For transgender prisoners, hormones seen as matter of life and death

[cali]

Self-castration, suicide and waves of desperation are byproducts of the denial of sex hormones to inmates yearning to switch genders, advocates say.

But outside the walls, debate has been stirred on whether the prison system is the right place to help chemically escort a man to womanhood, or vice versa, and critics question if any taxpayer money should pay for the hormones used to help inmates undergo sex changes.

Thursday's revelation that convicted secret leaker Bradley Manning wants to live as a woman and begin hormone therapy ignited talk about what happens when prison doctors refuse hormones to inmates with gender identity disorder (GID): depression, death wishes, purposely amputated genitalia and, for those already en route to a new gender, the return or disappearance of certain male or female traits — from body hair to muscles to breasts.

The Army does not provide hormone therapy to such prisoners. At the very least, this significantly delays Manning's plan to physically morph into "Chelsea" -- as he's been sentenced to 35 years in Fort Leavenworth prison.

<snip>

http://www.nbcnews.com/health/transgender-prisoners-hormones-seen-matter-life-death-6C10981031

[darkangel218]

1. Chelsey Manning

Can we start a fund raiser at least for her?? I know we can do it!! Perheps we could expand it to others who are imprisoned and need this kind of financial help!!!

Lets do it!!

[cali]

2. It's a lovely thought even though

she wouldn't be able to access funds for hormone treatment.

[darkangel218]

3. Why wouldnt she be able to access it??

She is defenetly a female inside. No one could expect anyone to live 35 fucking years in the wrong body!

Lets try to do it! Maybe we could have legal help involved and make this happen!! Why couldbt we???

[cali]

5. because the military has made it quite clear that they won't allow

hormone therapy for her. Perhaps she could access it for legal purposes. I honestly don't know.

[MillennialDem]

95. I don't know about that. They said they won't provide it, to me that says pay for it

I don't see why she could not be given hormones if she or others willingly paid for them.

[idwiyo]

10. I am more than happy to contribute to such a fund. Maybe someone should contact Chelsea's lawyer?

[darkangel218]

11. I would be more than happy to conttibute as well.

How do we get hold of her attorney?

I am serious about this, I will dedicate all I can for this to happen.

She is not alone.



Lets make it happen.

[idwiyo]

20. I found Chelsea's lawyer webpage, see below.

http://www.armycourtmartialdefense.com/

I would be happy to sign a letter asking Mr Coombs to start such fund or let us know how to contribute. I'd appreciate if someone with better skills than mine writes a letter, and also asks that fund should accept donations from abroad.

[cali]

6. I suppose to certain kinds of people, that's true; your ilk does

believe in making prison hell.

that's sick and disgusting in my book.

[uppityperson]

7. No medical care for prisoners? Seriously?

Shame on you.

[DontTreadOnMe]

14. No medical care? You are completely over the top.

I never said that, and you are driving away people who support LGBT rights.

You have gone over the edge. You are no longer posting rationally.

[uppityperson]

56. And you resort to personal attacks, gotcha.

[Jamastiene]

61. That is a ridiculous claim.

uppityperson is not driving away people who support LGBT rights. By comparing her medical needs to a 50" TV, you are displaying an attitude that is definitely AGAINST LGBT rights. . It sounds like something some right wing asshole would say.

[NealK]

96. "You are no longer posting rationally"

Lol, you're projecting. The vast majority of your posts in that thread are totally irrational. And some of them are truly puke inducing.

[demmiblue]

8. What the fuck is wrong with you?!

[idwiyo]

9. So, according to you prisoners should have no access to medical care?

[DontTreadOnMe]

13. Medical Care... in military jail is DEFINED by the Militarty Court.

If you don't like the way it is defined, don't come yelling at me!
Military jail time does not support hormone therapy.

It also doesn't support dental implants (you get dentures).



Don't like then law, go change it.

Stop being a whiner on an internet blog!

[idwiyo]

15. You compared medical care with getting 50' TV and a pair of slippers. Care to explain that?

Hormonal treatment and gender reassignment surgery ARE basic necessary medical treatments.

[idwiyo]

27. Hormonal treatment IS a medical care. You on the other hand think it's equivalent of 50' TV.

Or a new hair dryer. Or a pair of slippers.

Care to explain your comment?

[darkangel218]

29. He/she cant. Theyre too busy throwing personal attacks at the moment. nt

[idwiyo]

44. They know their comment is pure transphobic bigotry. They have no other way to defend that but

with personal attacks.

[DontTreadOnMe]

31. Hormonal Treatment is NOT medical treatment, ask the ARMY!

Sorry, you lose. You don't get to dictate what medical treatment is and what is not.

DO NOT PASS GO, GO DIRECTLY TO JAIL... oh wait. Manning goes to jail.

[idwiyo]

43. I am asking you to explain YOUR comment comparing medical treatment for genetic condition with

getting 50' TV, or a new hair dryer, or a pair of sleepers.



You might want to educate yourself a bit while you are trying to explain your comment (bolding is mine):

World Health Organisation
Genomic resource centre
Gender and Genetics

http://www.who.int/genomics/gender/en/index1.html

Humans are born with 46 chromosomes in 23 pairs. The X and Y chromosomes determine a person’s sex. Most women are 46XX and most men are 46XY. Research suggests, however, that in a few births per thousand some individuals will be born with a single sex chromosome (45X or 45Y) (sex monosomies) and some with three or more sex chromosomes (47XXX, 47XYY or 47XXY, etc.) (sex polysomies). In addition, some males are born 46XX due to the translocation of a tiny section of the sex determining region of the Y chromosome. Similarly some females are also born 46XY due to mutations in the Y chromosome. Clearly, there are not only females who are XX and males who are XY, but rather, there is a range of chromosome complements, hormone balances, and phenotypic variations that determine sex.

The biological differences between men and women result from two processes: sex determination and differentiation.(3) The biological process of sex determination controls whether the male or female sexual differentiation pathway will be followed. The process of biological sex differentiation (development of a given sex) involves many genetically regulated, hierarchical developmental steps. More than 95% of the Y chromosome is male-specific (4) and a single copy of the Y chromosome is able to induce testicular differentiation of the embryonic gonad. The Y chromosome acts as a dominant inducer of male phenotype and individuals having four X chromosomes and one Y chromosome (49XXXXY) are phenotypically male. (5) When a Y chromosome is present, early embryonic testes develop around the 10th week of pregnancy. In the absence of both a Y chromosome and the influence of a testis-determining factor (TDF), ovaries develop.

Gender, typically described in terms of masculinity and femininity, is a social construction that varies across different cultures and over time. (6) There are a number of cultures, for example, in which greater gender diversity exists and sex and gender are not always neatly divided along binary lines such as male and female or homosexual and heterosexual.

[DontTreadOnMe]

46. It doesn't MATTER what I think... but I will go on record that she should get hormonal treatment.

BUT SHE WON'T, because that is the law!

Do you see the difference?

And the LAW STATES you can't have a 50" TV or fuzzy rabbit slippers too.

What are you a lawaphobic?

[darkangel218]

48. Disgusting

Stand up for transphoby, hypocrisy, but not for what is right.



Karma may have mercy on you.

[DontTreadOnMe]

51. ahhh... you mean you just realized that life isn't fair.. poor child.

There are so many things that needs to be fixed in this world.. the plight of Manning is NOT on my list.

[darkangel218]

54. Poor child?? lmao!!!! take your condescending attacks elsewhere, youre pathetic.

[idwiyo]

63. What about Equal Rights for All? Is THAT somewhere on your list? Because if it is, than your OP

is very odd indeed.

It might have been worded as 'Army thinks that hormonal treatment is no different than 50' TV, according to current law'. It wasn't. It was worded as your personal opinion. Reinforced by further statement that prison suppose to be 'hell'.

[NuclearDem]

81. Yes it fucking is.

Gender dysphoria is just as much a medical condition as diabetes or anxiety. Just because you don't seem to know shit about medical conditions doesn't make it less so.

[Little Star]

85. +1

[NealK]

94. +2

[cali]

16. why don't you just stop period. that's a much better idea, dearie.

[DontTreadOnMe]

17. Dearie? You come off as someone who doesn't live in reality

Go ahead, blame ME because Manning was convicted. Do you feel better now?

I am way left of Obama... but you consistently are so far left I need binoculars to see where you stand.
I am REALLY GLAD that a majority of Americans don't have your point of view.... DEARIE!

[cali]

21. uh, I'm not blaming you for Manning being convicted. I'm blaming you for your

disgusting comments in this thread.

simple as that.

as far as being left or right, I don't buy my ideas or philosophies wholesale.

One thing I believe is that even the most heinous criminals, incarcerated for life, should be treated with a basic degree of human dignity- as much or more so for ourselves and our society as for anything else.

I may be far left or whatever, but I'll gladly take that over what you are: An INhumanist. Ugh.

[DontTreadOnMe]

23. Let me put it into perspective for you...

I have to cut my toe nails today.... and in 3 billion years the Milky Way is going to crash into Andromeda, and our galaxy will cease to exist. In between those two items there will be millions of things to discover, learn and experience.

But nothing you post is on my list of "need to know"

You constantly berate DUer who don't agree with you. I wonder if you actually have any friends -- in the "real world". You know.. actual people who you have conversations with.

[darkangel218]

26. She has PLENTY of friends!!!

Try again, dear! How pathetic that you have to resort to personal attacks!!

Laughable!!

[DontTreadOnMe]

32. How dare you call me "dear" !!!11!!!11!!

OMG!

[darkangel218]

33. Lmao!!! quit diverting the fact that you questioned another poster if she had any friends.

Dear!

You lose.

[DontTreadOnMe]

34. You must be her only friend...

Both of you should go make plans to visit Manning during visitation hours...

[darkangel218]

36. Ohhoohoh!!! I am her only friend!!!

Any DUer who even remotely reads the forums knows cali has been always telling the truth. Try again, Dear!!

[Kolesar]

67. for Darkangel218, cali: whichever one of you alerted on DontTreadOnMe:

Juror #3 nailed you:

LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
LEAVE IT ALONE and said: The alert is against ToS.. not calling other members 'trolls'. That being said, exposing cliques is not hurtful, rude, insensitive or over-the-top. It may be disruptive to the puppy-packs that rush to defend members of their clique. It would be better if they examine the posts and reply to the substance, rather than a perceived attack on their circle.

TLDR; Ignore the question or answer it.

LEAVE IT ALONE and said: I loved DTOM's "Milky Way" post: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post
LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
HIDE IT and said: I don't see toll. I see disagreement veered too far into the persona realm

[darkangel218]

93. I didnt alert on that post.

And Kolesar.. there are other people who read this, besides myself and cali.

[cali]

35. could you possibly have posted a sillier response?

comparisons are indeed often odious and even more often they're dim.

and yes, I have actual conversations with my real world friends- largely, I confess, we agree on these kinds of issues.

[DontTreadOnMe]

37. I usually find there is a correlation to the amount of posts to real world experience

And you seem to have more posts here on DU than anyone - usually just blue link stuff, so I just wonder if you have any actual time in your life to actually meet "real" people.

Maybe you need to step away from the keyboard and go outside.

[cali]

50. yes. I'm incapacitated by a condition called CRPS

as a result of smashing my leg to pieces almost 2 years ago. I'm in constant pain, often quite severe. That's just the nature of it. Yes, my social life has suffered. I'm supposed to go to a party on Sunday, but it's either extra opiates or don't go.

Complex Regional Pain Syndrome (CRPS), formerly Reflex Sympathetic Dystrophy (RSD) or Causalgia, Reflex Neurovascular Dystrophy (RND) also known as Amplified Musculoskeletal Pain Syndrome (AMPS) is a chronic systemic disease characterized by severe pain, swelling, and changes in the skin. CRPS is expected to worsen over time.[1] It often initially affects an arm or a leg and often spreads throughout the body

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complex_Regional_Pain_Syndrome

Oh, and quite often I sit outside with my laptop.

Now you know.

[idwiyo]

66. That poster did not deserve an explanation from you. Hugs. Am so sorry about your medical condition.

[cali]

72. thanks so much.

[darkangel218]

12. What crime did she do, tell the truth???

Are you mad she told of on Bush and his ilk???

[DontTreadOnMe]

19. Do you need the actual list of charges... oh you won't read them anyway...

"He betrayed the United States, and for that betrayal, he deserves to spend the majority of his remaining life in confinement," Capt. Joe Morrow had said during the sentencing hearing.

So many here on DU supporting criminals.. very odd.

[cali]

22. bwahahahaha. lame. He was the prosecutor, genius.

There were exactly NO fucking findings that he was a traitor- and the judge meted out a sentence much closer to what the defense was asking than what the prosecution asked for. duh. try again.

[DontTreadOnMe]

25. Convicted on 19 of 21 charges, including 6 counts of espionage

What reality are you living in? Do you just ignore the facts?

[DontTreadOnMe]

30. FWIW.. "bwahahahaha"... yeah, ok

Maybe that was cool about 50,000 posts ago... but we are over that phrase now.

[darkangel218]

24. Read for yourself what he exposed.

Here are some of the documents and revelations Manning leaked to the world from the small, sensitive, compartmented information facility in Iraq where he worked as an intelligence analyst from 2009 to 2010.

1. The 'Collateral Murder' Apache helicopter video


Manning released this graphic video of a U.S. Apache helicopter attack on a group of people gathered in Baghdad. Two were employees of the Reuters news agency. A member of the helicopter crew refers to the "dead bastards" he killed, and the crew lights up a passing van that stopped to help victims of the first round of gunfire.

Reuters unsuccessfully requested a copy of the video under the Freedom of Information Act, but only Manning revealed it to the world. An Army investigation into the attack, released only after Manning's leak was published, concluded that the helicopter crew had followed the rules of engagement.


......


http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/3788126

[DontTreadOnMe]

28. IF that was the only thing he released, he wouldn't be in jail!

You can't pick and choose which crimes he was convicted are morally justified.

What is going on here on DU... people are just making shit up and ignoring facts.

Manning's leaks -- 391,832 battlefield reports from Iraq, 75,000 reports from Afghanistan, and 251,287 State Department Cables

WTF!

[darkangel218]

40. You obviously didnt read the article i linked to.

Lololol how convenient!!

[DontTreadOnMe]

47. Did she get convicted or not? What reality are you in?

Is there some imaginary jail that Manning might be going to?

[darkangel218]

52. Unfortunately, it is a real jail.

She doesnt belong in there. The war criminals should be there, not Chelsea.

[DontTreadOnMe]

57. Welcome to the real world

The courts have decided.. that they don't care that you think she doesn't belong there.

But you can dedicate the rest of your like to get her released. That is, if it is that important to you.

Not that important for me.

[darkangel218]

58. Not important to you because you apparently dont care for truth or justice.

[Kolesar]

71. The presumption is: "if you support Manning's verdict, then you support the war crimes in Iraq"

Is that what you are insinuating?

[morningfog]

74. That is just wrong. Absolutely false.

She would still be in jail, even if she had carefully screened and released only the illegal acts. Which by the way, would still number in the hundreds.

[Lee-Lee]

38. Remember, her discharge isn't effective until she is released

The militry doesn't fund, no allow, gender reassignment surgery for servicembers who are not inmates. Expecting them to for one who is is an inmate is, well, pretty much a fools folly.

They won't allow the system to get bent to where you won't qualify for something if you follow the rules but will if you break the rules.

[michigandem58]

39. The timing is just too convenient

Chelsea feels the need to do this right after being handed a 35 year prison term?

[idwiyo]

53. Equal Rights for All is NOT LGBTQ fight? Do you even know what T in LGBTQ stands for?

How did you manage to miss that Chelsea knew she is transgender female long before the trial?

FYI:

World Health Organisation
Genomic resource centre
Gender and Genetics

http://www.who.int/genomics/gender/en/index1.html

Humans are born with 46 chromosomes in 23 pairs. The X and Y chromosomes determine a person’s sex. Most women are 46XX and most men are 46XY. Research suggests, however, that in a few births per thousand some individuals will be born with a single sex chromosome (45X or 45Y) (sex monosomies) and some with three or more sex chromosomes (47XXX, 47XYY or 47XXY, etc.) (sex polysomies). In addition, some males are born 46XX due to the translocation of a tiny section of the sex determining region of the Y chromosome. Similarly some females are also born 46XY due to mutations in the Y chromosome. Clearly, there are not only females who are XX and males who are XY, but rather, there is a range of chromosome complements, hormone balances, and phenotypic variations that determine sex.

The biological differences between men and women result from two processes: sex determination and differentiation.(3) The biological process of sex determination controls whether the male or female sexual differentiation pathway will be followed. The process of biological sex differentiation (development of a given sex) involves many genetically regulated, hierarchical developmental steps. More than 95% of the Y chromosome is male-specific (4) and a single copy of the Y chromosome is able to induce testicular differentiation of the embryonic gonad. The Y chromosome acts as a dominant inducer of male phenotype and individuals having four X chromosomes and one Y chromosome (49XXXXY) are phenotypically male. (5) When a Y chromosome is present, early embryonic testes develop around the 10th week of pregnancy. In the absence of both a Y chromosome and the influence of a testis-determining factor (TDF), ovaries develop.

Gender, typically described in terms of masculinity and femininity, is a social construction that varies across different cultures and over time. (6) There are a number of cultures, for example, in which greater gender diversity exists and sex and gender are not always neatly divided along binary lines such as male and female or homosexual and heterosexual.

Much more at the link.

[maddezmom]

59. Why wouldn't it be something the LGBT community be interested in???

[darkangel218]

42. do what???

She has been transgendered before the trial!! Did you miss the evidence her attorneys presented to the court?????

[Warren Stupidity]

68. Being a right wing "democrat" on a progressive message board is a very hard job

And so it is difficult to keep up with current events, plus the usual transphobic bullshit, so cut our new friend some slack.

[Jamastiene]

65. You have GOT to be shitting me.

You honestly think that? Why? Because transgender people have such a wonderful time in prison...NOT!

[morningfog]

75. How the fuck is this in any convenient?

Your transphobia is showing.

[undergroundpanther]

45. I know

If I still had a female body,I'd be dead.I have had top surgery, had the female organs removed(and they had caused actual DAMAGE to my abdomen with crazy endrometriosis),and I take testosterone patches.
Each step has helped me"live" in my body.

Before transition my PMS was so bad I ended up in psych wards from freaking out or trying to die.

My body was literally at war with itself, it was not"all in my head".I was exposed to testosterone as a fetus before my mom realized she was pregnant. my sister had stopped breastfeeding and she was trying to dry up breast milk,and she had female trouble that led to emergency hysterectomy surgery,and so has my sister,they are not transgender.

Being transgender IS now determined a MEDICAL issue.
And it is.

If I take any female hormones again I would start growing screwed up uterine tissue in my abdomen.And my moods would make everything I already deal with worse. Non-trans people have difficulty imagining the torture being the wrong gender IS.Religious people who are trans-phobic are scared of their god to the point they want to control what OTHERS even those who are non-believers or different religions do.I am a mal-theist.I don't believe any holy book written thousands of years ago has any business telling others how to live,NOW.And these books are filled with vileness ,and religious people pretend that vileness does not effect them..

Chelsea I hope you do not die before you exist.And don't let the military religious and control freak bigoted ignorant assholes,macheesemo kill you..

[DontTreadOnMe]

49. Where you ever convicted and sent to jail?

If not.. then why are you posting a personal story that has nothing to do with prisoner rights.

[undergroundpanther]

55. she's a TRANSGENDER prisoner

with a medical issue some people like the stupid military shitheads who hold her prisoner refuse to help her with.Even though she's a prisoner now, she has a RIGHT to medical treatment,even if the military ,religious control freaks and transphobics believe does not exist.

I suffered many years trying to get help and I can tell you she needs help.Being caged up and untreated will only torture her more.

[uppityperson]

60. Medical rights for prisoners is what that post is about, but once again you missed it and go for

personal attack.

[nomorenomore08]

97. Why are you being so belligerent? What's your personal stake in all this?

[idwiyo]

64. Thank you for sharing your story. Please, ignore the bigots. I stand with you and so are countless

other people.

Hugs

[Recursion]

62. This can't be repeated enough (nt)

[backscatter712]

69. 68 posts in this thread, and I only see 11 of them.

I see that the enemies of progressive values have been busy.

I love Ignore.

(to be fair, as Ignore also ignores replies to the douchebags, half of the disappeared posts are likely people telling the bigots off.)

[Neoma]

78. Send me a list?

[NuclearDem]

82. Well, a big chunk of it has been one person

And the multiple sub threads of that person's complete lack of empathy and understanding.

[backscatter712]

87. Gotta love how one asshole is allowed to make an entire thread go diagonal. n/t

[Niceguy1]

70. from what I have seen

it is rare for people that are on hormonal therapy to be allowed to continue when they are incarcerated. And since he wants to start the treament after he has been incarcerated it is unlikely he will get it until he until released...even if he was in a civilian prison...which he will eventually be if he serves enough time as most long term military prisoners are transferred to civilian federal facilities.

[cali]

73. it's common treatment in civilian prisons

in any case, that doesn't mean there shouldn't be advocacy for change.

[Niceguy1]

77. only if you were on it

Prior to incarceration. Allowing peolle to start hormone therapy after incarceration might backfire..I don't think it is a good idea. I am supportive but am not on board with the government providing it for free.

[backscatter712]

83. If transgender people are getting harassed in prison.

1. Chances are good they're gonna be harassed and/or raped whether they're on hormones or not.

2. It's the prison's duty to protect vulnerable prisoners from harassment and assaults. There are enough transgender prisoners in America's prison systems to justify putting stiff measures in place to prevent rapes & such.

[Niceguy1]

84. ti agree

And that is what the classification process is for. That has nothing to do with hormones or surgery

[backscatter712]

86. That's the theory.

But the Percy Wetmore types that always seem to end up as prison guards delight in screening vulnerable prisoners as "violent" and violent prisoners as "vulnerable." They love putting the transgender prisoners in cells with known "Booty Bandits."

Prison rape and shankings are part of the fun for them.

[Niceguy1]

89. that is

The exception not the rule amd manning is a high profile prisoner...he should have few problems once he gets to his assigned facility

[freeplessinseattle]

91. sounds like you are of two minds about this, niceness?

"it is rare for people that are on hormonal therapy to be allowed to continue when they are incarcerated."

At least it seems you are open to digesting new information, and concepts. Better than many here, sadly enough.

[backscatter712]

79. Prisons in the US routinely deny basic medical care to prisoners.

One of their crimes against humanity...

[backscatter712]

76. It's clearly a medical issue. Prisoners have the right to decent medical care.

I see the bigot demographic here at DU is advocating for depriving prisoners of medical care.

Real fucking progressive. Why does Skinner allow them here?

[Neoma]

80. Probably sorting out.

The people who are simply clueless and the trolls.

[Little Star]

88. Your correct and there certainly plenty of both here on DU! I just wish they'd sort faster.

[Neoma]

90. I think it takes a bit of time.

On top of that, they have children to raise. Pleasing everyone is impossible, I know that for sure. Though that's the kind of thing you have to do if you're in the front lines. After awhile it completely depletes your energy. Thankfully they have the, "how many posts of theirs was hidden?" Tool for them to use.

Remember how long it took for iverglas to be PPR'd? That'll happen this time around too.

[Little Star]

92. I hope you are right