Not Just A Novelty Item: Get to Know the Americans You'd Least Expect to Fancy the Firearm

[friendly_iconoclast]

http://www.good.is/posts/good-magazine-feature-not-just-a-novelty-item-get-to-know-the-americans-you-d-least-expect-to-fancy-the-firearm

Good article, with much about the Liberal Gun Club

...Immediately after the Newtown, Connecticut, shootings, I found myself compulsively tucking and retucking my kids into bed. “There but by the grace of God go I” flickered in my brain like a short-circuiting neon light. I hovered extra long over my son, a preschooler, my mind teetering precariously into macabre horrors—bullets flying, frail, lifeless bodies. Simultaneously, I was swallowed by fear and incensed with outrage. I mouthed off about right-wing gun nuts. I shuddered as more news broke about Adam Lanza and his paperback copy of Train Your Brain to Get Happy, his holiday check from his mother for the purchase of a C183. I emailed my editor at GOOD a copy of the letter that I’d written to the President demanding gun control, hoping whatever power either held could spur some action and stop the guns...

Now, at the behest of that same editor, I’ve stepped into foreboding new terrain. When I first learned that people like me were gravitating towards firearms at a moment like this, I was revolted. I’d come to equate every American gun owner with Lanza, with James Holmes, with Seung-Hui Cho. Mine was a perspective that not only lacked nuance, but that had strayed from reality. My own rhetoric had become a shorthand in which merely owning a gun threw a person into a camp of those who were cavalier with deadly weapons, whose personal rights trumped public safety, and who were politically alien to me...

...Despite the high-profile mass shootings, and enough guns for every adult in the U.S., according to a Pew Research Center analysis of government data, the homicide rate is down 49 percent since a 1993 peak. By 2011, other violent crimes with firearms—assaults, robberies, sex crimes—were down 75 percent from 1993. According to the Centers for Disease Control, each year in the United States, approximately 11,000 people are killed in gun homicides. Nearly 20,000 die in gun suicides. Cox reminded me that in comparison more people (35,000) die in car accidents each year. According to data derived by Stephen Dubner and Steve Levitt in their book Freakonomics, a child is about 90 times more likely to die in a swimming pool than by gun.

For some liberals, doing the math—aligning policy with the available data— feels like a natural extension of their political philosophy. Marlene Hoeber, a “glorified mechanic” at a biotech firm, is a gun owner who describes herself as a “lefty feminist.” To Hoeber, the gun debate is the only time she sees the American left treating numbers and evidence as completely irrelevant, as though there is no reasonable political discussion to be had. Her characterization reminded me of years of willful denial of climate change on the right. But, says Hoeber, “the strategy of chipping away at rights looks an awful lot like the anti-choice movement to me.”

http://www.theliberalgunclub.com/

The mission of The Liberal Gun Club is to provide a voice for gun-owning liberals and moderates in the national conversation on gun rights, gun legislation, firearms safety, and shooting sports. We serve as a national forum for all people, irrespective of their personal political beliefs, to discuss firearms ownership, firearms use, and the enjoyment of firearms-related activities free from the destructive elements of political extremism that dominate this subject on the national scale. We also actively develop and foster a variety of programs for the purpose of firearms training and firearms safety education, for both gun owners and non-gun owners.

And yes, they actually *do* provide gun safety training- thus helping to break the NRA's near-monopoly
on training:

http://www.theliberalgunclub.com/firearms-courses/firearms-courses/

The Liberal Gun Club is pleased to announce the launch of our Basic Firearms Course. Currently, we have LGC certified instructors in Illinois, Florida and Massachusetts – where it is an Approved Basic Firearms Safety Course for the state.

Our course is designed to be intimate and free of political baggage. It is aimed at inexperienced firearms owners or those who simply want to relearn the basics. Class sizes are small and range instruction groups are even smaller – they are limited to no more than three students at a time. This makes for more one on one time with the instructor so that you get the most out of your time at the range.

The course consists of both a classroom portion and a hands-on portion at a range. The classroom portion takes approximately 4 hours to complete. After successfully mastering the class materials you will spend an additional hour on the range familiarizing yourself with the proper way to safely and effectively handle a handgun.

For more information email the LGC Education Coordinator for your state listed below. If you don’t see your state listed, we apologize but encourage you to check back again – new instructors are being added all the time, maybe one will be close to you. Thanks for your interest in The Liberal Gun Club’s Basic Firearms Course.

[sigmasix]

1. sounds good, financing?

this sounds like a worth-while endeavor- where do they get their financing though? Is this just another right wing gun nut attack on sensible gun owners, or is this honestly paid for and run by progressives from the top, down?

[mwrguy]

2. Looks like an NRA astroturf front group

like the pink pistols

[friendly_iconoclast]

3. Do you have any evidence for your assertion? If so, please post it.

[mwrguy]

4. Just looks fishy as hell

Like most "liberal" gun groups

[friendly_iconoclast]

5. I think astroturfing is more common amongst the pro-control sorts, frankly.

Last edited Sat Aug 17, 2013, 09:27 PM - Edit history (1)

For example, Mayors Against Illegal Guns is entirely the creature of Michael Bloomberg
and The Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence has fewer than 50,000 members

The American Hunters and Shooters Asociation turned out to be almost 100% synthetic.

Americans for Gun Safety was actually triangulation for Third Way Democrats

http://www.agsfoundation.com/

A Note to AGS Visitors

Americans for Gun Safety (AGS) and the AGS Foundation (AGSF) have been folded into Third Way, an organization founded and operated by the former AGS and AGSF management team.

For Third Way’s latest gun safety policy and message guidance, please visit our gun issues page. There you can also find reports produced by AGS in a special sub-category.

For current gun safety data and other information, we recommend the American Hunters and Shooters Association, the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, the Coalition to Stop Gun Violence, and Mayors Against Illegal Guns.

Press inquiries:
Matt Bennett, Vice President for Public Affairs
202.775.3768 x212
[e-mail]

Like I said, if you've got actual evidence (as opposed to rumor) that the Liberal Gun Club are not
what they purport to be, by all means post it. Sunlight is the best disinfectant.

[Eleanors38]

9. "...Most 'liberal' gun groups..." Then you should have ample evidence, right?

[friendly_iconoclast]

15. I've asked for evidence. As yet, none has been produced.

[HangOnKids]

20. There is this whooshing sound

Yeah, that one right over your heads.

[friendly_iconoclast]

39. Not really, we prefer verifiable facts over faith

Of course, merely saying that marks us as agents of Satan...err, the NRA for some.

[friendly_iconoclast]

57. And two days after asking, no evidence has been produced...

[sarisataka]

6. It would be beneficial

to have a group challenge the NRA in the training certification arena. Right now there is no other organization to go to to learn about firearms or any other safety program for children.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

16. They would be more effective than the NRA.

Democratic politicians buying into gun control myths will be deaf to the NRA -- and I can't say as I blame them because the NRA is a predominantly a GOP beneficial organization. Only red state Democrats have any use for the NRA. The bulk of Dem pols need a group they can relate to without sleeping with the enemy.

[Fumesucker]

7. The majority of drivers operate a car on the road every day or nearly every day

In fact the average commute time for the US is 25 minutes.

It would be a fairly unusual gun owner who fired their weapon(s) every day, let alone fired it for 25 minutes continuously every day.

Comparing the death rate for cars to that for guns is not a valid comparison, instead compare the death rate per use of the item in question. In that case the death rate per use for cars is far lower than that for guns.

[friendly_iconoclast]

14. Making it all the more important that those that *do* own guns know how to operate them...

..in a safe manner. Not practicing with a gun you own is an excellent way to increase the odds that it will used in an
unsafe manner. Ending the NRA's near-monoply on gun instruction a) makes it more accessable to non-
right wingers, and b) gives the NRA a good kick in the slats.

And according to certain DUers, merely being near a gun is dangerous:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023433039

[Fumesucker]

17. Being near a gun is more dangerous than not being near one, all else being equal

In fact I had a deer rifle pointed at me late last year, the owner was so excited and distracted he had no idea his gun was pointed right at me.

The same guy bought his 12 year old daughter a deer rifle for Christmas, I hope he teaches her better safety habits than he displayed himself.

Here's my post I put up about the incident in January this year.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2168660

[oneshooter]

22. Factor in that vehicles are not designed to kill,

yet they do, on a regular basis.

[Fumesucker]

35. Multi ton machines moving at high speeds under haphazard operation are inherently dangerous

The kinetic energy in a car going 40 mph is enough to reduce it to a pile of twisted and mangled scrap metal, far more energy than any personal firearm might impart to a projectile, even a .50 cal sniper rifle.

However unlike guns cars do have other uses besides killing living things.

[friendly_iconoclast]

41. "However unlike guns cars do have other uses besides killing living things."

And yet cars are still more likely to kill you than a gun is, and the odds are even worse if you count
the effects of pollution from their manufacture, use, and the need to find oil to fuel them...

[Fumesucker]

43. By no means are cars remotely as deadly as guns in terms of deaths per hour of actual use

And not all cars need oil any more either, that is a trend that's only going to accelerate.

[friendly_iconoclast]

45. A few posts ago, guns were dangerous just from being around them.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023469891#post17

Now they're more dangerous while being used.
Which way is it?

[Fumesucker]

47. What I said was all else being equal being around guns is more dangerous than not being around them

Evidently you disagree.

[burnodo]

52. That's the key.

Cars are designed to do other things, but unfortunately can end up being very destructive. The SINGULAR purpose of guns is to kill.

[Lee-Lee]

8. Thanks for posting this

Going to see what their instructor qualification process is and if it will be worth it for me.

[Eleanors38]

10. DU members owe it to themselves to read this. She has looked at the "gun issue"...

and has come away with an outlook not in keeping with the controller/banners, here and elsewhere.

Expect her to be condemned as RW, pro-NRA, Astro-Turf, brain-washed, or just a plain liar.

But she goes against authoritarian doctrine and rigid narratives which are daily promulgated by controller/banners, and she looks right into the hideous culture war that has built up around these doctrines and narratives and has made up her own mind.

Are you liberal enough to read and understand what she is saying?

[Blue_Tires]

11. So I take it that you're a member as well?

[Eleanors38]

12. A member of what? The essay is from the "Good" web site, I believe.

If you mean a member of the Liberal Gun Club, not yet. I am still weighing options about which liberal or non-partisan pro-2A group I will join. The beginnings of a gun-use instruction program is a positive in LGC's favor as it indicates some long-term viability. The Blue Steel Democrats seem to be increasingly long-term, but Northwest-oriented.

What do you think of LGC, if this is what you are referring to?

[Blue_Tires]

13. Yeah, I was just wondering if you had any firsthand experience with them...

[Eleanors38]

19. No, just reading their posts and watching their programs...

The important part of this OP is the experience of the writer. It's one thing for a news editor to send a reporter (usually female) to the gun range to see what all the fuss is about, and to take lots of pretty pics; it's quite another to see this reporter go into the subject with hardened views, yet come away with such a different point of view, and one which resonates with what a lot of folks have been saying on DU. She picks up on the increasingly shrill and divisive nature of "gun issues" among liberals, and speculates on why there may be an expansion of gun-ownership among liberals. We don't know for sure that is happening, though the anecdotes she cites give an indication this is true. BTW, this is augmented by some data (in Connecticut, of all places) where the number of permits increased significantly after Sandy Hook. These are not merely CCW permits but the state's permit requirement to own any number of guns. The upshot, there is a strong increase in the number of gun-owners. But for now this remains speculation because not enough time and effort has been spent studying any trends, should there be any. IMO, this is because of the Balkanization of politics around guns.

Liberalism suffers when it can't move beyond moral condemnation to take seriously so-called counter viewpoints and speculation. I thought we were supposed to be good at that.

[HangOnKids]

21. The Balkanization of politics around guns?

Holy crap that is HILARIOUS!!! Oh and paragraph breaks are helpful.

[Eleanors38]

23. So, what do you think of the OP?

[HangOnKids]

24. I was replying to you

If I had something to say to the OP I would have posted to the OP. Thanks for asking though.

[Eleanors38]

25. Then your reply is meaningless. nt

[HangOnKids]

26. Do you think I give 2 shits what you think?

Please, go away Stevie.

[Eleanors38]

27. You came here just to ask me to go away?...

I think you evidently care a LOT for what I say.













And I'm still here, hangie.

[pintobean]

30. Quite contrary

[burnodo]

32. ummm...yes?

Apparently you do

[HangOnKids]

38. LOL I am so sorry about all your hidden posts

[burnodo]

51. I'm not

I don't have any power over my posts being hidden or not except to check myself in what I type. I did not mean to jump on you, but it was obvious the poster had pushed a button. I hate guns and think they should all be melted down into something useful.

[Blue_Tires]

56. Well, assuming this group doesn't view

Zimmerman as Jesus on the fucking cross, I might be interested...

[Eleanors38]

58. Can you imagine anyone named 'Zimmerman' on a cross?

[tumtum]

55. I'm a member of the LGC

and I'm here to tell you they are a great gun club, they generally stay out of the limelight and work behind the scenes to get good firearms laws passed, they're in favor of Universal Background Checks, they're in line with Gabby Giffords goals, they don't throw "controversial gun rights bombs" like the NRA or the GOA. They have their own training program with their own certified instructors not related in any way to the NRA instructor program.

All in all, they're a really great club to belong to for liberals and moderates who are sick and tired of the divisiveness of the gun control issue.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

18. I was pro-gun control once upon a time. I went shooting a few times, educate myself.

I learned to set aside unfounded fears.

I *would* have considered myself merely a moderate but those I left behind in the pro-control side of the aisle are so nasty, petty and just plain ol' ill-tempered (thank God they don't have guns!) I find myself drifting from the median to open advocacy. I also resent their insistence that I don't know what's best for my body and my family. They're all about defending a woman's right to abortion in the event of rape but they refuse to defend her right to not be raped in the first place.

[Lee-Lee]

29. Bingo

I am just as pro choice on abortion as I am on gun ownership.

Honestly, if the DNC dropped gun control they wouldn't lose a single vote. Very, very few vote based on pro gun control stance and those who do are generally very liberal anyway. But there are. Plenty, especially in states like NC, who are moderates but get swayed away from voting democratic by the issue of gun control.

Drop gun control, endorse resposnible concealed carry and ownership, shut the politicians on our side who talk about confiscation up, and we would take a majority forever.

[Bake]

31. Whoomp there it is.

I agree wholeheartedly!



Bake

[Populist_Prole]

49. Another bingo

I can think of so many people I see every day that the only reason they vote GOP is the gun issue, the recent push by pols for gun control gave them all they needed to hear. It's a stupid issue for the democratic party to run on since no democratic voter is NOT going to vote democratic just because they're non anti-gun enough. They should put their energies in the real most important issue: the stranglehold the corporatists have on policy.

I'm a progressive and a gun enthusiast, and my vote counts as much as any other democratic voter.

[burnodo]

33. I'm liberal enough to know that guns are meaningless death machines

Oh, I know, "I gotta defend myself" types are all over the place, but the gun was made for one purprose and that should be, at least, recognized by gun advocates.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

34. They'll recognize it....

...but getting them to actually admit it is a whole other story.

[Fumesucker]

36. Here's one that admitted it right in this thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023469891#post22

Although I don't think that's what the poster meant to do.

[Fumesucker]

37. This thread is useless without pictures

[friendly_iconoclast]

40. #1: ALWAYS FOCUS ON EMOTIONAL AND VALUE-DRIVEN ARGUMENTS ABOUT GUN VIOLENCE...

....NOT THE POLITICAL
FOOD FIGHT IN WASHINGTON OR WONKY STATISTICS.


#3: CLAIM MORAL AUTHORITY AND THE MANTLE OF FREEDOM.

Sources for more detailed talking points


http://www.progressivemajorityaction.org/sources_for_more_detailed_talking_points


Who says we're not willing to help out?

[Fumesucker]

42. I value the lives of children more than I do firearms

Evidently that makes me a bad person.

[friendly_iconoclast]

44. Then help Democrats in pro-gun states get elected.

That will help save far more childrens' lives than a futile pursuit of a moralistic crusade.

[Fumesucker]

46. I'm not on any sort of crusade at all, I'm just arguing on an online forum

I had a high powered hunting rifle pointed right at me last deer season, the buck with his guts blown out in the back of the pickup didn't make it any more comfortable for me. The more guns are around the more casually people take the responsibility of handling them.

I posted about my experience on Jan 10 this year.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2168660

[rl6214]

59. Here's another one

http://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/progressivemajorityaction/pages/64/attachments/original/1363644630/Voicing_Our_Values-To_Curtail_Gun_Violence.pdf?1363644630

[Paladin]

48. Way to fire, DU Gun Enthusiasts.

Whatever beneficial aspects of The Liberal Gun Club may have, have been nullified by your snarky-assed, agenda-heavy posts on this thread. Thanks for your reliable help.

[friendly_iconoclast]

53. I doubt that. If someone is open enough to go beyond their comfort zone...

...(as in the case of the author of the linked article), or unwilling to cede ownership of gun politics
solely to extremists on both sides they might very well find the LGC congenial.

I'll concede that there are two sorts that will never be willing to give the LGC a chance-

a) The NRA leadership and those even further Right (Gun Owners of America, et al) simply because
they despise liberals and progressives with the burning hatred of a thousand suns, and

b) Hard-core gun haters who need a Great Satan in the convenient form of the NRA.
The mere existence of the LGC fucks up their narrative of "Gun owner= trogolodyte"

These are the types who claim here at DU (without presenting any evidence, mind you)
that the LGC is a false-flag op by the NRA.

[Paladin]

54. I stand by my comments. (nt)