I don't think that everyone who thinks Snowden being in Russia is OK,

[boston bean]

is a homophobe.

For one, there are many reasons for him ending up there, number one being pressure by the US on other countries that may have accepted his asylum. It was suppose to be a stop over, but turned into a longer stay. Do I think Snowden is a homophobe, or that anyone who supports him is one, absolutely not.

I also think that defending Snowden by defending Russia's homophobia in the face of those accusations, is very wrong. It leads to appearing (at the least) that you are in support of Russia's stance on those issues, it's hurtful to the community.

I also think it's wrong to try to box people into a hole, saying that they are homophobes if they support Snowden. Using LGBT issues to score political points, against someone you are arguing with on the internet, is a disservice to LGBT and their struggles, imho.

I also think that USA should be making some strong statements about the olympics and possibly boycotting, or adding pressure for them to be held elsewhere. What is happening there is disgraceful, and should not be supported.

But the two issues are separate in my mind. I wish people who are using LGBT rights to argue against Snowden, would stop doing it. And I wish others who are making any defense of Snowden, arguing Russia aint that bad on these issues, would stop doing it.

[uponit7771]

1. They don't think Snowden is full of crap and that's bad enough. The "I'm sKeered of persecution ...

...of me so I'll go where they persecute" crap is illogical on it's face

[ZombieHorde]

9. If you consider Snowden to be everyone, then yes, but if you consider

Snowden to be one person, then no. Feelings of self preservation exist, so we probably shouldn't be shocked when people act on these feelings.

[uponit7771]

10. Every male of color should be acting on these feelings then and Snowden is saying it's justified

...just for another context (US LE)

That's now what's happening and I dont' think people would accept it if males of color in US did act as Snowden has

[frylock]

13. hunh?

[uponit7771]

14. Simple, Snowden - the US has shown to be bad actors to whistle blowers. Men of color in US - .......

....us justice system has shown to be bad actors in being racially impartial.

It's a weak ass'd position at best

[frylock]

17. so it sounds like your beef is with "men of color.."

which is what I was going to originally post in reply. just wanted to verify.

[uponit7771]

18. No, my beef is with Snowdens weak ass'd excuse of not facing the music because the systems

...is less than perfect as if no one else has been dealing with it for eons

Also looks like Obama spoke of reigning in surveillance long before SnowGlen was known of

[disidoro01]

35. President Obama

did speak of reigning in the NSA when he was Senator Obama. Once he became president, he did not speak of reigning it in, he supported expansion. Until after Snowden's story broke.
Your critical thinking skills are weak ass'd.

[uponit7771]

37. so what said was true. .. link and quote to the expansion...tia

[disidoro01]

39. I am amazed

that you can look at what the senator said and then faced with the truth of him not reigning in the program as president say "see he was truthful." Senator Obama would be appalled by President Obama's stance on this.
http://www.theverge.com/2013/6/27/4470442/nsa-surveillance-programs-bulk-collection-of-internet-metadata
http://www.alternet.org/civil-liberties/obama-continues-national-security-agency-monitoring-americans-phones

You don't want to debate do you? You just want to call people homophobes and racists.

[cthulu2016]

16. Wow! That might be the worst argument ever made.

[Little Star]

32. Except that in the case of Snowden, he is not being persecuted by Russia....

He is being given temporary asylum because the USA wants to persecute him for being a whistle blower.

Russia is saving him from the Bradley Manning treatment.

Russia is horrible in many ways but it's been good for Snowden who is a whistle blower not a traitor like our government has labeled him and want to prosecute him as.

[backscatter712]

2. Nuance seems to be lacking here on DU as of late.

Guess what. I'm also one of those guys who thinks Russia's homophobia and persecution of the GSRM community is fucking vile, but also was relieved to see that Snowden got asylum there.

But try explaining that to the black-and-white thinkers. "You believe this, therefore you must believe that!" is a truly ridiculous logical fallacy.

[Little Star]

33. It is a ridiculous logical fallacy. There is no explaining that can break through that type thinking

[snooper2]

3. snowy is a confused little shit

He's lucky anybody would take his ass in-

It's okay, I'm sure the CIA is working with the Russian mafia right now to get him shipped back here

[leftstreet]

4. +1

It's the most ill-advised FAIL strategy I've ever seen on DU

DURec

[bravenak]

5. I want him to stay there.

I don't want him back. Not a homophobe, pretty sure I've had sex with other women. I want that sneaky little twit to enjoy not being able to come home ever. I'll take a dozen Russians in exchange, ones that want to be here. They like it in my state. They say they feel free.We even have a few Russian orthodox churches in town and boy they are religious. I used to work at the holiday mini mart down the road. They try to tip you.

[boston bean]

6. He probably will end up living there.

Not the best of outcomes for sure.

[Pab Sungenis]

7. Please don't join in the confusions of the issues.

A few homophobes here on DU tried to attack LGBT posters who want the Olympics taken away from Russia as being Snowden opponents in disguise, to belittle the issue.

The two have nothing to do with each other.

[boston bean]

11. I saw it as people who don't like snowden were

using the olympics/Russia against people who supported Snowden, which I think was a pretty shitty thing to do.

Then I saw people defending Russia in the face of this criticism, versus defending Snowden. Which outed some homophobes.

Either way there is a conflation of issues where LGBT is used as the wedge. I think at the least we are in agreement with that.

The olympics don't belong in Russia, and snowden doesn't have much to do with those policies.

[Little Star]

12. Pab.....

Would you please read my thread and the comments in the thread from yesterday: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023451232

That is what I have seen happening on DU.

If I am wrong please feel free to explain where/what I'm missing. Thanks, LS

[bemildred]

8. I think it's better than Gitmo or Quantico.

He ought to be on a special two-hour version of Meet The Press. I'd pay to see that.

[limpyhobbler]

15. +1000. Russia's LGBT climate is horrible, and yet it has nothing to do with Snowden.

The US suspended his passport, stranding him in Russia. He couldn't leave if he wanted to.

Also choosing to live in Russia doesn't make someone a gay-hater any more than choosing to live in Saudi Arabia would make someone a gay-hater. Or choosing to live in Mississippi for that matter.

[LuvNewcastle]

19. I agree with everything you said.

I support what Snowden did and I understand why he had to stay in Russia. I'm also a gay man and I'm disgusted with what's going on in Russia right now. No one is going to tell me that I must support one thing because I support another. I'll believe in what I think is right and let the chips fall where they may. Some of the worst atrocities in the world have been committed by people blindly following an ideology or trying to be 'consistent' all the time. I think it's usually best to judge each issue on its own merits.

[quinnox]

20. Blaming Snowden or those progressives who support his actions for anti-gay laws is moronic

It is not even worthy of discussion.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

21. Simple solution: Give him his passport back, call off the dogs, and let him go wherever he likes.

I have a feeling he would leave Russia for a better climate politically, socially, and with a better record on civil liberties and civil rights than either Russia or the USA.

[Little Star]

34. yep

[Bluenorthwest]

22. I hear Obama and half the world saying folks must go to Russia for Olympics. Those who are

using LGBT issues around Snowden and raving about Russia are folks who would support Obama's stated desire to see the Olympics in Russia, to move them or boycott would be unfair, Obama says. But unless we boycott, shit tons of Americans are going to be in Russia by CHOICE, for sport, to spend tons and legitimize the worst crap.

[boston bean]

23. I feel for Olympians who might not get to compete if there is a boycott,

That is why I wish the Olympic committee would decide to have it elsewhere. If that can't or doesn't happen, pressure needs to continue to get Russia to change publicly, and if they don't, the Olympics should be boycotted.

[Bluenorthwest]

24. Yeah, that's a different subject. If it is so ultra horrific for A person to be in Russia how can it

be ok for us to send thousands to spend tens of millions there for nothing but fun and games? That's my point. Same folks exploiting the gay issues to attack Snowden agree with Obama that the gay persecution is not worthy of boycott. So it is awful that this one guy is there but perfectly wonderful for thousands to go, show them on TV and hand them millions of tourist dollars? How does that fucking work?

[boston bean]

25. Now, I see what you are saying. Good point.

[cascadiance]

26. I guess I'm thankful that Snowden's and Manning's roles weren't reversed...

... and it was Snowden that earlier did what Manning did and was in prison, and now Manning was seeking asylum instead. Manning's sexuality might have made it more difficult for him to have gotten asylum in Russia. Thankfully that wasn't in the case with both of them in prison now.

I'm glad that Snowden for the time being isn't being squashed away in prison now, even though I'm also equally adamant about Russia's need to back down from it's homophobic persecution if they expect the rest of the world to cooperate with their hosting of the Olympics now.

I still think that if Obama had used Russia's stances on gays instead of Snowden as a reason for pulling out of talking with Putin, it would be Obama's image being strengthened in the world instead of Putin's then.

[boston bean]

28. Good point with on your last paragraph. I hadn't thought of that. nt

[Little Star]

29. Good point......

"I still think that if Obama had used Russia's stances on gays instead of Snowden as a reason for pulling out of talking with Putin, it would be Obama's image being strengthened in the world instead of Putin's then."

I agree.

[Zorra]

27. I don't either, they are unrelated. Who is saying this that anyone who thinks

Snowden being in Russia is OK is a homophobe?

[boston bean]

30. I've seen some very strong critics of Snowden using it in their arguments

with those who support snowden.

[Little Star]

31. People who support every single thing PBO does.....

They seem to think no one should ever have a problem with anything he does and they have been trying to conflate the Russian homophobic laws with Snowden the whistle blower. That does not include all Obama supporters just a small group who refuse to have any criticism of him or his policies.

Your right those two subjects are unrelated.

There is much I like & admire about our president but not every single thing. I think the way he has reacted to the Snowden stuff is wrong.

I also think that every single Dem should speak out loud and clear about Russia's laws against gays. I agree with George Takei, we need to move the Games to Vancouver or elsewhere and take them out of Russia because of that country's homophobic laws regarding the lack civil rights for LGBTQ. It wouldn't take much effort or money to move them to Vancouver.

[dipsydoodle]

36. I agree

.

[davidn3600]

38. Well...they can't change the Olympics venue now

There is a lot of organization and construction involved in these things that takes years of planning. It's impossible to change the venue at this point.

Boycotting won't do much. It didnt do anything when we boycotted the Moscow Olympics during the cold war, and many today say it was a mistake for us to do so.

Russia isn't the USSR anymore but they are still a large, strong, sovereign nation (and have thousands of nuclear weapons). We can't really apply much pressure to them any more than they can apply pressure to us. Countries will not simply stop doing business with them because of their LGBT policies or that they gave Snowden asylum...many countries can't survive without doing business with them.

The west can voice its displeasure and condemn their laws...but that's all we can do.

[Little Star]

40. Well, George Takei disagrees with you and has given a solution to the problem....

Many others are signing his petition!

George Takei 's petition:

To: Jacques Rogge, President - International Olympics Committee (IOC)
Please relocate the 2014 Winter Games to Vancouver

In 2010 they successfully held the games. The facilities are already in place and can be made, with support, ready in the limited time period to host another games.

We appreciate your efforts in requesting Russia allow gay athletes to compete at the games, but this is not enough. The very nature of the original Olympics was to settle conflict through sport and not violence. You are now presented to adopt this stance as an organization by removing the Games away from Russia, telling them we, the world, will not tolerate the abhorrent persecution of minority groups.

Sincerely,
[Your name]

http://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/international-olympic-committee-ioc-relocate-the-2014-winter-games-to-vancouver-2