I think we are fortunately still a ways from being an authoritarian state. And I am probably one

[Douglas Carpenter]

Last edited Sat Aug 24, 2013, 06:52 AM - Edit history (1)

of the most vehement in denouncing the surveillance state. . In a real authoritarian states I would be in jail and so would most of the posters on this forum. We still manage to have many basic democratic forms and a fair degree of rule of law however corrupted the democracy may be and however corrupted the rule of law actually cashes out to be in the real world. Visit a real authoritarian state where the police and the intelligence networks really do act with impunity all the time and the courts really are a joke and you will see what I mean. And by the way I have spent close to half life in real authoritarian states - so I do have some perspective on the matter.

My concern and condemnation of the ever increasing surveillance industrial complex is not so much a concern that some agent X is observing my funny little ways so they can blackmail me into only saying nice things about the power structure - I am really not losing a whole lot of sleep about that. My concerns is the realization that this amount of total full spectrum information gathering combined with almost limitless possibilities of technological enhancements operating in secrecy with very little accountability is creating a very centralized institution that will inevitably became a dangerous power in its own right. Although we are still a long way from life in a real authoritarian state - I cannot imagine any scenario in which we can continue down this road of ever expanding surveillance capabilities operating with the most advanced computer technology the world has ever known in an atmosphere of largely unaccountable secrecy and not create an institution that is a dangerous power in its own right - perhaps operating outside of the control of the official state. This is what will almost certainly happen if the situation is not brought under control soon.

[Arctic Dave]

1. I agree a little but I think we are closer to it then we imagine.

It's like a fence being built around you, in your mind you are still free because there is still a gap in the fence, then one day the gap is gone.

Most authoritarian states start out open and work their way into stricter and stricter roles out of fear of losing their authority.

[Douglas Carpenter]

2. well yes, I do believe that we are on the path heading in that direction - part of it is simply due

to technology - When you combine the technological ability with a secretive intelligence apparatus which has until very recently felt the post 9/11 political green light to do as they please with very little accountability - it is a natural formula for creating this institution which could very well end up with a lot of independent and largely unaccountable power

[msongs]

3. one step at a time...each year gets worse nt

[pnwmom]

4. Thank you for a realistic post. I agree -- these issues are a real concern, but we are

not there yet.

It gets tiresome to have to explain to seemingly intelligent people that no, we aren't living in a dictatorship; and no, our country's treatment of civil rights isn't just as bad as Russia's.

[Kber]

5. I think this might me the single most thoughtful post I've read on the subject

Thank you.

[Fire Walk With Me]

6. They've read history to not repeat its most obvious mistakes. The iron first

resides inside a velvet glove, this time around. The message has been firm and clear to protesters, activists, ecowarriors, journalists, and journalists' sources:

DO WHAT WE SAY OR ELSE.

Consider the members of Anonymous who are in long-term custody, the political prisoners of Occupy (PNW anarchist grand jury resistors, Chicago No NATO victims, Cleveland's 5 including a conviction for terrorism).


Did the FBI Use Occupy Cleveland Case to Equate Activism with Terrorism?
http://www.nlg.org/news/did-fbi-use-occupy-cleveland-case-equate-activism-terrorism

"You do not notice your chains until you attempt to rise."

[sendero]

7. And yet once we cross a certain threshold......

.... (not that far away) it won't matter if you like the authoritarian state or not, you will have no choice.

Some of us would prefer to forestall that possibility.

There is a reason the founders put strict strict limits on search and seizure, maybe you think you are smarter than they.

[progressoid]

8. Agreed but

that's not gonna stop me from opposing the creeping surveillance by our govt and their corporate buddies.

[Douglas Carpenter]

11. nor will it I. It must be stopped or we will find ourselves living in a society that is far from

free

[eomer]

9. I'm afraid what we have is the most sophisticated, most refined, managed version ever known.

And that therefore it is likely to have more longevity than previous iterations.

They have mastered the art of managing the dials.

[Warren Stupidity]

10. I think there are degrees and styles of "authoritarian state".

It doesn't require jackbooted thugs holding mass rallies and rounding up all dissidents.

However:
1. we incarcerate more of our population than any other nation.

2. our militarized war on drugs, now in its 4th decade, is in fact conducted on a "jackbooted thug basis" and has been targeted at our minority communities, and has long discarded constitutional protections that were normal when I was a kid. I think many of us have grown so used to this that we don't see it anymore.

3. the militarization of our police forces has spread from the war on drugs to routine police activities, and grotesque abuse of authority has become routine.

4. since 2001 and the patriot act we have accepted as normal gross invasions of state authority into our normal affairs both public and private. Everywhere we go we are subject to scrutiny, surveillance, detention, searches and seizures. Our cell phones are tracked, our cars are tracked, our movement through public spaces is tracked. As we know all of our internet communications are being scanned and frequently stored.

5. Our mass media has, through "deregulation" been consolidated such that there is effectively little or no independent news reaching most of the nation.

6. mass protest has been effectively suppressed. The right to assembly has been pronounced null and void.

7. since the "Ross Perot" scare, the duopoly has effectively and consistently prevented even the slightest chance of a successful third party effort, and both the Republican Party and especially the Democratic Party have made sure that internal insurgent efforts, such as Jesse Jackson's in the 80's will go nowhere. Citizen's United has closed the lid on any populist movement's electoral success for the near future.

8. constitutional law is ignored, international law is ignored. Fundamental rights are ignored. Our government maintains a secret assassination list that includes American citizens. So far it hasn't killed any of us within our borders, if that is a comfort.

9. we have been on a continual war footing for my entire life. I'm 61 years old.

This is not a 1930-style fascist state. It is an authoritarian state that is not totalitarian and maintains a facade of its previous existence as a representative democracy. It keeps the gloves on, until it doesn't, and then it has and will do whatever it takes to keep control.

[Douglas Carpenter]

12. I'll try one kick

[bemildred]

13. We are an authoritarian state, always have been, what we are not yet is a totalitarian state.

But there are clearly politicians in this country working hard to redress the oversight.

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. Read democracy inc

It will explain the theory of inverted totalitarianism very well.

Or go to the source and read woolin.

I grew up in their example of a working inverted totalitarian state. The United States at present is extremely familiar