So kids today basically have to go into massive debt in order to have a chance at a decent career?

[davidn3600]

According to Collegeboard.org
Avg tuition for a public in-state tuition (undergrad) = $8,655 / year
Avg tuition for a private in-state tuition (undergrad) = $29,056 / year

So the average cost for a bachelors degree at an in-state, public school would run around $35,000. And that's without books, housing, and any other supplies.

Graduate school is even more expensive. Law school is astronomical. Such degrees can easily cost over $125,000.

Now that the job market is thin, even many entry level jobs are raising their requirements. Which means jobs that previously only needed a HS diploma or GED now need a bachelors degree. On the surface this may sound not so bad. It could force kids to aim for more education. There are two big problems though. One is that the pressure for more education means students taking out loans that will financially strap them for many years to come. The second problem is the poor/disadvantaged will suffer now that jobs they would have had are now going to college grads. That means they will struggle in a thinning job pool. You also will have degree inflation where the value of a degree on the market will go down as more people get that degree. The fact is that in 1970, having a 4-year degree in anything was impressive. Today, employers don't even care. All it does is meet a requirement now.

Statistics are showing this is significantly hurting the millennials. It is hurting their earning power as any extra funds they have is going to repaying the student loans. Many of them are putting off marriage and family. Over 1/3rd of them are still living with parents even stretching into their 30s.

And tuition is continuing to go up with no limit in sight. This is going to get worse and worse and going to be a significant problem for the future economy. And it is something nobody seems to have an answer for...

[Downwinder]

1. There are some good opportunities available

for vocational training in athletics.

[NYC_SKP]

2. One can make more money in the trades. Training provided, college too for those who want it.

And before too long, $70,000/year reaching six figures in just a few years.

Good hard honest work.

[Go Vols]

36. +1

[indie9197]

55. Bingo. I don't understand the stigma of blue collar jobs

My work involves working with various trades as well as white collar management. The smartest guys I have ever known are the blue collar types, guys that can build anything or fix anything. If I could do it over I would have learned a trade I was interested in before I went to college. It would be a good insurance policy for possible unemployment as well as being just plain useful.

[Warpy]

3. Yes and no

If they want a liberal arts degree to slot them into a comfortable life as a mid level manager, they are shit out of luck. Most of those positions either no longer exist or were shipped offshore to follow the manufacturing jobs. We've gotten to a very weird place in this country, where a fine arts degree has better employment prospects because at least they haven't gotten much worse.

For those who want hands-on careers that deal with real people and real stuff, the two to three year training programs can be a great deal, not terribly overpriced and training for skilled jobs for which there will always be a demand in this country no matter how many managers are hired in overseas.

There are little glamor and few glitzy offices to be had in these careers, but people have managed to open their own shops and become quite comfortable on them, meaning they can put their own kids through school and still retire well.

[WCGreen]

4. I went to Ohio State, Cleveland State and two of the Community Colleges that are

close by...

I graduated in 1987 and spent about $ 9,500 for tuition, books for my degree.

I don't have any idea how to compare the costs but all I can say is I worked to pay for most of the living expenses and some of my tuition. I borrowed about $4,000 and was paid off by 1992.

The problem I see is that the would be students are disconnected from the actual cost of college. The people who run Universities and Colleges are not fools. They are aware of this situation and have taken the price almost exponentially.

[sweetapogee]

15. very well stated

Last edited Mon Aug 19, 2013, 01:14 PM - Edit history (1)

I have a liberal arts B.S. degree from 1981 however I always wanted a B.S. in the science/medical field. The main reason for not having that degree today, the one I really wanted back in the day is due to my math skills which were not up to par.

Tonight i begin my 4th semester as a PT student (I have a full time job and a part time job), this semester I'm taking 7 credits which will be the last of my pre-requisite and remedial classes before I begin to tackle gen chem 1&2 and organic chem 1&2. I hope to take gen chem 1 in the spring 2014 semester and go from there. The short term goal is to get through the 4 semesters of chemistry already mentioned, the long term goal is to earn a B.S. degree in medical technology. I intend to do all of this without taking on any debt.

OK, I take some of the money I earn from my part time job allow me to pay cash for tuition, books and transportation to my local community college. All of my educational expenses including the semester that starts today are paid and I have no debt, and I'm able to pay all of my other living expenses same as before I started this program.

So on the one hand I acknowledge that community college generally only covers the first two years of a 4 year degree and that not everyone can find a community college that is a good academic fit for their future academic plans. However, I feel strongly that going into massive debt and earning some degrees with limited earnings potential are a choice that the student makes and can be considered in many cases a self inflicted wound. In other words, it may not be what you want but rather what is the best possible return for my investment in time and expenses that should guide the student today as far as a college education is concerned. I'm a big fan of first 2 years of community college then off to a state univ.

[WCGreen]

53. What I did miss was the dorm experience...

Not because I was out on my own because I had an apartment in town two months after I graduated high school. What I felt I missed was the bonds made in the dorms. I was accepted in a group of people who lived on the same coed floor at Ohio State. Still, I was always on the inside looking out.

But that wasn't enough to have any deep regrets.

What did make it better was the people I met as a Page for the Ohio House. I still keep in touch with a dozen or so ex pages. That was my true beginning in the world of politics.

[hollysmom]

5. this country should educate the young,

it is an investment to the future of the country and I say this as a person who benefitted from the massive inexpensive (subsidized) colleges in the 60's.

[Recursion]

6. Not really. My brother does well as an electrician and has no degree

I think we need to get over this idea that everybody needs to go to college.

[uponit7771]

8. We should advocate for the idea that EVERYONE who WANTS to go to college should be able

...to.

I do agree with the electrician degree, from my own personal experiments with AE the electrcian will be the new software engineer type carreer in 20 years

[Recursion]

9. Oh, I totally agree with that.

I just think "going to college" and "getting vocationally prepared" are (or at least should be) kind of unrelated.

[uponit7771]

10. True, also my understanding in some states the AC repair person, the electrician, the plumber

...are in deep need.

I'm trying to help my nephew get into a place but he's seen the money needs and it's a turn off.

[davidn3600]

12. The trades though are not easy to get into

For most of them, you need an apprenticeship. And those can be very difficult to come by. It's not as simple as taking a vocational class and finding an entry level job.

Many times these days, you got to know people in the industry already.

Yeah, the demand for these people are high...but it's somewhat of a closed society.

[Go Vols]

34. Knowing people does help quite a bit

I hooked my son up with the right people when he was 18,and now at 24 he will probably make around 80k this year running the Ironwork on big jobs.Close to a third of it will be in the form of profit sharing/bonuses.

[taught_me_patience]

40. Rampant nepotism exists in trade unions

blocking candidate from entering the field.

[petronius]

23. I agree: a college education should be available to everyone who wants it, at

whatever stage of life they happen to be (and personally, I'd rather see more people coming back to the university after a few years or decades, rather than just jumping straight in after HS before the desire has fully developed). And job or vocational training should not be viewed as the primary or only goal of that education.

Unfortunately, it seems that a lot of universities are shifting more towards assessing themselves based on value-returned for a degree (how much do graduates earn?) and not the far-more-difficult-to-assess concept of 'college education.' And, it seems that for a lot of schools, the 'lifestyle experience' part of the university product is valued more highly than the 'educated citizen' outcome - we seem to be pitching college as "You'll have a rockin' good time in our wave pool, get a job paying $XXX,XXX, and don't forget to join the alumni association and kick back some of those megabucks at the end of it all!"

[sorefeet]

39. Amen, I was a master

painter from residential to commercial to Industrial coatings. Paperhanger to drywall to anything. And was never without a job. Someone always needs something painted. I got a GED. in the Army and learned a skill. If I hadn't destroyed my bodies infrastructure from all the work I could go out today and find a job painting something, that's a guarantee. More people need a hands on trade. The UNION will teach you everything you need to know about any trade.

[uponit7771]

7. I don't think so, kids now have less choices of college but don't HAVE to go into massive debt

...get to a CC for two years then a 4 year and 6 year online..

WAY cheaper

[a la izquierda]

11. Yep.

Three public universities, three degrees (BA, MA, PhD), and 6 figures of debt.

[cbdo2007]

13. No, they don't. They just need to get their priorities straight and have a realistic outlook

of the outcomes of their education.

[Harmony Blue]

14. This can't be a serious post on DU?

When you finish with an engineering degree the realistic outlook is that you find an engineering job. Obviously that is NOT happening so yeah the jobs are not there and the cost to obtain the degree is too high for most.

Our country has education backwards compared to the rest of the world.

[cbdo2007]

16. Why would someone get an engineering degree if there are no engineering jobs available??

Get a degree in something else.

Even if an engineering degree was free that doesn't mean there will be MORE engineering jobs! Also, that would just make the engineering jobs currently out there pay less.

[Safetykitten]

17. That's the spirit! Get something in something. There should be something.

[cbdo2007]

20. That isn't what I said. I said, get a degree in something where you can get a job.

People think they can just go to college and get a degree in whatever they want and that within 2 weeks of graduation they'll have a spouse, 2 kids, a dog, a 3,000sq ft house, a mercedes, traveling to NY and Las Vegas every other weekend with their friends, wine and steak every night at dinner....

I know plenty of people exactly like this. They see what people in their 40's and 50's have and think they get all that stuff automatically, JUST by having a college degree in SOMETHING.

Nope, smart people graduate college, get the first job that comes along in whatever field making nothing while they get experience actually having a real job, and they live with their parents for 2-5 years, and drive a shitty car, and eat mac & cheese for lunch, and a vacation is going camping 45 minutes from their house for the weekend in a state park. That's how it works in other countries, so as long as we're comparing college debt to other countries, let's make the comparison fair....and American's have way more OTHER debt and ridiculous bullshit frivilous junk than people in other countries, yet still everyone blames it all on colleges charging too much.

[Harmony Blue]

18. You can't be serious...

so everyone should forgo a college degree (eg engineering degree) for a job in retail for the rest of their lives (most abundant jobs available)? Have you lost your marbles?

[cbdo2007]

19. What planet are you from exactly, where everyone is entitled to an engineering job

regardless of their background, skills, and future goals? Really, do you have any concept of American or World history?? and how cultures and societies rise and fall???

You've got your problems mixed up....the problem isn't that everyone should get a college degree so they don't have to work in retail, the problem is that only some people should get a college degree but our society tells everyone they should get a college degree even if they can't get a job with it.

What's the point of a college degree? To get a job. What's the point of getting a job? To make money. Too many people nowadays think the world should bend and form to their preconceived notion of how it should work. Rather, look at how the world and societies have worked since the beginning of time and that is how they are going to work in the future. We see it over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over again.

[Harmony Blue]

30. It isn't entitlement it is being real

if a college student with an engineering degree can't find a job what degree should they pursue?

[cbdo2007]

35. One with a lot of jobs hiring.

If I was going into school right now I'd probably focus on IT, business, health care administration, or Finance.

Your way of thinking is like if you want a Nachos platter from Taco Bell, then you go to McDonald's and they don't have it, so you get mad at McDonald's for not having a Nachos platter.

[Harmony Blue]

37. Almost everyone has a degree in business

these days and they are unemployed as a result.

Nice swing and a miss.

Health care administration?

[cbdo2007]

42. "Almost everyone has a degree in business and is unemployed..." hahahahaha, your generalizations

are the reason DU is going downhill. We can't have a logical discussion because you spout out ridiculous statements that are obviously exaggerations rather than a valid point that furthers the discussion.

The great thing about a business degree is you can get your foot in the door anywhere at an entry level with a business degree and I know people with business degrees who get jobs all the time.

You think Health Care Administration isn't a good field to go into???? It's already a great field that pays well, and the closer and closer we get to a single payer system, the more valuable the degree and experience in that field is going to become. You literally can't lose over the next 30 years going into a business/health care field.

[oldhippie]

54. There are engineering jobs .....

I just checked my Alma Mater, which is primarily an engineering school, and they have a placement rate of 96% and an average starting salary of almost $58K.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3450651

[KurtNYC]

21. College is archaic at this point.

There are many paths to a modest income and a college degree by itself is no guarantee of anything.

College should be cheaper and maybe the fees should be a percentage of what you make in the 10 years after college, like a commission. If they did that I think you would see a lot more alignment between college and real jobs.

[seabeyond]

22. sending one this year who is looking to get a law degree. have another 3 yrs out.

i agree totally. it is ridiculous. and it is still doable. since oldest was a freshman it was expected he go to an ivy league. i approached the argument to that many different ways. the foolishness of it, the lack of necessity for it, the lack of results from it. i had to get my family away from the mind think that it was indicative of parenting, where the kid went to school. my in laws are snobs. that simple.

but, i have found that we do what is affordable. we put away funds for academic and books. we have another fund to provide for misc. my son got an out of state scholarship both athletic and academic. so, he gets to go to an out of state school and does not have to get a job. he does have to be frugal.

i have another son that wont walk that path. a mere four year degree. no extra circular. no scholarship. he will and go to the very good in town university at about 5 thousand a year. we have the funds. and he will have to work thru out to provide for outside expenses.

it can be done. and it is hard. and i recognize we are lucky in many areas.

college expenses are ridiculous and i can get very frustrated.

[Initech]

24. That's nothing compared to medical school debt.

My brother is a graduate but he owes his school something in the six figure range.

[Arugula Latte]

25. Hell, at many "public" universities, a BA would cost you $25,000 to $35,000 a YEAR

The University of Oregon, for example, costs $21,000 in tuition alone. That's a freakin' "cheap" state school.

It is utterly ridiculous...and it is because we've allowed our government to be taken over by corporations, who suck us dry.

The military-industrial complex, however, is going strong...

[HooptieWagon]

26. A new class of indentured servants.

Get them heavily in debt before they even begin their career, and they're less likely to cause "trouble".

[deurbano]

27. It's their own fault. The kids (including mine) should have chosen richer parents.

With two kids in the college "pipeline" (one starting middle school, one starting 10th grade: today!) the hyperinflation in college eduction costs has been very scary to witness.

[Fire Walk With Me]

28. What decent careers? Those are being globalized to benefit the very rich.

But then again, the for-profit student loan engine is also to benefit the very rich.

[liberal_at_heart]

29. We need to demand that our federal and state governments restore funding for both K-12 and

universities.

[Harmony Blue]

31. If the Boomer generation and Millennial generation work

together (two of the largest demographics) then it can be done. The 1% tries to pit Boomers against Millennials and the divide and conquer technique is working but we must resist to restore education in this country....

[liberal_at_heart]

45. I agree. We should all be fighting for each other. After all, all young people have older

people in thier lives they care about whether parents or grandparents, and all older people have younger people in their lives they care about whether that is children, grandchildren, nieces, nephews. We all need to stick together and take care of each other.

[Capt. Obvious]

32. What is this topic doing in Greenwald Discussion?

[Harmony Blue]

33. Haha

a break from that discussion is good.

[KamaAina]

51. U winz teh Internets

[Deep13]

38. Don't do it. nt

[woodsprite]

41. My friend's daughter wants to be an illustrator.

She's hoping to break into graphics in either the publishing industry or the video gaming industry. It's just been her and her Mom all of her life, but her Mom did everything she could to get loans to get her into a 2-yr art college with a goal to build her portfolio to enable her to apply to Pratt in NY. She graduated the 2 yrs program this spring and was accepted at Pratt to start on an Illustration/Digital design major. Matter of fact, she moves into her dorm tomorrow. That's a 4yr program at $54K per year, and she's already over $40K in debt for the local 2yr program.

I just can't fathom the debt she'll be graduating with.

[cbdo2007]

43. See, this is a good example of the problem.....

50 years ago, she would have just gotten a generic degree in "Graphic Design" and gotten a job when she graduated at her hometown newspaper. Then, after 10 years she would have that paid off, have 10 years of great experience, and decide she wants to further her career so she would go back to school to get a more specific degree in "illustrating" or something and get one of those few coveted jobs available.

Now, people pay a ton of money for a specialized degree to try to make money with their hobby, and when they get done they find out they're competing with people who've been in the business for 20 years and have connections and experience and no debt, and that their dream job probably doesn't even pay that well to begin with.

Our society tells people they should get instant gratification, regardless of the cost and the debt.

[Egalitarian Thug]

44. Even more than the individuals, our society, should it survive at all, will be paying the bill

for this crime spree for many generations.

Making billionaires is very expensive and refusing to make them give back is just suicidal.

[taught_me_patience]

46. If they are really lucky

Uncle Jack can help get him (yeah HIM only) into the electrician's Union. I'd rather take my chances with a degree.

[AppetiteForApathy]

47. Better make it a degree worth your while.

I never understood why some people go into debt studying subjects that's unlikely to yield more than 30k a year.

Counselors should be guiding them into studying subjects that will have a good ROI.

[taught_me_patience]

48. Maybe because a degree is an education first

Is there no personal value to becoming educated that you're interested in?

[AppetiteForApathy]

50. There's plenty of personal value in it.

And if that's all they're seeking, more power to them.

[lumberjack_jeff]

49. Define "decent".

All too often "decent" means "no dirt under your fingernails at the end of the day".

Credential creep has rendered every indoors job (except perhaps fast food and low level retail) inaccessible to anyone without a degree.

A good high school math curriculum would enable seniors to evaluate ROI.

[FarCenter]

52. Having a 4-year degree in the right major, college, class standing, & activities is still impressive

It's just that so many more people get 4-year degrees now that just having one doesn't count for much.

But a low GPA in a marginal major from a marginal college was never of much value.

And in '70, lots of coeds were in college looking for their Mrs degree.