General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWow. With all these NSA revelations rolling in Obama's legacy may not be Obamacare.
He may go down in history as the Orwellian Big Brother president who destroyed personal privacy if he's not careful.
Nixon thought he would go down in history as the president that opened up China to the world but it didn't quite work out that way.
Obama is in danger of the same kind of thing.
A serious betrayal of the public trust and Constitutional law could overshadow anything else he accomplishes.
The right hasn't caught on yet that this is becoming Obama's achilles heel but if they do, look out.
He'd better start reconsidering his opinion of Snowden pretty soon because I'm pretty sure that history will.
Th1onein
(8,514 posts)This story has the legs of a millipede. It AIN'T going away. Americans are not going to put up with being spied on. And Obama is in danger of having this as his legacy, instead of Obamacare. What a shame.
ProSense
(116,464 posts)This NSA incident is not going to remotely be "Obama's legacy."
Not remotely.
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)...I wish the left would stop "helping" so much.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)first to be the Director of Intelligence. This leftie would have chosen a Democrat eg. The 'left' didn't appoint Clapper to oversee the choosing of the 'Independent' committee to begin looking into all of this.
This leftie would have chosen Ron Wyden or some other Democrat.
It's getting ridiculous to try to keep blaming other people for decisions this President makes.
Do YOU agree with all the Republicans he has placed in positions of power in his Cabinet? If we wanted Republicans in positions of power, we would have voted for them. We didn't.
This leftie would have chosen a Democrat for SOD eg. I have faith that we have Democrats who could fill these rolls.
Right wingers have pointed out to me that this President 'knows that Democrats can't take care of our Security so even he has to turn to Republicans'. Do you know how it feels to have fought agaisnt this meme for over a decade and then have to try to defend these decisions?
I don't defend them anymore, because I can't.
WE are being undermined, not the President.
Rex
(65,616 posts)Blaming the Left has kept them in a cozy state of denial for years...must suck coming to some simple conclusions you don't want to discuss on a discussion board. Let them knee jerk. That is all that is left.
bbgrunt
(5,281 posts)last1standing
(11,709 posts)It's a lazy argument to blame the messenger instead of the culprit.
Mojorabbit
(16,020 posts)I have been a huge supporter of this President. I was sure he was going to go left after this last election esp after the campaign. I have given up on him now. I still can't believe he sent McCain and LG to Egypt. Good grief, we have plenty of great Dems who should have been sent. That is one of a hundred odd and disappointing things he has done. He could have been the best President this country has ever had. He really could have been.
Fringe
(175 posts)24/7 Obama hate. I can even imagine their heads spinning around while they type.
Kablooie
(18,619 posts)So far he has given the impression that he is complicit in the illegal spying.
He may not be but his actions so far have done nothing to correct that impression.
nebenaube
(3,496 posts)your assertions not withstanding...
Fearless
(18,421 posts)And those that didn't will not.
That's how these things work.
Savannahmann
(3,891 posts)How can you make such a statement with a straight face? Every ten days or so another revelation comes out from the plethora of documents that Snowden gave to the reporters. We couldn't get lucky enough for Greenwald to hold the remainder for a book as was mentioned before. At least then the revelations would come all at once, and only one or two would be significantly outrageous enough to garner attention, the rest lost in the flood of data.
President Obama's popularity continues to decline, and eventually he's going to be left with the core groups of the Democratic Party. But one of those groups is people like myself who continue to believe that Civil Rights is an important issue. How long before we can no longer honestly answer that we approve of President Obama's actions when we are polled? More and more of us are.
What do we do if Republicans get more stature in the Senate and hold onto the House? Do you realize that the Republicans need only take six more Senate seats to control that chamber? Then all the tea party cuts to Government will be the choice of President Obama. Sign them, or shut the Government down. How much will he have to sacrifice to keep what he can't afford to lose?
Then you'll have Rand Paul on the hunt for the Oval Office, playing up the NSA spying all the time, demanding that information that is being withheld, be released. He may even release some himself on the floor of the Senate, where the Constitution says he has the right to debate it. Oh sure, we can piss and moan about his violating security, but other than that we would be left with another pile of crap to chew on.
I don't think you realize that this is the most dangerous time our party has faced since Ronald Reagan. At least with President Clinton's scandal, we had the argument that everyone would lie about cheating. We can't say that everyone would read and listen communications if they could. If anyone else did it they would go to jail for wiretapping.
ProSense, we have to decide what is good for our party long term. Holding onto the millstone of NSA spying as it drags us to the depths of disaster is not a good policy. Let the jackass Republicans argue we need to spy on the American People, we need to come out in favor of and as the staunchest defenders of Human Rights that the nation has ever seen. If we continue to join with the same jackass Republicans we say are wrong on every other issue, holding hands and linking arms with them for the authority to spy on Americans, how do we extricate ourselves when even the most determined defenders of the party realize it is a bad idea? How do we run against them in fifteen months when all we can offer as a party is that we totally agree with them on NSA spying, we just think they're assholes on other issues?
Think it through. Not just what excuses we're going to have to use today, or tomorrow, but where we'll be in a year praying that we don't lose the Senate. Because if we are very smart, and a little lucky, we might be able to. Holding onto this millstone? We're going to lose it to the Paulites in the Rethug party.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)and very well said.
1awake
(1,494 posts)depending on which road he chooses to walk will determine which way he is remembered.
DJ13
(23,671 posts)And attempt to make headway in ending many of them, but the longer he waivers and misstates the reach of the programs the more they become his programs.
And his legacy will be damaged.
He has to start being upfront with people, though a part of me thinks these programs now have too much importance to the elites, so he may not be allowed to deal with them in any meaningful way.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Obamacare will always be the bigger story. It's a much bigger story today, and affects many million more lives.
Kablooie
(18,619 posts)If he is seen as being supportive of illegal spying it could overshadow everything else, especially if the GOP decides it will be a win for them.
That's why I hope he takes control of the situation instead of simply denying it exists.
uponit7771
(90,323 posts)Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)First; How will anyone know? If the Orwellian state gets to the point of a Memory Hole that's the end of history, Obama will have the legacy he chooses.
Second; The right will have a hard time attacking Obama on this because a lot of them are too wrapped up in fapping off to fevered dreams of total and universal surveillance. Oh, they'll make a pro-forma attack or thirty but their hearts won't be in it.
FirstLight
(13,357 posts)sad, but true. Especially the part about the Memory Hole...
liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)ucrdem
(15,512 posts)In 4-1/2 years Obama completely transformed the US intel landscape -- for the better. Where once there was opacity and silence there is now transparency and determination to keep fixing problems until everything is all straightened out.
How many internal compliance audits "leaked" out of the Bushler NSA, for example? Do you think they ever bothered to conduct one? Or to answer FOIA requests for incident reports naming Noam Chomsky?
It's a whole new world and Snowball doesn't like it. Neither did Manning. So under bad advice they both thought they'd drop a dime on Obama and bring down the house. Unsurprisingly, they both failed.
LondonReign2
(5,213 posts)and wonders why you never come over anymore.
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)tavalon
(27,985 posts)We're all entitled to our own opinions. Facts, OTOH, are facts and we don't get to change them any more than the Bush Maladministration did.
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)But your side is likeable enough.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)LondonReign2
(5,213 posts)That's a half-step below "I know you are but what am I?"
Aerows
(39,961 posts)cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)ucrdem
(15,512 posts)let alone leak? Come on. We weren't even allowed to discuss the NSA publicly and now it's the subject of afternoon chat shows.
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)Do those two really go together? I've tried and tried and can't for the life of me make them fit together.
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)Maybe we should change the specs but it is what it is, and the infractions are minor and recorded with reassuring due diligence.
tavalon
(27,985 posts)Damn, I think I just pissed myself laughing.
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)Trust Democrats to dot their i's and dot their t's:
http://apps.washingtonpost.com/g/page/national/nsa-report-on-privacy-violations-in-the-first-quarter-of-2012/395/
tavalon
(27,985 posts)It's not transparent if it requires whistleblowers and well, it clearly does, ergo, not transparent. But I'm speaking to the choir here. Sheesh.
On the plus side, so many of our fellow DUers are getting so flexible with all of these pretzel stances they've been practicing. Yoga masters they are. Illogical, but bendy.
nebenaube
(3,496 posts)There are no terrorists, just a list of burned cia assets. You know, the same crew that flooded this country with crack, opium, heroin, weed and hash during the Soviet-Afgani war so they could buy weapons to fight the soviets.
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)JFK said as much in 1963 and no one has said it better. Nevertheless, the prospect of dismantling the US security apparatus is challenging, to say the least.
SammyWinstonJack
(44,130 posts)uponit7771
(90,323 posts)progressoid
(49,961 posts)Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)The Libertarian wing of their party isn't as strong as the Right to Privacy wing of ours.
Hydra
(14,459 posts)Like trying to bully/beg Putin for Snowden or these ridiculous defenses of the NSA.
I really don't get why he thought his legacy/image was more important than doing the work we elected him to do- the dismantling of Bushco. The fact that he was even thinking about it should have been a warning sign.
MuseRider
(34,103 posts)On all points. Excellent post.
Kablooie
(18,619 posts)truebluegreen
(9,033 posts)JaneyVee
(19,877 posts)DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)ProSense
(116,464 posts)that was supposed to be a bad thing.
Hydra
(14,459 posts)The White House has. I have no idea why they thought following the policies of the worst President ever(unelected, too) would lead to this President having a legacy of...a new Lincoln?
Why are they even talking with a straight face about the Legacy of someone who hadn't even gotten into office yet? We had a HUGE mess after Bushco, and his biggest fear is not that he can't get it all done...he's worried about his 3 lines in the history books?
tavalon
(27,985 posts)It's damn messy that way but much better than lockstep.
Cha
(297,026 posts)Zoeisright
(8,339 posts)God, I am so sick of the pantry-wringing pearl-clutching whiners.
Just Saying
(1,799 posts)Damn right though.
Kablooie
(18,619 posts)Mojorabbit
(16,020 posts)Demo_Chris
(6,234 posts)Will be insurance mandates and corporatist corruption, and the largest and most terrifying expansion of post-constitutional power in American history.
Remember, this is not only the President who has claimed the right and power to spy on Americans...
He has also claimed the power to KILL them.
Divernan
(15,480 posts)The history of war powers is complex and fraught with differing interpretations from the beginning. Still, it is difficult to picture any of the Founders contemplating a president who would maintain a kill list in the absence of a declared war. This is part of what John Marshall, later to become chief justice, said in support of ratifying the Constitution: Shall it be a maxim that a man shall be deprived of his life without the benefit of law? Shall such a deprivation of life be justified by answering that a mans life was not taken secundem artem, because he was a bad man?
"The next presidential election is crucial because the next president will determine the kind of Supreme Court we have. Candidates who are on record as supporting the Patriot Act, the prison at Guantanamo Bay and the National Security Agencys warrantless surveillance of domestic electronic communications should be summarily dismissed from consideration. Unfortunately, the only likely candidate who has stepped forward so far and supported the common-sense constitutional view of these things is Rand Paul. Paul is a Libertarian, and that is a dangerous form of political lunacy. Pauls view of the matter does, though, serve to illustrate a very important point: if ever there was a nonpartisan, purely American issue on which left and right could agree, this is surely it."
http://www.clydefitchreport.com/2013/08/need-a-constitution-were-not-using-this-one/
Demo_Chris
(6,234 posts)Maintaining a secret "Kill List" of other Americans.
Americans he has decided must be killed without legal process. It is unprecedented so far as I know.
Dawson Leery
(19,348 posts)Obama needs to fix these problems. Richard Blumenthal and Pat Leahy have offered the first part.
Kablooie
(18,619 posts)nebenaube
(3,496 posts)I would vote to impeach a republican for this. He has to power to fix this. But he trembles.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)We're pushing 6 years in.
Obama signed an extension of the patriot act in 2011.
A few years ago, it should have become apparent to even casual observers that he's delivering what he wants to deliver.
CakeGrrl
(10,611 posts)Snowden.
Only in this bubble of group-reinforced doom over the ever-overreaching "surveillance state" is this a looming disaster for the President.
In the real world, people are trying to get/hold onto healthcare to save theirs or their loved ones' lives.
People are trying to afford college.
Others are trying not to be profiled by "stop and frisk" or by this REAL totalitarian overreach of having to be fingerprinted to live in a housing complex.
Freaking out that the government COULD/MAYBE/MIGHT have the potential to read your e-mails (without actual proof that they're DOING it)? Maybe not the biggest worry for a lot of people.
nebenaube
(3,496 posts)CakeGrrl
(10,611 posts)Translation: Your disagreement freaks me out so much, I can't bear to see your screen handle anymore!
What was that someone said above about this place losing its collective mind? Little by little each day!
Divernan
(15,480 posts)on this one.
mick063
(2,424 posts)Cripes, it was damaged goods before this shit hit the fan.
Chained CPI
Too big to prosecute
Crackdown on marijuana in otherwise state legal dispensaries
Corporate Cabinet
TPP behind everyone's back with corporations writing the law.
Too late to "save" his legacy. It is shot all to hell. A footnote in history. A James Buchanon. A Millard Fillmore.
Possibly a Richard Nixon.
SammyWinstonJack
(44,130 posts)DeSwiss
(27,137 posts)K&R
Safetykitten
(5,162 posts)Just Saying
(1,799 posts)But most Americans aren't all that concerned about this and will forget it quickly because it doesn't involve sex.
Kablooie
(18,619 posts)It's just a matter of time.
Fringe
(175 posts)Even the republican Obama haters where I work have never ever talked about it. They talk about Obama care plenty.
quakerboy
(13,918 posts)FDR had the new deal.
He also had the Japanese American Internment camps.
Safetykitten
(5,162 posts)uponit7771
(90,323 posts)...but of course fudr, winger and hand ringers could care less
Aerows
(39,961 posts)I keep seeing you use this, and I have no idea what it means.
quakerboy
(13,918 posts)No human is a clone of another. till we get cloning up and running, anyway. But even then, environment will mean that each of us is still individual. So of course Obama is not FDR.
And my point remains. A presidents legacy can have multiple aspects. Assuming our country survives, I believe his basic inaction in slowing the war/spying machine will be remembered as shameful. Assuming that the ACA law survives the next presidency, and the one after that, and is eventually upgraded and problems start to be resolved, that may well become a much larger story.
But the future is the future. Maybe his legacy, the things we tell our kids about won't be even in the ballpark of these things. Or maybe history will pass him by as a foot note. I kind of suspect that will be the legacy of Clinton or the first Bush.. in a few decades, I suspect either one will barely rate a mention in the history books. And I dont see Obama Policy as diverging much from either of theirs.
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)He also lied us into the Vietnam War with The Gulf of Tonkin Incident.
He even joked about it years later, saying the Navy was shooting at whales for all he knew.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)creeksneakers2
(7,473 posts)of what the NSA issue has done to his popularity and will likely do to his legacy. He must truly believe in the program to spend this much capital defending it. He knows more about it than you.
ThoughtCriminal
(14,047 posts)Was his legacy Japanese-American internment camps, or the New Deal?
The former has been recognized as a mistake by almost everyone, but no question, he is remembered most for Social Security.
liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)about how he wanted to do big things such as infrastructure like FDR did. Do you think most of our kids know who FDR is? Most adults can only sputter out one or two facts about the man.
ThoughtCriminal
(14,047 posts)know more about Social Security and FDR than will ever know what NSA stands for.
spin
(17,493 posts)
Which President signed the Social Security Act?
a) Abraham Lincoln
b) George Washington
c) Woodrow Wilson
d) Franklin D. Roosevelt
e) John F. Kennedy
only 20% would pick the right answer.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)... then it would have been a lasting legacy. In fact, it would have been a lasting *democratic* legacy.
FDR signed the internment order on Feb 19, 1942. On January 2nd 1945 he rescinded it.
The PATRIOT act was adopted in 2001 with a sunset provision. 10 years later, Obama signed an extension of that law.
It is his legacy, and he should own it. It pisses me off that because of him, Democrats own it.
pnwmom
(108,972 posts)and ignoring FISA courts entirely.
So why didn't you give Bush that honor?
Pretzel_Warrior
(8,361 posts)NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)Fringe
(175 posts)Great president period.
Coyotl
(15,262 posts)on that front, working directly for Rand Paul.
Unless, of course, politics isn't what it has always been, and the R's will claim Bush's crimes as their own.