I hope somebody tells the people who follow the Muslim Brotherhood that Morsi

[applegrove]

wasn't acting like the President for all Egyptians. That in a democracy, some faction elects you, and then you promote everybody's interests. You can't govern for only your peeps. That doesn't work.

[disidoro01]

1. No

Explain to me how the military overthrowing a democratically elected president, then massacring his supporters makes sense in a democracy. Are you saying that when a president falls below the magic 50% popularity mark he can be removed from office by the military then put in prison?
I'm no fan of the Brotherhood but democracy can be ugly as it grows. Further, the US has a poison hand in this and now this is what we helped create.
Next you will tell me the dead 12 year old with a bullet hole in his neck and his poor mother deserve this because they belonged to a different political party.

[applegrove]

3. They are not a democracy now. I wasn't referring to the state of violence today. I was referring

to how Morsi governed. And how that's not how one is supposed to govern in a democracy. He made grave mistakes. His supporters should know that going forward.

[disidoro01]

4. Nonsense

you are making up crap to push a point. Do you want President Obama removed by the military? he is below 50% isn't he? Many people are not in support of some of his decisions. Again, let's apply that to Bush.
Hundreds dead and you can only come up with this "He made grave mistakes. His supporters should know that going forward." You are actually advocating continued violence against those in a (purported) minority party. Going forward I might add. So you would tell this mother that she should have known this would happen when she voted for Morsi.
The right way to deal with an unpopular president is at the ballot box, not with a gun.

[applegrove]

6. It is called "Majoritarianism". Here is the link to Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majoritarianism

[Scootaloo]

12. So I just want to get this straight

In the wake of another slaughter of demonstrators by the Egyptian junta, bringing the total slain since the coup well past 400...

You urge that the Muslim Brotherhood be "reminded" that Morsi wasn't every Egyptian's cup of tea.

Yeah.

[applegrove]

15. That Morsi wasn't a democracy. Just like a coup isn't democracy.

I want everyone to take responsibility for their actions. That includes the military (take ownership of the violence), secular Egypt (for their movement that led to the coup) and the Muslim Brotherhood (for getting elected and choosing Majoritarianism instead of Democracy). If any one of them don't take responsibility for their actions.... Egypt is fucked. But I was only talking to the Muslim Brotherhood in this post.

[Scootaloo]

17. He was, actually

You can argue he wasn't a particularly good president - I wouldn't argue against that - but being a paragon of perfection isn't a requirement for a democracy. Should there be a coup and mass murders in Russia 'cause Putin isn't a shining example of political liberalism? Should Bush have been overthrown and Republicans gunned down when he bulled us into an illegal war in 2003?

You're defending the slaughter of civilians, on the basis that Morsi was kind of a dick.

[applegrove]

18. I'm not defending the slaughter. I wasn't talking about the slaughter today or last week. I was

talking about Morsi and his rule. Which ended via coup, months ago. We can hold more than one issue having to do with a country in the DU you know.

[Scootaloo]

20. Well, you can't transfer blame to the demonstrators AND "not talk about the slaughter"

Reality doesn't fucking work that way.

[Mosby]

27. Do you think the US should cut off the 1.5 billion per year in aid?

Was it a military coup in your opinion?

[Scootaloo]

29. Yes to both

What a weird question.

[Arctic Dave]

2. Tell that to Obama.

A large faction elected him and then he governs for the 1%.

[Scootaloo]

14. To say nothing of the half of the country that flat-out hates him

One presumes Applegrove would support a military coup on that basis, and then wouldn't have much of an issue with pro-Obama demonstrators being gunned down by the hundreds. He would then wag his fingers about how Obama wasn't governing properly in a democracy, so the military coup and slaughter of civilians that followed was just something that should be expected.

...Or more likely, applegrove is just happy that Muslims are dying, regardless of why or where.

[applegrove]

16. I was talking about the Muslim Brotherhoods responsibility in this. It is a tragedy all around.

But I did not want Morsi's grave errors of judgement lost in all the horror. I do not condone violence. I was not talking about the violence today.

[Scootaloo]

19. You ARE condoning the violence.

You're justifying the coup, because oh, Morsi didn't give an exemplary performance that was up to your standards. You then say the Brotherhood should "take responsibility" for the coup and the killings that have followed. You're doing this straight on the heels of another slaughter of demonstrators by that junta. You are thereby attempting to deflect blame from the violence from the junta (who you regard as inevitable because of Morsi) onto the demonstrators themselves (because they supposedly support the brotherhood, and so it's theor own fault they're getting shot.)

Either you're being very disingenuous, or you're being very dumb.

[applegrove]

21. No I'm not. The point was to start a discussion about Morsi's failures. More than one thought

about a country can happen at the same time on the intertubes. It is a wondrous thing.

[Scootaloo]

25. It's a matter of timing and tone

Paired with some of your follow-up responses when it's been pointed out to you.

You're basically being that guy who posts about the cop who brought a homeless guy some shoes, after a big story on police brutality.

[applegrove]

30. Obviously my tone should have been different. I've lost this thread to people who are outraged and

think I like slaughter. It was not my goal. That is for sure.

[riderinthestorm]

31. I understood what you meant but this place is so adversarial lately, its just really bad

[applegrove]

32. Thanks.

[Benton D Struckcheon]

33. Ditto

I hate ideologues. Ideology isn't a substitute for thought.

[joeybee12]

5. Your OP is ill-timed and offensive...

You seem to justifying the wholesale slaughter of his supporters...since they obviously didn't know better. I'm sure some of his supporters could tell you why they still support him, and I think they might be better informed than any of us here are, since we're watching all this from afar.

[applegrove]

7. I was not talking about the slaughter. I'm talking about how the mess started. It was not

a democracy it was Majoritarianism. I can hold different realities in my heart and speak to each of them on the same day. The problem with democracy in Egypt and what went wrong is a separate issue from the military slaughter today. I'm glad el baradei quit today. But is not my point or what I am talking about.

[joeybee12]

9. I'm sorry, but you still should have held off...

I don't know much about the situation, or Morsi, but still, it could have been better phrased...some of them should have told his supoorters.

[applegrove]

10. I'm no writer so I hear ya. We're cool.

[eissa]

8. Of course he wasn't acting like the president of all Egyptians

Because he didn't give a fuck about any of them unless they were members of his MB. What sitting president would sit alongside a bigoted religious figure and nod along supportively while that person spewed hateful comments about other religious sects, inciting a riot that resulted in Shia mosques being attacked and four people murdered? Whose party first action when in power was to call for the arrest of famous Egyptian actors for "blasphemy" because of roles they played in the past? Whose Interior Ministry ordered security to open fire on peaceful protesters at Port Said's soccer stadium, resulting in the death of over 70 people? Who shut out every other party when drawing up the country's bylaws? This is why the elections are currently being help up; groups have to reconvene and draw up yet another constitution, hopefully a valid one this time, with input from all factions of society.

Again, I think the actions taken by the military in overthrowing Morsi are quite nuanced. Unlike you average coup, where the military unilaterally overthrows a government, the Egyptian military acted at the behest of the millions of people who took to the streets to protest Morsi's monopolization of power and authoritative rule.

[riderinthestorm]

11. The Egyptian Army now has the status quo back - a restored "state of emergency"

that will probably be perpetual like under Mubarak that simply perpetuates a permanent security state with all the attendant ramifications.

They also have their old bogeyman - the Muslim Brotherhood.

The Army had a lot of other tactics they could have taken with the protesters and instead they chose the most violent. They had to know the results which means they used this method purposefully.

Tragic. All around tragic - from Morsi's troubled and disastrous presidency to the Army's latest actions.

[applegrove]

13. Yes. It is very tragic indeed. And worse is that having committed violence the military

might want to entrench even more instead of promoting democracy.

[etherealtruth]

22. I wish somebody had told "W" the same thing

[applegrove]

24. Yup. That is so true. Except Morsi won the election and W did not.

[etherealtruth]

28. 'tis true

[typeviic]

23. The only reason Morsi

was taken out, was because Morsi was getting far too friendly with Iran and Russia. Plus, he wanted to join the BRICS countries.

[cleanhippie]

26. I wish someone would tell that to OUR politicians.

That doesn't happen here, who are we to tell anyone else how their democracy should work?

[applegrove]

34. One thing for sure the "what's mine is mine and what's yours is mine" philosophy of

radical islam transferred to democracy doesn't work. You cannot transfer the fundamentalist viewpoint to government and have a great democracy. Just look at what the right in the USA, market and religious fundamentalists, have done to the USA.

[jessie04]

35. Thats an understatement.

Morsi ran Egypt like a dictatorial caliphate.

Screw the Christian copts.
Send women back to the 17th century
Instigate mindless anti-Semitism.

I cant imagine why the people didn't want this pig out of office sooner.

The people have spoken.