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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWill the Democratic Party be hurt by the NSA scandal?
Scandal? What scandal?
That seems to be the tack the Administration is taking, although the President has recommended an investigative board to check it out. Many do not see it as a credible investigation.
But many Democrats are very concerned about the NSA and its spying shenanigans. Is the Party leadership under-estimating the severity of the problems with the NSA?
Will it hurt the Democrats in the next election or will it blow over?
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OnyxCollie
(9,958 posts)They could have done the right thing, but chose the 1% over the 99%.
99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)
Jackpine Radical
(45,274 posts)at least one segment of the Right smells blood in the water. They've got a "righteous hit" on Obama here (never mind that much of it happened on their watch, and the problem is as much the making of their own heroes as it is of the Democrats).
They've kept Benghazi going for months based on virtually no evidence. It will be much easier to keep this one going because of the substantial basis in reality, combined with the months-long trickling out of ever more-damning information.
The Right is divided on this issue, with the Neocon Cheney types siding with the Surveillance State, but the left is equally divided, with our Establishment types joined to those of the right.
It's gonna be a helluva mess. I don't know who will be hurt worse--the Dems because a lot of progressives will stay away from the polls, or the Repubs because of a potential third-party threat. If I had to bet, I would guess that the Dems will be hurt the worst because the R's (ever since their Perot debacle) are much better at enforcing party discipline and holding the Paulbots in line.
HardTimes99
(2,049 posts)and the Surveillance State on the Abash-Conyers amendment. (My Rep, Maxine Waters, voted for the amendment.) So my guess is that progressives will only be marginally damaged. However, as was the case in 2010, Blue Dogs will take it on the chin in 2014, as progresssives in their districts stay home in numbers that will make 2010 look like a Sunday picnic. And then the Blue Dogs will try to pin the loss on progressives, just like they did in 2010.
Eventually, though, we will wind up with a Democratic House caucus that is progressive, even if remains in the minority.
This and a lot of things. Been trying to tell 'em.
WouldbeCentrist
(35 posts)Totally agree.
I still remember earlier this year some memo being released by former Clinton man Doug Sosnik wherein he argued that the Democratic Party was "at considerable risk" once Barack Obama's term was over.
“Since Obama was elected President, the Democrats have lost nine governorships, 56 members of the House and two Senate seats,” said Sosnik.
Never take victory for granted.
MineralMan
(146,287 posts)If you're discussing the TRVE Democratic Party™, then perhaps. If you're talking about the actual Democratic Party that elected Obama to the Presidency twice, probably not.
Just Saying
(1,799 posts)Despite what it looks like here, most Americans are barely paying attention to this.
Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)Just Saying
(1,799 posts)
Most people are worried about keeping their job (or finding one), keeping their house, feeding their family, paying for healthcare, helping their parents who are on SS, can they afford college for their kids, etc.
Sorry that most Americans don't have the energy left to worry about what you've decided is most important.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)Just because you think poorly of others does not mean your jaded view is correct. Got anything at all other than a declaration?
Just Saying
(1,799 posts)It is asking for opinions and I said no for the reasons I stated. I believe the President's approval ratings prove my point. Do you have anything besides your opinion and this extremely biased board to prove otherwise?
And second, I did not say I thought poorly of others but that they have more important things to worry about. To say otherwise is disingenuous. Debate the issue instead of putting words in my mouth and attacking me personally.
It's not jaded to believe that others have concerns and worries that don't fit into your agenda. It's just reality.
Tarheel_Dem
(31,233 posts)
http://www.gallup.com/poll/1675/Most-Important-Problem.aspx
Hope that helps. Much to the chagrin of DU's more liberal membership, the NSA isn't a make or break voting issue for the electorate.
Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)Americans and most especially, how it is directly a result of schemes by the very rich. I am also well aware of how it is a useful tool to dissuade dissent:
8 Reasons Young Americans Don't Fight Back: How the US Crushed Youth Resistance
http://www.filmsforaction.org/news/8_reasons_young_americans_dont_fight_back_how_the_us_crushed_youth_resistance/#.UhZ1YsMTgSA.twitter …
1. Student-Loan Debt. Large debt—and the fear it creates—is a pacifying force. There was no tuition at the City University of New York when I attended one of its colleges in the 1970s, a time when tuition at many U.S. public universities was so affordable that it was easy to get a B.A. and even a graduate degree without accruing any student-loan debt. While those days are gone in the United States, public universities continue to be free in the Arab world and are either free or with very low fees in many countries throughout the world. The millions of young Iranians who risked getting shot to protest their disputed 2009 presidential election, the millions of young Egyptians who risked their lives earlier this year to eliminate Mubarak, and the millions of young Americans who demonstrated against the Vietnam War all had in common the absence of pacifying huge student-loan debt.
---
It is IMPERATIVE that we collectively realize what is purposefully being done to us in order to pry it off of our country, to restore the American dream.
Some insight into "them" and what they're doing, and specifically what "they" are afraid of (most importantly, people gathering to demand politics stop them)...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023528409
It is my work to fight those who are causing exactly the problems you describe, to gather people to fight its very cause, to restore this country to being about and for The People.
he was agreeing with you.
-p
Skittles
(153,150 posts)
Autumn
(45,058 posts)People that I know that are not political are talking about it.
Mojorabbit
(16,020 posts)Autumn
(45,058 posts)It's not going to blow over with me. Once I learn something I just can't seem to unlearn it.
Coyotl
(15,262 posts)How many times has that simple statement been true? The actions taken after a scandal begins sometimes are the ones that end careers. The response by President Obama and Congressional leaders is very important if they want to avoid blame for what Bush put in place.
winter is coming
(11,785 posts)Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)and then fight for illegal surveillance and detention of the people of this country. It's that simple. A lot of damage has been done. Why would anyone trust another democrat after this? Repair the damage with actual good works and candidates.
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)AnotherMcIntosh
(11,064 posts)OnyxCollie
(9,958 posts)Sec. of Defense, Chuck Hagel, is one of the four authors of HAVA, and has a financial interest in ES&S through the McCarthy Group.
What a coincidence!
Just Saying
(1,799 posts)And that everyone is allowed to vote. I find it sad that we're not more concerned abut this as a group. We can complain all we like but in the end if we can't vote or it doesn't count, "does it matter?"
AnotherMcIntosh
(11,064 posts)Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)Personally, I make copies of my ballot for my own records. Our votes are counted. More of my fellow Oregonians vote in each and every election.
So you think no one cares about NSA, but we elected Senators who reflect our views and they have lead the charge against these abuses.
I agree you need to fix the voting problems your State has. Not one 'electronic voting machine' in our entire State. No polling places, no creeps shaking you down for ID, no lines....
Just Saying
(1,799 posts)Yes, I will continue to call you on your bullshit.
I didn't say that no one cares about the NSA. That's a lie.. I said that "most Americans are barely paying attention." Not the same thing and I explained why I think that and it was that they had more important and immediate problems like food, shelter and health.
I'm glad you have things all worked out in Oregon but I guess the rest of us working in blue and purple states are just not as awesome as you. 
We'll try harder.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)that I myself make a copy of my completed ballot. Not sure why other States love to have long lines and 'e voting' and all of that crap, but I do know that you could change it if you tried.
Demo_Chris
(6,234 posts)LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)I don't plan on voting and neither do many members of my family. Not just NSA, there is a general anger that a caste system is developing in America with the elites immune from laws and financial losses.
Skidmore
(37,364 posts)Genius!
mick063
(2,424 posts)If people are apathetic, then some shock and awe may wake them up.
The slow methodical change will have grandchildren raised without knowing what public works was. Better that people that lived in the times of public works see the evil future now.
Hasten not what I fear, but what is inevitable if we follow the current Democratic path.
Skidmore
(37,364 posts)LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)What a choice to get people volunteering and donating.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)After all, if you voted, people like Elizabeth Warren might get elected.
It's a much better plan to just let that caste system fuck you over without resistance. That way you can be all hipster as you get screwed.
Amonester
(11,541 posts)even Elizabeth Warren would not be able to 'change' Washington.
She would be *invited* to go along with their plan, or...
jeff47
(26,549 posts)And you refusing to vote is how she remains alone.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)You and those members of your family. I'm sure you'll all be thrilled when a couple more Scalia's hit the court.
grasswire
(50,130 posts)They have sniffed the blood in the water and believe there is a segment of Democratic voters who can be stolen on this issue.
Their strategy is this: not pile on Obama for this because that will turn off those Dem who could be stolen. Just run positive campaigns supporting individual privacy and oversight of intelligence.
It could work for them, if they can control their culture crazies and also woo the 15 points of young people Obama has lost in the intel scandals.
Mnpaul
(3,655 posts)A lot of House Republicans voted to keep it funded. In Minnesota, every Republican voted for funding it and almost every (except one conservative Dem) voted against it.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)The Republicans will not be harmed by funding it. This scandal divorced itself from reality long ago.
winter is coming
(11,785 posts)wooing 15 points' worth of young people. 
mick063
(2,424 posts)A big fear would be a "united front" on the side of NSA surveillance.
Some party infighting is desperately needed. The party must be at war with itself for the slim chance that it may eventually reflect a more representative view.
oldhippie
(3,249 posts).... he says. How can it hurt? Any more than the other phony scandals?
winter is coming
(11,785 posts)not just the mouth-foamers on Fox who are up in arms about it.
DontTreadOnMe
(2,442 posts)DO you work for the NSA?
Do you know anyone who works for the NSA?
Do you have any classified documents that you can enlighten us with?
Because if not, then you don't know jack shit about the NSA.... so stop pretending that it is "criminal" or whatever else you are accusing the program of doing. You have ZERO facts.
winter is coming
(11,785 posts)DontTreadOnMe
(2,442 posts)It's right here in New York... on the Hudson.
Whisp
(24,096 posts)I think that is a more relevant question.
mick063
(2,424 posts)That which does not kill you, makes you stronger. Short term pain for a better, more representative party to emerge.
The party is in desperate need of dissent to provide the "real change" our President campaigned on. The lockstep approach will spell disaster. It is time to go beyond fealty and restore faith in public works.
Whisp
(24,096 posts)have you considered working with what you have and improve and build on it instead of throwing it all away - which sounds like a lot here would like. total catastrophe, bring it all down to build it up into a Nirvana which does not exist.
I think a lot here are forgetting who the enemy is. There will never be perfection in anything involving humans. For those seeking perfection, I recommend that you wait for it in another planet or lifeform because it does not exist in this one.
mick063
(2,424 posts)They will irrevocably damage themselves for at least two generations.
"Seeking perfection" is a lame excuse. You know it. The claims of purity tests are bullshit. You know it.
Either you believe in public works and representation for the common man or you do not.
Place weights on each side of the balance scale and see which way it tips.
Not a purity test. A measurement.
kentuck
(111,079 posts)What do you mean?
Tarheel_Dem
(31,233 posts)that "emergence" since 2000. It prevented a Democrat from taking the oath, but I don't think you'll find enough real Democrats to sacrifice at the alter of progressive purity. The Naderites managed to pick off enough Democrats to help install Bush/Cheney, I'm almost certain lightening won't strike twice. But you can always hope, right? 
railsback
(1,881 posts)like national gun registries and national medical records, a pure violation of our 4th Amendment rights... see, even the Democrats agree with us that the Obama Administration, the leader of the Democratic party, is hellbent on TYRANNY!!!!!!
Well done.
devils chaplain
(602 posts)People are smart enough to know that the Republicans would be pulling the same crap were they in office.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)grasswire
(50,130 posts).....is a big indicator of exactly how Democrats have been hurt.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)Tarheel_Dem
(31,233 posts)cies. If you think the NSA "scandal" will follow through to a midterm election a year & a half from now. Good luck with that! There are many reasons that traditional Democratic voters don't show up in midterms, but NSA won't be one of 'em.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/124922/Presidential-Approval-Center.aspx
grasswire
(50,130 posts)Controversy over the National Security Agency’s surveillance programs is eroding President Obama’s popularity — particularly among young voters.
Some polls show a double-digit drop in Obama’s approval rating since Edward Snowden revealed NSA secrets, weakening the president ahead of fall fights with congressional Republicans over the budget and immigration.
Polling taken by The Economist and YouGov finds a 14-point swing in Obama’s approval and disapproval rating among voters aged 18-29 in surveys taken immediately before the NSA revelations and last week. Overall, the swing in Obama’s approval rating moves just four points.
A USA Today/Pew Research poll released in June found that young voters were significantly more likely to support Snowden's decision to leak classified material. While 60 percent of 18- to 29-year-olds said exposing the surveillance programs served the public good, just 36 percent of those over 65 said the same.
Americans under 29 said by a 50-44 percent margin the U.S. should not pursue a criminal case against him, while every other age bracket said the government should. Younger Americans were also more likely than any other age group to disapprove of the NSA's surveillance programs overall.
“Younger voters tend to believe the Internet should be an area of free speech and free communication, and the idea that the government is looking into what you’re doing is distasteful — and particularly distasteful if run by a president they voted for,” said Julian Zelizer, a political science professor at Princeton University.
“The narrative also goes against the fundamentals of President Obama, representing status quo politics and more of the same kind of policies that existed under President Bush, so Obama ceases to be an agent of change,” he added.
http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/317959-nsa-story-cuts-into-obamas-popularity-with-young-voters
Tarheel_Dem
(31,233 posts)Remember this?
POLLSTER UPDATE: CNN Poll Exaggerates Barack Obama Approval Decline
Posted: 06/17/2013 6:41 pm EDT
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/17/barack-obama-cnn-poll_n_3456322.html
I'll wait for others to back up Pew.
panzerfaust
(2,818 posts)
Guess I just don't have my priorities straight?
winter is coming
(11,785 posts)
on point
(2,506 posts)Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)BlueCheese
(2,522 posts)It may hurt both parties-- and thus, given the zero-sum nature of the two-party system, neither party as a whole.
The problem for those of us who think the NSA has gone way too far is that parts of both parties support it, and parts of both parties oppose it. My hope is that the NSA surveillance takes out enough pro-surveillance people across the spectrum.
Honestly, this issue is so big to me right now that I'm willing to make it almost determinative in my voting. Certainly in the primary-- any anti-surveillance Democrat gets my vote over any pro-surveillance Democrat. In a general election, I'd actually think about voting for a Republican who opposes this than a Democrat who does. This issue is that important to me.
forestpath
(3,102 posts)Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)Why would Wyden be hurt? If anything, his reputation has grown stronger because of his honorable fight for transparency. Same for Merkley and DeFazio. In CA, DiFi is a done deal, as are many 'moderates' who voted along with Republicans for war and for heavy handed spying.
This is one of those moments that redefines the Party and recasts the power in the Party.
Lint Head
(15,064 posts)DontTreadOnMe
(2,442 posts)BIG BROTHER is watching what you eat!
muriel_volestrangler
(101,308 posts)That's scarily obsessive of you. And aggressive.
Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)99Forever
(14,524 posts)And that will continue to grow. In the meantime, True Believers and the Administration they worship, are whistling passed the graveyard.
They will get exactly what they deserve in the midterms.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)They've successfully pushed the scandal way beyond what the leaks document. It's going to cause a ton of damage in 2014 no matter what reality is.
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)Last edited Sun Aug 25, 2013, 06:41 PM - Edit history (1)
How many ranting about surveillance have seen Issa yelling and screaming about it? I have yet to see any response from him on this getting a hearing. He has not made anything stick so far and the GOP would love to find something. He would be the one to convince. I think even Issa can see the Constitution is being followed on this. Perhaps the group who will be hurt is the anti-spying group since real traction has happened because they did not come to the table with clean hands.
Dawson Leery
(19,348 posts)Bush and the GOP did the same thing. The current GOP is split on their support for it.
Many Repugs who supported it with Bush now oppose it because Obama is President.
City Lights
(25,171 posts)now support it when Obama does it.
Amonester
(11,541 posts)They failed, and will fail again.
Response to kentuck (Original post)
mother earth This message was self-deleted by its author.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)The parties at this point exist primarily as tools to keep us divided and unable to unite against what the Plutonomy is doing to all of us.
Response to woo me with science (Reply #64)
mother earth This message was self-deleted by its author.
Autumn
(45,058 posts)Right here. mother earth, you said it all. Thank you.
DontTreadOnMe
(2,442 posts)it's all about anti-government scare tactics. It plays right into the Republican talking points.
Those who claim to be Democrats should be ashamed for falling for such blatant Rethug tactics. The same old divide and conquer works every time.
kentuck
(111,079 posts)What would you not support??
DontTreadOnMe
(2,442 posts)Since I live near the tri-state area, and knew many people who were killed in the Trade Center on 911, maybe I have a different perspective than you do about surveillance and security.
I also work in the IT sector, and have experience about what types of "spying" the NSA is doing... and most people here on DU have ZERO experience in understanding how it is done, or stored. They are just against the entire concept... meanwhile it has been going on for decades, but suddenly NOW you have a problem with... and you don't even know EXACTLY what you have a problem with.. just the CONCEPT of it is enough for you to be against it. It is irrational fear without any facts.
AND it plays right into the hands of Republican talking points, that of being "anti-government". The extreme Left is being played, and they don't even realize it.
kentuck
(111,079 posts)Have you even read what the NSA has admitted to in the last two weeks alone?
Where's your yellow-striped snake?
DontTreadOnMe
(2,442 posts)the rubes are so easily fooled.
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)We recently had some one describe how the internet works. Kind of important if you want to discuss this topic rationally. They were called a troll for their efforts.
Much of the outrage is for the sake of outrage, and little else.
And it is part of the anti-government GOP strategy. Block everything. Get everyone to hate the entire government. Cut taxes. Drown the government in a bath tub.
The GOP won't be able to win with ideas, the demographics don't work. So they need to discourage the voters that they can't out right suppress.
And some play right into it.
Autumn
(45,058 posts)be ashamed for going along with the blatant rethug policies. The Democratic party doesn't want to be divided , the leaders should change their tactics.
Tarheel_Dem
(31,233 posts)
kentuck
(111,079 posts)???
DJ13
(23,671 posts)I say that only because the GOP doesnt dare make use of it, for fear its beginnings in the Bush adminostration comes to light.
Then theres the complicity of the MSM in covering it up all these years, so they wont run with it.
The result will be as much of a coverup as our political system can, with outside the US media covering it.
busterbrown
(8,515 posts)military industrial complex... Libertarian Republicans not so much. Dems will not be hurt by this scandal.
Much more concerned about the punk response Administration has had to lies of Obamacare..
This if not turned around immediately will hurt..
skippy66
(57 posts)Savannahmann
(3,891 posts)The Democratic leadership seems determined to pretend that nothing is wrong. They use artful phrases like balancing civil rights with security. Civil Rights are not balanced, they are the default position. When in doubt, pick the Civil Right. We don't decide that the Sixth Amendment is being followed because fifty one percent of the accused were allowed an attorney. We don't claim that on balance, a majority of those accused had access to legal council. We demand it for every single person accused period.
We don't decide that the First Amendment is all fine and dandy when the lock the protesters into a cage and call it a free speech zone.
But we say that the 4th Amendment is not being violated in a majority of cases, and therefore on balance we're following the rules.
The first party that figures this out wins. The first party that gets out in front on this issue, wins. If the Rand Paul faction of the Rethugs get the Republicans to listen to this issue, then the Republicans will pick up seats in the House, the Senate, and have the momentum headed into the Presidential.
We all know why the Democratic Party refuses to see it. Dukakis. We are terrified of being labeled soft on anything. So we come out of the chute with both guns blazing.
Look at Pardons. The President used to Pardon just about anyone who wrote a letter. Harry Truman pardoned over 2,000 people. He wasn't even in office for two full terms, and he pardoned over 2,000 people. By Comparison, with an even larger Prison Population, President Clinton pardoned just 459.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_pardoned_or_granted_clemency_by_the_President_of_the_United_States
We don't dare pardon a bunch of people now, why it might look like we were soft on crime. And God forbid that those pardoned commit another crime, we'd look like we victimized the people and we'd hear about Willie Horton all over again.
Nobody can over-rule a Presidential Pardon. He could walk into the Oval office every day and pardon fifty people, and no soul on earth can do a damn thing about it. It is his Constitutional Privilege. Yet we don't dare use that authority, because someone might say we're soft on crime.
For God's sake, George W. Bush III Jr. pardoned more people by this point in his terms than our guy, the Compassionate Democrat has. Granted, most of Bush's were signed in Crayon, but still.
If we don't order the Military in every time someone shakes their fist at us, we're labeled as soft on defense. So we bomb the crap out of anyone who whispers that America is bad.
So as long as the fear of being labeled soft on defense exists. We're going to defend spying on the citizens, and we're going to hand the advantage on the issue over to the fucking Rethugs that started it. But it won't matter who started it. It will only matter who appears to be fighting it.
gulliver
(13,180 posts)Democrats have disassociated themselves from Snowden/Greenwald fairly successfully so far and have correctly deplored them. That stands to gain us votes. A tiny minority on the left has gulled itself into thinking Snowden/Greenwald have done something positive, but they aren't given any traction or credence by authentic, rational liberals and progressives. That also makes us look good to voters, and again we stand to gain from it at the polls.
Th1onein
(8,514 posts)When anybody else calls me, I SCREAM at them about this. I am furious about it.
Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)libertarian wing of the Republican Party mounting much of anything. If they do - they will rip the Republican Party asunder. The GOP is really far, far more psychologically invested in "the war on terror" and thus the surveillance state than the Democratic Party. Having said that, this issue is not going to go away and will remain an internecine conflict within the Democratic Party for some time to come.
RedCloud
(9,230 posts)Bring it on, I say!
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)It will give them something to campaign against. Claim that they aren't a part of the inside crowd because they are willing to go against it even when the leader of their party isn't willing to fight it. The most important thing for them is to become elected to office. They know that once they get into office they do not need to hold on to campaign promises. It is easier for them to stay in than to get in.
kentuck
(111,079 posts)and have their supporters right here on DU and proudly wave their yellow snake flag of the Tea Party and claim to represent the Democratic Party are nothing but infiltrating Tea Baggers. Those that hold hands with these types of Democrats are questionable "Democrats" in my opinion, and should be taken with a grain of salt. You know who you are and so does everyone else. I think your are in the wrong place? Keep talking your way out of the door.
Hydra
(14,459 posts)But this scandal was VERY damaging. The idea that there are only cosmetic differences between the parties really can't be argued where the NSA/MIC/War of Terror are involved, especially based on the revelations and public responses.
President Obama campaigned on the difference between what he would do, and asked everyone to trust him to do so. The walkback on that caused most of the damage, IMO.
kentuck
(111,079 posts)When they don't have the strength or the courage to look in the mirror.
Hydra
(14,459 posts)People's lives are at stake, but to them, it's all about who wins, what smears they can get to stick, and "My President."
Eerie how similar it is to the Bush Era's other side.