'Sovereign citizen' movement now on FBI's radar

[ellisonz]

The Homeland Security Department has ranked the movement as a major threat. Its members reject the law, and some kill police.
By Brian Bennett, Washington Bureau

February 23, 2012, 4:52 p.m.
Reporting from Washington—
With the FBI pounding on his door, and his wife and two children barely awake, Shawn Rice allegedly strapped on a bulletproof vest, grabbed a semiautomatic pistol and stepped out his back door on Dec. 22.

But dozens of FBI agents and local police had surrounded the ranch house in Seligman, Ariz., about 80 miles west of Flagstaff, and the only nearby cover was knee-high sagebrush. Rice ducked back inside, and warned the FBI to keep away.

After a tense 10-hour standoff, Rice, 49, was arrested. He now sits in a Las Vegas jail awaiting trial on federal money-laundering charges.

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Until recently, federal officials had steered clear of any extensive focus on right-wing extremist groups. In 2009, some members of Congress complained after a Homeland Security Department report warned that such groups might seek to recruit disaffected military veterans returning from Iraq and Afghanistan, as well as others. The report highlighted several groups, including the sovereign citizen movement.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-terror-cop-killers-20120224,0,5474022.story

Why don't we make targeting right-wing extremists for prosecution a priority in this country? I think there is no debate that right-wing extremists are still a dangerous threat to both common citizens and our government. We are little more than a year removed from a right-wing attempt to bomb a Martin Luther King Jr. parade and from the attempted assassination of a member of Congress. Clearly, our justice officials should make this very real threat a priority. If we spent 1/20 of the effort we have spent on fighting terrorist threats from abroad on domestic terrorist threats, we would have a much safer country. This country has quite the history of domestic terrorism and we would be well served not to forget its danger.

[Luminous Animal]

1. I read the article and what crime did Shawn Rice commit to bring the FBI

to his door?

[ellisonz]

2. Yeah that was an oversight in the article...

...kinda speaks to the poor state of journalism.

Authorities issued a warrant for Shawn Rice in March 2010 after he failed to show up for court hearings in his Las Vegas case. Rice holed up in his Seligman, Ariz., home Dec. 22 before giving up to FBI agents without incident.

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Rice and co-defendant Samuel Davis of Council, Idaho, were accused of laundering about $1.3 million for undercover FBI agents from March 2008 to March 2009. Prosecutors say the money came from theft and check forgery.

News Article

[Luminous Animal]

4. Ah. Another FBI plot of committing the crime in order to prosecute the crime.

Not saying that Shawn didn't bite but it would be nice if the FBI would spend less time setting up their own entrapment criminal enterprises and actually, you know, do the hard work of going after criminal enterprises already in existence.

[ellisonz]

5. Entrapment has a very clear legal meaning.

Frankly, I don't give a crap if it reigns in these armed and dangerous right-wing whackos. I would rather have them spending their time doing that than conducting surveillance on mosques for no good reason. This guy was criminal to the core as evidenced by the stand-off he caused.

[Luminous Animal]

7. How was he armed and dangerous? Was he threatening to kill

people?

[ellisonz]

8. Yes he was armed dangerous and threatening.

When the FBI surrounded his house, he put on body armor, brandished a pistol, and warned the FBI to stay at bay.

[Luminous Animal]

9. Prior to that.

[ellisonz]

10. Prior to that he failed to appear.

When you fail to appear, and then confront officers of the law serving a legitimate arrest warrant with a gun, you are clearly making yourself a threat to society and should be locked up. It's pretty simple, when you have a court date show up and don't threaten law enforcement when they come to take you away. Hope they hit him with additional charges.

[Luminous Animal]

11. Failure to appear for a crime that the FBI organized.

Would this guy have been a threat to society if the FBI hadn't induced him to be a threat to society?

[ellisonz]

14. No one induced him to be a threat...

...he became the target of an investigation because of his unlawful behavior and then rather than peacefully make his case in the judicial system, failed to appear, and started an armed stand-off. Pardon me for not having much sympathy for a right-wing scumbag. I understand the point you are trying to make about some of the terrorism cases in terms of the FBI and others hyping these people up. But this guy was already engaged in ongoing criminal activity and got caught in a sting. Sucks for him, but it's really no different than a speed trap - no one made him drive that fast.

[Bonobo]

3. When the FBI starts throwing around terms like "Anti-Government Extremist"...

It is time to start paying LOTS of attention to what is going on.

That kind of rhetoric REEKS of danger to me. It is wide open to abuse.

One thinks of J Edgar Hoover and secret files.

Extreme caution is called for because not all will agree on WHAT constitutes a threat to the govt. and once a person is defined in those terms, they CAN be assassinated by the government or hauled away in secret for secret trials.

[ellisonz]

6. Let's get down to brass tacks.

There very clearly are right-wing anti-government extremists who would do great harm to innocent people. They are plotting, they are dangerous, and they really don't care about our delicate sensibilities. If using some rhetoric that makes you uncomfortable stops a yahoo from bombing a Martin Luther King. Jr Day parade I am all for it because explaining such failures ex-post facto is a very painful thing to have to do - consider the father of the slain police officer in the story

[Bonobo]

12. Yes, unfortunately it may not just be rhetoric aimed at those people

And having studied history, I suspect you don't need a lesson on the abuse of power under the name of putting down "anti-government forces"

On the other hand, if that lesson has been lost on you, I doubt that I can convince you.

[ellisonz]

15. Power is always open to abuse and the balance always isn't there...

...but at the same time denying that the Constitution doesn't clearly require you to pay your taxes, show up to Court, and not brandish a weapon triggering an armed stand-off doesn't help the cause of those trying to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States of America. Our system of laws and jurisprudence was not created in order to be criminally ignored and violently overthrown. The sovereign citizens movement isn't in the same league as say the mainstream civil rights movement or Occupy Wall Street. I still believe that our country is made stronger by its constitutionalism. Nowhere in the Constitution is the violent overthrow of the government sanctioned - sovereignty is entrusted in the people's government, in the social contract - not in the individual.

[Bonobo]

17. No argument there. nt

[countryjake]

13. Agree with everything you've said here, ellisonz.

These people are wackos to the nth degree and it is scary to tangle with any of their ilk. We have them here in my county up in the Pacific NorthWest, one was recently sent to prison...trying to reason with them is worse than arguing with any fundy, laroucher, right-wingnut, or extreme libertarian and they are sneak thieves, ripping off anyone who falls for their garbage "freedom" spiel. We had a state trooper murdered here this week, during a routine traffic stop, and I immediately thought of these guys.

They absolutely hate the three women who lead our state and have made numerous threats against them.


http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-files/ideology/sovereign-citizens-movement

[ellisonz]

16. Their whacko theory of individual sovereignty...

...and naturally "Second Amendment Remedies" is a clear and present danger to the good people of this country. Check out this article I posted about how the new trend in the White Supremacist/right-wing extremist movement in general is to move to the Northwest and try to create the "homeland."

I've gotten into some shouting matches with Larouchies in Portland. I have no tolerance for their message of hate and death.

I saw the story about the Washington State Trooper Tony Radulescu and the picture of the suspect with his shaved head. Given that the guy apparently had served time for domestic violence and methamphetamine production, it's certainly possible he has ties to White Supremacists. What is clear is that he as felon, had no trouble obtaining a handgun, and no hesitation in using it to murder a law enforcement officer.

I am worried about this next year. The message that is circulating through the right-wing air is that this election is almost apocalyptic and it is sure to bring out the whackos. I still remember how January 8, 2010 felt watching footage from that shopping mall in Phoenix. I will not forget.

[countryjake]

19. I worry about them, too. The ones up here are vehemently anti-Semitic...

and they evidently haven't yet gotten the meme that they are supposed to hide their utter hatred for any people of color (due to the national org. attempting to recruit blacks in other areas of the country)...they are the most disgustingly racist bastards I've ever dealt with. Thanks for that article, I hadn't seen it and didn't even know that this area was now their focus. It makes sense tho, with all of the old disgruntled Aryan Nations "armies" we have running around, since they busted them up in Idaho. I do know that the Sovereigns here are armed and once they find out your politics, there's really no telling what they are capable of...big cause for caution, to put it mildly.

Here's the piece on the guy they just sentenced here:

‘Sovereign’ Washington group draws federal fire
Four indicted in ongoing investigation into radical anti-government group; threats against officials

http://www.seattlepi.com/default/article/Sovereign-Washington-group-draws-federal-2230474.php#page-1



(a bit off-topic, we were targeted by a really wacked-out laroucher some time back, after a big fight I had with them in front of a grocery store...they got our number and harassed me endlessly for years, til they finally moved away. Not the type of people that can be reasoned with, either, once you piss them off.)

[ellisonz]

24. It's a marriage made in heaven...

But what really makes them kinda scary compared to your straight White Supremacist is the extent to which they become true believers:

Writing the court, Garrison’s wife also styled her name and pleadings in line with arguments put forward by sovereign citizens around the country. To support their anti-government ideology, adherents to the movement have created a fanciful legal history of the United States and adopt unusual legal language they believe protects their status as “sovereign” citizens.

The law of the sea, they contend, has replaced what they call “common law” – not to be confused with the widely understood concept of common law – that was, in the sovereign citizen’s view, envisioned by the nation’s founders. Under their conspiracy theory, judges form the heart of the scheme to enslave Americans.

“They … believe that judges around the country know all about this hidden government takeover but are denying the sovereigns’ motions and filings out of treasonous loyalty to hidden and malevolent government forces,” the IRS special agent told the court.

“Under common law, or so they believe, the sovereigns would be free men. Under admiralty law, they are slaves, and secret government forces have a vested interest in keeping them that way.”

Your average Neo-Nazi often knows that most of society thinks he's a douchebag, but these guys think they're above it all. You start combining that fatalism into the Militia movement and it fast gets out of hand. How else do you get people conspiring to the launch a ricin attack from a Waffle House? There's an exceptional fantasy life for these people and they organize into cells.

(LaRouchies = cultists)

[NNN0LHI]

20. Timothy McVeigh clones

[madrchsod]

21. the federal government has always targeted extreme right wing groups.

there have been many cases that have been sent to the courts. the problem is that the extreme white groups have had the benefit of the msm obsession with islamic terrorists groups and individuals.

[The Backlash Cometh]

22. This is far more insidious in our communities than people realize.

This concept of sovereignty has extended to local governments and the law enforcement agencies went along with it because they didn't have the brain cap to understand the implications. When a local government claims sovereignty, it means that they are breaking away from State and Federal law. It begins with the little things, and eventually, when they anger someone with access to good OUTSIDE lawyers, it ends up in Federal court. Unfortunately for the rest of us, the information gets shut down with settlements that include confidentiality clauses.

The problem is, that the status quo still survives while the victor, who by now recognizes he's an outsider in a very closed society, leaves with his millions, leaving the rest of us here to serve as a bait ball.

No point in running away, since this battle is being waged on all kinds of fronts. We are all fighting to protect our American constitution, in our own ways.

[hughee99]

23. Ooooh, money laundering. If only he was married to a congressperson,

he could have plead down to tax fraud and gotten off with a 30-day slap on the wrist.