"Part of the problem is that Americans just plain do not want to do the work."

[xmas74]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3466268



Supposedly the reason why we need to grant so many work visas to immigrants for nursing is because Americans do not want to go into nursing. Something doesn't quite ring true about that, especially since it's one of the top majors in the United States.

http://www.princetonreview.com/college/top-ten-majors.aspx

I've known too many people who wanted to work in the field and couldn't,either because they couldn't afford the school or because there weren't enough seats available in the school. I know that, at least locally, there is quite a fight to get into all of the nursing programs. Why? Because jobs are available in the field and everyone knows it.

How much of the visa program for nurses is because they can't find anyone qualified to work in the field and how much is because they can higher someone on a visa for a much lower wage? I wonder.

[Coyotl]

1. Not enough nursing programs in the USA to meet the need.

[xmas74]

4. That was my response in the thread.

I live in a college town. The nursing program is one of two highly competitive programs on campus. (The other is aviation.) There are only a few seats for each year and it's a fight to get them. When they complete their studies in aviation they have guaranteed jobs. The same goes for nursing-complete the degree and they have guaranteed jobs.

Offer more programs, make them affordable and qualified American candidates will take the jobs.

[FreakinDJ]

21. NOT True

Nursing Programs across the country are at capacity

No one wants to work for $8.75 after they graduate with their Bachelors

[xmas74]

35. That too.

The poster at the link states that we, as Americans, don't want the kind of work that would start us at 60 grand a year with only 18 months of school.

I call bs. I know plenty of people who would love a shot at the field, even for under 40 a year.

[Nay]

36. And there are not enough nursing programs because nurses make more actually working

than they ever would teaching classes. It was that way 20 years ago; I was in med tech school, and they had trouble in the adjacent nursing school because they couldn't get qualified teachers because of low pay (compared to what they could make nursing.)

[Warpy]

2. Americans will do any work that presents itself but only if

that work pays enough to support them.

The problem lies with employers who want first world people to work for third world wages.

That's why we needed a wage floor and why that floor needs to be jacked up--a lot--right now.

ETA: the problem with nurses, along with the wage problem, is that there is a bottleneck in nursing education because schools won't pay nurses adequately to educate the next generation of nurses. It's been like that for decades and schools of nursing are still stingy about it. In addition, new grads can't get hired out there because hospital administrators are panicking over the ACA.

Either the pay will have to be subsidized or people will have to deal with staffers who don't speak decent English.

[xmas74]

8. Exactly.

It has nothing to do with Americans not wanting to do the work but rather the conditions offered for the work and other outside considerations.

[Turbineguy]

52. We need people to work at 3rd world wages.

How else can we pay management bonuses and the parasites on Wall street.

Somebody has to actually earn it you know!

[w0nderer]

61. how to pay management bonuses and wallstreet

well let's see axes and guillotines come to mind?

[bluestate10]

68. Nurse-Practitioners can easily earn $75,000 per year or more working a standard shift.

The money is there for nurses that get advanced certifications.

[bhikkhu]

80. A friend of mine worked as an RN, then transferred to a nurse-practitioner program

..after two years and all the training and internship he settled back into an RN position. The money was as good and the hours were better. Now after 8 years of that (and saving pretty sensibly) he's throttling back and planning for an early retirement. Lucky guy, but he was also very smart and worked very hard.

We have a good medical college in my area and plenty of people I know have gone into nursing; its a good job, the money is good, and the jobs aren't hard to find, especially if you don't mind travelling. Myself, I was encouraged to go into it but I just couldn't, I feel drained enough after a few hours of dealing with people who are well, and not particularly demanding. It takes a certain kind of person. I fix mechanical stuff, and find that pretty relaxing.

[Initech]

3. We want to work, employers don't want to pay us. Big difference.

And I'm tired of these corporate apologists who are saying anything otherwise.

[xmas74]

7. S/he felt the need to "school" me about the subject,

since they claim to be an HCA.

I live in a college town. I see how competitive the nursing program is here. I know this town isn't unique. I also have family in the field and I hear about it all the time.

[The empressof all]

5. Admissions to Nursing programs is extremely competitive.

I know a few nurse educators who tell me there just aren't enough people who want to teach in these programs so they have to limit the number of admissions.

[xmas74]

9. I have a friend

BS in Psychology, 3.5 GPA who wants to go to nursing school. She's been waitlisted the past two years. Why? Not enough seats available and too many fighting for the seats.

We need more programs and more people who want to teach the programs. Something has to be done. There is no reason why we should have to pick up workers from another country for a field that can be trained here.

[leftstreet]

6. DURec

But I'd edit your OP

You don't really need to do the 'callout,' and risk getting the thread tanked, to have this discussion

It's an excellent OP on its own

[xmas74]

10. Thank you.

I took the specific reference to the "call out" out of the OP. I was just irritated that the moment when I read the pitiful excuse of how Americans just don't want to do that kind of work. I know that's not true in the slightest.

[leftstreet]

12. Yeah, it's bullshit

But generally a minority view here

[xmas74]

14. I don't know when it became such a minority view.

In the old days of DU that post would have had a hundred people dog piling it, wondering where that idea even came from, and probably questioning someone who joined such a short time ago.

I don't know all that many people who wouldn't be proud to work in that field, if given the chance. Some really cannot do the work but a number would be thankful for the work and for a living wage.

[leftstreet]

17. There was a time...

this topic would generate questions and ideas about apprenticeships, guilds, on-the-job training, etc and why the US has lost that concept

[Blue_Tires]

22. sadly, 'callouts' are necessary now

since it takes months and thousands of posts to ban trolls these days...

[xmas74]

45. Remember how, once upon a time,

a troll was sniffed out and banned all within a few hours?

Those were the good old days.

[Scuba]

11. Why are nurses still so poorly compensated when ...

http://online.nursing.georgetown.edu/nurses-most-respected-profession-for-11th-year/

Nurses Most Respected Profession for 11th Year

A yearly poll that tracks public opinions of various professions finds nurses to be the most ethical and honest profession for the 11th year, with 81 percent of respondents in a Gallup survey ranking them as “very high” or “high.”
Nurses have been the highest ranked profession for 11 out of 12 years. “The consistently most positively rated professions, including nurses and pharmacists, have generally been able to avoid widespread scandals and, as such, Americans continue to hold them in the highest regard,” according to a Gallup press release. More information on the survey is available online.

[xmas74]

13. If you read the thread I linked to

the poster states that they can't find enough people who want to come in, do honest work and start at 60 grand a year. I don't know too many parts of the country where nurses start at that income, unless the cost of living is outrageous.

[Scuba]

15. Entry level RN jobs don't pay that, although specialists can command more, sometimes much more.

But it's darned difficult, emotionally wrenching, heart breaking, back breaking, multi-shift, holidays included, work even without considering having to tolerate the doctors.

[xmas74]

19. Specialists are a different subject.

A specialist in a field with experience can make good money-darn good money. But just an associates in nursing, as mentioned in the link? No way, no day.

[Heddi]

29. I'm an associates-level RN, and the pay is the same for ADN as BSN

some place will pay up to $1.00 more an hour for BSN, but you don't have to have a BSN to be a CCRN (critical care registered nurse--ICU) or CEN (Certified emergency nurse---er), etc.

The problem is that BSN or ADN, no hospitals want to hire new grads, and they don't want to hire people whose only RN experience is working in a nursing home, which is the only experience new grads can get...it's a vicious cycle. Must have 2 years Acute Care Experience, but you can't get acute care experience without having acute care experience. And nursing homes aren't acute care.

It isn't that there aren't people who want to do the job---hospitals aren't hiring the tons of people who want to do the job.

Worked at an ER in Seattle. ONE job opening for the ER had 400 applicants. FOUR HUNDRED APPLICANTS FOR ONE JOB.

[xmas74]

37. I know locally they don't want to hire ADN.

The classifieds are always for BSN only, probably because of the local university. In a college town it's easy to get twice the education for half the pay.

Crazy but true. And I'm not shocked at the 400 applicants for one job.

[Heddi]

39. A lot of hospitals only want BSN because they are trying to get or are "Magnet Status"

where they (the hospital) gets $$ for the # of BSN they hire over ADN. I work for a "magnet hospital" (shit magnet is more like it) and I am an ADN that they hired only because of my experience and the fact that I'm in an RN-BSN program now.

So hospitals that are trying to get Magnet STatus only want to hire BSN because they can go to the magnet committe and say see, we only hire the best and brightest BSN RN's and get away with paying them the same as ADN....

[xmas74]

43. That makes sense

and in a college town with a nursing program it would be easy to do.

I remember there was a big stink about it a few years ago. The ADNs had so many years in order to get their BSN and had to prove they were in a program within a year's time, or something like that. (It's been several years ago.) It was all over the paper and quite a few ADNs were angry about it.

[Heddi]

26. I'm an RN. Hospitals don't hire new grads anymore

They will hire new grads only if they (the RN graduates) worked at the hospital while they were in school, but otherwise....no go. When I lived in Seattle (moved away in April), i'd always hear the Nursing Students talking about how they were weeks away from graduation and no prospects in sight, still working for Starbucks, not even nursing homes hiring.

And there IS a nursing shortage. School is hard to get into and hard to stay in. Very competitive and very hard subjects to master THEN pass the NCLEX (national licensing test). Hard stuff, and even harder when you don't have a job waiting for you.

I graduated nursing school in 2006. I was hired while I was in my senior year while doing my senior practicum in the ICU. I didn't work for the hospital, wasn't a CNA or anything like that. I started my orientation the week I graduated and was ready to hit the floor running a month later when I passed my NCLEX-RN.

Not like that anymore. It's hard to get hired as a new grad at a hospital, almost as competitive as getting into nursing school. And you don't have your pick of the litter of departments to work in---I started in ICU, but could have gone Oncology, ER, home health, med-surg...whatever. Now, you start in med-surg, not even telemetry is taking new grads, and hope that in 2 years you can get one of the coveted spots in tele. 2 years later maybe you can get a coveted spot in ER or ICU or something else.

Despite tons of research backing up the fact that more nurses = happier patients and healthier patients, the work loads get greater, and unless you're in a state like California that has minimum staffing ratios, you could be a new grad, 6 weeks of orientation under your belt caring for 10+ med/surg or tele patients all by yourself.

Nurses are the biggest money losers in the hospital. Between the salary and the benefits, hospitals know they have to hire us to keep running but don't want to. So they shaft staffing and staff as low as they can, leaving nurses overworked, no breaks, no lunches, on your feet for 12 hours straight and god yes, no unions, and if you complain there are 500 people anxious and hungry to take your spot and they'll be more than happy to let you go for the slightest transgression.

Nursing is hard. TONS of people want to do it. Nursing schools are turning away hundreds per school per quarter. Hospitals aren't hiring new grads.

The poster who suggested people dont' want to do the work sounds like a typical hospital administrator. Always willing to criticize those of us in the trenches, but I never see THEM in scrubs when 5 nurses call out sick and there's no CNA's. I never see THEM offering to help clean ass and answer call lights and pass out water. No, they just sit in their offices monday-friday, never past 430pm, all holidays and weekends off, making $90k+ a year, complaining about how those nurses have the NERRRRVE to get upset for not getting a single 30 minute break in a backbreaking 12 hour shift :-/

Fuck hospital administrators. Want to know who should be cut first when healthcare costs get too high? Prune from the top, kids. Prune from the top.

Hospitals can't survive without RN's. But I think they'd do pretty good without CEO COO CNO etc...

[xmas74]

32. Funny you mention the call lights

since the poster was bitching about them earlier.

I worked in a state hospital years ago as a psych aide. Not quite the same but admin still had the same attitude-bitch about everyone beneath you while never leaving your cushy desk.

Oh, and the link mentions how you can make 60,000 after only 18 months of school. He must be talking about an associates in nursing, which I've never heard of making anywhere near that kind of money. I know our local hospital won't even hire them-BSN only.

[Heddi]

34. Associates can make $60k, depending on the city. Seattle, for example, easy 60k with associates

When I graduated in 2006 I lived in a very small town in rural central washington with a very low cost of living and my starting salary at a public hospital was around $47k. I now make in the upper $60's-low $70's.

An 18-month program is probably not an associates, as an associates is 2 full years of nursing program plus another 1-2 years of science/humanity prereq's. 18 month programs are diploma programs which are as rare as dinosaurs these days. Only a fwe hospitals in the country offer diploma programs, most are transitioning to ADN

[xmas74]

38. I know St Mary's in Kansas City still offers one

and it's possibly the most competitive program in the state-more competitive than any other program at any other school. I knew a nurse at the state hospital I worked at that attended-incredible nurse who really knew her stuff.

I didn't even think about the diploma programs as an 18 month. You really don't meet anyone who has been through one anymore. I think more along the lines of the ADN because I knew someone who pulled it off in 18 months. Of course, they had an incredible course load and never, ever took a break. They also had a very supportive spouse who could support the family while they attended school.

[Heddi]

41. There are a few, but they're going bye-bye

and more and more ADN programs, to compete with BSN programs, are having no summer breaks off and putting students through two full years of nursing classes. No summer break, no time between classes. And many are requring these ridiculous things like must volunteer 20 hours a week AND must have experience as EMT or CNA or phlebotomy AND must blah blah.

Who the hell can volunteer 20 hours a week in a hospital setting AND go to school full time AND work full time AND study full time?? it's bullshit.

In my nursing school, we started out with 30 students. At the end of 2 years, there were 15 of the original 30 left. Most of my co-students were second career empty nesters or second career parents. Who DID work full time plus, who did go to school, who spent every second studying...who the fuck has time for 20 hours a week of volunteering AND going to school in the summer (when most poeple would double down and work triple time to make up for not being able to work the rest of the year)

[xmas74]

44. I looked into an LPN program a couple of years ago

and that program expected volunteer hours. Also, you couldn't work while taking the course-anywhere.

It wasn't worth it. The ADN at a local community college was stricter and there was no way I could even think about attending, even though I had been a CNA, a psych aide and a CMT.

[Heddi]

46. I don't even know of a hospital that hires LPN's anymore.

Most nursing homes have even gotten rid of LPN's, having CNA's do most of the work and RN's doing the rest.

It's a shame because LPN's were really a great backbone and they've done away with them so that they can hire more lesser-paid CNA's and fewer higher-paid RN's.

and it's the patients that suffer the most

Okay...off to work for 12 hours. Maybe I'll get a lunch tonight...or maybe I'll be able to go to the bathroom before 4:30am....wish me luck

[xmas74]

48. Good luck!

Keep your legs crossed until 4:30!

[Scuba]

42. I agree with everything you said with one exception ....

I was a hospital administrator for 32 years. Yes, there are too many bean counters running hospitals without any clue what it takes to deliver care on the floor. But there's a lot of us who get it too.

Thanks for your post, and for your nursing service.

[Mr.Bill]

55. Nurses are not poorly compensated where I live.

Unless you consider 100-200K poor compensation.

[xmas74]

57. They aren't making that in Missouri, where I live.

They see nothing near that level.

[Mr.Bill]

60. It varies from state to state.

Read my post #51. My wife has met traveling nurses from your state and they were shocked to see California nurses making more than twice what they were.

[xmas74]

69. I bet!

I know too many making under 50 a year in Missouri when, if they moved to Illinois, could make much more.

[Mr.Bill]

70. I think the bottom line is

a lot of people go into this field for reasons other than money. There wasn't much money in it when my wife went to nursing school in the early 70s. Her mother did the job in the 40s and 50s for slightly above minimum wage.

When my wife was working with the California Nurses Association to organize her hospital, I was having a discussion with one of the union officials, who was also an RN, if she was worried that the big money would pollute the profession with people who are only in it for the dollars. She said no, those people won't make it through nursing school.

[xmas74]

73. I have family in the field

and I'd believe you on how the people who actually make it through school aren't there for the money. Of course, for the long shifts and the crap a nurse puts up with they deserve decent compensation.

One family member went through in the late sixties. She started in an LPN program, working her way through for a couple of years, then on to an RN. Though she'll never be rich she lives comfortably. She also said that she's not sure if someone today could work their way through like she did, considering how competitive the field has become.

[Mojorabbit]

96. When I graduated nursing school in the 70's I started at 4.25 an hour. :)

That was back in the stone age.

[xmas74]

97. What was minimum wage at that time?

I'm trying to picture the spending power of 4.25 then compared to now.

[Mojorabbit]

100. I looked it up. $2.30/hr. Wild huh? LOL nt

[xmas74]

105. That's pretty cool.

It's interesting to look back at what we once earned and how the buying power has changed so much.

[KamaAina]

102. Same reason teachers are

it's a predominantly female profession. Does 70 cents on the dollar ring a bell?

[Scuba]

104. Ding, ding, ding. We have a winner.

[Blue_Tires]

16. Trust me -- That poster is a full of shit sockpuppet

Take a look at it's body of work...

I work at a university, and our nursing program is by far the most competitive -- The ONLY department which requires a seperate application and a waiting list

[xmas74]

24. Our local univeristy has a separate application for four majors-

nursing, medical technology, aviation and safety science. The most competitive is aviation with nursing a very, very close second. All four, if accepted and completed, have job offers before graduation. A fifth, radiology, is being added and will also require a separate application. It is also expected to be highly competitive when officially added as a new major to the university.

The applicants are out there. There just aren't enough seats. If there were more seats available more students would take the program. Americans want the work.

[bemildred]

18. "Part of the problem is that American companies just plain do not want to pay a decent wage." nt

[xmas74]

25. Bingo. nt

[Marr]

64. And they know they don't have to, because the government will assist them in depressing wages with

these visas.

[bemildred]

65. Yeah, I know, it's like the government doesn't like tax money.

It prefers to give it all to the rich. Sounds ridiculous, doesn't it? But there it is.

[Hydra]

20. It's a BS Meme

I have a friend who worked their ass off wearing 3 hats in her last job as a Nurse, and was getting $15 per hour with half a life's resume in it.

That's really what they mean: "Part of the problem is that Americans just plain do not want to do the work (for no payment)."

[xmas74]

27. I have a friend right now who has been in the field for 15 years.

I shared the link with her. Her response? "Where the hell is someone with an associates in nursing making 60 grand a year? "

The link mentions how someone with 18 months of school can make 60,000 in the field. 18 months has to be an associates. That might net around $15 an hour.

[Heddi]

30. Your friend must not know many RN's.

I have an ADN. Graduated in 2006. When I left Seattle I was making, without overtime, $74,000 in the ER. My husband, also an ER nurse but for less time than me, has an ADN and when he left his ER job in Seattle he was making $68k.

We now both work in Philadelphia in ER's and are making well over $65k in our jobs, both with only ADN

[xmas74]

40. She lives in Missouri and has been in the field for years.

We tend to underpay everyone. What pays $20 an hour here would be nearly double in other parts of the US.

[Heddi]

31. 18 months is a diploma, and not many places offer diplomas. ADN is 24 months minimum

the RN portion of the program is 24 months with another 1-2 years of prerequisites. It comes out to 4 years in school for a 2 year degree. Dont' know how that works, but that's how it is.

For ADN-BSN, is an additional 9-18 months of schooling, depending on full time or part time, and depending on what science/humanity prereq's the BSN program requires that you didn't take in ADN

[Hydra]

33. My friend has really struggled since the recession/depression started

I have too, but I don't have kids, so a whole other dimension there. She looked for over 2 years when they started piling job duties on her with no wage increases and finally got out in the last month.

You shouldn't have to go to school and have those sorts of responsibilities and then have to do it for working poor payscale.

[Politicalboi]

23. But they love gardening

What other reason to have calves the size of cantaloupe's. Oh wait....

[xmas74]

28. That just made me laugh.

I'll have to share that with my friend T.

[jtuck004]

47. Two year wait to get into a jc nursing program here. You can't even

get into the pre-classes very easily.

So people do seem to want to work...

[xmas74]

49. Same here.

And even longer for the BSN program at the local university, if you can get in at all.

[TNNurse]

50. Many problems

I am an RN. I have worked in the hospital for 35 years. Much has changed. Technology now runs the system and some of that technology is life-saving, but some has caused a divide between nursing and patient care. So much more time is spent learning computer programs and the ever changing turnover of equipment.

I have a BSN and have done bedside care but now work in a supervisory role which does give me some patient contact. I will be 64 soon. At age 60 I had to start working 12 hr shifts. Young nurses wanted 12hr shifts, it gives them a three day work week. We were no longer able to cover 8 hour shifts so everyone (except top administration) went to 12 hrs. They need me and others with experience to help orient new graduates. They come out of school with less and less direct care training. They have a lot of knowledge. I am too old to work 12 hour shifts...it is exhausting. I could certainly not be at the bedside for 12 hours.

What I have seen recently is that new graduates do not stay with bedside nursing very long. They have so many other opportunities in clinics, offices, case management that do not require 1) those 12 hr shifts they thought they wanted 2) nightshift 3) working holidays 4)working weekends. The rewards in pay, respect and educational opportunities are not in bedside nursing. The good stuff comes from NP (nurse practitioner) level works. The money is there.

I was diagnosed with cancer last year and had surgery, chemo and radiation. My boss was great and has let me work a flexible part-time schedule. I have a lot of knowledge and experience to offer in place of full time work. However, in January since I am part-time, I will lose my health insurance through the hospital....did I mention I have worked there 35 years? Hospitals are using the ACA as an excuse to disrespect their employees.....a hospital that does not offer some employees health insurance, they do not see the flaw in their thinking. Hospitals cannot function without part-time employees and they are going to learn this the hard way. The patients will suffer first, though. It is ignorant to assume that this will force people to work full time, there are multiple reasons why some just cannot.

I could go on but I just wanted you to see there are lots of reasons for problems with "enough nurses" especially in hospitals. In general they do not seem to get that they need to give us a little more respect. I did not even mention the work ethic of some of the younger employees....they do not seem to understand that a job requires that you show up regularly. If they begin to have problems with one employer there is another nearby that will take the licensed person with few questions asked. We spend a phenomenal amount of time and money orienting.

By the way, I had my surgery in one of those magnet hospitals, it was fine. But no better than fine.

[Mr.Bill]

51. My wife just retired after being an RN for 40+ years.

Nursing wages vary wildly from state to state. There are no nurses working in California hospitals for $15 an hour. more like 35-40 starting pay right out of school. My wife was making 150K a year without overtime. She did have some special certifications, and of course, lots of experience. A good career path for a new graduate would be to try a small hospital in a rural area. There are always openings for RNs in our small town and they do hire new grads. And they pay better than some big city hospitals because no one wants to work in a small hospital and live in a small town. I would also have to say that in today's world, any RN without a Bachelor's degree is severely limiting their hire and career opportunities. I would like to also address what someone said about nurses from third world countries working for less pay. Not true in a unionized hospital, which most are in my state.

If you want to see some serious bucks, try Alaska.

[xmas74]

56. I knew someone who moved to Alaska

not as a nurse but in a different field. She made about $12 an hour here with her job but in Alaska as a shift supervisor she was making nearly 70 grand a year. For that field, with mostly OJT that is a nice chunk of change.

I bet nurses are paid incredible amounts there.

Missouri, OTOH, doesn't pay anyone in any field all that well. There is a serious fight, as we speak, to turn this state into a Right to Work state. The main opponent? Our governor, Jay Nixon, who is regularly denounced on DU as a DINO. If that happens, we're all screwed here.

[Squinch]

53. I bet if you ask her how many Americans don't want to do the work,

she will tell her that someone she respects says its about 47%.

[Mr.Bill]

54. Bingo n/t

[xmas74]

58. lol

I'd love to see that in print. Unfortunately, that still wouldn't be proof that the poster is a troll.

[Crow73]

59. I have seen this propganda here

before...
It never stands up to facts, and thank you Xmas74 for the post.

I grew-up with my family saying "Stay in school! You don't want to dig ditches do you?"
I dug water wells when I was just out of high school for awhile. No ditches.

[xmas74]

71. You're welcome.

I live in a college town and I see how hard it is to get into the nursing program. More kids want in the program than there are seats. I also see, on a regular basis, kids from Saudi/India/Pakistan/Jordan who are given H1B visas for fields such as business administration and for IT. Don't tell me that there aren't enough grads in those fields!

H1B visas are given far too freely and for the excuses that the poster at the link provided. It's not that I'm against them-not at all. If the field really cannot be covered by American workers then we should bring in the most qualified from overseas.

[lark]

62. 99% is the 1%;s slave wage dreams.

Five of my daughters' friends have gotten their RN's or BSN's within the last 2 years, it's a very popular vocation. All 5 have good jobs. I work for a physician group that staffs a local hospital, we never have any problems with not having enough nurses. We partnered with the local university and a lot of our nursing trainees/interns end up working for us when they graduate. To make sure we continue to have sufficient nurses, we also sponsor nurse training. The other hospitals in our area (there's quite a few) do similar things. Bringing in people from other countries for nursing is a total scam to lower the wages being paid.

[xmas74]

78. Thank you!

I know the shortage does exist, to a point. The problem is that there are plenty of people who want to enter the field but either cannot obtain the training due to a shortage of seats or they cannot afford to attend.

What irritated me was reading that Americans just don't want to do that kind of work.

[Marr]

63. ...for the low wage we're offering."

[xmas74]

83. Or excessively long hours or

crappy benefits.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

66. Logically, demand can still exceed the capacity of schools to train nurses.

When you consider the aging demographics of the nation, it makes sense.

[xmas74]

77. But the poster at the link states it's not because people don't want the training

but because Americans don't want to do that kind of work.

[cliffordu]

67. 15 SLOTS PER YEAR IN THE MRI PROGRAM IN OREGON.

I know because my GF just graduated (with honors).

[lumberjack_jeff]

74. There are only 15 slots because the AMA restricts the supply.

The AMA is the only effective trade union in the united states.

[cliffordu]

81. And, the student has to have a practicum site to do the hands on.....

Fortunately, she was already an X-Ray tech at the hospital where her practicum existed.

They weren't going to host another MRI student until the MRI supervisor heard she was applying.

He signed on immediately.

[xmas74]

79. Congratulations!

What an honor!

[cliffordu]

87. Yeah, really! She is awesome.

Except for the fact that she's moving to Georgia next month and there ain't a goddamned thing I can do to prevent it.

I cannot live in Georgia.

We knew this would happen for the last two years, since we met, actually.

But the reality is that it hurts more than anyone could imagine.

But it is what it is.

[lumberjack_jeff]

72. Really infuriating.

Americans want to work. Employers want to exploit.

Employers are the ones who own the media and some subset of americans are demonstrably so stupid that they can't see the conflict of interest when they repeat what the media tells them.

[xmas74]

76. The poster claims to be an HCA.

A HCA would know that the problem isn't that enough Americans don't want to work in the field but that there aren't enough programs around to train them. Nursing school is highly competitive-not just anyone can get in.

Americans are not lazy and we don't mind hard work. We just can't get the training when needed at an affordable price.

[lumberjack_jeff]

85. (s)he is an employer and therefore wants to exploit.

They think they are shilling their own self interest by advocating the importation of lower paid nurses and nurses aides from other countries.

The reason schools are "competitive" is that it's in the medical biz interest to keep salaries high. This only causes cognitive dissonance when nurses are promoted to health care administrators whose own high salaries are safe, but feel pressure to pay their former peers poorly.

Restricting access to medical education seems like a good idea until you're promoted to an administrator for whom your biggest challenge in your six figure job is finding minimum-wage labor to do all the actual work.

[Blue_Tires]

98. Don't believe it

I've been burned more than a few times over the years by believing posters who said they work in this field or are experts in another...

[xmas74]

99. I don't believe it, not totally.

I have an aunt who is an HCA. She said that yes, there is a shortage but it's not because people don't want the work. She says it's because nursing school is competitive, the hours aren't the best for someone raising a family, and that some places are trying to get rid of benefits. She's been in medical for nearly 40 years so I'll believe her over an anonymous poster making claims.

I think the poster was full of crap. S/he would know that the shortage isn't over lazy Americans but rather a training issue.

[mstinamotorcity2]

75. that is the Bullshit line they use.

To tell America that we are not smart enough for jobs in our own Country.

[xmas74]

84. It's an excuse to farm our jobs out

for lower pay and fewer benefits.

[meow2u3]

82. Translation: Part of the problem is that employers don't want to pay Americans what they're worth

Americans don't want to work for starvation wages in conditions akin to slavery. Non-immigrant foreign workers, e.g., H1B visa holders, are more easily taken advantage of; all employers have to do is threaten them with deportation if they complain about being overworked, underpaid, and having their wages stolen.

[xmas74]

86. You hear stories about that happening.

I believe it was a McDonalds or something similar who recently did that.

It's just not right.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

88. Space helmet... check, asbestos blanket... check, cyanide tablet... check, okay, here it goes.

One of the problems with nursing programs particularly is the "Mrs. Degree" problem. There are three women in my family who completed nursing degrees. Two of the three never went back to work after their first child (three and four years after graduation respectively) and the last one never really worked as a nurse at all because she "didn't like sick or old people".

I have been given the impression that this isn't unusual.

[xmas74]

90. But how long ago was this?

Nowadays, there are a whole lot of applicants who are beyond that level of looking for the Mrs. Quite a few candidates are now married or divorced, female or male, often older with children.

That might have been the case once but that's not as much the case as it used to be, especially since many households are two income. As to the one who didn't like sick or old people: usually clinical time clears them out. And with the amount of money students now owe on student loans most won't waste their time when they realize that they cannot stand the field. Why waste all that time and money on a degree in a field that you already know you hate?

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

92. All three in the last ten years

And the parents would have paid for all three

[xmas74]

94. If parents are paying for it then they'll do whatever.

There are far too many in the field that are entering as nontraditional students who are not looking for husbands but to help support households.

[on point]

89. Pure BS. THey just don't want to pay higher wages to nurses.

[xmas74]

91. That or they don't want to

give out benefits.

Either way, they want to screw others over.

[tavernier]

93. I'm an LPN

I work home health. The work that I once did on home health assignments now counts as Certified Nursing, so even with my LPN license, I receive CNA pay. I order and set up all the meds for my blind patient, take her vital signs and blood sugars and report them to her physician, work as a liaison between her doc and far away family, cook her meals keeping in mind her dietary needs as a borderline diabetic, and anticipate and deal with any and all daily challenges that might beset a blind 80 yr. old with multiple health problems, including Alzheimer's. In the past three years since coming to work for her, I have called her doc on two meds that were causing severe side effects which were immediately discontinued and suggested to the family a neurologist who started her on a medication that markedly slowed her confusion and disorientation.

Because my licensed nursing status has now been degraded to nursing assistant, I make a dollar less an hour than I did 22 years ago as a nurse. They recently hired a CNA for the night shift who comes when I leave. She is nineteen. My blind patient cooks her dinner and then the girl goes to bed for the night.

My agency (the largest in our county) cannot provide enough staff to patients because as I was told, "Most of the applicants can't pass the drug test."

I swear, you can't make this stuff up; no one would believe it!

[xmas74]

95. I absolutely believe you.

I've worked home health and I know what they do. They'll hire someone, pay them next to nothing and then hire someone for graves at minimum wage for a "sleeping" shift. And LPNs were really screwed over.


I've heard this in various fields about how they cannot get enough help because of drug tests. I don't buy it-it's an excuse. They used the same excuse when I worked in a group home, when I worked in a state mental hospital and when I worked as a 9-1-1 dispatcher. It's an excuse to not hire more staff.

[Skeeter Barnes]

101. Americans will do anything for money but most of us expect a decent wage in return.

[xmas74]

106. We will do almost anything for money.

We want it, we need it for basics and we'll do what it takes. We just want to be treated fairly when we do it.

[Safetykitten]

103. I do not know nything about nursing. I do know a couple that...

came here from Australia. Their job is to set up nurses from all over the world that a company sends here to work in hospitals. He picks them up at the airport, then dives them to an apartment complex that the company has housing for lined up and they work in area hospitals. Is this common?

[xmas74]

107. I don't know.

I'd start a thread about that. Someone might know more than I do about the topic.

[Bunnahabhain]

108. Is this all for little ol' me?

Thank you!