Have you ever seen a body without a head, or vice-versa?

[1-Old-Man]

If you have never seen a person blown to bits don't be in such a fucking rush to war. I can assure you that those of us who have had to pick up those headless bodies and put them in bags do not often argue hard for the opportunity to do it again.

People watch TV and think they know what war is. A bunch of blow-hard fucking idiots is all they are.

[Bay Boy]

1. So do nothing because

war is hell?

[1-Old-Man]

3. Do nothing because nothing has been done to us.

Go back to your TV.

[Bay Boy]

6. So dismembered bodies are ok but only if...

...something has been done to us?

That would seem to be a tea party stance.

[1-Old-Man]

11. Silly silly child ....

Yes, if it is us who is causing the dismemberment it would be good if we at least had the excuse that something had been done to us first. But in the absence of an offense to us just what right do we have to blow anyone into teeny weeny little parts? None.

[daleanime]

102. Sir,

Nicely handled. Good sense of restraint.

[loli phabay]

111. would you have the same stance if you see a stranger getting beat in the street

Afterall it not being done to you or someone you know. That aside i dont think there are any good guys either side of this civil war, but there are a hell of a lot of innocents caught in the middle.

[SammyWinstonJack]

39. ...

[MyNameGoesHere]

45. Oh horse poop

That is a thinking reasoning persons stance. The doctrine of world dictator and punisher extraordinaire has not and never will work.
We have to stop being what we despise.

[Scuba]

81. +1

[Enthusiast]

55. A big PLUS ONE! nt

[darkangel218]

76. The innocent Sirian people need our help.

We spend millions on bases all over the world.

How much do you think it will cost us?? Not that much I bet. We are already burning the budget allocated to military each year.

Siria is not troops on ground.

If we take out their air force, at least they won't be able to drop napalm bombs on innocent children. Do you care at all about the genocide victims??

[atreides1]

107. Millions of Americans need help as well!

Each cruise missile costs 1.45 million to build, not multiply that by 100...because that's approximately how many will have to be expended initially...and then it's very likely that a second strike will have to take place because not all of those missiles will take out their assigned targets with the first strike!

And each cruise missile carries a 1000 pound warhead...how many innocent Syrians do you think will be killed?

Cruise missiles can only take out aircraft on the ground, what about artillery and tanks? By the way those cruise missiles will also end up killing innocent children...but I guess those innocent children dying will be acceptable?

One other thing, if the rebels would quit fighting in residential neighborhoods...that just might lower the civilian death rate...something that everyone seems to have forgotten is that these brave rebels are themselves putting those innocent children you care so much about in danger!

And as for genocide, you might want to look up what the word means before you go making accusations!!!

[darkangel218]

108. The missles are already paid for,

And not having an intervention in Syria won't put any money back in our federal budget.

Its all spoken for, war or peace.

[Dash87]

119. On the contrary, with a new war, more contractors are hired.

These contractors build things like more missiles to replace the ones that are dropped. Without a war going on, these contractors wouldn't be necessary, and the government wouldn't spend money on them.

[darkangel218]

124. Its not going to be a full blowm war.

No troops on ground, no invasion.

Just a quick airstrike to take down military capabilities.

[Unknown Beatle]

127. By your reasoning,

If there was a quick airstrike against the US to take down military capabilities, would that be considered an invasion? An act of war? Would it be full blown war?

If the US does it against another country, it's okay, but if another country does it against the US, then it's war.

BULLSHIT!

[darkangel218]

133. So everything is rethoric to you?

I'm just trying to understand. What do you propose, turning a blind eye and hope they will come around and change their mind about murdering their own innocent people?

[Dash87]

136. That's the intent, but things never go exactly as planned.

That's also not considering the blowback our bombing would cause.

[Dash87]

118. I hate to tell you that the Syrian rebels aren't "the innocent Syrian people."

If we wanted to help "the innocent Syrian people," we would drop supplies, not bombs. We're helping madmen and fundamentalists that are just as bad as Assad, and have as much of an urge to torment the Syrian people as Assad does.

What do both sides have in common? They could care less about the Syrian people. The Pentagon could care less about them too.

[darkangel218]

125. Really?

What were the thousands of children who were killed guilty of?
And how is dropping supplies going to protect them from gasses and inciderary bombs??

[Dash87]

135. Nothing, but we're helping one of the sides that has been actively killing them.

Our bombs will no doubt kill many children as well.

[Logical]

4. LOL, once again, where do you draw the line. WTF. n-t

[1-Old-Man]

7. Easy question to answer - I draw the line on this side of the Atlantic.

[Logical]

10. I agree with you 100%. Good line. I can't wait to hear from Bay Boy! n-t

[Bay Boy]

13. I haven't expressed a preference...

...just playing devil's advocate.

[rhett o rick]

36. It's easy to question others decisions when you dont make any yourself. nm

[Larry Ogg]

97. At the core of every failed society you will always find the devil advocate. n/t

[Bay Boy]

114. I'm devastated to know that I am...

...at the core of this particular failed society. That is an awful burden to carry.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

120. Soooo....Hitler?

He didn't do anything to us either, right?

[1-Old-Man]

128. I take it you read no history at all

Nazi Germany, presumably because of it pact with Japan, declared war on us immediately after the attack at Pearl Harbor. And while I'm not sure about this, and could look it up easily if I cared to, I believe that Hitler's Germany actually declared war on us before we declared it on Japan. Of course with the declaration of war by Germany on us it immediately freed the German Navy to target our flagged ships at sea as well as all men of war.

Soooo .... Hitler.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

134. Nice dodge

I know history, and so do you, to avoid answering the question.

Forget about how it actually played out in real life. If Hitler and Germany were conducting exterminations of Jews and others as they swept through other countries, are you saying that as long as they didn't bother us, you'd leave them alone?

[1-Old-Man]

139. Nope, I'm saying your analogy is garbage.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

149. Great job, Mr Lindbergh

Last edited Mon Sep 2, 2013, 02:13 PM - Edit history (2)

Actually, THAT'S a bad analogy, because at least Lindbergh would give a definite yes or no here.

[malaise]

29. +1,000 n/t

[George II]

44. The line used to be drawn at Vesey Street

[MyNameGoesHere]

46. Children draw lines and dare people to crosss them. It is a game. eom

[NuclearDem]

17. "War is hell" is a stupid fucking cop out.

The rest of the international community knows that, and that's why there are laws surrounding war.

Like ones about wars of aggression. The ones we so fragrantly violate because our populace at large throws that phrase around without having the slightest fucking clue about why it came to be in the first place.

[1-Old-Man]

28. What you call a 'cop out' I call experience. You got any of that?

I see very few combat veterans who after the experience call for more wars. And by the way, this is a civil war going on in Syria, it is not a war of aggression. No other nation in the international community has been harmed by Syria at all.

[NuclearDem]

31. Sorry, don't think I meant what you thought I did.

I'm a combat vet, Korengal Valley 2011. I've simply seen the phrase "war is hell" coopted by armchair generals to deceive people into believing they understand the horrors of war even while they're pushing for more of it. It's become a trite phrase in the US, and I strongly doubt a lot of the keyboard commandos who use it could stomach seeing some person's face blown off or melted off by white phosphorous.

Sorry for any misunderstanding.

[1-Old-Man]

35. It is I who owe you an apology

I'm sorry. Please accept my apology for misunderstanding your meaning. My bad.

[NuclearDem]

37. No worries, it happens.

[Schema Thing]

51. wow, you where over there just 2 years ago? Welcome home.

Does that seem like a lifetime, or just yesterday?

when did you leave the Korengal Valley for home?

[loli phabay]

112. i have always thought war is hell, but sometimes there are things worse

Always felt it was a duty to step between the guys doing the killing and the innocents that get caught up in it. Not sure what the answer is in syria but i know if i lived there i would want someone to do something.

[ashling]

121. There seems to be a lot of that going around

(Not intended to be a disparaging comment toward you) Much of the time throughout this thread, it has been difficult to know who is saying what.

[LWolf]

20. False dilemma. nt

[backscatter712]

21. Because blowing shit up won't solve this problem. n/t

[rhett o rick]

32. If you are trying to make a point you have failed. Maybe you should make a statement

instead of using those silly questions.

[avebury]

57. If you want to bomb someone you must first be 1000%

sure that you are bombing the right person(s). The problem with Syria is I am not sure that we know, without a shred of doubt, who is the party responsible for the attack. The Middle East is a convoluted place and does not function in the same way that western countries operate. Call my skeptic but I wouldn't be surprised if there was a faction that has been manipulating the whole situation for their personal gain and not in a way that actually benefits the people on the streets of Syria or Americans. We have been conned way too many times in the past into action that proved unwise in the long run. Look at the thousands and thousands of Iraqi civilians that lost their lives during Bush Jr.'s war.

[delrem]

64. A name that keeps popping up, now, yesterday, 10 yrs 20 yrs ago...

Is the killer from the house of al-Saud nicknamed "Bandar Bush".

[Auntie Bush]

90. That's just what I was going to post! This whole thing has to do with

getting a pipeline for oil from Russia, across Syria to the Aegean Sea. I may have to route wrong but this whole war is due to a stinking pipeline.

[sabrina 1]

68. Do nothing about what? Has this country been attacked, threatened even, have we

even been called any names all the way from Syria? Why would we go to war in Syria? Why did we go to Iraq, six thousand soldiers died for a lie there. And there were no WMDs which we knew, but apparently our government is so stupid they didn't know, despite all the expert advice they ignored.

Are YOU going to go?

[morningfog]

71. War is not the only thing.

No going to war != doing nothing.

[Hydra]

2. Satan's little helpers

They know they are paving the way for devastation and misery, but it's profitable to them.

All it costs is your soul.

[kelliekat44]

5. I saw Breaking Bad and that was enough for me seeing half a face walking around. nt

[Ruby the Liberal]

15. That was my first thought

The head on the turtle.

Just discovered that series a month ago and have been getting caught up on Netflix. That was a horrifying scene.

[Skittles]

8. my mum was a WWII survivor

she felt the same way when she heard people casually talking like "we should bomb them" - she said they would never say that if they had ever experienced bomb drops

[malaise]

33. My parents always said that

They lived it

[Skittles]

65. my dad was a depression survivor

I was raised by people who didn't just think bad things could happen - they knew they could

[malaise]

66. My mother's approach to life was that of someone who lived WW2

We always had a kitchen garden, never over ate, always shared with neighbors and and always preserved fruit - no one made pineapple or cherry jam like my mom.
Mom was in Europe and England for much longer than dad - she knew war first hand.

[demwing]

9. I have, in 1970. A small aircraft

crashed into a neighborhood house when I was about 7. I ran the few block to see, and distinctly remember walking up on a dismembered, burned hand as I approached the crash.

The smell was horrible, but the crash site was a nightmare. The fire department was there, and I watched as people in uniforms pulled several body parts out of the rubble. I think there were two airplane passengers, and one man who lived in the house. I saw a body come out of the plane with no head (and had nightmares for a good year about the head being lost somewhere down the street)

That's when my dad ran up and got me the hell outta there.

[HardTimes99]

12. Bravo! About time someone said it bluntly. Again, bravo! - nt

[NuclearDem]

14. But if we dare show the pictures or video, people might get upset.

And of course, we can't have people upset about war. Bad for profits.

[sabrina 1]

69. Yes, I don't understand that. If you support these wars, you damn well should be

willing to look at what you are supporting.

The victims don't get any graphic warning.

[Link Speed]

16. Quite a few

But the faceless ones are the ones that still wake me up, 40+ years later.

[1-Old-Man]

19. The picture that has been in my mind for half a century was similar

Only the one I remember the most was cut in half at about belly-button level. His (he was a very young man) intestines were neatly piled where his lap should have been. I have no idea where the rest of him was. You know what part of that one sticks with me the most? It was the flies.

[Link Speed]

22. I hear them in my dreams

You and I have heard and seen the same things.

I live in Wine Country and the flies are cloud-like during Crush (harvest) - which is just starting.

You know the rest...

[Egalitarian Thug]

18. Yes. Americans watch TV and think it's real all the time. Idiots watch(ed?) CSI

and believed that LVPD spent hundreds of thousands of dollars investigating the death of every hooker that shows up in a parking garage. They believe that criminals get caught and the guilty are convicted.

Americans have become the dumbest 'advanced' nation on earth, and TV is the biggest single reason.

[Mr.Bill]

25. TV may be the biggest reason,

But the internet is a close second.

[Egalitarian Thug]

38. Sorry Mr. Bill, you have to look at the numbers, the world wide web still doesn't

even enter the same league as TV. TV is still far and away, hands down the greatest producer of dumbshits on earth. If you really wanted to pick a second place, I'd recommend religion.

[SammyWinstonJack]

40. I'd place religion in first place.

[Egalitarian Thug]

49. Yeah, I might agree with that. We'd have to consider length of exposure, gross numbers of people

exposed, results achieved, etc. Yes, a very good argument could be made...

[Little Star]

73. I'd place Protecting America's interests in there some where. USA, USA USA.......

We have to go to war because of fear and to protect our own interests. The public laps that shit up like a kitten laps up a bowl of milk. The source of that propaganda doesn't really matter all that much be it TV, Internet or Print.

edit to add: We need to become energy independent, until that happens wars will continue. But TPTB don't want that until they have squeezed every last penny from Mid-eastern oil.

[heaven05]

27. +10000

[HardTimes99]

54. Ronald Reagan runs a very close second to TV, imho :) - nt

[Egalitarian Thug]

63. And he was, himself, a product of TV. Before he found his niche as a full-time

carnival barker for GM, his career as an actor was over. He was almost universally hated in the business because of the combination of his infamous laziness and unprofessionalism, coupled with his singular inability to remember his lines and lacklustre box office draw.

But give him a soundbyte and 30 - 60 seconds, and he is golden, even if he did need a cue card to get the lines out in the right order.

[heaven05]

23. thank you

you're 100% percent correct on the armchair warriors.

[Mr.Bill]

24. I've seen a guy with about an inch or two missing from the top of his head.

It was at a car accident, he had gone into the windshield. I could see his brains and he was conscious and talking to me. He died soon after.

[blue14u]

26. I'm shocked that

Last edited Sat Aug 31, 2013, 06:38 PM - Edit history (1)

there are so many here that sound like they are ok with
America blowing children up, but chemical use to kill is not ok!

Did American's forget we use chemicals in war too?

Either way you slice it, war is war.
Suffering, and a slow death due to bleeding out, or choking to
death are both horrifying.

This is more about profit margins for the pushers of this
war than children being killed.
Have we not learned anything from history?
Did you forget Obama is surrounded by his chosen republican's?

Thank you 1-Old-Man... Thank you for pointing this out.

[unhappycamper]

80. "This is more about profit margins for the pushers of this war than children being killed. "

Mark Felt once said "Follow the money."

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/opinion-la/la-ol-syria-military-hardware-cost-esimates-20130829,0,1077073.story

[blue14u]

141. Wish I had

a nickel for every time I repeated that statement, or posted it!! Apparently

Mark Felt is a very wise man.

"Follow the money".. it never gets to old to repeat, and we

as voters need to hear it everyday..

ps...I like your handle!

[RC]

94. I don't get that either.

there are so many here that sound like they are ok with
America blowing children up, but chemical use to kill is not ok!

All I can think of were they were in some talking points at one time.
"War is good, kill some 'Not us', read 'brown people'." Translation: The are not fully human, because they live and think differently, making it OK to thin the herd.
"They used Chemical Weapons on our allies, therefore Chemical Weapons are bad".

Dead is dead. It is all bad. Especially for those innocents killed just for being there.

[dipsydoodle]

30. If you want to get ahead get a hat.

Or so they used to say.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

34. Haven't heard too much from the "We must fight them over there" crowd.

[pasto76]

43. because even the tea party isnt that stupid

this has nothing to do with 'defending amerika', 'spreading freedom', or eliminating 'evil doers'. trying to stop the use of chemical weapons, and the machine that uses them, is not a bad idea.

blah blah blah, military industrial complex blah blah. As the OP notes, dont worry, most of you wont have to get off your couch.

Doing nothing is sometimes as evil as anything. Great care and consideration must be used. War should be the sole option left. Violence Begets violence. Watching defenseless people die is a moral obscenity.

All truths. Not easy to reconcile.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

47. In Washington the choice is between making Red State war production or making Obama appear weak.

[RebelOne]

41. When I was a young child living on Miami Beach,

my mother took me to the beach. She saw a round object in the ocean water and thought it was a ball and told me to go and get it. I did and it was not a ball but a man's head and no body. We found out later that it was a Russian sailor who had jumped ship. Never found out what happened to the body, but it was possible that sharks got him.

[treestar]

42. No

Never seem chemical weapons victims either.

[Chaco Dundee]

48. thank you

It's extra special if it is a friend you are picking up and have to put his guts back so all what's left of him makes it home.the absolutely worst are the cildren you don't even know.

[alcina]

50. This discussion reminds me ...

of a poem I came across while studying PTSD in combat vets. My dad had some pretty bad stories that he shared later in life, and he said this poem really summed it up for him:

Wheat fell headless in the field
Till Death did reap enough.
We seek to bury the revealed
No earth is deep enough.
You cannot wash the stains from minds
No one can weep enough.
Nor shut the past behind the blinds
No night has sleep enough.

(For those interested, the source for the poem can be found at http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA319601)

[pinboy3niner]

67. Wow--awesome poem!

Thanks for posting it and the link. I'm going to pass it on to a friend who is a counselor at the local Vet Center.

And welcome to DU, alcina!

[alcina]

150. Re: "Awesome poem"

Yes, I agree. It helps me understand -- as much as is possible -- the depth of pain that survivors continue to experience. The article is very interesting, as well, not the least because it contradicts the claims made by many doctors that PTSD in soldiers is a result of pre-existing mental health issues.

Thank you for the welcome, btw. I've been lurking for some time, but I rarely post.

[CrispyQ]

96. That is very moving.

Thank you for sharing.

[awoke_in_2003]

52. Lots of armchair warriors here at work...

we have a bunch of Navy and Air Force vets here banging the war drum. It is strange how our two Marine combat vets never join in with them.

[Rebellious Republican]

74. Not this Navy Vet! Not all sailors and airmen sit on the sidelines, not all soldiers and marines

Are in the middle of the shit.

I was a part of a UN peace keeping force in Beirut, 1983.

The Beirut Barracks Bombings (October 23, 1983 in Beirut, Lebanon) occurred during the Lebanese Civil War, when two truck bombs struck separate buildings housing United States and French military forces—members of the Multinational Force (MNF) in Lebanon—killing 299 American and French servicemen. An obscure group calling itself 'Islamic Jihad' claimed responsibility for the bombing.[1]
Suicide bombers detonated each of the truck bombs. In the attack on the building serving as a barracks for the 1st Battalion 8th Marines (Battalion Landing Team - BLT 1/8), the death toll was 241 American servicemen: 220 Marines, 18 sailors and three soldiers, along with 60 Americans injured, representing the deadliest single-day death toll for the United States Marine Corps since World War II's Battle of Iwo Jima, the deadliest single-day death toll for the United States military since the first day of the Vietnam War's Tet Offensive, and the deadliest single attack on Americans overseas since World War II.[2] In addition, the building's elderly Lebanese custodian was killed in the first blast.[3] The explosives used were equivalent to 9,525 kg (21,000 pounds) of TNT.[4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_Beirut_barracks_bombing

[awoke_in_2003]

115. Several have responded to my post...

I just want to say I do not think all Navy and AF vets are banging the war drums. I am just saying that the ones I work with are. Of course, they are republicans in Texas, too, so that helps.

[Rebellious Republican]

116. Thanks!

[usmc03]

83. Some of the worst chickenhawks

come from non-combat arms military, the pogues and desk jockeys. The ones that, when talking to those that are or were, preface their service with "I would have gone grunt, but..."

Always a qualifier, always an excuse.

[itsrobert]

86. Air Force retired

and I am not banging the war drum.

[Peacetrain]

53. Thankfully no

and sorry you had to endure that.

[unblock]

56. i saw an autopsy for my high school "career day".

it was fucking awesome!

[hobbit709]

84. It's not the pieces that haunt my dreams. It's the smells.

[Enthusiast]

58. Kicked and Recommended.

Militarism and war should never be the main focus of any nation.

[fadedrose]

77. +++

[another_liberal]

59. Thank you, sir.

An injection of first-hand, eyewitness testimony is invaluable at times like these.

[iamthebandfanman]

60. i have

because there are tons of videos on youtube of the conflict in Syria.
I unfortunately now know what a little kid gasping for air while choking on his closing throat looks like too.


again, American soldiers wouldn't have been on the ground.


thanks for your service tho.

[mick063]

61. Ever seen the front page of a newspaper from Central America?

Yes, I have seen a headless body in the display window of a newspaper vending machine. Never seen such a thing from a US newspaper.

[Maedhros]

62. What strikes me as incredibly unrealistic

is the notion that we can wave some kind of magical cruise-missile wand and make atrocities disappear.

The idea is that if we fail to launch 100+ cruise missiles on Syria then we are guaranteeing that thousands of chemical weapon victims will result. How can one reach that conclusion? Assuming that more attacks are imminent, we might be able to prevent them by sending in troops and capturing the stockpiles. Maybe. Trying to take out the stockpiles with missile strikes runs a huge risk of resulting in a horrific disaster.

Military intervention in Syria is going to result in a LOT of civilian casualties:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/12/world/middleeast/us-syria-intervention-would-be-risky-pentagon-officials-say.html?pagewanted=all

Defense and intelligence officials say that Syria’s integrated air defenses — a combination of thousands of surface-to-air missiles, radars and antiaircraft guns — are not only more advanced than those in Libya, they are also arrayed in densely populated areas on the country’s western border, meaning that even with precision bombing, civilians nearby would probably be killed.

“There would be some severe collateral damage going after those areas,” Mr. Panetta said last week.

And if we decapitate the Assad regime, Syria will descend into chaos. What happens to the chemical weapons stockpiles, considered the largest in the world? Might they fall into the hands of the insurgents? What will they do with them?

“I’m not saying it’s a fait accompli that if they’re left unsecured, automatically someone can grab them and use them,” General Mattis said. “They may end up frying themselves. But I think that it’s going to take an international effort when Assad falls, and he will fall, in order to secure these weapons.”

Some kind of "limited strike" will let the U.S. Military puff up its chest and do a little touchdown dance, but it has the capacity to make things much worse.

[Arcanetrance]

70. I've never had the experience of war and won't push for it

My father is a Vietnam vet and I remember the day I told him I was going to enlist the tears the pleading and begging me not to. And than the tears of joy he cried when I was rejected from enlisting due to medical issues. That alone convinced me that sending anyone to kill another human and try to live with that decision is impossible.

[bluedeathray]

72. Hell yes! The first 8 years of the 21st century

In the White House. Body...no head.

[Rebellious Republican]

75. K&R

[Carolina]

78. Touche, 1-Old-Man

Surgical strikes are a figment of Americans' video game playing mentality

[Jasana]

79. A +1 and K&R for you.

You tell them 1-Old-Man. Tell them what you've seen and assure them that they are idiots... because they are.

I was raised by my grandparents. Grandpa fought in WWII and even 50 years later there were days when he got so dark and quiet. When I was older I finally got him to tell me his stories. They weren't pretty and I found myself wondering how he had stayed sane all those years.

I think maybe becoming a firefighter helped him. Stressful job? Yes, but he got to save lives and property instead of destroy them.

[Scuba]

82. This Viet vet despises the chicken hawks and other war mongers. Do they really think ....

... that our intervention will make things better? If so, they are fools.

[Le Taz Hot]

85. No, and if I ever did

I would never recover from it. Unless we, the United State of America, are being DIRECTLY attacked, war is NEVER the answer.

[NealK]

87. You actually saw that?

OMG!

[MADem]

88. Yes, I've seen pieces of people strewn across the street, in a most upsetting fashion.

What's worse is they were not strangers to me.

Don't they look so much "nicer" when they're killed, neatly, with sarin gas?

That was in its most extreme form -- for those who might be unclear.

No one is advocating "going to war."

This is a limited, punitive strike to tell al-Assad, "Don't use that shit any more, or we'll slap you again. Hard."

He needs his "stuff" to fight his war. He won't have it--his helos, his airfields, his goodies, in order to reduce his ability to prosecute his battles.

[ronnie624]

138. We lack the moral legitimacy to punish anyone.

Our government's crimes are far worse than those of any currently existing regime.

Also, we risk killing even more civilians with our attacks.

It's really just one more of many examples of US interventionism.

[MADem]

140. Oh, please, that's a pantload.

Slaughtering children in their beds is WRONG. Speaking up, saying so, and punishing anyone who does such a thing is the right thing to do.

We don't "risk killing even more civilians" with proper targeting. You think "more civilians" will be aboard, say, al Assad's Presidential jet in its hanger, or his presidential helicopter? How about in the middle of his airfields?

Turn away, ignore this affront, this crime against humanity, and all you do is embolden assholes and have even more blood on your hands.

[ronnie624]

143. The US government

has never intervened in another country to save children or to avenge their deaths. Not even once. On the contrary, US interventionism is responsible for dead children in numbers so great, it would be impossible to count them. There are ALWAYS strategic and economic reasons for US meddling.

I think your post is nonsense.

[MADem]

144. Well, again, you're wrong. Right off the top of my head, this came to mind

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Airlift#The_start_of_the_Berlin_Airlift

A lot of little kids would have died of hunger if the US didn't intervene, there.

And then there's this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Babylift

Operation Babylift was the name given to the mass evacuation of children from South Vietnam to the United States and other countries (including Australia, France, and Canada) at the end of the Vietnam War (see also the Fall of Saigon), from April 3–26, 1975. By the final American flight out of South Vietnam, over 3,300 infants and children had been evacuated, although the actual number has been variously reported.[1][2][3][4] Along with Operation New Life, over 110,000 refugees were evacuated from South Vietnam at the end of the Vietnam War. Thousands of children were airlifted from Vietnam and adopted by families around the world.

And this:

Operation Fluid Drive was a non-combatant evacuation operation led by the United States to evacuate American citizens and other foreign nationals from Beirut, Lebanon, during the Lebanese Civil War.[1] On 20 June 1976, the USS Spiegel Grove transported 110 Americans and 157 nationals of other countries from Lebanon to Piraeus, Greece.[2] On 27 July, 300 additional persons, including 155 Americans, were evacuated to Piraeus.[3] The cruiser USS Little Rock was present off the Lebanese coast during both evacuations.[4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Fluid_Drive

And this: http://www.euronews.com/2010/02/02/us-military-resumes-haiti-evacuation-flights/

The American military is once again flying badly-injured victims of Haiti’s earthquake to the United States for treatment.

And this:

UTAPAO, Thailand — The U.S. military’s support of humanitarian relief efforts in South Asia continues to grow, with more than 16,500 troops converging on the region to lend a hand.

http://www.military.com/NewContent/0,13190,SS_011005_Tsunami,00.html

There are many other examples, as well.

but hey, don't let complete, unfettered, unembarrassed absence of fact stop you. "Not even once!"

What you think about my post, I know about yours.

[ronnie624]

145. You should be embarrassed by your irony laden mess of a post.

There's no surprise in your inability to see it.

[MADem]

146. Well, anyone reading this exchange knows who came up short on facts.

And it wasn't me.

But thanks for illustrating precisely where your head is at when it comes to those pesky things called facts!

[Jackpine Radical]

89. Here is something I once wrote as a part of my attempts to put myself togather

after Vietnam. I have never exposed it publicly before, but do so now, at significant emotional cost to me, in hopes that it will do some good.

One of my most disturbing memories—for some reason more vivid in my mind as I write this than the battlefield carnage I had seen—resulted from seeing the aftermath of a civilian “Lambro” that had run across a powerful land mine that had been placed under Highway 1 just outside the gates of LZ Uplift.

The vehicle had been overloaded with many civilian men, women and children, and the explosion scattered fragments of the machine and of the human bodies for several yards in all directions. I still see images of tattered body parts lying about on the ground and hanging on the concertina wire. I didn’t see the event, just the aftermath, but what I saw there haunts me to this day.

[Rebellious Republican]

92. I didn’t see the event, just the aftermath, but what I saw there haunts me to this day.

That was me in "83". Thanks for sharing JP.

[Rebellious Republican]

93. I shared this some time back, still brings tears to my eyes to this day.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4442557

[CrispyQ]

100. Thank you for sharing.

Be sure to read post #50. http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023571715#post50

[Rebellious Republican]

106. I did read it, that post inspired me to share this.

Hope this obscure post helps with your counselor friend.

[judesedit]

91. Amen

[Rebellious Republican]

95. I just shared this link with Jackpine Radical, however I want to share this with all.

An an anonymous tribute from a Navy Corpman from Beirut "83"

The following is from a corpsman ("Doc&quot in Beirut who wishes to remain anonymous:


I was thinking...The way Ive learned to deal with Beruit is through my poetry. I've been told by friends that I should get them published, however the poems are my pain on paper... things I couldn't share with strangers. Now as I sit thinking about it all, I think Id like to share it with my brothers who were there.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For Gods sake____
Let us sit upon the grass
and tell sad storys,
about the death
of brave young kings.

For they shall never reign____
Eyes forever closed...
Inside caskets rusted shut.
Their only life__
is our remembrance.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Coming Home
Change will come,
Change is here.
Love fades out,
Then reappears.
Now my water has turned
to wine and these
thoughts I have I now claim
as mine..
I'm coming home.

Change has been,
change will be,
time will tell,
Then time will ease.

My curtain has been drawn
and my heart can go to where
my heart does belong
I'm going home.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And I will have to be braver now,
than I have ever been.
And I will have to be stronger now,
Than I ever was before.
And I will have to be more loyal now,
Than I have ever been.

A warriors heart will never change...
Only its direction..
Only its focus.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I could see the man
I was yet to become..
And the man that was not to be..

But only with the eyes
of the man who
is.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Some things are better
left unsaid,

But they turn me inside
out,
And I can barely speak
of them,
Their only recourse,
Is to visit me...While I sleep.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd give anything to silence those sounds...
the crying out,
the screams,
the choppers,
I hear it as if its happening
now..

Today I woke to the sound of a chopper in flight__
and I was back,
in Beruit again.
All the sounds mixed in...
Then I heard a man crying for his mother
and I started my day
sobbing.

I wonder if he ever made it home to his mother.
I sometimes wonder if anybody got home..
Anybody?
Am I alone?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I saw J.P today hitchhiking...
(Like he ever would have!)
(was he going home?)
Yet there he was, for a fraction of a second..
(asking?)
No smile, no frown, no recognition..
no eye contact.
(like a stranger, which he was)
I wonder if he knew I did all I could?
(I wonder if I did?)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I was like a god...
I could do anything.
I could keep a man alive...
(Or so I thought.)
I was the corpsman...
I had to.
And now...
What compares?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The only ones for who the war is over,
are those who died fighting it.
For the rest of us it will always be,
just a nightmare away.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A man should live everyday,
as if it were a preflight check.
He has to ask himself every morning
"am I ready for liftoff?"
And if not...
Find the strength to go
anyway.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How can another know...?
The storys, untold by me?
How could another understand...?
The chaos? The terror?
The destruction of ourselves?
I should not have had to be there.
I should not be the one to explain...
I am the one who is owed an explaination...
And that will never happen.

http://www.beirut-memorial.org/theatre/docpoems.html

[Coyotl]

98. I saw a photo of a US Marine holding the head of a Nicaraguan he killed.

It was gruesome.

[Rebellious Republican]

103. Here are a couple that you probably have not seen of Marines.

[CrispyQ]

99. Commit an atrocity to avenge an atrocity.

They will say anything to justify their war so they can stick their snouts into the trough. We should demand to see every Congress person's stock portfolio. The Prez's too.

[rock]

101. You have inadvertently made a funny in a pretty serious discussion

"Vice versa" in this context would mean "or has a body without a head seen you?"

[arely staircase]

113. i noticed that too, but didn't want to comment nt

[1-Old-Man]

129. I wish I had realized that was what I was saying

By god, you're right. Sorry about that.

Actually the only reason I put that little part in there is because I knew if I had said 'have you ever seen a person with their head blown off' or something similarly specific that it would invite a bunch of silly responses. So I wanted to broaden the field of carnage to be considered and that seemed like the best way of saying it to do that.

I honestly do wish that I had a better command of the language so that I wouldn't make mistakes like that.

[rock]

147. It's OK

Every one knows what you meant.

[BOG PERSON]

104. i saw - with my own eyes -

a snuff movie on youtube. it changed me forever. i still get flashbacks.

[actslikeacarrot]

105. k + r n/t

[felix_numinous]

109. Working in hospitals

and trauma rooms showed another side of pain and loss,life and death most other people I knew weren't aware of on a daily basis, and I never could get into realistic violence or horror.. as entertainment.

After smelling blood, hearing real screams-- the idea of war is something tangible, not abstract.

I see a lot if people yammering about bomb this bomb that who are either clueless, lack empathy or have been emotionally fractured themselves.

Anger management is all about being able to DELAY knee jerk reactions, it is about learning how to recognize the fight or flight reaction in yourself and others, so that you can get yourself out of it long enough to hesitate with a hostile response.

Fight or flight shunts blood into the extremities and lower (reptilian) brain--and AWAY from the trunk and frontal lobes---------->which means AWAY from our HEARTS and MINDS. Good for dodging bullets, bad for negotiating peace (or posting on DU )

This is a much needed discussion, thank you all for sharing.

Peace~~~Felix

[Douglas Carpenter]

110. amen

[Dash87]

117. I think most of the nation thinks war is like "Call of Duty" or John Wayne movies.

That's the very reason that the Pentagon tries to censor anything that will give the public a true sense of what war was like. If they really did have that sense, we would never go on an offensive war again.

[The Wizard]

122. The vast majority

have no skin in the game, never had, never will. They see war a sporting event or video game. Experience tells me it's dirty, hard, brutal and unforgiving. All the participants are losers. The winners are the war profiteers / defense contractors.

[alarimer]

123. It also won't solve the problem

And will likely make things worse, not better. As we should also know by now. But somehow we haven't learned the Iraq lesson YET after all these years.

[SummerSnow]

126. I worked at the morgue a long time ago...can't begin to tell you the things I saw. NYC

[wtmusic]

130. Have you ever seen a victim of a neurological gas attack?

[1-Old-Man]

131. No, and I'm fairly certain that very few other people have either - but the point is moot

You see, our President will not gas Syria, he will bomb it. And it is the result of bombing that my posting is about, not the use of gas. Gas does not blow off heads, or arms, or legs, or hands, or feet, or any of those other parts that are hard to identify. I'd be happy to read your posting about your experience with the victims of gassing though as I was only relating my experience with the victims of high explosives, which seemed to me to be germane to the topic at hand. If I had been talking about a gassing I would have been talking out my ass (having had no real experience with it), which is something I try not to do too much.

[wtmusic]

132. Without intervention, it's likely Assad will use gas again

so the point isn't moot at all.

People who are gassed are just as dead as people who are blown to bits - and they probably suffer more. Assad's gas arsenal can be destroyed with fewer victims than one of his gas attacks (if reports are to be believed).

[Dash87]

137. Assad's gas cannot be destroyed without deploying ground troops or a long drawn-out operation.

A lot of it is probably hidden in secret underground bunkers.

[Adrahil]

142. Yes, I have.

And worse things.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

148. What the hawks aren't getting is that BOTH SIDES are bad guys

As far as the majority of Syrians are concerned, the question, "Would you prefer to live under Assad or under the rebels" is probably something like "Would you rather be shot or hanged?"

And one of the posters above was correct. Getting rid of chemical weapons would require ground troops.

Furthermore, the U.S., having used phosphorus and depleted uranium in Iraq, has no moral basis for criticizing the use of chemical weapons.

This is all about an oil pipeline, which the Russians want to build through Syria.