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edhopper

(33,543 posts)
Thu Feb 23, 2012, 10:45 AM Feb 2012

The right wing asswipes get it immediately wrong, but still control the debate

They said an unregulated market was the only way to grow the economy.
As soon as the 60 years of regulations are removed, the economy collapses in the biggest downturn since the Great Depression.
The say we need more tax cuts, after the massive GWB tax cut lead to the poorest job creation and lowest revenue in decades.
They proposed the idea of preemptive military action. (a morally corrupt idea). The first time it is tried in Iraq, it is a complete disaster. Every reason it was used turns out to be wrong or a lie and it is one of the biggest foreign policy debacles in our history.
And yet the GOP still propose the EXACT SAME THING!! And the wagging dog media won't point out the simple truth that these policies all failed spectacularly. The Dems seem just too timid or stupid to state the obvious truth.

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The right wing asswipes get it immediately wrong, but still control the debate (Original Post) edhopper Feb 2012 OP
This is the essence of "truthiness" Skinner Feb 2012 #1
How Orwellian. edhopper Feb 2012 #2
Mister, we could use another FDR again deutsey Feb 2012 #3
Obama could have been FDR edhopper Feb 2012 #5
And this libtodeath Feb 2012 #16
I thought that true when the discussion came to the auto bailout PRETZEL Feb 2012 #4
And they will not be called on it by edhopper Feb 2012 #6
You couldn't possibly be referring PRETZEL Feb 2012 #8
it's worse than that though - in at least one case hfojvt Feb 2012 #7
The cause of the collapse was edhopper Feb 2012 #9
Let's not forget . . . gratuitous Feb 2012 #13
Less than ten years is a very short time CJCRANE Feb 2012 #10
It's depressing that with a Democratic president we've still spent the last 6 months Johonny Feb 2012 #11
They have forgotten that bush was even Angry Dragon Feb 2012 #12
The Dems aren't so much timid or stupid... ljm2002 Feb 2012 #14
I'd like to say you are wrong. edhopper Feb 2012 #15
They control the debate because we let them Spike89 Feb 2012 #17

Skinner

(63,645 posts)
1. This is the essence of "truthiness"
Thu Feb 23, 2012, 10:53 AM
Feb 2012

It doesn't matter that it's not right. What matters is that it feels like it's right.

deutsey

(20,166 posts)
3. Mister, we could use another FDR again
Thu Feb 23, 2012, 11:07 AM
Feb 2012

Those were the days:


FDR's speech before the 1936 Democratic National Convention

...Philadelphia is a good city in which to write American history. This is fitting ground on which to reaffirm the faith of our fathers; to pledge ourselves to restore to the people a wider freedom; to give to 1936 as the founders gave to 1776 - an American way of life.

That very word freedom, in itself and of necessity, suggests freedom from some restraining power. In 1776 we sought freedom from the tyranny of a political autocracy - from the eighteenth-century royalists who held special privileges from the crown. It was to perpetuate their privilege that they governed without the consent of the governed; that they denied the right of free assembly and free speech; that they restricted the worship of God; that they put the average man's property and the average man's life in pawn to the mercenaries of dynastic power; that they regimented the people.

And so it was to win freedom from the tyranny of political autocracy that the American Revolution was fought. That victory gave the business of governing into the hands of the average man, who won the right with his neighbors to make and order his own destiny through his own government. Political tyranny was wiped out at Philadelphia on July 4, 1776.

Since that struggle, however, man's inventive genius released new forces in our land which reordered the lives of our people. The age of machinery, of railroads; of steam and electricity; the telegraph and the radio; mass production, mass distribution - all of these combined to bring forward a new civilization and with it a new problem for those who sought to remain free.

For out of this modern civilization economic royalists carved new dynasties. New kingdoms were built upon concentration of control over material things. Through new uses of corporations, banks and securities, new machinery of industry and agriculture, of labor and capital - all undreamed of by the Fathers - the whole structure of modern life was impressed into this royal service.

There was no place among this royalty for our many thousands of small-businessmen and merchants who sought to make a worthy use of the American system of initiative and profit. They were no more free than the worker or the farmer. Even honest and progressive-minded men of wealth, aware of their obligation to their generation, could never know just where they fitted into this dynastic scheme of things.

It was natural and perhaps human that the privileged princes of these new economic dynasties, thirsting for power, reached out for control over government itself. They created a new despotism and wrapped it in the robes of legal sanction. In its service new mercenaries sought to regiment the people, their labor, and their property. And as a result the average man once more confronts the problem that faced the Minute Man.

The hours men and women worked, the wages they received, the conditions of their labor - these had passed beyond the control of the people, and were imposed by this new industrial dictatorship. The savings of the average family, the capital of the small-businessmen, the investments set aside for old age - other people's money - these were tools which the new economic royalty used to dig itself in.

Those who tilled the soil no longer reaped the rewards which were their right. The small measure of their gains was decreed by men in distant cities.

Throughout the nation, opportunity was limited by monopoly. Individual initiative was crushed in the cogs of a great machine. The field open for free business was more and more restricted. Private enterprise, indeed, became too private. It became privileged enterprise, not free enterprise.

An old English judge once said: "Necessitous men are not free men." Liberty requires opportunity to make a living - a living decent according to the standard of the time, a living which gives man not only enough to live by, but something to live for.

For too many of us the political equality we once had won was meaningless in the face of economic inequality. A small group had concentrated into their own hands an almost complete control over other people's property, other people's money, other people's labor - other people's lives. For too many of us life was no longer free; liberty no longer real; men could no longer follow the pursuit of happiness.

Against economic tyranny such as this, the American citizen could appeal only to the organized power of government. The collapse of 1929 showed up the despotism for what it was. The election of 1932 was the people's mandate to end it. Under that mandate it is being ended.

The royalists of the economic order have conceded that political freedom was the business of the government, but they have maintained that economic slavery was nobody's business. They granted that the government could protect the citizen in his right to vote, but they denied that the government could do anything to protect the citizen in his right to work and his right to live.

Today we stand committed to the proposition that freedom is no half-and-half affair. If the average citizen is guaranteed equal opportunity in the polling place, he must have equal opportunity in the market place.

These economic royalists complain that we seek to overthrow the institutions of America. What they really complain of is that we seek to take away their power. Our allegiance to American institutions requires the overthrow of this kind of power. In vain they seek to hide behind the flag and the Constitution. In their blindness they forget what the flag and the Constitution stand for. Now, as always, they stand for democracy, not tyranny; for freedom, not subjection; and against a dictatorship by mob rule and the over-privileged alike.

The brave and clear platform adopted by this convention, to which I heartily subscribe, sets forth that government in a modern civilization has certain inescapable obligations to its citizens, among which are protection of the family and the home, the establishment of a democracy of opportunity, and aid to those overtaken by disaster.

But the resolute enemy within our gates is ever ready to beat down our words unless in greater courage we will fight for them.

For more than three years we have fought for them. This convention, in every word and deed, has pledged that the fight will go on.

The defeats and victories of these years have given to us as a people a new understanding of our government and of ourselves. Never since the early days of the New England town meeting have the affairs of government been so widely discussed and so clearly appreciated. It has been brought home to us that the only effective guide for the safety of this most worldly of worlds, the greatest guide of all, is moral principle.

We do not see faith, hope, and charity as unattainable ideals, but we use them as stout supports of a nation fighting the fight for freedom in a modern civilization.

Faith - in the soundness of democracy in the midst of dictatorships.

Hope - renewed because we know so well the progress we have made.

Charity - in the true spirit of that grand old word. For charity literally translated from the original means love, the love that understands, that does not merely share the wealth of the giver, but in true sympathy and wisdom helps men to help themselves.

We seek not merely to make government a mechanical implement, but to give it the vibrant personal character that is the very embodiment of human charity.

We are poor indeed if this nation cannot afford to lift from every recess of American life the dread fear of the unemployed that they are not needed in the world. We cannot afford to accumulate a deficit in the books of human fortitude.

In the place of the palace of privilege we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity.

It is a sobering thing, my friends, to be a servant of this great cause. We try in our daily work to remember that the cause belongs not to us, but to the people. The standard is not in the hands of you and me alone. It is carried by America. We seek daily to profit from experience, to learn to do better as our task proceeds.

Governments can err, presidents do make mistakes, but the immortal Dante tells us that Divine justice weighs the sins of the cold-blooded and the sins of the warm-hearted on different scales.

Better the occasional faults of a government that lives in a spirit of charity than the consistent omissions of a government frozen in the ice of its own indifference.

There is a mysterious cycle in human events. To some generations much is given. Of other generations much is expected. This generation of Americans has a rendezvous with destiny.

In this world of our in other lands, there are some people, who, in times past, have lived and fought for freedom, and seem to have grown too weary to carry on the fight. They have sold their heritage of freedom for the illusion of a living. They have yielded their democracy.

I believe in my heart that only our success can stir their ancient hope. They begin to know that here in America we are waging a great and successful war. It is not alone a war against want and destitution and economic demoralization. It is more than that; it is a war for the survival of democracy. We are fighting to save a great and precious form of government for ourselves and for the world.


I accept the commission you have tendered me. I join with you. I am enlisted for the duration of the war.

libtodeath

(2,888 posts)
16. And this
Thu Feb 23, 2012, 05:24 PM
Feb 2012

“The Economic Bill of Rights”

Excerpt from President Roosevelt's January 11, 1944 message to the Congress of the United States on the State of the Union

It is our duty now to begin to lay the plans and determine the strategy for the winning of a lasting peace and the establishment of an American standard of living higher than ever before known. We cannot be content, no matter how high that general standard of living may be, if some fraction of our people—whether it be one-third or one-fifth or one-tenth—is ill-fed, ill-clothed, ill-housed, and insecure.

This Republic had its beginning, and grew to its present strength, under the protection of certain inalienable political rights—among them the right of free speech, free press, free worship, trial by jury, freedom from unreasonable searches and seizures. They were our rights to life and liberty.

As our nation has grown in size and stature, however—as our industrial economy expanded—these political rights proved inadequate to assure us equality in the pursuit of happiness.

We have come to a clear realization of the fact that true individual freedom cannot exist without economic security and independence. “Necessitous men are not free men.” People who are hungry and out of a job are the stuff of which dictatorships are made.

In our day these economic truths have become accepted as self-evident. We have accepted, so to speak, a second Bill of Rights under which a new basis of security and prosperity can be established for all—regardless of station, race, or creed.

Among these are:

The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the nation;

The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;

The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;

The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;

The right of every family to a decent home;

The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health;

The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment;

The right to a good education.

All of these rights spell security. And after this war is won we must be prepared to move forward, in the implementation of these rights, to new goals of human happiness and well-being.

America’s own rightful place in the world depends in large part upon how fully these and similar rights have been carried into practice for our citizens.

PRETZEL

(3,245 posts)
4. I thought that true when the discussion came to the auto bailout
Thu Feb 23, 2012, 11:08 AM
Feb 2012

everyone one of them, without exception said that it was wrong for the government to step in to help the auto industry. Each of them, said that they would let the industry fail then restructure through bankruptcy.

But, it was ok when the gov't helped the airline industry (Sanatorium)

But, look at those foreign manufacturing plants that are non-union (Gingrich) that are doing just great.

Hey, let everyone fend for themselves (Paul)

They should go bankrupt then maybe private money (Rmoney) can come in and scavenge the carcass.

Yeah, wrong and wrong again, and again and again.

edhopper

(33,543 posts)
6. And they will not be called on it by
Thu Feb 23, 2012, 11:12 AM
Feb 2012

the MSM. And the Dems will apologize for it as a necessary evil, rather than champion it as the correct policies.

PRETZEL

(3,245 posts)
8. You couldn't possibly be referring
Thu Feb 23, 2012, 11:19 AM
Feb 2012

to the "Liberal" media now would you? Hell, of course not, that would be against their marching orders.

And, this time I'm not so sure the Dems will apologize for it. GM has been a huge success and that should be the model.

Jon Huntsman made a pretty salient point this morning on MoJo that I think should be used and used often against the attacks. It was basically (and which I agree) that the health of our economy is a matter of national security.

hfojvt

(37,573 posts)
7. it's worse than that though - in at least one case
Thu Feb 23, 2012, 11:13 AM
Feb 2012

Democrats are proposing more tax cuts too. That's been Obama's big jobs program for the last two years - tax cuts. Obama is still proposing to extend about 80% of the Bush tax cuts, permanently. Even he agreed, on his first day in office, that tax increases, even on the rich, would be bad for the economy.

So why wouldn't the Republicans propose more tax cuts? It is something everybody agrees on.

As for regulations. Say what?

Immediately?

Glass-steagal was repealed back in the 1990s. What? 1998? 1999? The economy did not collapse until late 2008. In between we had about ten years of prosperity. Go ahead. Compare the unemployment rate in Bush's first three years to that of Obama's first three years.

2001- 4.7 * 2009 - 9.3
2002 - 5.8 * 2010 - 9.6
2003 - 6.0 * 2011 - 8.9
2004 - 5.5
2005 - 5.1
2006 - 4.6
2007 - 4.6


De-regulation was more like smoking than it was like a car accident. The injuries, or death, did not happen right away. They happened years later.

edhopper

(33,543 posts)
9. The cause of the collapse was
Thu Feb 23, 2012, 11:46 AM
Feb 2012

primarily the housing bubble and the unregulated mortgage backed CDOs.
It was the removal of Glass/Steagel that allowed that. Yes it took a few years to run it's course. But the cause was an unregulated financial sector which started immediately after the regulations were removed. There was on self regulating market place, which the right wing asswipes always claim there is.

gratuitous

(82,849 posts)
13. Let's not forget . . .
Thu Feb 23, 2012, 12:54 PM
Feb 2012

Two elective invasions and occupations halfway around the globe, whilst cutting revenues received from the prime financial beneficaries of our empire-building ways. That certainly didn't help our economic picture.

CJCRANE

(18,184 posts)
10. Less than ten years is a very short time
Thu Feb 23, 2012, 12:06 PM
Feb 2012

to go from surpluses and general prosperity to almost total economic collapse. It took a few years to inflate the bubble but only an instant to burst it.

And of course unemployment was lower in Bush's first three years. He didn't come to power just after a financial crash.

Johonny

(20,827 posts)
11. It's depressing that with a Democratic president we've still spent the last 6 months
Thu Feb 23, 2012, 12:26 PM
Feb 2012

on nothing but debates over conservative policies. Both social and economic policies. That a complete nothing like Rick Santorum can steer the media into a pointless debate on contraceptives or personhood is frankly just embarrassing. No conservative idea is ever so totally reputed as to not gather media steam or and over again in an endless cycle of B.S.

Occupy wall street crowd was totally dismissed by the media in the better part of a week because their message was too "incoherent". Yet debate after debate no matter how incoherent the policies of the GOP we must talk about them. I have to reconsider contraception and allowing people to adopt regardless of race or religion. Really in 2012. It's just embarrassing.

Angry Dragon

(36,693 posts)
12. They have forgotten that bush was even
Thu Feb 23, 2012, 12:34 PM
Feb 2012

president so in their minds most of this is Clinton's and Obama's fault

ljm2002

(10,751 posts)
14. The Dems aren't so much timid or stupid...
Thu Feb 23, 2012, 01:04 PM
Feb 2012

...as they are bought.

Not all of them, and not as egregiously as the Republicans. They'll still vote now and then against the interests of Big Business. But by and large, all of our politicians answer to the monied interests who pay for their campaigns.

It's just the way things are nowadays. We need to fix it.

edhopper

(33,543 posts)
15. I'd like to say you are wrong.
Thu Feb 23, 2012, 05:21 PM
Feb 2012





I'd like to say it, but I can't because you are closer to the truth than I want to think.

Spike89

(1,569 posts)
17. They control the debate because we let them
Thu Feb 23, 2012, 05:38 PM
Feb 2012

Even FDR wouldn't have made his moves without pressure from the people. It is the most ignored point of the entire New Deal--it came about because the government (both Dems and Repugs) of the time genuinely feared the mood and potential of the people. There were literally thousands of young, hopeless, and trained vets from WWI who marched on DC and urban areas around the country were being flooded with economic refugees from the dust bowl.
FDR was a great man, but he (and congress) didn't enact the New Deal to help people. They did it to avoid a revolution, or at the very least major rioting. There was immense pressure, not just the literal army of out-of-work vets. Communism was making huge inroads. Fascism (which of course is not quite the same as nazism) was also a major threat.
The lesson was that the people demanded change and the government had to respond or fall. Sadly, the people seem to have forgotten that and the powers that be (who never forgot) have become much better at keeping us distracted, fractured, and just comfortable enough to stay home rather than march.

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