Pardon my ignorance but has evidence of chems been found on the ground in Syria?

[Javaman]

by an UN inspections team?

I haven't read anything about that but I could have missed it.

Anyone know?

[uponit7771]

1. No, US is now saying it's "too late" because evidence would have dissipated by now. This doesnt pass

...the smell test.

If you're going to use a nuke blow up 6 cities and 5 military installations at one time because there wont be a second chance

You don't go off and kill 1300 people in a small town that has little to no strategic need

[Javaman]

2. Pretty much what I suspected.

rush to war with hyperbole as the excuse.

I'm getting tired of that.

[uponit7771]

3. +1,I do think they'll find chemical weapons have been used but not find WHO used them just the names

...of the Syrian gov (via russia) on the bombs

Either way, just another excuse to blow crap up...screw with the Russians and start something bigger so the MIC can be feed

[geek tragedy]

4. Evidence of a chemical attack, no evidence as of yet as to the villains who used it. nt

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/08/25/doctors-without-borders-medecins-sans-frontieres-says-355-died-of-neurotoxic-symptoms-in-syria/

Sans Frontieres (MSF, Doctors Without Borders) said 355 people had died earlier this week of “neurotoxic” symptoms as the Syrian government and its foes accused each other of using chemical weapons.

MSF said around 3,600 patients displaying “neurotoxic symptoms” had flooded into three Syrian hospitals on the day of the alleged attacks, and 355 of them died.

“Medical staff working in these facilities provided detailed information to MSF doctors regarding large numbers of patients arriving with symptoms including convulsions, excess saliva, pinpoint pupils, blurred vision and respiratory distress,” MSF director of operations Bart Janssens said.

But MSF stressed it had no scientific proof of the cause of the symptoms nor could it confirm who carried out the attack.

Unless an army of cobras invaded, mass neurotoxic symptoms are evidence of a chemical attack.

[Javaman]

5. And suppose it's found out the rebels used them?

and we bomb the Syrian government?

the rush to war is so childish.

[geek tragedy]

8. There are several common sense rules, and none of them are satisfied

at this point.

1. Attack must actually accomplish something.

2. Attack must be legal/justified.

3. Attack must not do active harm to our interests.

[Catherina]

6. Evidence of something was found but the first UN inspection team said it came from the rebels

so we discounted that report outright and she was quietly shuffled off the scene and statements were issued that it wasn't clear but her initial report was very clear. Watch the video. She very clearly says the chemicals "that was used by the opponents, by the rebels, and we have no, no indication at all that the government, Syria, authority of the Syrian government, has used chemical weapons".

6 May 2013
UN's Del Ponte says evidence Syria rebels 'used sarin'

Carla Del Ponte: "I was a little bit stupefied by the first indication of the use of nerve gas by the opposition"

Testimony from victims of the conflict in Syria suggests rebels have used the nerve agent, sarin, a leading member of a UN commission of inquiry has said.

Carla Del Ponte told Swiss TV that there were "strong, concrete suspicions but not yet incontrovertible proof".

Ms Del Ponte did not rule out the possibility that government forces might also have used chemical weapons.

Later, the commission stressed that it had "not reached conclusive findings" as to their use by any parties.

"As a result, the commission is not in a position to further comment on the allegations at this time," a statement added.

The BBC's Imogen Foulkes in Geneva says the statement was terse and shows that the UN was taken by surprise at Ms Del Ponte's remarks.

...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-22424188

Then we have news reports from Turkey arresting rebels and confiscating sarin gas from the rebel group and later
intercepting sarin gas being shipped to the rebels but they wouldn't publicize who shipped it. A few weeks later, Syrian authorities said they busted some rebel labs where they found sarin gas and other chemicals in containers from Saudi Arabia.

On late May, Turkish newspapers widely reported that Turkish security forces have arrested Al-Nusra Front fighters in the southern provinces of Mersin and Adana near the Syrian border and confiscated 2 kg of sarin gas from them. Then in June, Iraq discovered "two facilities in Baghdad to produce sarin and mustard gas" belonging to the anti-Assad al-Nusra rebels.

The UN has been repeatedly clear, as has Doctors With Borders where they pre-empted Kerry's misleading, manipulative statement with a press release, that, so far, there's no proof the Assad regime used chemical weapons, just that something was used by someone.

If you haven't been following this from the start, here's a decent place to catch up: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_civil_war#Chemical_weapons

[Xithras]

7. The rebels themselves have confirmed that they have chemical weapons.

They released one video announcing that they have them (and showing rabbits being killed by the gasses during trials), and then another pair of videos alluding to chemical suicide bombers who would detonate their chemical weapons as a last defense against government forces if their positions were falling. One of the videos also specifically names a short list of towns with majority Alawite and Christian populations in Latakia that apparently contain chemical weapons stockpiles that will be detonated if Assad's forces try to take them.

The only group claiming that the rebels DON'T have chemical weapons seems to be the American government. Everyone from the UN to the rebels themselves have confirmed that they actually DO.

[Catherina]

9. "as a last defense against government forces if their positions were falling"

which is when everything turned, after the got their ass kicked in Homs. Do you have links to those videos? I have some of the more gruesome ones, especially several cannibalism ones that Putin threw in Cameron's face during a joint press conference. Those videos were hard to watch but they're important. If you have links, would you PM them to me please?

Here's an excerpt and a video about that press conference I'm talking about since it came up.

In icy exchanges at a press conference, Putin said: "You will not deny that one does not really need to support the people who not only kill their enemies, but open up their bodies, eat their intestines in front of the public and cameras. Are these the people you want to support? Is it them who you want to supply with weapons? Then this probably has little relation to humanitarian values that have been preached in Europe for hundreds of years."

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/16/putin-warns-against-arming-syrian-rebels

Imagine what a speech Kerry could have given if it wasn't the rebels massacring and cannibalizing people. Congratulations on the *democracy*. It's no wonder we have certain people fighting foreign news sources here. There's not enough support for another war as it is. Imagine if the truth got to us.

[MrMickeysMom]

10. Thank you, Catherina, for that informative post...

It's hard enough for persons working (my day off today) to keep up, given the choices being reported.

It's unbelievable to hear the orchestrations coming from our own government, but not as shocking to see how trumped up charges are being carried through via the usual channels..

NPR
All news networks

Let's see how mainstream Al Jazeera America tries to be about this tonight.

[Catherina]

11. Al Jazeera America isn't going to report objectively on Syria

First they're backed by Qatar which is arming the rebels and AJAM has a US driven corporate agenda now.

Greenwald wrote about it too, based on leaked emails, a month ago.

I can't get them where I am so let me know. You're welcome my friend.

[MrMickeysMom]

12. I knew I'd get something to read on AJAM from you... sigh...

Regardless, if there's a faint hope that the interactive feedback (some of their news appears to interact with tweets and Facebook weighing in on what they're presenting in "real time&quot , I'll be more encouraged.

Greenwald's article is excellent, by the way. He had every hope I did and still do.

Meanwhile... Al Jazeera is VERY polished and is trying VERY hard to win over audiences, but with the enormous PR related industry firmly backing it's success, it's gonna do what it can to win viewership. I shouldn't kid myself, even though I'm looking for the next Al Gore/Current run network... I'll keep supporting Amy Goodman and newer internet based options.

[Catherina]

13. I'm sorry it wasn't better news

I'll bet they'll still be miles better than CNN and MSNBC just by virtue of going more in depth on stories. DemocracyNow is a national treasure! I wish we had 10 more like that.

[MrMickeysMom]

14. One more thing, Catherina... AJAM's discussion tonight-

Surely agree with you that they offer better chances of "in depth" interviews... I saw this tonight during AJ's interview with Ambassador Richard Butler (you know he was one of the weapons inspectors in Iraq with Ritter who were chased away and never allowed to finish their report).

Butler blasted another person in same interview (private consultant) who pointed to a few Western nations having a say as to what actions would need to be taken against Syria, making a point several times to state it was within the UN Security Council's well-defined role to agree if anything were to take place. His perspective not to jump and intervene was made over and over, and that the steps should include actually examining not only what happened but who was responsible. Butler made a very strong point of this and got the last word in emphasizing it.

So, you're right so far ... and also right that Democracy Now is better than them all.

[Catherina]

16. It's good to know that's the case. When Clinton was complaining that AJE & co were stealing viewers

She too brought that up

So they worked on it a bit and next thing you know, Al-Jazeera America Opens with Endorsements from the like of John McCain and AJE is cut off to US viewers.

This is just the first few minutes of the 1 hour promo. McCain's endorsement is at 1:28

[malaise]

15. Of course not

but the war profiteers need money for Christmas shopping.

[Catherina]

17. Senior US & UK chem weapon experts say visual evidence doesn't supports the claims

Western experts on chemical warfare who have examined at least part of the footage are skeptical that weapons-grade chemical substances were used, although they all emphasize that serious conclusions cannot be reached without thorough on-site examination.

Dan Kaszeta, a former officer of the U.S. Army's Chemical Corps and a leading private consultant, pointed out a number of details absent from the footage so far: "None of the people treating the casualties or photographing them are wearing any sort of chemical-warfare protective gear," he says, "and despite that, none of them seem to be harmed." This would seem to rule out most types of military-grade chemical weapons, including the vast majority of nerve gases, since these substances would not evaporate immediately, especially if they were used in sufficient quantities to kill hundreds of people, but rather leave a level of contamination on clothes and bodies which would harm anyone coming in unprotected contact with them in the hours after an attack. In addition, he says that "there are none of the other signs you would expect to see in the aftermath of a chemical attack, such as intermediate levels of casualties, severe visual problems, vomiting and loss of bowel control."

Steve Johnson, a leading researcher on the effects of hazardous material exposure at England's Cranfield University who has worked with Britain's Ministry of Defense on chemical warfare issues, agrees that "from the details we have seen so far, a large number of casualties over a wide area would mean quite a pervasive dispersal. With that level of chemical agent, you would expect to see a lot of contamination on the casualties coming in ,and it would affect those treating them who are not properly protected. We are not seeing that here."

Additional questions also remain unanswered, especially regarding the timing of the attack, being that it occurred on the exact same day that a team of UN inspectors was in Damascus to investigate earlier claims of chemical weapons use. It is also unclear what tactical goal the Syrian army would have been trying to achieve, when over the last few weeks it has managed to push back the rebels who were encroaching on central areas of the capital.

...

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.542849

and please note this, with hat tip to David Krout and his thread, a UN inspection isn't "pointless" as the administration is trying to convince everyone.

August 27, 2013 (New York Times): "Scientists have discovered that sarin, a deadly nerve agent, can be detected long after its use on the battlefield. In one case, forensic experts went to a Kurdish village in northern Iraq four years after Iraqi warplanes had dropped clusters of bombs there. The experts found a unique chemical signature of the lethal toxin in contaminated soil from bomb craters.

"Such findings suggest that the Syrian government would have a hard time hiding evidence if it did indeed use chemical weapons against civilians in a large-scale attack last week."

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/28/science/not-easy-to-hide-a-chemical-attack-experts-say.html