Seriously John Kerry - WTF did you mean by

[malaise]

the Egyptian army restored democracy?
I'd expect to hear that from Rush Scumbaugh and his fellow racists following a Pentagon overthrow of an Obama administration.

[cthulu2016]

1. C'mon. Link... annecdote... something

[malaise]

3. Here

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23543744

[cali]

2. He's just conveying his boss's official take on it

this is Obama policy.

[malaise]

4. Actually this has been US policy for decades

but people are no longer fooled.

[cali]

5. what's been U.S. policy forever?

[malaise]

6. Supporting dictators military and otherwise

while spewing nonsense about democracy and freedom

[msongs]

7. supporting brutal dictatorships in order to protect US corporations overseas and feed the MIC nt

[liberal_at_heart]

26. this is what it is. We didn't support the military takeover in Myanmar. Why are we supporting this

one? Could it be because it alligns with our military and economic ambitions?

[brooklynite]

8. So, you support theocratic authoritarian Government?

11/22/12: Egypt's President Mursi assumes sweeping powers

Egypt's President Mohammed Mursi has issued a declaration banning challenges to his decrees, laws and decisions.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20451208

I'm not a fan of Military involvement in civilian politics, but Morsi was abusing his electoral mandate and was becoming as irresponsible as Mubarek was.

[malaise]

9. More than Who - George Bush

Governors of several states including North Carolina?
This was a military coup - plain and simple.

[brooklynite]

13. Just like it was a coup when they threw out Mubarek.

[ProSense]

19. Yes, Mubarek was ousted too. n/t

[cali]

14. I suggest you read up on Al-Sisi. He's every bit as bad as Morsi and probably

quite a bit worse.

[Comrade Grumpy]

15. No, and I would vote to remove them from office. Note the verb: "vote"

That's how you change governments in democracies.

I would also argue that this horrible power grab of which Morsi was accused was actually an effort to stop Mubarek's "deep state" (Google it) from preventing a successful revolution from entrenching itself. It was the Mubarek judiciary that tried to call everything the new government did illegal. Now, a Mubarek judiciary crony is the new head of state, and the army is in charge.

The deep state has won. Where are those Armani anarchists of Tamarod now?

[millennialmax]

10. Over half the country was in the streets demanding this.

The Egyptian army handed control of Egypt back to the people.

The military sided with the majority. This was not your ordinary coup.

They call it a "democratic coup d'état," which is a response "to a popular uprising against an authoritarian or totalitarian regime and topple that regime for the limited purpose of holding the free and fair elections of civilian leaders."

A normal coup is defined as: "small, but critical, segment of the state apparatus, which is then used to displace the government from its control of the remainder."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coup_d'état

[malaise]

11. democratic coup d'état

is one hell of a stupid oxymoron. It makes no effin' sense.

[Comrade Grumpy]

16. And the "democratic coup" is being followed by "non-violent killings," right?

[malaise]

27. Ding ding we have a winner

[dipsydoodle]

17. That is a simply huge exaggeration.

Egypt's population is c. 83 million aside from which the protests were in the main cities only.

You have no means of knowing that the military sided with the majority of the population.

Calling it a democratic coup d'état is no different from calling torture enhanced interrogation - just playing with words.

Morsi remains their democratically elected leader until new elections determine otherwise.

[millennialmax]

20. Well, whatever the case, I'm not sorry for supporting an uprising against theocrats.

And I'm glad the U.S. is standing on the right side of history on this one.

[disidoro01]

25. HAHA

I spit all over my keyboard. "And I'm glad the U.S. is standing on the right side of history on this one."

[malaise]

28. 100% correct

You either believe in democracy or you do not - the meaning does not change to accommodate agendas.

[dipsydoodle]

29. Well expressed.

[snagglepuss]

30. I so disagree. Morsi and the brotherhood were using democracy to get rid of it.

This comes back to the question of whether in true democracies intolerance should be tolerated.

[malaise]

32. I don't know what you're talking about sinc Morsi was the first government

elected in Egypt from the days of the pharoahs.
Let's stop fooling ourselves - Muslim governments are now the same as communist governments - better the military. Look I hate theocracies, I hate military rule and I'll take some version of democracy over communism but no one pulls wool over my eyes including Kerry. The west has no problem with military rule, coups and all as long as its interests are being served.

[snagglepuss]

34. "In his most infamous act, Morsi astonishingly saw it justifiable to give himself

the power to unilaterally amend the constitutional declaration. He officially declared himself, albeit temporarily until his specific purposes for the time were achieved, immune to any judicial review in an act reminiscent of cartoonish fictional takes on autocrats.

He assaulted the separation of powers by handpicking an allied prosecutor-general in a manner that defied the post-revolution national consensus of letting the judiciary nominate the candidate to such a role, and whose removal remained a strong divisive point in any attempt at national reconciliation. This controllable prosecutor-general, against which almost the entire prosecutorial corps protested and nearly succeeded in firing, was used quite clearly at will to go after the private media and the opposition as a direct extension of Morsi and the Brotherhood, while substantially legally shielding the Brotherhood at the same time.

The president, the Brotherhood and its allies, continuously tried to assume an unfairly tight grip over the constitution-drafting process. They also broke promises to ensure a constitution that garnered sufficient national consensus. Instead, and under the cover of the November constitutional declaration, Morsi and the Brotherhood rushed a referendum on a disappointing and dangerous draft without real proper national debate (in a country with substantial illiteracy and areas with little access to anything but state media, which was also under Brotherhood influence), against the walkout of all opposition members, the church, civil and human rights organizations and others.


Read more: http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2013/07/morsi-brotherhood-lost-egypt-bsabry.html#ixzz2aqPu1Pwm



The above is an excellent overview of how it became apparent that the Brotherhood was intent not on building a democratic administration, but a new regime.

[dipsydoodle]

12. Well its kind of like previous events of which he's obviously proud.

Guatemala 1954 and Chile 1973. No sarcasm intended.

You may find elsewhere that the WH are back pedaling on both this and the drones in Pakistan issue. Seems he went off script. Its tragic when someone starts losing it at such an early age.

[Nevernose]

18. Egypt is not in a black and white situation.

And approaching it with binary, good and evil, right and wrong thinking is naive at best.

A military coup or a theocratic quasi-dictator. A more nuanced view would be that, either way, they're eating a political shit sandwich right now.

[millennialmax]

21. ^^This^^ eom

[liberal_at_heart]

23. it seems to me thinking in terms of secular vs. theocracy is also binary thinking.

[liberal_at_heart]

22. "restoring democracy" is code for putting people in power that agree with us more than the last guy.

[loyalsister]

33. "agreeing with us"

I have always been perplexed by the arguments that suggest our Democracy should be applied anywhere we get involved in foreign affairs. Whether it's christianizing or demanding people throw away their history and cultural norms that we find inconsistent with ours is not practical in the context of helping them rebuilding their country as allies. Proselytizing religion, human rights, women's rights, a better democracy, etc. can wait until the people can wake up without the kind of fear they have been living with. Our part here is to help stabilize Egypt under stressful circumstances- to say the least. That means accepting they government they are slowly developing.

[ProSense]

24. What did people envision happening in Egypt?

Here was the scene: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023137847

This was a revolution. The military involvement could be viewed as opportunistic, but it sided with the masses. Had the military sided with Morsi, the outcome would likely have been catastrophic.

Juan Cole:

The argument over whether what happened in Egypt on Wednesday, July 3, was a coup or a revolution is really an argument over the legitimacy of the actions taken. If it was a revolution, it was perhaps a manifestation of the popular will, and so would have a sort of Rousseauan legitimacy. If it was merely a military coup against an elected president, then it lacks that legitimacy.

In fact, there certainly was a popular revolutionary element to the events, with literally millions of protesters coming out on Sunday and after, in the biggest demonstrations in Egyptian history. You can’t dismiss that as merely a coup d’etat from on top by a handful of officers.

But on Wednesday there was also a military coup, provoked by the officer corps’ increasing dissatisfaction with President Muhammad Morsi as well as a determination not to stand by as the country threatened to devolve into chaos, as rival street crowds confronted one another.

<...>

In the end, the revolution and the coup worked in tandem. They were a “revocouption.” Such a conjunction is not unusual in history. The American Revolution against the British was a war before it issued ultimately in a Federal government, and the first president was the general who led the troops. Likewise, the 1949 Communist Revolution in China was not just a matter of the civilian party taking over; there had been a war of liberation against Japan and a civil war between Mao Ze Dong’s Communist troops and the Guomindang, and Mao’s leadership of the Red Army was central to the revolution.

- more -

http://www.juancole.com/2013/07/egypts-revocouption-democracy.html

People love to talk revolution, but I doubt most of them think about the implications.

[malaise]

31. Before we talk revolution we should imagine that it's taking place

in our own countries and then decide if a coup is the restoration of democracy.
Envision the US military ousting Obama and having him under house arrest because the Tea Party folks are demonstrating. Then get back to me.

[ProSense]

35. I understand your point, but

"Before we talk revolution we should imagine that it's taking place in our own countries and then decide if a coup is the restoration of democracy. Envision the US military ousting Obama and having him under house arrest because the Tea Party folks are demonstrating. Then get back to me."

...imagine if the American people rose up in mass protest to inequality, greed and the imminent fascist state that many envision, and a military crackdown ensued.

I don't think the scenario you described is remotely similar to Egypt's. After ousting Mubarek, Egyptians apparently expected a move away from the kind of dictatorial rule that Morsi seem to be moving toward, and counter to his promise. For such an uprising to occur after an election, there had to be mass discontent.

I'm not saying the military didn't take advantage of the situation, but as Juan Cole piece points out, there was a revolution.

If Morsi hadn't stepped down, what would the situation look like today? What if the military had sided with Morsi, instead of the protesters, would that have been a better outcome?

[malaise]

37. I lived through the creation of instability

and the virtual overthrow of the legitimately elected government via both the barrel of M16s and the blatant theft of elections. That government had merely introduced policies to facilitate social mobility for the vast majority of our citizens.
I don't give a shit about Morsi or the Egyptian government but I will not have my intelligence insulted with rubbish about a military coup being the restoration of democracy. That is bullshit and you know it.

[ProSense]

40. You

"I don't give a shit about Morsi or the Egyptian government but I will not have my intelligence insulted with rubbish about a military coup being the restoration of democracy. That is bullshit and you know it."

...are trying to object to a situation and, at the same time, dismiss Morsi. No one is trying to insult your intelligence. The reality something had to happen in Egypt, and if you can't say what that something is and justify it, as Kerry, Juan Cole did, then what is your point?

There was a revolution and the military sided with the protesters. Now what was your alternative vision? What should have or should happen. There will be elections in Egypt, right?

[Octafish]

36. If he doesn't, War Inc can't sell Egypt the war goods.

Another stupid law Congress peaceniks passed to prevent sale of war materiel to war mongers.

[malaise]

38. Ding ding we have a winner

[Octafish]

39. Merci, beaucoup, mon cheri.

Avez-vous vu cela?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023394443

Je sais que ce n'est pas un ballon météorologique, mais vraiment ...