The UK Government & Those Defending The UK's Actions Prove Every Point Greenwald Wanted To Make.

[kpete]

Making Greenwald's point for him

by David Atkins

I've had my issues with Greenwald. But I don't care if you believe that Greenwald and Snowden are the embodiments of the Anti-Christ. I don't care what documents Greenwald's spouse was carrying, how classified they were, or whether you believe that Greenwald is a journalist. I don't care.

When a government detains someone who is very clearly not a terrorist for nine hours without access to an attorney under a terrorism statute, that government has proven every point Greenwald wanted to make. The argument is over right there.

And every "progressive" with a beef against Greenwald who attempts to defend the UK's actions does nothing more than prove Greenwald's point. Governments that detain civil libertarian bloggers and journalists as terrorists deserve every heaping of scorn they get, as do those who defend them.

http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2013/08/making-greenwalds-point-for-him-by.html

[woo me with science]

1. We are facing tyranny now.

Free nations require a free press. These actions toward journalists and their families are the behaviors of totalitarian rule. They cannot be permitted to stand.

More and more it becomes clear that we are at a grave place in our history. Corporate fascism is no longer a hypothetical. It is wielding power now and assaulting the very roots of freedom and privacy for millions. And a deeply disturbing propaganda machine is in place to attempt to normalize it all.

[NutmegYankee]

3. +1,000,000,000

[Scuba]

5. Exactly ...

The Isthmus (Madison newspaper) ran an article about the Solidarity Singers and onlookers being arrested in the Capitol, and someone who goes by Bill Dunn asked "Why did this never happen in Wisconsin's 165 years of history until Scott Walker became governor?"


Here's the best response ...

http://www.thedailypage.com/daily/article.php?article=40587

From Diane Ayers on 08/06/13 at 6:44 pm
Re Bill Dunn post, your question: "Why did this never happen in Wisconsin's 165 years of history until Scott Walker became governor?"

Because, Bill, this is the first time in Wisconsin history that the core of state government has been illegitmately seized by corporate-owned political fascists, who do not hesitate to suspend civil liberties and distort or defy the constitutional rights guaranteed to this state's citizens.

Their prime directive is to discredit, divide and destroy all those agencies, civic organizations, labor unions,. . even community groups of individual citizens seeking to communicate their views and concerns.

Their goal? The permanent destruction of democracy in Wisconsin - and eventually throughout the U.S. - replacing it with an institutionalized oligarchy that maintains its control by doing away with public education, worker rights, voting rights, etc, -- creating a powerless underclass that will work to serve and fear to challenge their corporate masters -now and for generations to come.

[kpete]

6. thank you Scuba

I want my DEMOCRACY back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

peace, kp

[warrant46]

18. Ahh The Isthmus

They pull no punches

[woo me with science]

20. Thank you.

[KoKo]

25. Recommend..read...!

[MotherPetrie]

10. +1,000,000,001

[snappyturtle]

16. I hope all can keep in mind the author's word here:

And every "progressive" with a beef against Greenwald who attempts to defend the UK's actions does nothing more than prove Greenwald's point. Governments that detain civil libertarian bloggers and journalists as terrorists deserve every heaping of scorn they get, as do those who defend them.

[Enthusiast]

22. That's what I've been trying to say.

Great post!

"Corporate fascism is no longer a hypothetical. It is wielding power now and assaulting the very roots of freedom and privacy for millions. And a deeply disturbing propaganda machine is in place to attempt to normalize it all."

[Electric Monk]

2. K&R

[Autumn]

4. Recommended. I don't know who David Atkins is but damn

the man is right.

[n2doc]

8. More Sense than some people can take n/t

[MotherPetrie]

9. K&R

[leftstreet]

11. DURec

[WillyT]

12. HUGE K & R !!! - Thank You !!!

[Swagman]

13. and the DUers who criticize Greenwald and who gleefully pounced

upon the claim that his partner was carrying encrypted Snowden supplied files seem to forget it happened in fucking Britain, not a US airport.

They seem oblivious to the fact the USA has now exported it's fascist activities around the world and are encroaching upon the lives of the citizens of every country that was once regarded as a US ally.

It's corporate masters may be US corporate allies but when will the USA stop interfering in my fucking life ?

[Swagman]

14. and the DUers who criticize Greenwald and who gleefully pounced

upon the claim that his partner was carrying encrypted Snowden supplied files seem to forget it happened in fucking Britain, not a US airport.

They seem oblivious to the fact the USA has now exported it's fascist activities around the world and are encroaching upon the lives of the citizens of every country that was once regarded as a US ally.

My countries corporate masters may be US corporate allies but when will the USA stop interfering in my fucking life ?

[DirkGently]

15. Yep. It's heavy-handed AND stupid.

If the respective embarrassed surveillance states had any brains between them, they'd recognize the cat is out of the proverbial bag and stop demonstrating the exact kind of intimidation and attempts to punish truth telling Greenwald et al are talking about.

The "hair on fire" arguments are out the window now. The only question remaining is how far some people are willing to go fighting for their own governments' right to silence them.

[struggle4progress]

17. Is it Atkins' theory that authorities have no right to detain, question, or search international

passengers passing through their airports, if they suspect them of (say) smuggling contraband?

As far as I can tell, the Guardian paid Miranda to transport documents between Greenwald and Poitras

And the UK government may have some concerns about the smuggling of documents possibly related to UK intelligence operations

IIRC the UK has been discussing possibilities for significantly reducing the number of hours persons may be held for Schedule 7 questioning: people who think 9 hours excessive should push for the reduction

[Andy823]

19. Also

The problem I have is Greenwald should have known the risk he was putting his spouse in. I mean anyone who is transporting stolen government documents from country to country has to realize if they get caught there are going to be some problems, and anyone who asks a spouse or family member to do such a thing has to realize the danger involved. Greenwald can't be that stupid that he didn't think this might happen!

[DirkGently]

21. Whether someone should "expect" dirty tactics is not the issue.

And your framing of "transporting stolen government documents" is specious. Even if Miranda was transporting digital information from Snowden, he wasn't carrying stolen merchandise. It's a journalist's source material now. He wasn't stealing the Hope Diamond.

It's also pretty horrible to suggest that the real parties at fault are the victims, because they should have known participating in journalism that might annoy a government could lead to false imprisonment and confiscation under an anti-Terror statute.

That's like saying people should expect to be racially profiled in New York City, and therefore can't be heard to complain about it.

[Enthusiast]

23. Yours is the correct answer.......nt

[Little Star]

24. Yep! Not stolen documents because it's a journalist's source materials now.....

I don't know why some can't understand that difference.

[NealK]

42. Some just look like they don't understand...

and others are not too bright.

[sabrina 1]

26. Do they stop every Journalist and/or their assistants, mothers, girlfriends, partners, husbands

children, who 'smuggle' documents they have received from sources and steal their possessions?? And does it take 9 hours, without access to their families or the lawyers of their choice to find out if someone is a terrorist or not?

If so, I would suggest to Journalists that the avoid the UK when working on a story and the US. It would also be advisable for Presidents of Sovereign nations in South America to avoid allied countries of the US in Europe from now on.

There are other parts of the world that do not abuse their powers like this when it comes to journalists, their family members and/or assistants.

[struggle4progress]

29. "I have many documents about England's espionage system" - G. Greenwald

[sabrina 1]

34. If they have nothing to hide, they have nothing to fear'. Surely they agree with that

since this is what they tell us. I think they must have a whole lot to hide and it must be pretty bad, as Wyden said 'what we know already (which is bad enough) is only the tip of the iceberg'.

So we need to find out why they are getting so careless and so desperate don't you think? What exactly have they been up to that they are so afraid we will find out?

Or do you think the people don't have a right to know what crimes their governments may be committing in secret.

[struggle4progress]

36. Maybe they have assets they don't want exposed, or know things they don't want

potential enemies to know they know: such things sometimes matter in intelligence and counter-intelligence work

[sabrina 1]

58. We have way too many enemies according to what we are told. Maybe we should be

asking why we are always in fear of being blown off the planet. Maybe WE are the problem.

[struggle4progress]

30. "Snowden has enough information to cause harm to the U.S. government in a single minute than

any other person has ever had" -- G. Greenwald

[sabrina 1]

32. Well if that government is doing wrong, that is something the people 'need to know'. And if

isn't then they have nothing to worry about, right? Looks to me they are acting very suspiciously, as if they are terrified of any exposure of what they have been up to.

They can only be harmed if they are doing wrong. Let them make their case, otherwise the people need to know what they are so afraid of.

'If they have nothing to hide, they have nothing to fear'. That is what they tell us.

[struggle4progress]

35. Snowden's idea of government "wrong" seems to include any international espionage,

a doctrine sometimes called "Gentlemen don't read other gentlemen's mail"

Snowden, of course, is entitled to hold whatever views he likes in that regard -- though it's not at all clear to me that he has any absolute right to expose all such activities simply because he's ideologically opposed to them

[sabrina 1]

38. That is for the courts decide. When a Whistle Blower blows the whistle on wrong doing

and already we are seeing plenty of it, the obvious step for the Government to take is to begin an investigation to see whether the allegations are true or not.

Why has that not happened yet, despite the growing list of Whistle Blowers who have come forward to expose wrong-doing??

Everything you say is mere speculation until the Rule of Law is properly applied and the people are provided with the facts. That won't happen so long as the Government continues to cover up whatever it is they are so afraid we will out, UNLESS WE MAKE THEM.

And if they have nothing to hide they should not fear such investigations should they?

[Waiting For Everyman]

27. It can't be put clearer than that.

K&R!

[Thinkingabout]

28. GG is attempting to blackmail the US and UK with his releases, he sent his partner as a mule.

He nor his mule have clean hands.

[sabrina 1]

33. Do you know what a 'mule' is? I know this is the latest epithet being applied to journalists

and their families, but at least people who are going to jump on the bandwagon should know what they are talking about.

[struggle4progress]

37. "... Mr. Miranda was in Berlin to deliver documents related to Mr. Greenwald’s investigation

into government surveillance to Ms. Poitras, Mr. Greenwald said. Ms. Poitras, in turn, gave Mr. Miranda different documents to pass to Mr. Greenwald ..."
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/19/world/europe/britain-detains-partner-of-reporter-tied-to-leaks.html?_r=0

[sabrina 1]

46. He was an assistant to two journalists. Last time I checked the word 'mule' doesn't apply.

I don't know what you find odd about this, maybe you are not acquainted with journalists who are working on big stories like this.

[delrem]

52. What's so lovely about the smearing is that Laura Poitras is just collateral damage.

I can't believe this is DU.
There's a new character assassination every day, and wow do the same people pile on!
They have nothing to offer except character assassination. Nothing.
Quite literally everyone of consequence on the left is now "under the bus"

[sabrina 1]

53. That's what happens when people get desperate, when they are struggling to defend the

indefensible. When they cannot do that they HAVE to resort to nonsense. Try asking any of them to explain what they are saying and see what happens. I do it all the time but never get an answer and the ones I do get, see above, are non-answers. But I want to establish a record for posterity. Other people have them all on ignore.

Yes, to THEM 'everyone of consequence on the left is now 'under the bus'. And that is how they have revealed themselves.

The are still a minority and they are finding it harder and harder each day to continue to claim to be Democrats as they trash everything that makes someone a Dem in the first place.

[JEB]

55. Those carrying propaganda for the corporate fascists are the mules in this instance.

[Marr]

43. They've been applying lots of drug smuggling terms to the argument, I've noticed.

I even saw the word "laundered" bandied about the other day, as in 'he was attempting to launder information'.

It's absurd.

[Thinkingabout]

44. I know, don't think it is on the line of your post, check again for the meaning.

[sabrina 1]

47. I know what it means, and I know it does not apply even remotely to this situation, which is

why I asked if you knew what it meant.

[Thinkingabout]

49. you are very sheltered, what do you think the meaning of a mule.

[sabrina 1]

50. That's the question I asked you. Why not just answer it, maybe you really do not know

what it means and why it is ludicrous to apply such a word to a situation regarding the family member of a Journalist helping that Journalist with his work.

Or are you saying that a Journalis's Source Material is illegal??? I'd love to see someone, anyone, explain to me how that is. I have asked and asked, and can't get the supporters of all of this to reply. Maybe this time I will be lucky.

[Thinkingabout]

56. If you need someone to explain this to you then you need to seek help, it is it not my

Responsibility to educate everyone, use whatever definition you choose.

[delrem]

54. Your canned talking point doesn't cut it.

Where do you guys get the vocabulary of your smears?
You act like a school of fish, the whole school darting back and forth in sync with only one object: to smear the messengers.

[G_j]

31. k&r!!

[ocpagu]

39. Perfect!

"Governments that detain civil libertarian bloggers and journalists as terrorists deserve every heaping of scorn they get, as do those who defend them."

The worst part is that these same governments usually are those cynical enough to preach to other governments about freedoms and liberties...

[bvar22]

40. I will STAND with you.

AND repeat this for emphasis:

[font size=3]
"Governments that detain civil libertarian bloggers and journalists as terrorists deserve every heaping of scorn they get, as do those who defend them."

[/font]



[font color=firebrick size=3][center]"If we don't fight hard enough for the things we stand for,
at some point we have to recognize that we don't really stand for them."
--- Paul Wellstone[/font][/center]
[center][/font]
[font size=1]photo by bvar22
Shortly before Sen Wellstone was killed[/center][/font]

[font size=5 color=firebrick]Solidarity![/font]

[NealK]

41. K&R

A couple of posters in this thread keep proving Greenwald's point.

[felix_numinous]

45. And the fact this needs to be spelled out

continuously, in endless combinations and permutations of language, is equally as disturbing as the events themselves.

I am a tolerant person for well thought out opinions and information, yet when it comes to basic human rights this is where I draw the line. I guess some may call
me a bleeding heart liberal, so be it.

To maintain human and civil rights, one must have a certain amount of empathy, which I have been sad to see missing all too often lately.

In order to label a human being (whether it be insurgent, terrorist, radical) one must be willing to dehumanize a multi- dimensional being into a word, a concept. Yes-- I have been guilty of this myself, and I am taking a look at it. As I am pleading for more empathy in others I am conscious of this in myself.

These are stressful times--but we cannot allow ourselves to allow ANY GROUP of people, due to race, sexuality, or beliefs-- to be singled out as scapegoats! This phenomena, of targeting one person or group at a time, is meant for 2 things:

1) Safety and righteousness for those who do the accusing.

2) Having an easy outlet for your own frustrations.

We cannot allow scapegoating, not now, not ever! This has to end-- because no one is immune. What is done to one is done to us all.

[Utopian Leftist]

48. All around the world . . .

It's time for progressives everywhere to join together. The issues in every individual country will be slightly different, but progressive solutions will often be similar. For example: Hemp does everything petroleum oil does AND is biodegradable. It can be used as fuel without harming the planet. It creates thousands of other products, and it grows four times faster than trees. If the world were seeded with hemp, many of our problems would start to turn around. Potentially it could even free us from dependence on the oil industry, and that could not help but improve environmental conditions. No longer dependent on foreign oil the PTB would find it much more difficult to manufacture support for the perpetuation of the never-ending wars.

WE are the ones with the solutions! Don't forget this. The other side has NOTHING now. Cons are floundering all over the world. Their cruel Austerity is on its way to being seen for the blatant fascism that it is.

If WE would only lay our plans and solutions out for the world to see now, we could end war, conquer hunger and poverty worldwide, rescue the global economy and save the human race by keeping Mother Earth habitable.

WE have the plans and ideas that can actually make these things happen! WE are the ones whose ideas have not yet been tried, because the powers that be know only too well that they would work.

And unlike so many Democrats, WE progressives have the backbone to come together all over the world and spread a united message in support of Greenwald and Snowden!

Don't we?

[DeSwiss]

51. K&R

''...Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.''

The American Declaration of Independence

[Rex]

57. That noise? Some authoritarian heads exploding!

Progressives? Don't make me laugh.