Miltary Coups always turn out so well: At least 150 killed as troops clear pro-Morsi camps

[cali]

Last edited Wed Aug 14, 2013, 03:01 PM - Edit history (1)

Who could have predicted this? I did and I'm hardly an expert.

Egypt’s capital descended into a chaotic bloodbath Wednesday after security forces moved in on protest camps set up by supporters of ousted president Mohammed Morsi, sparking deadly violence.

A month-long nationwide state of emergency was declared as the interim government tried to maintain order.

At least 95 people were killed and 874 injured, the country’s health ministry said, as unrest spread to other parts of the country.

Witness reports and pro-Morsi volunteers at the camp put the toll much higher, but the none of the higher figures could be immediately confirmed by NBC News.

<snip>

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/08/14/20016550-egypt-bloodshed-at-least-95-killed-as-troops-clear-pro-morsi-camps?lite

Appointment of 19 Generals as Provincial Governors Raises Fears in Egypt

Egypt’s new military-appointed government on Tuesday named a roster of generals as provincial governors, raising fears of a return to the authoritarianism of former President Hosni Mubarak.

Of the 25 provincial governors named, 19 are generals: 17 from the military and 2 from the police. One police general has become well known for his openly insubordinate refusal to protect supporters of Egypt’s first democratically elected president, Mohamed Morsi, an Islamist whose candidacy was advanced by the Muslim Brotherhood.

A military general appointee, Gov. Mahmoud Othman Ateeq of Sohag, a former deputy governor in Alexandria, was filmed in 2011 raising a gun at a demonstration of teachers, who can be heard begging for their lives.

Of the six civilians, two are judges known as Mubarak loyalists deeply hostile to the Islamists behind Mr. Morsi. In Giza, the second-largest province by population, the civilian governor has held the job since he was appointed by the military council that seized power after Mr. Mubarak. In Cairo, the capital and most populous province, the new governor, Galal Mostafa Saed, was a senior figure in Mr. Mubarak’s old governing party. Mr. Saed had governed a smaller province before he was thrown out during the 2011 revolution.

<snip>

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/14/world/middleeast/egypt.html

edited to reflect updated death toll

[David Krout]

1. It wasn't a coup

John Kerry said it was the restoration of democracy.

[cali]

2. such a crock of shit and so foreseeable

Egypt is in worse shape since the coup than before it. And things are about to get a whole lot worse.

[snooper2]

6. It's one huge clusterfuck, Watch this-

The MB almost seem, reasonable, but they are fundies and fundies suck ass...



(Yo CNN, if you are reading this take a clue (real journalism))

&list=PLDbSvEZka6GHk_nwovY6rmXawLc0ta_AD&index=6

[cali]

16. I don't care if fundies "suck ass". Military slaughter of

peaceful protesters sucks much worse ass.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

3. Coups are horrible but I'm honestly having a hard time conjuring tears for the MB

I'm not saying you are.

I would also add the MB was staging a coup of its own by forcing the shape of the new government processes to exclusively favor themselves. It was a soft coup.

There is no anti-coup faction in this one.

[cali]

4. Al-Sisi is worse than Morsi. I may not care for the MB, but they did not stage a coup

We're seeing wholesale slaughter in Egypt under the coup leaders.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

5. Would we have cared if the Weimar Republic had staged a coup against Hitler

and gunned down his brown shirts?

[cali]

8. If the military (not the Weimar which had ceased to exist

after Hitler became Chancellor) had staged a coup in Nazi Germany, that would, of course, have been a good thing, but the few exceptions do not and should not serve as an endorsement for military coups.

Are you actually comparing the recent coup in Egypt overthrowing Morsi with Hitler and the Nazis? Please tell me you weren't. The comparison is odious.

Early on (think Mein Kampf) Hitler's plans for genocide and aggressive war, were documented in his own words. Morsi's government showed nothing even close. And the Morsi government, autocratic and oppressive as it was, didn't engage in wholesale slaughter and was less oppressive than this one is turning out to be.

[redgreenandblue]

11. I should add that...

...in the case of Hitler, the power grab of the Nazis through the "Notstandsgesetze" was itself already a coup. So the military, had it intervened at that point, would have actually stopped a coup rather than committing one.

And yes, I think the poster was comparing Morsi to Hitler. Very dumb.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

14. The MB did fight alongside the Nazis

[cali]

15. Jaysus. You think that's an argument for comparing Morsi to Hitler?????

So the hell what?

should we still classify Germany and Japan as enemies along with Vietnam?

That was 70 freakin' years ago and since the 1970s the MB has disavowed violence.

THE EGYPTIAN MILITARY JUST FUCKING MURDERED OVER A HUNDRED PEACEFUL PROTESTERS.

By your twisted logic, they deserve it.

That's grotesque.

[cali]

23. for pity's sake, when was that?

and hardly my friends, but thanks for that bit of inanity.

there isn't any dispute that the MB protesters that were conducting the sit ins were peaceful- which anyone who isn't abysmally ill informed could know simply by paying the slightest bit of attention.

I hate to break this to you, but the MB is hardly the only group in the mideast that is antagonistic toward Israel.

Pathetic to see anyone on DU supporting wholesale slaughter of peaceful protesters or defending it in any way- which you are sure as shit doing.

[cali]

34. Disgusting and vile to condone mass murder.

I condemn anyone doing it. YOU? Ugh.

Oh, and link please to the MB sytematically murdering anti-Morsi protestors in a similar way to this.

If I missed that, I certainly condemn it.

[cpwm17]

39. "From 1948 through 1973 the armies of predominately Arab nations invaded Israel over and over."

A complete lie.

[NuclearDem]

51. I'm sorry, but you are dead wrong on the Six Day War.

Israel started it with the surprise attacks on Egypt. Its Arab neighbors didn't start that.

[NuclearDem]

54. It's no problem.

I can see how you'd arrive at that conclusion, but history rightfully records Israel as the aggressor in that war.

[NuclearDem]

41. Jesus fucking Christ!

Are you out of your fucking mind? I don't care if they're goddamn Neo-Nazis, everyone on the planet has a right to peacefully assemble and demonstrate without fear of being slaughtered by their own damn government.

Holy fuck, what is happening with this place?!

[Nuclear Unicorn]

21. I don't see Germans in government positions peddling constant anti-semitism like the MB

[cali]

25. anti-semitism is rife in Middle East and rife in Egypt. duh.

that's not excusing it, but pretending as YOU are that the MB is the exception re anti-semitism in the region, is disingenuous.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

31. I never came close to inferring such a thing.

Surely, you're not inferring if Hamas or AQ or a violent Wahabist sect were in the role of MB that my opinion would change. It wouldn't.

I think the coup is terrible but there is nothing redeeming about the MB and if -- God forbid -- they were to prevail we would regret their return to power as surely as I regretted their initial assumption of power. I would have preferred to see them displaced by democratic elections but they were determined to deny to others that which they employed themselves to gain power. There is nothing democratic about them.

If the MB is driven from Egypt I would be intensely interested to see if those replacing them can live peacefully alongside Israel and the rest of their neighbors, i.e. not support the AQ jihadists in Syria (No, I am NOT rooting for Assad, I'm concurrently NOT rooting for AG-Syria) as well as other ethnic groups such as the Coptic Christians.

[Comrade Grumpy]

45. "If the MB is driven from Egypt"...the country would lose half its population.

You do realize they one repeated elections? Remember them?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

49. So did Saddam Hussein. What's your point?

[malaise]

44. BS - the MB won the elections n/t

[Nuclear Unicorn]

48. That is not the sole criteria for the legitimacy of an election.

And they did everything in their power to undermine the democratic process and worked to consolidate power under a unitary executive. They sought to antagonize other nations, curtail rights for women, ostracize the Copts and used gangs of thugs to attack dissenters.

[malaise]

56. That's the Teaparty argument

re Obama

[Nuclear Unicorn]

58. Obama is not even remotely comparable to the MB

Ron Paul doesn't like bank bailouts. Does that make you automatically in favor of them?

I'm a grown woman, I don't base my opinions based on which herd is moving in which direction.

[dipsydoodle]

7. Kicked for attention

.

[cali]

9. Thanks, dipsy and good morning- or rather good afternoon

[dipsydoodle]

10. Depending on where we are.

[NuclearDem]

12. Good God.

This is murder. I'm no fan of the MB, but this is just horrific.

[cali]

13. Yes it is. And some of the estimates of this wholesale slaughter's toll are much

higher than that figure of 95.

the administration should not remain silent.

[cali]

27. reallY? A poster advocates mass murder and all you have to say is that?

[leftstreet]

28. Wow n/t

[NuclearDem]

33. Through reason and shifting popular attitudes, yes

Not wholesale slaughter.

[jwirr]

18. We must learn the lesson in this. When you militarize your nation - police, etc. - you will get

treated in a military fashion. It is not just Egypt. We are seeing much of this in our own country.

[malaise]

20. Closer to 2,000

including two journalists - one from Dubhai and one from Sky news.

[morningfog]

24. Horrible, horrible, horrible.

[cali]

26. not according to bloodthirsty posters in this thread who want to see genocide.

disgusting beyond words.

[arely staircase]

30. Both sides have blood on their hands. I condemn the shooting of peacful demonstrators.

As far as the coup itself, I stand with the secular and liberal Egyptians who supported it.. If I were an Egyption I would have been one of the people in the streets demanding Morsi step down and then cheering his ouster. Morsi was elected and then set about imposing a tyranny of the majority. It was clear what he was turning Egypt into (an Iranian style theocracy.) But I don't think this will end well.

[cali]

35. What they're getting now is worse than Morsi.

period.

[arely staircase]

40. The MB has killed fewer people only because they lack the ability, not the will.

Additionlly the MB belives in a much more rididly religious society than secular military and liberals in the post-coup coalition. A substantial part of Egyptian society is not willing to see their country turned into a theocratic state. And those urban liberals have the Army on their side. The theocrats have the rural conservatives and compromise probably slightly more than half the country. It is a fucking mess.

[okieinpain]

32. eqypt was going to go bad either way. that is not a fundie country

and those people were not going to go along quietly with the muslim brotherhood laws.

[cali]

36. Fundamentalism is widespread in Egypt.

[okieinpain]

37. true but it's not the whole country, which is why they are having the problems

they are now. this was going to happen either way.

[cali]

38. no, it's a piece of why. the military in Egypt has long been another piece of

why they're having the problems they are now, and that there's massive inequality is another.

[okieinpain]

42. yes that is true also. n/t.

[branford]

43. Do I have to choose between the Muslim Brotherhood or the Egyptian Military?

They are all undemocratic, murderous neanderthals who wouldn't know a progressive value if it bit them on the a@@.

I just read that the Morsi supporters burned down a number of Christian churches in protest of the military's bloody crackdown. I do not know which side is worse, but they are all different shades of horrible.

I think the chances of a real civil war in Egypt are increasing rapidly. That will not be good for the Egyptians, the USA, or anyone else.

Maybe I'll just stick to watching the local news here in NYC. I hear Bill de Blasio is leading in the Democratic primary polls, that at least is some good news . . .

[Donald Ian Rankin]

46. I think it's becoming increasingly clear that this is the greater evil.

Bigoted repressive theocrat with no respect for human rights that he was, Morsi was still a democratically elected leader.

[eissa]

50. Ah, yes, the innocent MB supporters being unjustly attacked

Please

http://twitchy.com/2013/08/14/literal-pogrom-churches-set-ablaze-vandalized-by-morsi-supporters-in-egypt-photos/

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2013/08/20138147553170355.html

"Local media reported that the main Coptic Christian church in Sohag, in southern Egypt, was burned, and a church in Minya was also set on fire.

There has been a great deal of sectarian rhetoric directed at Copts in recent weeks during pro-Morsi protests, leading to several incidents of churches burned and Christian-owned businesses attacked."

The military didn't just up and decide to oust Morsi, they did so at the behest of literally millions of Egyptians taking back control of their revolution. Egyptians weren't about to sit around and watch as the fundamentalists hijacked their revolution in the same way the mullahs in Iran hijacked that country's revolution. Wait for elections? Do you know how much power-grabbing the MB was engaged in?! Not only did they isolate any other group from taking part in the writing of the Constitution or parliamentary decisions, they were actively fanning sectarian flames. The last straw was Morsi appearing at an anti-Syria rally with a bigoted imam who called for the slaughter of all Shias. A local Shia mosque was stormed the next day and four people murdered. At least when the anti-Morse protestors revolted, they did so peacefully. The MB is now engaged in tactics that everyone knew they would act upon eventually. Not shedding a single tear for them.

[cali]

52. yes. there are numerous press reports and all say the sit in was peaceful

The military is worse than the Morsi Regime.

Your post is disgusting considering that children and women and the elderly were brutally murdered today and the death toll is now estimated in the hundreds. But hey, got to get rid of those little verminous children, right?

Yes, there's been violence from mobs- and not just MB mobs either, but for anyone here to endorse murder as YOU are doing with your
"Not shedding a single tear for them. " is beyond the pale.

[eissa]

55. Your post is laughable

You share absolutely no sympathy with the victims of the MB -- who literally number in the hundreds, definitely more if you count their persistent attacks on the country's indigenous Coptic community over the decades. The fact that their first instinct was to take their anger out on minorities (as usual) tells you all you need to know about these fundies. Sorry the kids were killed, perhaps if their parents gave a fuck about them they wouldn't be so eager to sacrifice them and make them "shahdeh" (martyrs) for their cause.

The MB took power on a fluke. Having been around for decades, they were far more organized than the dozens of secular groups that sprouted up post-revolution, splitting the votes among them, and leaving the people only two alternatives: the dreaded MB, or the even more dreaded Ahmad Shafik, a leftover of the Mubarak era. Not wanting their revolution to be in vain by bringing back Murbarak's people, the majority ended up voting for the lesser of two evils. It quickly became clear with the power grabs, sectarian attacks and social regression that a HUGE mistake was made. It's now being corrected.

[cali]

57. no it's not, but your posts are unconscionable. period.

oh and those two links at the top of the post of yours that I responded too? those attacks- horrible as they are- were in reprisal to the wholesale slaughter today. that doesn't excuse them, but it does put them in context. violence follows violence. duh.

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Backchannels/2013/0814/As-military-makes-its-move-forget-about-liberal-democracy-in-Egypt

I have a great deal of sympathy for ALL of those who are suffering from the violence- unlike YOU who cheers on murder.

And much as I deplore the MB, Morsi was elected in what is widely seen as a democratic and fair election. duh.

[eissa]

59. Again, please read up on the lead-up to the election

and how the MB came into power. Overall, the secular groups received more votes. Had they consolidated behind one candidate, they probably would have won. Instead, they ended up splitting the votes, leaving the top two the MB and Mubarak's people. I know secular Egyptians and Copts who held their nose and voted for the MB because they just couldn't bring themselves to vote for Shafik. They said they felt that if they did, the whole revolution would have meant nothing. My friend's family, who voted for the MB, said they quickly realized what a mistake it was. I'm sorry all this is happening, but it was inevitable.

[cali]

60. And how does that in anyway justify mass murder of PEACEFUL sit in protesters, today?

oh never mind. YOU have expressed support for that.

[NuclearDem]

62. First of all, "shaheed" singular, "shuhada" plural

Second, glad one of your sources is Michelle Malkin's blog.

Thirdly, the MB's past crimes don't justify the army slaughtering peaceful protestors.

Finally, your work at blaming the protestors and their families for the army's monstrosity is absolutely disgusting.

[eissa]

63. Shahadeh = Iraqi dialect

Second, not happy at all about Malkin's blog; this is what is being sent around by my Egyptian friends, most of whom are VERY liberal. It's not their fault the topic du jour is the violence being committed against the MB, while the violence they commit is omitted. While Al Jazeera touched on it (which is why I included that link) most media are just focusing on the brutalities being waged on the MB and not vice versa.

I'm really not fazed at all by all the "disgusting" attacks. I know the history of the MB; their propensity to support violence, particularly against women and minorities, their attacks on the Coptic community, and their regressive policies. My friends in the region were aghast at the path the MB was taking the country ("they're making us into Afghanistan!&quot I'm sorry this is happening to them now, but I can't imagine how horrific Egypt would have looked should they have remained in power.

[derby378]

61. I had a nasty feeling all along that Egypt was heading from bad to worse

Even after all those peaceful protests in Cairo, all the hubbub over Mubarak targeting Twitter and activists naming their kids "Facebook" and the military stepping in to assume control - this gut feeling that it would all descend into tyranny and bloodshed resided in the pit of my stomach all along.

I don't care if it's Mubarak supporters, Morsi supporters, or whomever. If peaceful protesters are being cut down in the streets, what are we to make of this besides the very real observation that the revolution failed? This may be the beginning of a bloody civil war.