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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWith little fanfare, the TSA has expanded to sporting events, music festivals, rodeos, weighstations
The T.S.A., huh, said Donald Neubauer of Greenville, Ohio, as he walked past the squad. I thought they were just at the airports.
With little fanfare, the agency best known for airport screenings has vastly expanded its reach to sporting events, music festivals, rodeos, highway weigh stations and train terminals. Not everyone is happy.
T.S.A. and local law enforcement officials say the teams are a critical component of the nations counterterrorism efforts, but some members of Congress, auditors at the Department of Homeland Security and civil liberties groups are sounding alarms. The teams are also raising hackles among passengers who call them unnecessary and intrusive.
...
They even admit that this is mostly Security Theater. And that sounds so sweetly benign, doesn't it? But the effect of this isn't, in the end, to make little old ladies feel safer by confiscating the 8oz bottle of Geritol in their handbags. It's to train citizens to submit to authorities without probable cause. That's exactly what's happened in airports, after all. Americans are so docile about it that people in other countries are astonished to see us taking off our shoes and otherwise disrobing at airport security without even being told. (They don't have to.)
If what you desire is to make the Bill of Rights an anachronism, this is the sort of thing that works over time to make people wonder why they ever cared that they had any privacy or right to demand that authorities have good reason to stop and search them. Arguments against it already have the tone of something from another era
http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2013/08/vipr-is-pits-teaching-us-to-reflexively.html
Koios
(154 posts)... and grows!! Plus even my city, Kirkland, got some anti-"terror" buckos and with it a fancy smancy command vehicle (uber high tech bus) which comes out during parades, and hopefully, making is real changes in how safe we are in these parts: like catching someone littering.
Will Osama bin Laden ever stop seeing the success of his 9/11 victory paying off over and over again????
customerserviceguy
(25,183 posts)Getting the citizenry to quietly accept the war on drugs, too. They like to use vehicles, just like dictators:
Koios
(154 posts)... might be overstating it a smidge. But indeed, treating a public health problem in criminal courts is folly, too. More people are using.
Meanwhile, the war on terror just makes us a more desirable target, and will also create more danger than it saves us from, I fear.
customerserviceguy
(25,183 posts)But it was the first thing I thought of in this situation. We always adopt the tactics of the "enemy", and relabel them as acceptable when it is for our purposes.
awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)I don't think you did. People keep saying we aren't as bad as Russia, and that is true. My question is- when do we put a stop to what is going on? Do we have to get as bad as Russia before we get off our lazy asses and do something about it? Because if we wait that long, it will be too late. It can happen here.
chimpymustgo
(12,774 posts)-edit-
The problem with T.S.A. stopping and searching people in public places outside the airport is that there are no real legal standards, or probable cause, said Khaliah Barnes, administrative law counsel at the Electronic Privacy Information Center in Washington. Its something that is easily abused because the reason that they are conducting the stops is shrouded in secrecy.
-edit-
awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)at bus stops. Been doing it since Bush was president. They are out of control.
diverdownjt
(702 posts)I don't know how else to say it.
This is not the country I was born into. My father fought in Vietnam and he
thought he was securing our freedom. He's a Teabagger now...and I can't
reach him on any level. Not while Faux news is broadcasting or Brush
Lintball is spewing his hate. "that's my boy " he says. While I try not
to vomit and lose my inheritance. If I didn't need the money so bad I
might write it off....but since I haven't won the lotto yet I'm still gonna need
it. God I really hate this shit with all my being.
Koios
(154 posts)... I think our response to the terrorist attack was indeed exactly what al Qaeda wanted: be terrified. And further, that we over reacted beyond the imagination, resulting in 1000s more American deaths and diminished economic strength.
It didn't just work. It worked better than they ever could have imagined.
In truth, there's only one way to fight terrorism: do not be terrorized.
Scuba
(53,475 posts)VWolf
(3,944 posts)THIS.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)RC
(25,592 posts)He was in the employ of the same people that are now enjoying the pay off, over and over again.
you would be the first to howl if something awful would happen at these events : " where was security ? "THEY " should have prevented this from happening .
mrmpa
(4,033 posts)Security is fine, TSA & other Federal Agencies at private events, you're crazy. I'm pissed right now at the NFL, because of what you are permitted & not permitted to bring into stadiums.
Women can have nothing larger than a clutch purse, no fannie packs, see through bags only (they must have the NFL logo on them) etc. Nothing has happened at an NFL stadium, that I know of. Last year there were not these tight stipulations, and there were no problems.
I am tired of organizations and people trying to put fear into us. There is nothing to be afraid of. The only fear I have, is how far our government & private companies in employ of the US have gone.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Homeland Security? It's an unfortunate waste if your town was never a likely target.
NYC was underfunded and makes up it's shortfall out of it's own pocket. What a dumb system!
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Rodeos, less so.
phantom power
(25,966 posts)so I agree those at least make sense from a mandate perspective. I think the rub is that these things are being done with no real evidence that they accomplish the goal of "increasing security." So, while it's dubious that Americans are benefitting from improved security, it's less dubious that they are becoming used to the ubiquitous presence patrols, searches, checkpoints, etc. The trappings of a police state.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Not sure how else they could do that.
Logical
(22,457 posts)Recursion
(56,582 posts)A Federal agency charged with securing US transportation probably should care about weigh stations and train stations.
A HERETIC I AM
(24,367 posts)I mean, if they suspect something, are they going to unload the thing at the scale? And if they find nothing, will they reload it?
The more I hear about this shit, the happier I am that I haul new cars.
"I do not submit to any searches".
Now go fuck yourself and let me get down the damned roadway. (not directed at you, Recursion....just sayin')
jmowreader
(50,557 posts)If they suspected a load strongly enough to unload it, they would escort the truck to a warehouse they had contracted with, unload and inspect the cargo, and reload it.
A HERETIC I AM
(24,367 posts)Wow. Never noticed before in the 5 or 6 thousand scales I've been through over the last 25 years!
Hells bells, Jmow, I would have thought you knew me well enough to know by now that I didn't just fall off the yam wagon.
I don't see it happening and I don't see many changes as far as what happens at scales. The TSA is already at the ports and borders. If they just want to check bills of lading, fine but I just can't see them stripping 53' dry vans and reloading them, regardless if it is done at the scales or at some nearby warehouse.
But, as I said, I haul cars. If they want to climb up on my open rack and peer into windows, they can be my guest.
jmowreader
(50,557 posts)Cops aren't that ambitious.
You've seen those radiation detectors they've got at the Kentucky weigh stations? If one of those started ringing while you were going through and your BOL didn't have a good explanation for it, you KNOW they'd unload you.
A HERETIC I AM
(24,367 posts)Fl has some sort of detectors also, shaped like big shoe boxes aimed at an angle as you drive over the 45 mph scale before they either split you to the platform or bypass you.
It's my understanding that some of these devices are density sensitive, so if they pick up a serious change in the density of the load, it will flag.
I am on and off the Port of Jacksonville regularly as well and they have these big yellow devices on both the inbound and outbound lanes. Not sure what they do.
Port of Brunswick has nothing, as it is strictly autos and grains.
yesphan
(1,587 posts)horses and bulls. Forms of transportation.
VWolf
(3,944 posts)some kind of ball is being transported.
jmowreader
(50,557 posts)Read transportation law and you will learn that a truck terminal is any place at which goods are loaded or unloaded...so if you go to Lowe's, buy a skid of concrete and have it delivered, your house is a terminal until you get your concrete. Because rodeos are, legally, terminals and TSA has the right to inspect everyone at a terminal...I could point out that rodeos are extremely popular with sovereign citizens and I would advise watching their asses very closely...
Vinnie From Indy
(10,820 posts)It is fucking insanity that people do not see the creeping militarization of our civil society.
dixiegrrrrl
(60,010 posts)Exactly.
and teh only way to stop them is to have enough people intentionally avoid the venues that host them.
I am no t optimistic about that happening.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)Yes, that is the purpose. Thank you.
warrant46
(2,205 posts)"Hey boy come over here !! What do you have in your pockets? ", said the TSA Protector.
Rex
(65,616 posts)I for one welcome our new TSA/NSA overlords!
MotherPetrie
(3,145 posts)woo me with science
(32,139 posts)questionseverything
(9,652 posts),<<<T.S.A. officials respond that the random searches are special needs or administrative searches that are exempt from probable cause because they further the governments need to prevent terrorist attacks.>>>>
i do not remember an exception in amendment 4 about "special needs" or "admin searches"
did the powers that be pass an amendment to the constitution in "secret"?
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)Thank you. This must be stopped.
obxhead
(8,434 posts)It was done with a strong bipartisan effort and resigned into law by the current admin.
The patriot act nullifies the constitution in ways we don't even know about yet.
questionseverything
(9,652 posts)it takes an amendment to change it
what you meant to say is..the patriot act's secret interpretation illegally trys to change the Constitution in ways we havent been told yet
awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)Fearless
(18,421 posts)If it tries it's unconstitutional.
awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)Indefinite detentions, cruel and unusual punishment, and denial of speedy trials are all possible if they just suspect one is a terrorist. In theory, those are unconstitutional, but they are happening.
Fearless
(18,421 posts)RC
(25,592 posts)You know, the one that requires a secret court order to open and read?
questionseverything
(9,652 posts)secret decoder ring
treestar
(82,383 posts)JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)equipment. This is just your friendly, elected corruption at work.
Auggie
(31,167 posts)As these companies become larger they will lobby for more surveillance. It's mega profits, operating under the facade of homeland security and paid for by OUR TAXES.
leftstreet
(36,106 posts)(Yet)
And the VIPR teams consist of federal air marshals, various law enforcement etc
Public
Union
Auggie
(31,167 posts)Response to JDPriestly (Reply #11)
Post removed
ananda
(28,858 posts)..
KamaAina
(78,249 posts)What on Earth do sporting events, music festivals, rodeos and the like have to do with transportation? Except maybe New York Jets games.
progressoid
(49,988 posts)KamaAina
(78,249 posts)leftstreet
(36,106 posts)http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/06/us/tsa-expands-duties-beyond-airport-security.html
zeemike
(18,998 posts)Cause you will have to show them at any time at the checkpoint.
Yep we are being conditioned to accept total surveillance and total control...Orwell would never have thought it would be so easy.
AnotherMcIntosh
(11,064 posts)These kids didn't harm anyone.
These kids aren't a threat to anyone.
The danger is from the TSA employees.
MADem
(135,425 posts)The concern lies with their parents:
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2012/10/20121014102539659862.html
And we don't "profile" in USA, so there ya go.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)My only point is to note how things actually are, and leave adults to mull over the implications of that reality, and the risk-reward issues, themselves.
But hey, I'd be disappointed in DU if someone didn't step up and insist that they know what I think or how I feel. It's a substitute for discussion, these days.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)"is to note how things actually are, and leave adults to mull over the implications of that reality, and the risk-reward issues, themselves. " What? We are to note how things actually are. As compared to what? "And leave adults to mull over...." are you suggesting we arent adults and you are? And the adults are to "mull over the implications of reality." You arent series. You want us to leave it to the adults, I assume you include yourself, "to mull over the implications of reality." To do that I will definitely need some weed.
Now risk / reward is something we can talk about. How many tens or hundreds of billions of dollars of our money are you willing to give Booz-Allen for the promise of security from the nasty terrorists?? Does the number depend on the color of the terrorist danger? Please you must have a figure. Is the risk great enough to tax everyone into poverty?
Side with those of us fighting for our freedoms and liberties and not those like Gen Clapper and Gen Alexander that want us to live in an authoritarian state. You have to choose.
MADem
(135,425 posts)What I said is what I said. Click the link, read the article. It talks about how children are indoctrinated to be bombers, and they are easily molded to do as they are told and obey parents or other authorities. That's why children get searched--that was the post I was responding to, replete with photos.
I also pointed out that we do not "profile" people. I didn't endorse profiling, I simply stated a fact. Other countries DO profile, and they do it con brio. I'll bet some kids get searched more as a consequence, and other kids don't get searched at all.
If you aren't an adult, as I assume everyone participating here is, then bow out of the conversation.
Your last paragraph is quite rich.
Side with those of us fighting for our freedoms and liberties and not those like Gen Clapper and Gen Alexander that want us to live in an authoritarian state. You have to choose.
Let me paraphrase what you basically said:
"You're either with us or agin' us."
That sounds familiar to me--I didn't like it back then, either.
I think this issue--the utility of the TSA not just in specific circumstances, but as a whole-- deserves a complete and open review, robust discussion, recommendations to improve the program or, alternatively, find other methodologies to make travel safer-- not declarations of fealty to a ginned up "cause" based on the fact that you don't like this guy or that one.
That said, my comments were about TSA searching little kids, and they WERE quite straightforward.
Have a good one....
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)Looks like you choose the side of the authoritarian state that searches children and grannie in wheel chairs. Funny you call me paranoid when you think we need the TSA searching everyone, everyday, everywhere. Are we in that much danger. How paranoid do you have to be to give Booz-Allen 50 billion dollars to spy on us?? You choose Gen Clapper and GEn Alexander over sen Wyden, Grayson, and Valerie Plame.
Whether you want to admit it, you've chosen sides.
MADem
(135,425 posts)A class war, you say? The Lords versus the Serfs? The Rich vs. The Poor? Not sure where you're going there, and what "class" has to do with TSA searches--unless they fondle you more gently if you're holding a first class ticket?
And what astoundingly unmitigated NERVE you have, making your pompous declaration as to where I stand, finding me wanting without any evidence, and convicting me without a trial.
Aren't you the efficient judge, jury and executioner!
And you've got the brass to call ME "authoritarian?"
I think you are unclear as to the meaning of the term!
I gotta save this post of yours, it's too rich!
84. We are in a class war. And I dont care if you like it or not, you will have to choose sides.
View profile
Looks like you choose the side of the authoritarian state that searches children and grannie in wheel chairs. Funny you call me paranoid when you think we need the TSA searching everyone, everyday, everywhere. Are we in that much danger. How paranoid do you have to be to give Booz-Allen 50 billion dollars to spy on us?? You choose Gen Clapper and GEn Alexander over sen Wyden, Grayson, and Valerie Plame.
Whether you want to admit it, you've chosen sides.
I do hope you're all right, though, because that's some of the most disordered logic I've ever seen come out of you. I said none of those things, I hold none of your accusatory views, FWIW, and anyone reading what I said in this thread knows that. Except you, apparently.
Surprising, certainly, even as it's humorous....
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)makes it clear that you dont side with the 99%. It isnt me that makes that choice, but you.
Here is an interesting post about Larry Summers. It's interesting who is missing from the discussion.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014560337
I see you've sunk to the use of ridicule and Sid's trademark emoticon. I guess that means this discussion is over.
It's clear you and I are on different sides.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Not one accusation you've made is true. Not a single one. And pity for you--names will never hurt me.
If you want to make a point, here's a suggestion--argue about ideas, don't label people falsely.
It makes you look like someone who likes internet fights just for the sport of it.
It is clear that we are on different sides--I am on the side where adults discuss issues in a reasonable way, you are on the side that flings shit at people you "think" aren't on "your" team.
This discussion isn't "over"--it never got started. I will say that it stands as a monument to your inability to argue coherently. You really should rethink your approach to people. It's unsavory.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)blackspade
(10,056 posts)These perverts should be ashamed.
hootinholler
(26,449 posts)Do they actually have arrest authority?
I'm waiting to be stopped by these fucks on the Metro in DC. I've seen them hanging out on platforms but so far they haven't said boo to me.
I'm sorry, I do not consent to any searches.
AnotherMcIntosh
(11,064 posts)If they are not all U.S. citizens, do they all have green cards?
GoneOffShore
(17,339 posts)If they attempt to detain you, ask for a real LEO.
Get their names, ask to speak to a supervisor - i.e. a "three striper" - If you're in an train, bus or Metro station get the station manager involved as well.
If you're in an airport ask for the FSD (use the initials - Federal Security Director).
mimi85
(1,805 posts)will destroy ya. I think "they've" won only if you choose to let them. I choose not to overreact to this BS. Life is far too short to wander around in a state of fear (I have cancer and I am definitely not going to spend the rest of my days worrying about this crap). Of course, we could go to Russia, visit Mr. Snowden and see how much nicer the Russians are in surveillance tactics than the U.S.
It's a gorgeous day here and we're going for a sunset picnic to the beach and let others turn gray worrying about all this scary stuff.
felix_numinous
(5,198 posts)Apologists need to spell this out for the rest of us. Armed guards in every town, at every public event? Check
points between states? Swat teams parading their weaponry everywhere? Is this the country you want? If so, why?
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)task of trying to convince themselves that the President is working for them.
Anyway, here goes...
There is no such thing as enough.
The country has always done things like this.
There never was a time when things were better.
You've never been freer in your life. President Rmoney!?!
Nothing can be done because there are republicans roaming the earth.
If it weren't for the police, the terrorists would have shot you and your whole family by now.
Now is not the time to criticize.
We'll get right on this after the mid-terms.
I'm sure I've left many out, but I hope I've served as an adequate facsimile.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)The operation resulted in several arrests by the local transit police, mostly for passengers with warrants for prostitution and minor drug possession.
Wait, what? You mean it was less about terra than about filling for-profit prisons with people busted for pot possession?
Do tell.
MindPilot
(12,693 posts)And A TSA wants to search me, am I under any obligation to submit? Since I am no longer in the "you have to waive your 4th Amendment rights if you want to get on board" realm, wouldn't a TSA agent have to demonstrate probable cause?
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Particularly if yr. in Texas.
http://gawker.com/judge-ignores-pleas-of-woman-arrested-for-protesting-se-512835541
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)have a 1% badge.
avaistheone1
(14,626 posts)It's been sooooo effective.
Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)Far as I'm concerned, they can keep the rodeos, but can fuck right off regarding everything and everyone else.
blackspade
(10,056 posts)Our own government has done more damage to the social fabric of this country that any terrorist group could have hoped.
All in the name of profit and control.
Elmergantry
(884 posts)Said this once, say it again,
After 911 it was "Why we need a "professional" "competent" federalized airport security instead of those lousy rent-a-cops who failed to stop the hijackers!"
All Dems voted yay, virtually all Repubs say a few as well.
Libertarian minded Ron Paul was against it, for fear of what is happening now.
Liberal_in_LA
(44,397 posts)Elmergantry
(884 posts)Remember the movie "Airplane" when security let RPG wielding terrorists thru security but slammed granny up against the wall for a cavity search?
Seemed funny at the time...
CakeGrrl
(10,611 posts)Do I take off my shoes? Yes, because I know they expect it.
They make an exception for people over a certain age.
If they don't require you to take off your shoes any longer, I won't just blindly do it. It's not all about subtle training and mindless compliance. I'm clearly aware of what I'm being asked to do.
The laws need to change from Congress down, or change the way laws are made.
GiaGiovanni
(1,247 posts)kick