Nov 2012: Egypt President Mohamed Morsi Seizes New Powers, Called 'Pharaoh'

[oberliner]

CAIRO, Nov 23 (Reuters) - Egyptian President Mohamed Mursi's decision to assume sweeping powers caused fury amongst his opponents and prompted violent clashes in central Cairo and other cities on Friday.

Police fired tear gas near Cairo's Tahrir Square, heart of the 2011 uprising that toppled Hosni Mubarak, where thousands demanded Mursi quit and accused him of launching a "coup". There were violent protests in Alexandria, Port Said and Suez.

Opponents accused Mursi, who has issued a decree that puts his decisions above legal challenge until a new parliament is elected, of being the new Mubarak and hijacking the revolution.

"The people want to bring down the regime," shouted protesters in Tahrir, echoing a chant used in the uprising that forced Mubarak to step down. "Get out, Mursi," they chanted, along with "Mubarak tell Mursi, jail comes after the throne."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/23/egypt-mohamed-morsi_n_2176978.html

Just a reminder for those with short memories.

[AZ Progressive]

1. I don't understand why noone remembers this. I would think that this alone was why Morsi should've

been deposed. Morsi and the Muslim Brotherhood care more about their power than Democracy.

Of course though, I have to remember that Americans have short memories.

[Gravitycollapse]

2. If Egyptians did not want him, they should have been allowed to vote him out.

There's no point for democracy if the military has the power to overthrow a democratically elected government. Even if that government is corrupt.

[oberliner]

5. How could that have happened?

There may not have been another election.

[Gravitycollapse]

7. So you support preemptively removing democratically elected leaders...

because of vague possibilities? What a lame argument.

[oberliner]

8. No I don't support that

I am just saying, from what I saw, the people of Egypt were in a pretty dire situation and feared that another dictator was looming. Remember this is a country that had not had a true democratic election and had been ruled dictatorially for generations. I don't know that it's fair to dismiss the obviously extremely serious concerns of the large numbers of people who marched in protest of what they feared was taking place.

[Gravitycollapse]

9. There could be large protests in the US too if right-wingers were sufficiently motivated.

Massive protests numbering in the millions. The streets would be flooded with dissent. That wouldn't diminish the fact that President Obama won a majority of the electorates votes.

[oberliner]

10. The US has a 200+ year history of democratic elections

Egypt has no such history and has been ruled by one dictator or another for many generations.

I don't think it's fair to impose an American perspective on people living in Egypt.

[Gravitycollapse]

11. No, it's absolutely fair to expect a democratically elected official to not be deposed.

I am so sick and tired of political and social relativism. Egyptians aren't animals. They aren't stupid; at least not more so than any other human population.

Do you think they are simply not sophisticated enough to understand what it means to be democratically elected? Are they too barbaric? Oy.

[oberliner]

13. Is it fair to expect a democratically elected official not to grant himself unchecked power?

I think so. Yet, that is exactly what happened.

You make some very strange comments in your post.

Obviously the people in Egypt are not animals - where you get such ideas is beyond me - nor are they "barbaric" - again, what a bizarre thing to write.

Can you take a step back to consider what may have driven large numbers of Egyptians to take to the streets in protest in November?

The people of Egypt were coming off literally living their entire lives under a dictatorship. Do you not think that might shape a person's perspective on leadership in a way that is different from someone who lived under a functioning democracy?

Is there anything that Morsi could have done that would have justified his being deposed in your opinion?

Can you really believe that just because someone is democratically elected that they are not capable of imposing a dictatorship and ending that democracy?

[stevenleser]

16. And while waiting for a response, I have some appropriate music...

[RobertEarl]

17. Go easy on GCollapse

He's in his early 20's. He was just a kid on 9/11.

As for the US I recall a certain election that was quite corrupted and that the person appointed as winner did do a lot of things that were quite dictatorial.

And some people did take to the streets. Just not enough..............

[Gravitycollapse]

18. The question is not whether he was capable of imposing a dictatorship...

The answer to that is obvious. He absolutely could.

Then again, so could any democratically elected government if they so choose and possess the means of doing so. If the mere existence of the possibility demands throwing out the will of the people, then I have serious concerns over your views of the American political system.

[oberliner]

19. Was the will of the people not expressed on June 30?

Seeking New Leadership, Millions of Egyptians Take to the Streets

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/06/seeking-new-leadership-millions-of-egyptians-take-to-the-streets/277419/

It seemed like the people were demanding that he step down because of actions he had already taken.

[Gravitycollapse]

20. Like I've said before, a million Egyptians could show and it would be just 1.1% of the population.

There are plenty of groups in the United States who, if sufficiently motivated, could show up and march on DC with millions of American citizens demanding that Obama step down. That doesn't discount his electoral win and it certainly does not diminish the political capital he gained by winning the election.

[oberliner]

22. Why do you think it was only 1 million?

The article says millions, plural.

Here's another:

CAIRO, Egypt — A sea of bobbing heads hoisting Egyptian flags high spilled out of Tahrir Square as drivers pulled their cars over on the October 6 Bridge to watch the scene below. A long procession of others walked down Ramses Street in the direction of the presidential palace.

We’ve covered a lot of protests in Egypt since the fall of President Hosni Mubarak, but the last time we’d seen anything on this massive scale was in the days following Jan. 25, 2011, when the revolution started against him.

As night fell today, it quickly became clear the size of the June 30 protests by opponents of President Mohammed Morsi would eclipse those seen during the revolution. Egypt’s CBC cable channel showed a split-screen of high shots of the various protests, each box revealing a staggering number of Egyptians walking and chanting.

It’s impossible to confirm, but a military source told the Al Masry Al Youm newspaper that millions had taken to the streets in the biggest protests Egypt has ever seen. It’s easy to believe.

On the road to the palace this afternoon, the mass of humanity stretched in both directions as far as the eye could see. It was a brain-rattling cacophony of car honking, megaphones and chants. Men, women and children of all stripes were out to protest Morsi’s first year in office and his inability to get Egypt back on track.

“A year, he did nothing for this year,” Ghada Ahmd said. “He is not even trying. He is doing everything for his Muslim Brotherhood group. Not for Egypt, not for Egyptians. He is ignoring everything.”

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2013/06/reporters-notebook-millions-march-in-egypt-protests/

I would also respectfully repeat my question:

Is there anything that Morsi could have done that would have justified his being deposed in your opinion?

[Gravitycollapse]

25. Are you asking me to define some sort of line that when crossed would justify a military coup?

I'm not here to be your ethicist. If you want to spend your own time defining such a line, by all means, have at it.

If Morsi had his government murder hundreds of Egyptians a day as they march in the street, I would certainly think long and hard about deposition. Ponder that for a moment and tell me how that relates to this new murderous military dictatorship.

[oberliner]

26. No - I am asking if you think it exists

Murdering hundreds of people a day would make you "think long and hard" about it. That's interesting. Maybe you should talk to your ethicist about that.

What about George W Bush and all his murderous cronies? What's your opinion on what they deserved?

[Gravitycollapse]

28. Are you asking me if the Bush administration deserved to be deposed by military coup?

[oberliner]

31. I was just looking at your transparency page

You had a deleted post about George W Bush - do you recall what you wrote?

[Gravitycollapse]

32. Yes, I do. Why?

[oberliner]

58. No reason

Sorry I brought it up. Anyway, I appreciate the thoughtful discussion!

[eissa]

53. Not a lame argument at all

The problem with these fundies, as we saw in Iran immediately following the '79 revolution, is that there really is only one election. Thereafter, the system is rigged in such a way as to ensure that they remain in power. That is EXACTLY what the MB was doing. They excluded others from the drafting of the constitution, and set up bylaws that all but guaranteed their continuous monopoly in the Parliament, and most likely the presidency. "Waiting for the next election" to correct a major wrong was simply not an option for the Egyptians. They weren't about to allow what happened in Iran to occur in their country.

There are coups, and there are coups. The military did not act unilaterally in this case. They didn't come in willy-nilly and just sack the president. They did so after millions (some record it as high as 14 million) took to the streets to wrest control back of their revolution. The people begged the army to intervene for months, until they finally did. Does it justify the current atrocities? No. But I didn't see many DUers up in arms when Morsi's forces massacred anti-government protestors in Port Said's soccer stadium, incited sectarian riots that resulted in Shia mosques begin attacked and the people inside murdered, or the numerous times his security forces opened fire on protestors in Tahrir Square. Short memories indeed.

[brentspeak]

24. Morsi forfeited his right to govern as a democractically elected

leader when he assumed extraconstitutional powers during peacetime and gamed the system to rewrite Egypt's constitution. That is not "corruption"; it is tyranny.

[Gravitycollapse]

27. The Obama administration has assumed extraconstitutional powers as well.

Does our own administration forfeit the right to govern? Should we have a military coup?

[oberliner]

30. Do you really want to run with this comparison?

You really think the circumstances for the American people are anywhere near as dire as those in Egypt?

You really think Obama is taking actions akin to what Morsi did?

Is this an analogy you are totally comfortable making?

[Gravitycollapse]

33. Actually, just the opposite. I do not think either are dire enough to justify a military coup.

[LittleBlue]

37. Agree completely

No matter how bad or corrupt a government, if the military sets a precedent for coups, then the government means nothing. Respecting the process is the only reason any democracy has meaning. If the military can remove any government it feels like, then the government will be beholden to the military and not the people, making it not really a democracy at all.

[Zorra]

36. I agree about Morsi and the Muslim Brotherhood. Scary, dangerous religious fanatics.

Hopefully, this will all work out in the best interests of the people of Egypt.

[msongs]

3. "..has issued a decree that puts his decisions above legal challenge.." is democratic? nt

[PowerToThePeople]

4. Mursi, who has issued a decree that puts his decisions above legal challenge

Bush, who has issued a decree that puts his decisions above legal challenge and who's decrees are still unchallenged under new leadership.

Ya so, whoopdeedoo. Who are we to say squat...

[oberliner]

6. Impeachment is always an option for us

No such mechanism existed there, however.

[bhikkhu]

15. And the lack of will here was a miserable thing to see

...for those who remember the 8 * years. I wouldn't wish the issues and violence in Egypt on any country, but democracy without the will to stand up against entrenched power and injustice is a hollow thing.

[Comrade Grumpy]

12. Tell me, who controlled the judiciary against which Morsi moved?

What was the judiciary doing?

Google "Egypt deep state."

Oh, and who is in charge now? Not the Armani anarchists who took to the streets back then.

[oberliner]

14. What Morsi did was simply unconstitutional

Do you disagree?

You may feel it was justified, but it certainly did expand his powers beyond what was called for in the constitution.

[Gravitycollapse]

21. And President Obama has expanded his powers beyond what's constitutional...

Do you support deposing the Obama administration through military coup?

[oberliner]

23. No I don't

Do you think that is a reasonable comparison?

[Gravitycollapse]

29. You did not qualify your statement about unconstitutionality...

So, yes, it is reasonable as far as your rhetoric is concerned.

[oberliner]

60. OK

We're going to have to agree to disagree here, but thanks for debating.

[Scootaloo]

34. Aug 2013: 200+ slain by Egyptian military, called "terrorists"

Just a reminder for those who make a practice of excusing mass murder

[cali]

40. over 500 and those in the sit ins were unarmed according to EVERY reporter there

[Scootaloo]

41. It was two hundred when I posted

Good fucking god.

[delrem]

35. I dunno about you, but my memory is long enough to...

...remember when the military under Mubarak was forced to oust Mubarak and submit to democratic elections.
Hillary Clinton was appalled, since Mubarak was an obviously innocent friend of the Clinton family.
Scarcely a year later that same military overthrows the result of that election in a coup, and it portrays this in colors like the 4th of July.

[liberal_at_heart]

38. If that were true they would hold elections immediately. Until then it is a military coup.

[eissa]

51. They can't hold elections until a Constitution is drafted

The MB shut out every other faction when they finalized the country's "constitution." The Egyptians are trying to get it right this time; they have representatives from every group (except the MB who are boycotting, which is good.) Once the Constitution is in place, then the election will be held. The MB can continue throwing as many tantrums as they want, they won't be able to undermine the revolution again.

[cali]

39. and? Does this in any way whatsoever justify the wholesale slaughter that the military

and Al-Sisi conducted yesterday?

What on earth is your point? No one here is lauding Morsi, but the mass murder of unarmed men, women and children is a lot more pertinent at this point. Not to mention that the military has declared a state of emergency and appointed 19 generals to regional governorships.

Worse than Morsi. Much worse.

I'm so disgusted with people here trying to defend or justify this horror. Yes, I'm including you in that group, which shocks and disappoints me. I've seen your other posts on this.

[oberliner]

42. Just to give a full picture

No justification of the current horrors at all. Just important to understand how we got here. The protests of June 30 were significant and meaningful. The military has taken advantage, obviously, but those protests ought not to be forgotten either. The people took to the streets in June and millions called for Morsi to step down. That did actually happen. Acknowledging that does not justify anything that is happening now. It is a tragic situation all around.

[cali]

44. pretending it begins and ends with Morsi is inaccurate. And that appears to be what you're

doing.

And calling mass murder of unarmed men, women and children, the military "taking advantage" is just bizarre.

It was a military coup regardless of the support for it.

al-Sisi is a butcher and worse than Morsi.

[oberliner]

56. Definitely does not begin and end with Morsi

And the mass murder of unarmed men, women, and children is not the military "taking advantage" - that's a serious misread on what I wrote.

What I wrote was that the military took advantage of the fact that massive numbers of Egyptians were protesting to get rid of Morsi - they used and co-opted that movement in order to seize power.

What they have done since then is, as you said, butchery and is worse than anything Morsi did, no question.

[muriel_volestrangler]

43. A reminder that Mursi used tear gas, while the army killed over 500 yesterday? A good reminder

It really puts in proportion how much more evil the army is than Mursi. Thanks.

[cali]

45. +1. exactly.

[brooklynite]

49. Without absolving the military, I'd say that violence is a tactic being used by everyone

Bishop Anba Suriel @BishopSuriel

Bishop Abraam of Fayoum has just reported that the MB have burnt and destroyed 4 churches in Fayoum.

Ayman Mohyeldin @AymanM

Protestors have stormed a police station in Giza (Karadaseh) killing all inside including 2 police officers & 2 conscripts #egypt @nbcnews

[muriel_volestrangler]

50. But not the Morsi-led elected government

I don't think "all sides do it" is a reasonable position to take when one side has massacred its opponents, and the other side didn't.

[disidoro01]

54. You are

Absolving the military. By saying that and then posting what you did above, you absolutely are trying to absolve the military.
The military stormed camps and set this in motion.

[oberliner]

57. It is not a question of who is more evil

The reminder is that there was a movement against Morsi because of actions he himself took as president. There were massive protests culminating in what I assume you saw at the end of June.

Whether you think that is relevant or not is up to you, but I think it is foolish to pretend that it didn't happen.

[muriel_volestrangler]

61. For most of us, it is a question of who is more evil

Murder may not matter to you, but it matters to us.

Yes, there were huge protests against Morsi. That doesn't mean that people condemning murder have forgotten the protests, or are "pretending it didn't happen".

[oberliner]

62. Huh?

Murder may not matter to me? Where do you get that from?

(Who is the "us" that you refer to by the way?)

In any case, the killing going on right now is absolutely horrific - and the Egyptian military ought to be condemned as strongly as possible.

Not sure why you want to talk about "who is more evil" - rather than working towards finding a solution to end the bloodshed.

Some of us actually are focused on that.

[muriel_volestrangler]

63. "It is not a question of who is more evil" implies you don't care about the massacre ony 1 side did

Since you do now say "the killing going on right now is absolutely horrific", then it seems to me you do care that this is more evil than what Morsi did. If we can agree that the army leadership is evil, then we can also agree that a solution has to involve getting them completely out of power.

[oberliner]

64. Certainly did not mean to imply that

Just was trying to say that it wasn't about a contest to see who could be more evil.

Look, I do think we are on the same side here - we both agree that the bloodshed and the violence needs to stop.

My question is - what is the way forward after it does?

[Fire Walk With Me]

46. The poo-flinging short memory types are out in force. Thank you for the reality check

if they even see it.

[muriel_volestrangler]

48. 'Poo-flinging'? You think decrying a massacre of over 500 is 'poo-flinging'?

Your values are shit.

[kelliekat44]

47. The pro-west media lies and we all buy. Morsi took power UNTIL a Parliament was elected.

The truth is the west, led by Israeli interests, hated the fact that Morsi was elected and the Brotherhood gained as much power as it did from the elections. I predicted that the pro-west-pro Israeli interests would not allow the legitimate election to stand and that it was only a matter of time before the seeds of unrest were sown with this outcome. I just didn't expect the Egyptian military to be so blatant with their coup or to kill so many of their own countrymen. There is a false equivalence going on even now with the media say that both sides were guilty of killings when, in fact, the pro-Morsi protestors were peaceful from the beginning. The military initiated the killings and no one should expect that peaceful demonstrators coming from a background of anti-Muslim extremism would take these killings forever. We must soon learn what policies are actually in the BEST INTERESTS if the US and not Israel or some other nation.

[oberliner]

59. "led by Israeli interests..."

And off we go!

[Igel]

52. The overriding issue was fear. "Terra! Terra!" in other words.

For those with memories beyond Google, it's worth considering why, exactly, he did what he did. Apart from fear-based and suspicion-based "reasoning".

The courts were Mubarak appointed. The laws were Mubarak-era laws. Mubarak-era Constitution. Mubarak-era bureaucracy, and their positions are defined by law.

If you put anybody in that situation, you're not going to see much change. Everything the new government tried to do was challenged by somebody--perhaps they brought a suit because they were afraid of where a change might lead, perhaps the courts, on their own authority, struck down the proposal.

The courts even wound up striking down the laws that were put in place--extraConstitutionally, mind you--to elect a new parliament. If you can't redo the laws necessary to redo the laws, the courts have voted: They liked the status quo and would defend it.

Since the "liberals" were in terror over what horrible things their ideological enemies and inferiors would absolutely, positively do--they supported the court in impeding any kind of change, becauses they couldn't imagine (or allow) the MB as having any kind of positive change, only negative change. For the same reason they supported an Army coup. For the same reason they liked having the political secret police resurrected. For the same reason they seriously impeded freedom of speech. For the same reason they support killing protestors that aren't like themselves. For the same reason they like the state of emergency and restricting any freedom of assembly.

They learned their lesson during the parliamentary elections. They lost, justifying their real fear: That they aren't the majority, so while they say they like democracy they really don't mean anything like majority rule. The majority may get to elect their own representatives, but the minority has to control things because, well, they believe themselves to be right and who is anybody else to question their (unsteady) judgement. They're willing to consider, however briefly, what the majority ignorantly wants.

Of course, this ignores the vast majority of Egyptians, who just want jobs, sex, food, housing, and entertainment--in other words, the things they think necessary for acquiring human dignity.