What did you all expect after the Arab Spring?

[Skidmore]

Did you truly expect nations structured with the same institutions and political fault lines of the US? Really? I mostly read here these days because I'm frankly flabbergasted that there seems to be some sort of magical thinking along the lines that a few demonstrations and an election here or there would erase generations of unrest and conflicting allegiances. That peace would suddenly reign and everyone could go home and chill. That doesn't happen in any system in nature or manmade. Vacuums are filled and sometimes in ways we do not like.

I needed to rant a bit. I don't give a whit if anyone agrees or disagrees with me. I'm disgusted to the core. Among the most critical and shaping events of my life are the vivid memories of sitting in the dark in a basement in Tehran during the Iran-Iraq war trying to calm my frightened toddler and 5 year old and listening to incoming missile strikes. Knowing that each boom and shudder meant death and maiming. Knowing that the basement provided only an illusion of safety. As much as I understood that the theocratic government that took the place of the bloody monarchy was no different, it was an elected government by the people of that nation. Therefore, my expectations for outcomes for these nations are not quite the same, I think, as those of some here.

The other thing that really leaves me gobsmacked is the new found tolerance for dead children and babies--to wit, Syrian babies. Are dead Syrian babies less worthy than dead Iraqi or Afghani babies? It is all a freaking horror and nothing to be sanguine about or to play political games around.

I'm not calling for war. I am calling for some realistic international cooperation to isolate Assad and his regime with the realization that further similar atrocities on Assad's part may very well mean that the international community may need to step up. The world cannot afford another war and those children in that school and who were victims of gassing deserve justice. In the meantime, the bloodletting and pooh flinging on DU continues. You want to work for something? Let's try working toward disarmament and shutting down some of the weapons productions and international sales that create such large scale mayhem.

[LuvNewcastle]

1. There are certain elements in this country who want to

get in the middle of this conflict because they see an opportunity to sell their weapons. That's my biggest reason for opposing U.S. military action in Syria. With Russia supplying Assad and the U.S. supplying the rebels, this conflict could go on for a lot longer, killing even more people. It's essentially the same thing that happened between the U.S. and China in Vietnam. Arms dealers/ manufacturers don't care how many die, they want to make money.

I think our money and energy would best be spent supporting the Red Cross, Doctors Without Borders, and other organizations who can make sure the victims of this conflict are treated and fed. We would do a hell of a lot more good and build up a lot more goodwill if we assist them in that way. If we can get other countries to do that with us, we could accomplish a lot and if, in the course of doing our charity work, we see a way to assist them militarily, we would be much more likely to gain the cooperation of our allies.

[riverwalker]

2. Red Cross and MSF

(Doctors Without Borders/Médecins Sans Frontières MSF) do not work inside Syria, neither does the Red Cross. (However there is The International Red Cross and Red Crescent Movement) MSF works with refugees, and supply hospitals and doctors already inside Syria.
http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/search.cfm?cx=010337337539629337583%3A-83fbtvg-f0&cof=FORID%3A11&q=syria&sa.x=0&sa.y=0

[LuvNewcastle]

5. I guess we'd just have to contribute to the organizations who

will go to Syria. Doesn't the UN have a humanitarian organization? It seems like they would be the ideal candidates for a mission like that. Maybe we could find a way to organize something with our allies to help the people there. Surely we could get a lot of countries to help us give aid to victims. It would be a good precedent to set for victims of future conflicts as well.

[WovenGems]

3. Sunni Caliphates n/t

[global1]

4. A 'Hot Summer' And Then An 'Arab Fall' And Then Maybe A 'Winter Of Discontent'....nt

[FarCenter]

6. Islamic theocracies

Democracy is like Kleenex; you use it once.

[Skidmore]

8. You use the idea of democracy to purge

just like the Rs whipping up the notion that people would be free if they could only get rid of government influence. That's when the religious right swept in under the guise of seeking rights they already had. Now that they bamboozled people into believing they have been persecuted, they set about purging public servants and laws. We are no better here, and it scares me that so many on the left appear to be willing to jump on board the Great Purge with the libertarian wing of the Rs.

[blm]

7. And I believe that Obama, Biden, Kerry and Hagel are on the same page

you are. They don't want war and in Kerry's case he has been actively preventing war in Syria for 8 years - which is when the war hawks tried to expand into Syria back in 2005. And, but for the release of the Downing Street Memos which crushed Bush's credibility with other world leaders, and then Katrina sank his poll numbers further, this nation would have ended up in war then.

[mick063]

9. If you believe we have lost our Democracy, as I do

I am left wondering what to believe.

Are the Democracies in the Middle East more representative than our own?

Stop and ponder that before replying too quickly.

There is an OP on the first page of DU that demonstrates how US Senators are representing the wealthiest constituents at the expense of everyone else. Meanwhile the Middle Eastern nations will naturally choose religion to be incorporated into their politics. Religion guides their everyday lives and it can be argued that religious guided politics represents their collective view better than wealth guided politics represent our own collective view.

Notice I qualified the statement with "it can be argued."

I'm not sure what to think, but on a global scale, Democracy appears to be failing miserably. Don't confuse this claim with the notion that I do not embrace Democracy. Indeed, my complaint is that there is not enough democratic representation, not that we should jettison Democracy because it is not working. It obviously is not working in it's current form though.

Much would be solved if we embraced the document titled "The Constitution of the United States" in the spirit of which it was originally intended. The further we deviate from the spirit of that document, the more it appears that our Democracy is failing us. Further, as technology advances, the living document is constructed to reflect the change in times. The document has not been adequately maintained to do that, leaving much obscure interpretation up to the Supreme Court. Interpretation that was beyond the technical grasp of those that wrote it. This is why I emphasize "the spirit" of which it was intended, as some modernization of the Constitution appears to be in order, but that "spirit" must be in the center of such a process.

[Supersedeas]

10. these questions have reasonable merit with me too

[geek tragedy]

11. Pretty much what's happened.

Some countries making uneven progress, others descending into chaos with no good options.

There's no real democratic culture in that part of the world (outside of Israel, and even Israel is going in the wrong direction towards apartheid), and there's no reason to think there will be one in our lifetimes.