General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThe world’s most and least ethnically diverse countries
More: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/05/16/a-revealing-map-of-the-worlds-most-and-least-ethnically-diverse-countries/
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When five economists and social scientists set out to measure ethnic diversity for a landmark 2002 paper for the Harvard Institute of Economic Research, they started by comparing data from an array of different sources: national censuses, Encyclopedia Brittanica, the CIA, Minority Rights Group International and a 1998 study called Ethnic Groups Worldwide. They looked for consistence and inconsistence in the reports to determine what data set would be most reliable and complete. Because data sources such as censuses or surveys are self-reported in other words, people are classified how they ask to be classified the ethnic group data reflects how people see themselves, not how theyre categorized by outsiders. Those results measured 650 ethnic groups in 190 countries.
One thing the Harvard Institute authors did with all that data was measure it for what they call ethnic fractionalization. Another word for it might be diversity. They gauged this by asking an elegantly simple question: If you called up two people at random in a particular country and ask them their ethnicity, what are the odds that they would give different answers? The higher the odds, the more ethnically fractionalized or diverse the country.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Other parts, like small towns in the Mid-west, are not.
So, just lumping the US together with one color does not tell the story.
BeyondGeography
(39,351 posts)Doubt it's more diverse than the U.S. Agree with the writer and his possible explanation:
BainsBane
(53,016 posts)BeyondGeography
(39,351 posts)PDJane
(10,103 posts)And see every race, religion and colour pass by, We have everyone from everywhere, and it makes a better place to live in.
We have people from everywhere either living or working here. The guy next door is from Barbados via Ireland. He's black, his wife is white and Irish. On the other side, he's Greek and she's Russian. My mother's pcw this week is from Egypt. The guy who owns the corner store is an Arab from Israel. There are three institutes of higher learning within walking distance; they attract foreign students. There is at least one Palestinian professor at U of T. There is a Metis professor at Ryerson. The young woman who sells me my glasses is from Lebanon. The man who does the eye test is Chinese. The woman at the front desk is from Vietnam. The man who cuts my hair is from Scotland. These are only the people I know, personally. Most people in Canada live in cities, and many of those people come from elsewhere; the Ukraine, Russia, the middle east, south America. My son's girlfriend is from Costa Rica. His business partner is from India.
Trust me, the whole answer is not Quebec.
BeyondGeography
(39,351 posts)Meanwhile, Statistics Canada says that in Canada, close to 40% of children under the age of one will be visible minorities by the year 2031.
So, while I dont think either piece of news is Earth-shattering, or cause for either alarm or celebration, I do find the comparison interesting.
Canadians tend to go on (and on) about what diverse a country they live in, but when you look at the children (our future, as Whitney Houston liked to remind us), the United States appears to be far ahead of us in terms of its proportion of minorities over 50%, while we wont reach 40% for another couple decades.
http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2012/05/18/marni-soupcoff-canada-talks-the-diversity-talk-but-the-u-s-walks-the-diversity-walk
PDJane
(10,103 posts)And, of course, the First Nations people are not necessarily counted in minority status; we are busily trying to reframe the argument and deny treaty status to more and more of them. That way, the treaties can be abrogated with impunity. French are a minority, but not necessarily counted that way either, especially in Quebec.
It's good, bad, and indifferent......but I live right downtown in Toronto. As in, three blocks from the Eaton's centre, and from where I sit, and from the people I know and associate with, this is a VERY multicultural city. Remember, too, that we are a commonwealth country; that means that we have a system that attracts those immigrants from other commonwealth countries including, until the handover, Chinese from Hong Kong. *shrug* Facts of life. That is why there is a high proportion of Sikh farmers and Chinese in BC, as well. Alberta is not necessarily so diverse; Ottawa is. Toronto is. Vancouver is. Newfoundland/Labrador isn't.
BeyondGeography
(39,351 posts)Then again, I could drive there from upstate NY. One of these days...Quebec City is my fave tho. Nothing like a good fondue and a bracing after-dinner walk on the Plains of Abraham.
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)The end of an institution
muriel_volestrangler
(101,271 posts)It's only about the population of the whole country. And with Canada having a figure, from 1991 Encyclopedia Britannica data, of 0.71, well above the US's 0.49 (2000 Census data), that will surely be because French-Canadian has been counted as a separate ethnicity from 'British-Canadian' (or whatever they called it). They may well have separated 'British origin' from other European origin, as the CIA does (and this is present-day data, not 1991):
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ca.html
polly7
(20,582 posts)We have people from every ethnicity here and in our surrounding area. Regina is a very diverse cities and it's small by most standards. I have no doubt that Canada should be exactly where it is on the list.
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)The Quebecois are white, but they represent a distinct ethnic group; they've lived in the same territory for centuries, have a wholly separate and distinct language and culture from that of Anglophone Canada, a different religion (historically, at least; Anglophone Canada being mostly Protestant and the Quebecois Catholic).
BeyondGeography
(39,351 posts)Canada was about 84% white in 2006; the U.S. 80%, and minority birth rates are much higher here than in Canada. As for "distinct ethnic groups," our white population is far from a monolith, even if it is counted as such.
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)The Quebecois are as much an ethnic group as the Basques in Spain; they're a totally separate population, with a distinct ancestral origin, speaking a different language, and having a distinct culture. (The Amish also constitute an ethnic group, for the same reason.)
BeyondGeography
(39,351 posts)I haven't been able to get through to them.
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)"Scots-Irish" (or "Ulster Scots" is an ethnicity. You seem kind of confused by the concept.
BeyondGeography
(39,351 posts)It's an ethnicity (though it gets lumped in with the general white population in these not terribly illuminating diversity studies) with a well-defined set of political behaviors and grievances, not unlike the Basques and the Quebecois. Jim Webb wrote a book about it:
http://www.amazon.com/Born-Fighting-Scots-Irish-Shaped-America/dp/0767916891
Both a distinguished work of cultural history and a human drama that speaks straight to the heart of contemporary America, Born Fighting reintroduces America to its most powerful, patriotic, and individualistic cultural groupone too often ignored or taken for granted.
KamaAina
(78,249 posts)as measured by the UN. Take a hike, NYC, LA, London, etc., eh?
Posteritatis
(18,807 posts)BeyondGeography
(39,351 posts)We call them all Caucasians though.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Toronto is one of the most multicultural cities in the World.
Sid
pampango
(24,692 posts)Multiculturalism is a part of their constitution.
eissa
(4,238 posts)I find that REALLY hard to believe. Like, really, really hard to believe.
cthulu2016
(10,960 posts)Well aware of the Kurds. As well as a few surviving Armenians, Assyrians and Pontic Greeks. Maybe a dash of Chechens, Azeris and other Caucas nations (although some could argue that they have Turkish origins, but that's another thread.) I'm sure Istanbul has a sizeable ex-pat community, and there might be some European dwellers around the coastal towns. But the rest of the country is nowhere near as diverse as Tucson or Orlando, let alone Chicago or NYC.
CJCRANE
(18,184 posts)Not to mention all of the various European ethnicities.
Turkey sits right on the border between Europe and Asia. They may all seem the same to us but the reality on the ground is probably very different.
It's like Africa. I didn't realize there were so many different tribes and ethnicities until I went there (and I only saw a fraction of them).
muriel_volestrangler
(101,271 posts)If you want the exact figures, the paper is available here: http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=319762
Turkey's ethnic 'fractionalization' is 0.32 (from CIA World Factbook numbers), the USA 0.49 (from the 2000 Census) (higher is more diverse). The present-day CIA Factbook says, for Turkey,
Turkish 70-75%, Kurdish 18%, other minorities 7-12%
The one I find surprising is Spain, at 0.42 (from 1991 data in the Encyclopedia Britannica). Even if Catalan and Galacian are taken as separate ethnicities, the language split the CIA Factbook gives is:
Castilian Spanish (official) 74%, Catalan 17%, Galician 7%, and Basque 2%
so you'd expect a figure about the same as Turkey's. It even puts Spain's religious fractionalization at 0.45, and that's in a country that's 94% Roman Catholic according to the CIA.
'Europe', of course, doesn't have a figure. Apart from Spain, some countries like Belgium (about 50-50 Walloon and Flemish) and Switzerland (French, German, Italian, Romansh) do have high figures, but the point is that countries have largely been formed along ethnic lines.
Australia (0.09, 1986 Enc Brit data) is probably counting all European descent as one ethnicity (though, for 1986, it might even count some as different, eg Greek v. British, and still arrive at that figure). While there's a lot of variation in Aboriginal groups, their numbers are small, and so they can't push the number that high.
pampango
(24,692 posts)I need to get my eyes checked
maxsolomon
(33,252 posts)yes, there are more TRIBES in Somalia and Afghanistan than the US.
this is NOT "diversity".
cthulu2016
(10,960 posts)I think the study is probably a useful measure of potential civil strife because if people think of themselves as X and as their neighbor as Y that is an indicator of division, even if they are the same ethnic group.
But as a measure of ethnic diversity, it is problematic.
But then, what non self-reported measure of ethnicity would we use? You see the problem, there.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Can't be very much.
It's also amusing how you apparently think people need your permission to identify themselves as an ethnic group.
Let me guess - you're caucasian, right?
maxsolomon
(33,252 posts)I'm glad I could amuse you.
I don't think "people" need my permission to do anything, and I resent your implication that it is indicative of white privilege or geographical ignorance. What's YOUR level of expertise on the ethnicities of Somalia and Afghanistan? Why are you trying to pick a fight?
I simply reject the premise of this survey - that countries such as Somalia is more "diverse" than the US, where we have every "ethnicity" from Somalia, plus every "ethnicity" from Ethiopia, Eritrea, Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam, China, India, etc. ad infinitum. I am proud of America's diversity.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Ethnicity is self-identified. That's the first thing to keep in mind. It is a social construct, but then so is nationality and I don't see anyone bitching that the map has borders - most are in fact arguing on nationalist premises as you are, "Our nation is the bestest!"
Think of it this way. Vietnam recognizes 54 distinct ethnic groups within its borders. There are many others not given official recognition as well, for... whatever reasons Vietnam has for that, I don't pretend to know. But that's 54 ethnic groups, not counting immigrant populations. These people identify themselves as Co, as Hao, as Tay, as Hmong, as whoever.
In the 70's and 80's there was a lot of immigration from Vietnam to the United States. Undoubtedly these people came from all sorts of ethnic groups within Vietnam, not just the Viet people. Once in the Us however, all these different ethnic groups ended up having way more in common with each other than with the society they found themselves in, and so identify as a whole group. You don't find many Chu Ru-Americans or Xinh-Mah-Americans... you find Vietnamese-Americans. This isn't always the case, of course - some ethnic groups are large enough, or end up isolated from the overall immigrant population and form distinct ethnic immigrant communities - so you will find Hmong-Americans, for example.
Scale of population also has a lot to do with the map, from what I gather. For instance, a larger proportion of Canada's population is native American than the US, and most first nations identify as distinct ethnic groups. So Canada, which has the same swath of immigrant representation as the United States, also has greater diversity and population of Native American peoples.
When you dismiss peoples' own claims of ethnicity and proclaim "tribes aren't ethnic groups," that's a belittling, dismissive attitude, and is in fact you claiming that these people must have your permission to identify as an ethnic group. Maybe that's not your intent, I'm going to guess that it's not. But that is the effect.
Xithras
(16,191 posts)A Pashto and an Uzbek are just as culturally different as a Frenchman and a German. Different language, different cultural norms, different history, etc. Heck, the Nuristani's, who have an attested history stretching back over 2000 years and who may have been in the region since prehistoric times, frequently have blue eyes, blonde hair, and have next to nothing in common with the neighbors surrounding them. They didn't even become Muslim until about 100 years ago.
As percentages of the population, there is more ethnic diversity in Afghanistan than in all of the U.S.
maxsolomon
(33,252 posts)If there's 5 ethnicities, all with 20% of the population, then that's more "diverse" than a country with 100 ethnicities, but one is >50% of the total.
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)I think the problem here is that most white people in the US, when asked their ethnicity, are like "Durr, white?"
I'm half Swedish, a quarter German, and a quarter Scots-Irish.
What do I even say when asked my ethnicity?
I'm an American first and foremost. I celebrate my ethnic diversity more as a curiosity than as an actual identity. Like if someone asked me my ethnicity I would say "white."
I call shenanigans on the map in the OP because we've got people in the US from literally every country on earth, and the people who are actually FROM here are a tiny (but incredibly diverse) percent of the population. Pick any two white people (or black people, Asian people, Native Americans, or any other people really) and you're going to get different mixtures. My closest friends are Italian and Hungarian; French and Polish; Chinese and Swedish; and Russian, English and German. I have friends with last names from almost every European country and a few non-European countries.
The map in the OP reflects Balkanization more than it reflects actual ethnic diversity.
cali
(114,904 posts)cthulu2016
(10,960 posts)hunter
(38,303 posts)... and places that are not.
I live in a community of greater diversity, I'm guessing it would be one of the dark green places. There must be lot of less diverse places in this nation to dilute that. It would be interesting to see the U.S. map broken down by county.
cali
(114,904 posts)some of the data dates back to the late 80s. The article notes that conceptions of ethnicity can change over time.
not to mention that this is all about self-identified ethnic differentiation.
from the article:
Another caveat is that people in different countries might have different bars for what constitutes a distinct ethnicity. These data, then, could be said to measure the perception of ethnic diversity more than the diversity itself; given that ethnicity is a social construct, though those two metrics are not necessarily as distinct as one might think. Finally, as the paper notes, It would be wrong to interpret our ethnicity variable as reflecting racial characteristics alone. Ethnicity might partially coincide with race, but theyre not the same thing.
Got that: it measure THE PERCEPTION OF ETHNIC DIVERSITY MORE THAN THE DIVERSITY ITSELF
I hate silly shit.
cthulu2016
(10,960 posts)I don't see why you are upset that this is not a map of DNA markers, which is what it would have to be to be a map of objective ethnic diversity.
We do not have genetic definitions of ethnicities (and probably for the best) so there cannot be an objective measure.
I agree that the headline is poor because we think of "ethnic diversity" as something good, but the study is measuring something that is more bad than good, which is self-perceived ethnic divisions.
But that hardly makes it useless.
For instance, ask Frenchmen and Germans in 1870 their ethnicity and they would probably tend to say things like, French, German, Alsatian, Bavarian, etc..
Today I suspect more French and Germans would say European than would have in 1870.
And France and Germany are less likely to fight three wars in the next two generations than they were in 1870.
I doubt I could differentiate Tutsi and Hutu in Rwanda based on any reliable physical marker. But armed with the sociological datum that they think of themselves as being as separate as Arab and African in Sudan I would better understand the giant massacres.
I do agree the map is mislabeled, but the underlying study is an interesting measurement of what it was measuring.
Not the firs time that articles and academic press releases will have had less rigor than the underlying work.
Agreed that "diversity" is too loaded a word to use here.
cali
(114,904 posts)and I agree that this could be useful insofar as potential ethic strife- if the data weren't so outdated, but it is and perception changes significantly over time.
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)IIRC, moreso than the rest of the planet combined.
treestar
(82,383 posts)How could those countries in Africa be more ethnically diverse? Or Peru? Doesn't make sense. The U.S. has immigrants from all over the world. Peru and Zimbabwe do NOT. Who friggin' goes TO Iran? Something wrong with their methods.
Marr
(20,317 posts)That line about the US being a nation of immigrants gives people the idea that we're somehow special in that respect. Every country in the western hemisphere is a nation of immigrants. The indigenous populations are almost always ethnic minorities.
There are big Chinese immigrant communities in Costa Rica, there are a lot of Japanese in Peru, the parts of Bolivia I've seen felt more like Europe than anything else, etc., etc. Everyplace has it's Little Ethiopias and Little Tokyos and whatever else you care to look for. And of course, every location has it's own little ethnic variations that we don't even recognize as foreigners.
There may be little enclaves here and there, but there is not the same amount of massive immigration over centuries. There are not tons of Japanese Bolivians but there are many Japanese Americans. Doubtful that there are a lot of Chinese Zimbabweans, though there may be a few.
The US is special in that respect (Canada and Australia may be similarly so). Latin American Countries are third world and have not attracted people from all over for centuries.
Marr
(20,317 posts)What's the essential difference between English, Germans, and Irish in North America and Portuguese, Spanish, and Italians in South America? Only your particular point of view.
Just a factoid here, in the 19th century, more Italians moved to South America than North America. The German influence in South and Central America is very pronounced, too. I see no fundamental difference apart from popular national mythology.
white (mostly Spanish and Italian) 97%, mestizo (mixed white and Amerindian ancestry), Amerindian, or other non-white groups 3%
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ar.html
That doesn't sound very diverse.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,271 posts)0.26, compared to 0.49. It is possible that Spanish and Italian descent were counted as different ethnicities in Argentina, but not in the USA - getting a consistent definition for the entire world is not easy.
treestar
(82,383 posts)The Portuguese, Spanish and Italians have come to the US in huge numbers, too. Migration from South America to the US occurs too, whereas we don't see the opposite. The US has huge numbers of immigrants from each South American country, so many of those ethnic groups are here, too.
Xithras
(16,191 posts)...is that many American's mistakenly assume that people in other countries are of a single ethnicity. They're not. Presuming that Zimbabwe consists of only people of a Zimbabwean ethnicity is about as valid as saying that all Americans are of an "American" ethicity. In truth, Zimbabwe is so diverse that it has 17 official languages...all of which originated within their own borders.
Same largely goes for Iran, which consists of at least 10 major ethnicities with distinct cultures. Many were fully independent countries and kingdoms at various times in history before being conquered by the Persians and having their land incorporated into Persia/Iran. The people we think of as "Iranian" are usually of Persian ethnicity, but there are lots of people in Persia who are not.
A map of the major ethnic groups of Iran. Persians are more than 50% of the population only in the green areas:
treestar
(82,383 posts)But, the US has immigrants from likely all ten Iranian and all 17 Zimbabwean groups. Or from at least two of them. And at least two ethnicities of just about any other country.
LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)There are a lot of Africans in France. I didn't realize it wasn't considered diverse.
pampango
(24,692 posts)In 2004, the Institut Montaigne estimated that there were 51 million (85%) White people, 6 million (10%) North African people, 2 million (3.5%) Black people and 1 million (1.5%) people of Asian origin in Metropolitan France.
In 2008, the French national institute of statistics INSEE estimated that 11.8 million foreign-born immigrants and their direct descendants (born in France) lived in France representing 19% of the country's population. More than 5 million are of European origin and about 4 million of Maghrebi origin. Immigrants aged 1850 count for 2.7 millions (10% of population aged 1850) and 5 millions for all ages (8% of population). 2nd Generation aged 1850 make up 3.1 millions (12% of 1850) and 6.5 millions for all ages (11% of population)
In 2004, a total of 140,033 people immigrated to France. Of them, 90,250 were from Africa and 13,710 from Europe. In 2008, France granted citizenship to 137,000 persons, mostly to people from Morocco, Algeria and Turkey.
France accepts about 200,000 legal immigrants each year. France is the leading asylum destination in Western Europe with an estimated 50,000 applications in 2005 (a 15% decrease from 2004). The European Union allows free movement between the member states.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France#Demographics
France's population is about 1/5 that of the US. It's immigration number is about 1/5 of the US' as well. About 2/3 of France's immigrants come from Africa with another 10% from European countries.
limpyhobbler
(8,244 posts)In China the central government encourages everyone to think of themselves as one "Chinese" ethnicity. People might be afraid to admit to pollsters that they identify with a different ethnicity. Or the poll may not have had a good sampling of people in China, possible even due to government influence.
OldEurope
(1,273 posts)Every government has ist own definitions for ethnicity. China does not accept Tibetians as an ethinicity, nor does Turkey accept Armenians or Kurds.
Liberal_in_LA
(44,397 posts)thanks for posting.
reformist2
(9,841 posts)Yes, typos in major publications bother me. Especially when they look like they might actually be spelling errors.