

Tue Jul 30, 2013, 07:03 PM

165. "Snowden loyalty oath?"

 

Seriously?

One of us is confused, could be me. My take is that there are a bunch of people who are mad about the White House's Spy on Everyone program that Snowden revealed - some are pro Snowden, and some (like me) are not super comfortable wit what he did. Then there are the folks who seem to feel that the most important issue here is proving that Snowden sucks, which is just weird.

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Response to Politicub (Reply #147)

Sat Aug 3, 2013, 01:24 AM

168. Well said.

Last edited Sat Aug 3, 2013, 01:55 AM - Edit history (1)

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Response to Politicub (Reply #147)

Sat Aug 3, 2013, 03:08 AM

170. Very true.....

 

Oh, and Germany's been pulling a similar routine to the one Bush/Cheney started as well....but why isn't the U.S. media picking up on it?

http://en.europeonline-magazine.eu/germany-to-spend-millions-to-expand-internet-surveillance---report_286245.html

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 09:46 PM

151. Snowden's expose's show.......

 

...that BILLIONS are suffering under the hands of the present administration's policies. Billions of people around the word are being subjected to illegal violations and intrusions into their privacy on a daily basis and on-going basis.

And that's the part we know about.

These ignorant people who claim membership among Democrats would do well to read some history. They need to understand that without our rights it doesn't matter if a few millions will suffer because all of us will suffer. And in the worst ways imaginable. Get your damned heads out of the sand. Take those blinders off. And then open your eyes and SEE.

- Wake. Up.

K&R

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Response to DeSwiss (Reply #151)

Mon Aug 5, 2013, 11:15 AM

183. They don't care about history

as long as their "team" wins in the short term. They do not care about long term consequences.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 09:47 PM

152. Just disgusting. I'm nauseous just thinking about it.

 

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Tue Jul 30, 2013, 02:26 PM

160. kick

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Response to woo me with science (Reply #160)

Tue Jul 30, 2013, 07:06 PM

166. me

 

Sorry, crummy joke.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sat Aug 3, 2013, 03:05 AM

169. The sad thing is, Manny.....this is actually TRUE, like it or not. From an FDR (social) Democrat. nt

 

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Aug 5, 2013, 11:35 AM

188. People CAN multitask.

 

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