Chelsea Manning is teaching me a lot about my "compatriots" today

[Scootaloo]

See, until fairly recently, I had thought that those who were brooding and angry at Manning were angry and offended by the actions she took, the leaking of information and the apparent embarrassment of the US armed forces. I did not agree with their opinion, but I thought that's all that it was.

But now that she has come out about her gender dysphoria, I see that for many people, this anger and bitterness has apparently morphed into hate and outright rage, even here on DU. For many this has become something to attack, an avenue to slander and assault not just Manning but by extension others like her.

I for one would like to extend a hand to the trans persons of DU, and their friends and families to let you know that even amid the hate and rage directed at you, you have far more of us standing with you than against you.

[Mnemosyne]

1. Hear, hear! nt

[idwiyo]

2. K&R

[backscatter712]

3. K&R! Skinner needs to upgrade his banhammer to a ban-jackhammer.

Every single one of these transphobic bigoted fucks should learn they have no place on DU.

[nomorenomore08]

154. At least one long-time member has been PPR'd. Let's hope there's a few more coming. n/t

[LuvNewcastle]

4. I think we're all learning a little more at a time about

these people who have been so virulently opposed to Pvt. Manning. Another chunk of their facade has fallen away.

[Theyletmeeatcake2]

5. K & R!!!

Lot of hate out there!!!! They can go and get stuffed!!!

[vlyons]

40. It's projection

The haters project onto someone or something else, a demon that arises in their own minds. It's a very convenient way to never look at one's own mind. How happy can someone be, who is constantly obsessed with hating? Don't hate them. Just see them for what they are: darkly deluded, filled with hatred, and deeply unhappy.

[Violet_Crumble]

6. Well said n/t

[LiberalEsto]

7. I haven't been following this, but I am sickened to hear

about anti-gay and anti-trans hatred on DU.

Have we really fallen this low?

Whether or not people support Manning's actions that led to his conviction, it should not matter if he is trans, gay, white, black, green or purple. He is a fellow human being and that is all.

I am hetero, but I think homophobia and trans-phobia have absolutely NO place on DU. Neither does racism or sexism.

If we want to call ourselves progressive, that means we have to work to open our minds, instead of letting them click shut, knee-jerk fashion, about a human being's gender, color, etc.

[Half-Century Man]

33. I think they have a place here...

...the homophobia, trans-phobia, racism and sexism. Because we have to deal with them even here, in a place that could be described as a common room in all our homes, we never take them for granted. Be allowed to think the war is over, because we do not encounter them in our normal life.
My exposure to racism in my youth was fairly severe, and the levels I saw displayed publicly had over the years dissipated. I made the error of thinking that racism had faded away. It has faded, but not nearly as far as I had thought. My bad, I was distracted, shiny things happened.


Mr. Martin's untimely death and the aftermath changed my mind

[kelliekat44]

8. I didn't agree with what Manning did before I learned anything about his gender identity issues.

And it is just as wrong for Manning supporters to do what they accuse his detractors of doing. No matter your sexual identity, everyone should be entitled to their own opinions, thinking, and feelings without being attacked here on DU. I would rather just "trash" a thread than be hurtful to some else.

[boston bean]

9. I'm going to respond, not to kindly, to transphobia, whether one thinks it's hurtful or not.

Do you think people ought not point this bigotry out?

[morningfog]

16. Gender identity.

[Heidi]

19. No, DUers do NOT have a right to express transphobia in this community. If they do,

they take their chances.

[vlyons]

48. Actually, they do have a right

It's called free speech. Having said that, I ask that you consider the possibility of seeing such comments as opportunities to teach about hatred, prejudice, and tolerance. There will be plenty of DUers, who will chime in with their own perspectives on dealing with sexphobia.

What's also true is that you have the right, according to the rules of this forum, to petition to get a hateful, abusive thread deleted. Best regards

[boston bean]

50. It's not one's job to educate those who refuse to see. Why is this responsibility

put on the one being offended.

I'm all for educating, but most times, all you get back is denials. Aint worth my time, and it just shouldn't be allowed on this web site.

Making it the responsibility of the one being discriminated against, is just foul in mind.

[vlyons]

72. As a Buddhist, I consider that everyone out there, yes even you,

are my responsibility to liberate from suffering. It's called compassion. Seeing everyone with equanimity. The people we dislike the most, the ones who disgust us with their ignorance. those are the best opportunities for the practice of compassion. Hatred is like eating poison and expecting someone else to die. Best regards <3

[boston bean]

74. I see the people who are the brunt of this bigotry needing compassion, not those that inflict it.

To each his own.

[Tunkamerica]

147. that's a pretty limited viewpoint.

Just project that idea onto the world at large. Prisoners don't deserve any compassion, only the victims of their crimes. People who seek abortions don't need any compassion, only the fetuses they aborted. Soldiers don't need any compassion, only the people they killed.

It's either hypocrisy or a profound lack of empathy.

[treestar]

77. who will do it then?

this attitude tells me the victimhood is preferred.

And people can't take DU, what about the average, middle or right wingers out there? It's just letting them win because it's more comfortable to be a victim.

Do keep educating and don't give up because it does not work immediately.

[boston bean]

79. Oh yeah, You go and do some edumacating these bigots, see how far you get.

sometimes can you get through...yes.. And what you see here in this thread is doing exactly that.

Calling the behaviour and words for the bigoted tripe they are.

You have a problem with the way one chooses to educate bigots who don't want to see or change?

Many are lost causes and why, on DU, should anyone have to read that bigoted tripe, and then blame the victims for not educating correctly, or losing their cool with bigots who don't fucking give a damn.

You go along your merry way and I will proceed along mine.

[treestar]

81. Aren't you just making a way to feel superior?

Over "these bigots?" Why is that better than trying to explain things to them?

If we just called men "sexists" because we didn't have the vote or equal rights to equal pay, and reveled in being superior because we understood women were equal and they did not, we wouldn't have the vote yet.

Some people kept educating and it worked.

[boston bean]

82. Yeah, take your victim blaming bullshit elsewhere please.

I've done plenty of educating. Just ask msanthrope how much she likes my educating. She gets pretty insulted. How dare I!?

I've done it. I will continue to do it. And if one refuses to see, well then they are bigoted. And I don't have much time for them. So, go off and spout your victim blaming elsewhere, please.

Victims, and those groups define what is and is not bigoted,based on their experiences, not you. And they don't have to keep on trying to educate bigots, no matter how many times you say they have to. Sooner or later a bigots, just a bigot, and a lost cause and I've met plenty of them.

[QC]

109. "You have plenty of rights."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022947372#post283

Consider the source....

[neverforget]

141. Wow! I missed that but it doesn't surprise me considering the source.

[backscatter712]

56. No, they don't.

DU is a private web site, and its owners get to set the rules.

And the rules here, specified clearly in the terms of service say "No bigoted hate speech", specifically mentioning sexual orientation and gender identity.

Those who can't follow that rule can get the fuck off of DU and go somewhere where their hate will be more well received...

[vlyons]

73. You are correct

those are the rules. But I think that you missed my larger point.

[East Coast Pirate]

131. He didn't miss anything.

[Ms. Toad]

126. Free speech does not apply in a private forum. n/t

[awoke_in_2003]

143. Free speech doesn't cover...

privately owned forums that have rules, which you agreed to when you joined.

[kestrel91316]

132. Nope. But they can be as misogynistic as they like.

[Heidi]

144. Not if I'm on the jury. (nt)

[cactusfractal]

10. I don't even know why that's a thing

They may as well slam her for being slight, or for her complexion. I thought we were supposed to be the people who don't do that.

[joshcryer]

11. Her gender identity was known since 2010.

It's nice that people are catching up.

[Morning Dew]

119. +1

[barbtries]

146. i had no idea.

has it been previously disclosed on DU? my main source for news.
it'll be a great day when this is not news.

[KharmaTrain]

12. Two Totally Different Issues...

...I didn't agree with the manner Pvt. Manning dumped the data without going through proper channels.

That said, I feel Pvt. Manning's sexuality is a totally different matter and one that has been unfairly attacked...a total lack of compassion by people who I thought had far better sense. Thanks to DU and the GLBT members here, I've had a door opened to a world that was forced closed by "society" for too long and grateful for the insights those members have shared with me. I, too stand with all here, not only trans-gendered, who feel offended by the cruel bashing and abuse Pvt. Manning has been given here...

[davidpdx]

46. I agree with you

They are two different issues and I think DU collectively acts like it is one. I don't dislike Manning, I dislike what she did. Big difference..

[caseymoz]

13. K&R

[brooklynite]

14. Unrec

For not providing any supporting examples for your allegation, particularly the "even here on DU" part.

[onehandle]

18. Seriously. Since yesterday, so many of these grandstanding call out threads...

...and no examples.

[zeemike]

25. It is all about making this about Manning.

And not about the information he released...same as ever.
And you can do that from ether end and from both sides.

And a witch hunt is always a good thing to disrupt things with.

[Bluenorthwest]

27. Wow, you really come off as down market in these threads, very crude and crass thinking

that really does not help you sell the image you promote here of you as well off and influential man of the world. Seriously. This is like a post that says 'I'm white and I say there is no more racism in America'. So devoid of reality it makes you seem uneducated and provincial.

[brooklynite]

44. I said one thing only...that no example was given of the alleged transphobia

Please explain how that comment was crude or innacurate.

Personally, I have no issue at all with Manning's gender identity. But it neither explains nor mitigates the crimes in question.

[boston bean]

80. Then read the thread by michigandem some number or another

where the entire post is about his identity, and how Chelsea is using it.

[boston bean]

32. so sad to see this here. if you can't see it yourself, you haven't looked. nt

[lunasun]

137. wasnt even looking.... but got ro see it anyway all over the site - Pissed &

[joeybee12]

95. Then apparently you have been ignoring the entire dust-up...

And I find that hard to believe.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

96. Here is one example from a jury reslt this morning:

Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: As long as Bradley Manning has the same male equipment he was born with, no doubt he will be be referred to as "he" by just about everyone, and it doesn't matter if he calls himself Chelsea, Doris, or Sheena: Queen of the Jungle.

Yes, I alerted on it. The alerted post was hidden.

[Lee-Lee]

15. And some people are being way over sensitive

I had a post hidden just for saying that the defense timed her announcement in a way to gain the most sympathy and pressure from the LGBT community and its allies, so they could try to use that angle to get clemency when they couldn't win in court and also to keep her case in the public eye.

Doesn't mean I am transphobic or whatever else you want to label me. It just means I know how lawyers and their spin machines work and can see things for what they are and spot when people, even on our side, are trying to use emotions to manipulate us.

[Bluenorthwest]

28. You should link to that hidden post, your characterization of it matters not.

It sounds like a righteous hide to me, and the fact that you do not share it but rather tell us all about it suggests that the jury was correct.

[RandiFan1290]

29. They get to double down

and repeat their bigoted opinion in another thread and it gets to stay. I clicked TOS so we will see if the admins have any desire to clean this garbage up.

YOUR COMMENTS:

repeating what got their post hidden in another thread.
"her announcement in a way to gain the most sympathy and pressure from the LGBT community" hateful & bigoted.

JURY RESULTS

A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Fri Aug 23, 2013, 05:58 AM, and voted 2-4 to LEAVE IT ALONE.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: I can't speak for the other post, but it might have been expressed in an offensive way. This one isn't, and the opinion itself doesn't strike me as inherently hateful or bigoted, though I'm sympathetic to the alerter. p.s: thank you for including the whole post. That's helpful.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT and said: Give up your bigotry Lee Lee.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given

[Lee-Lee]

38. Sorry, but nothing I said was bigoted

I didn't condemn her for being trans.

I simply pointed that it was obvious to me that she and the defense team timed and made the announcement in a strategic way to gain the most sympathy and support, and the least harm to the case.

We're I in her shoes, I would probably do the same. Use everything you have to the maximum effect you can.

But that isn't bigoted. Just reality.

[AverageJoe90]

133. Having read your statement in context, I concur.

I'm not happy to hear about the actual transphobia running around, but I can tell that you meant no harm when saying that; sometimes, defense lawyers DO bring things like that up. I know I probably would, if I were one.

[bunnies]

71. Here.

She wont do it but I will.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3518533

[maddezmom]

47. No that isn't really what you said

But this post isn't much better, IMO.

[Lee-Lee]

49. So when a person is trans

Now any discussion of what they do that isn't 100% unquestioning support is bigoted?

Sorry, just pointing out that a trans person may have used the timing of their announcement in a way that works to their advantage in a legal fight unrelated to their sexuality isn't bigoted. Her being trans does not make her immune from discussion of her acts and motives behind the timing and method of those actions.

I would be just as critical of anyone else using similar methods to sway and manipulate public opinion.

[maddezmom]

57. You are free to express your opinion and others are free to form an opinion based on your posts.

Saying it was a publicity stunt to garner favor with the LGBT community when it isn't even their fight is nonsense, IMO. You do know what the T stands for right?

[snooper2]

76. I don't think Manning tried to pull that, but Kaitlyn and her mom sure did

And at first, it worked-

[stevenleser]

17. K&R Disagreement with Manning's actions should not translate into hate or transphobia. nt

[cali]

20. thank you. I'm finding the contempt and hate for trans people here

really eye opening and sickening.

[Rebellious Republican]

21. Wonder what some would say about someone that lived a stellar military life and career?

A Navy SEAL's biggest secret: Life as a transgender

Former team members praise Beck's courage to come out after 20 years.

In the super-secret world of the Navy SEAL, Chris Beck carried around an explosive secret of his own during his 20 years with the elite, all-male unit: a transgender life.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/06/04/seal-team-6-transgender-memoir-warrior-princess/2388431/

[Skidmore]

22. I have no problem with Manning's

gender dysphoria and support her steps to do whatever she needs to resolve the conflict she has felt around this. As for her leaking information, particularly in such a large amount, I do think that she can be given a full pass on all of it. I think some of it is more complex than a simple "embarrassment of the US armed forces." In fact, I would extend that assessment to the Snowden/Greenwald leaks as well. Since these individuals all released huge amounts of information without selectivity to make their point, I think there is undoubtedly damage at more levels of society than just the military and NSA structure as fallout.

[railsback]

23. Enough of these bullshit 'victim' threads

The only time I read about all the 'hate and outright rage' is when I read shit like this. Its the same pitiful outrage as when one writer calls Miranda a 'boyfriend', making that writer a homophobe, even though Rachel Maddow calls Miranda a 'boyfriend', too. Whatever.

[Rebellious Republican]

24. Food for thought.....

When I see a post I do not like, I ignore it. Least of all I do not post a reply, because that just bumps it back to the top. Then it gets bumped again when someone replies to my post, just like this.

[railsback]

52. I can't ignore bullshit passed around like its reality

Not going to do it

[Rebellious Republican]

53. Thanks for another bump!

[railsback]

55. Here's another - I don't care about bumps

In the end, they all go away, like Manning's story, say, in another 30 days, when people move on to another shiny object.

[Rebellious Republican]

60. Thanks for the contribution, it seems to be working.

[railsback]

62. Let's keep bumping, then

[Rebellious Republican]

134. Bump

[Cha]

115. That's you. Somebody had to call out the OP's Bullshit.

[Rebellious Republican]

135. Thanks for the bump!

[Rebellious Republican]

136. Whatever you call it, thanks again for the bump.

[treestar]

75. +1

I consider the issues entirely separate.

Manning's notoriety might even be giving it attention and some chance to educate. Instead of doing that, some prefer playing the victim.

[bunnies]

78. Your ignorance about whats been going on here...

doesnt make these threads "bullshit".

A tiny sample:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3517099
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=572723

Whaddaya know. I just found another!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3519511

[railsback]

91. So...

SNL is homophobic, references to the treatment of gays in other countries and religions is homophobic, and a question about gender neutrality is also homophobic.

If you want to see homophobia, go to FOXNation. This is nonsense.

[bunnies]

92. I guess you missed the part

likening gays to pedophiles who target pre-teen boys, eh? Yeah. Nothing to see here. Nothing at all. Your position is clear. All teh gays need to get over themselves and STFU. amirite? Why the fuck should they expect a modicum of respect from a "progressive" web site. Fuck 'em.

[Cha]

117. Yes, those are stupid insensitive asshole posts. And, I've never seen

those posters before. The OP said "many" and I haven't seen anything but compassion for Chelsea Manning.

[bunnies]

122. Have you seen Trumads OP?

yes, theres compassion but theres also something else. You'll recognize the names in that one.

[nomorenomore08]

155. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it's not there. Just saying.

Not to mention the instinctive discomfort I - and others - feel whenever someone accuses a minority group of "playing the victim." Fact is, trans people very often are victims in this society - just look at the recent murder in NYC.

[railsback]

158. I go through all these threads

The examples I've been linked to are so pathetically lame (as in, the offended have to jump to huge conclusions), I'm at a loss for words. Apparently, people base their beliefs on emotions alone. One person, who backs Greenwald, calls Miranda a 'boyfriend' and that's cool. Another, who is skeptical of Greenwald and calls Miranda 'boyfriend' is immediately labeled a homophobe. Good Gawd. Whatever.

[nomorenomore08]

159. I accept that there may be some "jumping to conclusions" involved.

But it's not as if this stuff is just made up out of thin air - bigotry toward trans individuals is very real, and exists even in more progressive circles.

[railsback]

161. I don't deny there's bigotry towards trans. Outside this site, it runs rampant

Its beyond obvious. I do not see it here. I see people questioning Manning's motives. People get the same treatment when they question Greenwald's motives, or Snowden's, or The Guardians. Immediately you're a STASI loving, Constitution hating, freedom revoking hater of America.

Its pathetic.

[HardTimes99]

26. A long-standing DUer whom I used to respect just stated

emphatically on another thread that "First off---He is a he...."

The proof of your point, imho, is that telling phrase "First off"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023517239#post80

[Bonobo]

68. His pro-woman stance was ALWAYS a bullshit act. nt

[tridim]

30. People are people.

It is bizarre that neo-DU is so concerned about labeling people based on sexual orientation.

Manning's sexual orientation is irrelevant, just like yours and mine.

[myrna minx]

34. It's not difficult to treat people with dignity and not mock

them or judge them for their gender identity. That's not bizarre, that's having empathy for your fellow human beings. What's bizarre is having to explain that on "neo-DU" to anyone.

[tridim]

42. Her sexual orientation is IRRELEVANT, as everyone's should be.

I don't introduce people to my gay friends as, "My gay friend John", I introduce them as "My friend John". Get it?

Maybe I missed a thread or something, but I haven't seen anyone other than the occasional RW troll mocking GLBT people on DU.

[earthside]

54. Not to some.

There is a cadre of folks here at DU and in the whole country for whom gender identity is everything.

Now, we are all subjected to the zealotry of anti-transphobia outrage.

In my ordinary, average life I also do not introduce people as my gay friend or my straight friend or my poverty-stricken friend or my diabetic friend or .... etc.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

83. Please learn the difference -

between sexual orientation and gender identity. I have no idea what Ms. Manning's sexual orientation is -- she could be straight, gay, bi, or asexual. Her gender identity is female.

[lunasun]

139. Really thank you... this site is getting like a rehash of some old Archie Bunker rerun..........

if it was just one old kook but so many here over and over is what sucks

[Hell Hath No Fury]

148. Kind of shocking --

but I hope at least SOME of it is ignorance and not bigotry, though I have seen way too much of the latter here.

[LWolf]

37. neo-DU

might be the best term I've read here in a few years.

[Lee-Lee]

51. I agree it is irrelevant, but her defense team is making it an issue

A press release all about it is designed to make it and issue and make the public talk about it.

But apparently pointing that out is bigoted...

[maddezmom]

59. Her attorney wants her to get medical treatment

Of course he is going to use the press.

[enlightenment]

128. This has nothing to do with Manning's

sexual orientation. The discussion is about people on DU who feel it necessary to smear her gender identity.

Please learn the difference between the two.

[myrna minx]

31. It's unacceptable is should not be tolerated on DU.

to our transgender DU family members. I'm so sorry the ugliness has burst forth. You don't deserve it.

[Puzzledtraveller]

39. I'm having difficulty making sense of the callousness of some here

I get and understand a lot about the differences of opinion we all have on various issues we discuss here. This is something I do not understand. Really surprised to see the mean spiritedness and vitriol of some here.

[myrna minx]

45. It really is shameful.

It already takes vast courage to be transgender in this world, but it doesn't mean the nastiness doesn't sting, especially when it comes from your own "side". It *is* difficult to make sense of it.

[vlyons]

35. Chelsea Manning has a lot of Moxie

If it were me, and if I were transgender, which I'm not, I would have kept it in the closet due to fear of harassment and abuse in prison -- military prison, no less. I have to give it the previous-Bradley Manning, who has requested to be considered a female, named Chelsea, that she has a lot of moxie and courage to be willing to step on this path. Whatever you may think of her decision to leak secrets, please consider that she has a noble heart. That's what's important.

Here's my prediction: One day Manning, assuming she doesn't die in prison, will gain freedom and become a spokesperson for whatever causes and projects appeal to her passion for truth. Maybe about politics, LGBT rights, peace, whatever.

So here's my question to DUers. Anyone know how to writer to her in prison?

[Puzzledtraveller]

36. Truly astounding some of the callousness that's been on display.

[Catherina]

88. Some of the political opportunism too

It's like ANY excuse to throw more people under the bus will do. The callousness is just more icing.

[Romulox]

41. The hateful rightwingers that DU has allowed to fester here are hateful.

This isn't something new.

[Hydra]

125. I think it's as simple as this

And I reject RW thinking and policies in all forms. They should likewise have no place here, but that's where we are.

[Swagman]

43. I wish Chelsea Manning all the best

[KittyWampus]

58. I think there is a lot of posturing going on right now. Your OP is the same as painting large #'s

of DU'ers who disagree with Obama because of racism, Greenwald cause he gay or Manning cause of her identity.

There may be a few offenders. Some of whom may be racists, homophobes or transphobes. Some might be trolls.

So since you decided to post "I see that for MANY people" indicates to me you are willing to use this issue as a form of posturing, a way to get back at others you disagree with.

[boston bean]

61. How about you stick to whether you think there is any of it on DU.

Instead of posturing, and deflecting from the issue.

[KittyWampus]

63. Go back an reread my post where I CLEARLY say there is SOME which at least in part comes from

trolls and some from biased individuals.

Or do you just spout crap without reading what others write?

[boston bean]

64. It was your deflection I am speaking to.

Call it out where you see it, don't try to minimize it or its effects.

[KittyWampus]

65. I deflected nothing. I pointed out posturing for political points by using a broad brush.

If you were intellectually honest, as others in this thread are, you'd "call it out when you see it".

[boston bean]

66. Accusing people who see it as posturing leads me to believe you

feel it is almost meritless, and not worthy of speaking about.

This poster wasn't posturing, you were, in an attempt to deflect from the issue.

Which may lead one to believe or think all sorts of things. And that would be only the fault of thee one doing the deflecting, and minimizing.

[KittyWampus]

69. Meritless? Go back an re-read my original post. Yet you continue down this particular asinine path.

whatever.

When your prime objective is to score cheap political points on a message board, you can't respond to what people actually say in plain language but start arguing about what you think they say.

So thanks for proving my point.

[boston bean]

70. Nice work at deflection. I suggest you re-read what you wrote. Then read

what I wrote in response.

[EC]

67. I just hope she

changes her mind about the blond hair, she looks like Liz Chaney in that picture released. When I first saw it was following a story about Liz Chaney's fishing license and I almost scrolled right past it because I thought it was another story about Liz...

[dionysus]

84. i don't agree with everything she did but i have no problem with Manning being transgender.

[DonCoquixote]

85. regardles of whether you are for or against Manning

Sex should not be a factor, PERIOD.

And frankly, I do not care if someone is a liberal, has voted liberal,has even goteen harassment for being liberal, if they say "there is room on board for everyone except (insert group here), then they either need to learn to row with the rest of us, or get thrown right off the boat!

[nomorenomore08]

156. Yeah, it's the "Love me, I'm a liberal!" thing, right? If you know what I mean...

No portion of the political spectrum is immune to bias or prejudice.

[scheming daemons]

86. Manning, IMO, is guilty of treason. Manning's gender identification is of no consequence to me.

I considered Manning a traitor three days ago as Bradley.

I consider Manning at traitor today as Chelsea.



I didn't become of "transphobe" because Manning's gender identification changed.



A criminal is a criminal.

[Bluenorthwest]

107. But factually speaking, Manning was not even charged with treason. This makes your opinion silly.

Treason is a specific word with an exacting meaning and it was never a charge leveled in this case. So you are just wrong. Because there are such things as facts and words do have actual definitions. The employment of decidedly incorrect terminology for the sake of hyperbolic impact is a dishonest tactic.

[scheming daemons]

111. I didn't say that Manning was charged with treason

I said in MY opinion, Manning is guilty of treason. I believe Manning SHOULD have been tried for treason... Manning's actions gave aid and comfort to enemies of the United States.

The fact that Manning wasn't charged with that crime is immaterial to whether someone can hold an opinion that Manning SHOULD have been charged with that crime.

[Hydra]

127. Manning was tried for giving aid and comfort to the enemy

And the Judge did the equivalent of laughing it out of court, despite all of the rules that stack the deck in favor of the State.

In a normal court, their case would have been dismissed. In the Kangaroo court, even they choked on it.

You are entitled to your opinion, but it's factually incorrect. Just like the Teabaggers or the RW Christians when they claim they are being oppressed.

[Catherina]

87. It's with great pride that I note that the person who stood up against our war crimes

and had the courage to expose them, is an LGBTQ so it's no surprise that defenders of those war crimes are attacking her and attacking those who have consistently stood by her.

Please my friend. Maybe you didn't see this thread from last year where people were already attacking Greenwald after they "just found out that Greenwald is Gay" and we fought against their homophobia tooth and nail in Meta to shame that banned hater and the haters who defiantly stood by their posts and their recs.

Thank you dear Scootaloo. It's all too clear where the lines are drawn but none of these lines are new. Over and over again, we find ourselves united on the same side against the hate

[KittyWampus]

90. Says the person who thought the photo of Manning with a blond wig was offensive.

[Catherina]

93. WTF are you dishonestly saying?

Really? I suggested a photo of Bradley Manning in a blond wig was offensive?

Who the fuck do you think you're fooling? You have some fucking nerve after your record. Are you ever out of your league. Again.

What I *suggested* was that known homophobes and transphobes would seize that to thrust even more hate on Manning because she dared make your hero look bad. You wouldn't know any of those people would you? Those foot soldiers of the empire's every crime?

Let me know if you need a MAP to find your way out of your dishonest, vitriolic attacks on people who dare criticize things you've defended here.

[joeybee12]

97. Selective memory you've got there...

I recall her post..she was offended that the Army decided to release it...in an obvious attempt to embarrass Manning...there was no point in releasing it other than for that reason, and it wasn't their place.

[cali]

98. Because Catherina thought that the picture had been released

by the prosecution to smear her, not because she was offended by her in a wig.

[maddezmom]

99. I think you are mistaken here

Catherina's post was actually foreboding for what we have seen on DU the Past few days.

[Bonobo]

100. Nauseating attack from you. Catherina is an absolute treasure

without a homophobic or transphobic bone in her body.

Go spread your DISGUSTING lies and innuendo elsewhere!

[cali]

102. if I were you, I'd delete this dishonest attack on Catherina

because people aren't going to let you get away with such disgusting crap.

[myrna minx]

103. You have lost all credibility with me. What a dishonest post.

I'm embarrassed for you.

[Bluenorthwest]

105. An extremely dishonest characterization of a DUer who is a constant and actual

and active advocate of LGBT equality.

[hlthe2b]

106. I believe you have totally mistaken what Catherina wrote and the point she was making

Rather than being even remotely homophobic, she was concerned that the very reaction we are seeing today, would be the result of the release of that photo. I, too, did not realize the photo had been put into evidence by the defense, but rather thought it was an intentional release designed to gin up homophobic/transphobic outrage and thus diminish Manning.

Her concerns were quite realistic, it seems.

Please reconsider what you posted. It is truly not fair to Catherina.

[bigtree]

108. you're way off on this one KW

Catherina is a strong advocate for LGBT rights and other rights, as well. I think the 'wig' thing was something other than how you characterized it. I agree with the other comments defending her.

[Octafish]

110. Catherina is a DU treasure.

If you disagree, great. State why. No need to libel and smear.

[Neoma]

112. It was offensive because they were protraying it as a mental illness!

Then released it to "prove" that he's mentally ill!

Catherina has been a strong supporter of all LGBT's for a long time. Pay attention next time. That's a really ugly attack.

[Marr]

121. You know, I never see you do jack shit but lie and push deceitful smears around here. /nt

[rhett o rick]

123. Did you misunderstand or are you deliberately misrepresent her post?

Looks like desperation to me.

If you dont agree with a point of view, attack the point of view not the poster.

[L0oniX]

124. OFFS ...so you can read minds and imply intent now huh? Miss Cleo has a job for you.

"the person who thought"

[great white snark]

149. Don't let them shut you down Kitty. They're exploiting the actions of a few to smear many.

No one is beyond reproach.

[idwiyo]

150. Your post is a pure and unadulterated bullshit. You KNOW damn well what that OP is about. Using such

a dishonest deliberate lie is shameful. Thankfully the only people who agree with you are very few people who use this same lie in their attempt to smear Catherina.

I understand you hate her because of her coverage of NSA issue, and her support of wistleblowers. Fine, go ahead and debate her, alert on her posts, etc.
Trying to smear Catherina instead with deliberate misrepresentation of her OP and outright lies says a lot about credibility of your posts. Shameful.

[bettyellen]

160. yes, this is so sick and twisted, I am astounded by it. Shame on Kitty.

[woo me with science]

152. What a trail of slime from this post by KittyWampus. nt

[xchrom]

114. Catherina is awesome. a good friend to all LGBTIQ folks.

and it's disgusting to see the smears against her.

[Fire Walk With Me]

118. ...

[Catherina]

129. Thank you my dear friend

I was shocked to see that. There are many things people can accuse me of but that's beyond the pale.

[woo me with science]

153. +1000000

[lupinella]

89. k&R n/t

[Fire Walk With Me]

94. Solidarity with LGBTQ struggles and rights; SHAME upon "democrats" and "liberals"

who don't get that this is their struggle as well!

[L0oniX]

101. K & R

[backscatter712]

104. Every single transphobic bigot here on DU needs to be PPR'd instantly.

And every juror who voted to leave a transphobic post should also be banned.

[rhett o rick]

162. I assume you want to lead the mob, er cleansing?

Your post is frightening. You want to PPR everyone YOU decide is transphobic and every juror that disagree with YOU.

[backscatter712]

163. I only have so much patience for all-out bigotry...

...and when Chelsea Manning made her announcement, there was a huge amount of it right here on DU.

[rhett o rick]

164. I also dont have patience for bigotry but realize that when these issues

that are very emotional come along, some times in the fervor to rid ourselves of bigots, innocent people get swept away by the mob. These issues are some times used by righteous bullies to attack others that they declare as bigots. I have seen cases where decent posters were falsely bullied out of DU under the justification of righteousness. Just a week ago a poster declared another poster as transphobic and proceeded to call her horrible names. He totally misinterpreted her post, either by accident or intent, and used the justification to say terrible things. His post was hidden but not before it did it's damage.

Your post 104 dont sound like the rationale of an open-minded Democrat. Sounds like a mob call. We have methods of dealing with bigots here and dont need to panic. Instant PPR sounds like something a tyrant would love, not Democrats. And we must never, ever censure a juror for how they vote.

Some times it's obvious who the bigots are and some times it's subjective. We need to avoid the rush to judgement that the conservatives love so much. We must not allow the bullies to ruin DU.

[Egalitarian Thug]

113. K&R Scootaloo, it's never compartmentalized. The authoritarian mindset pervades and forms

all thoughts. The only variable is in what intensity of stimulus is required to bring it out.

Any mind that accepts the concept that domination by some over others is required, will always retreat to that paradigm when encountering resistance. Further, those minds will also invariably submit to domination when it is asserted with sufficient force.

[Orsino]

116. I'm sure she would be delighted to be used to prove our superiority. n/t

[City Lights]

120. Well said!

[gulliver]

130. A "lot" of my "compatriots" think Lincoln is buried in Grant's tomb.

I know it. Don't ask me how. Closet idiots are everywhere. I want the Lincoln family to know that I know that their precious family member is not buried in Grant's tomb. He is buried in the Lincoln Memorial.

[lunasun]

140. EAGGGGGGCCCCHHHHHHHHH

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_Tomb
that's it

[struggle4progress]

138. You may want to read the article linked here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023521798

[Just Saying]

142. I didn't like what Chelsea did

Before I knew her gender identity. She was convicted of crimes that have nothing to do with her gender identity. I'm neither brooding nor angry but I think what she did was not okay, not because it embarrassed anyone, but because it was reckless, arrogant and illegal. She had no right to hack, steal and dump classified information.

Just like everyone who disagrees with Obama isn't racist, everyone who doesn't support Manning isn't a transphobe.

[barbtries]

145. ditto

i'm selective about what i read on du these days so i've managed to miss the transphobia for the most part, but i feel the need to reach out and say i'm with you too.

and against more WAR.
oh these days...

[Warren DeMontague]

151. I bet.

educational, isn't it.